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June 4, 2011 by beerogre
MiniWargaming have posted a very well reasoned open letter to the bosses at GW.
What do you think guys?
3rd times a charm…nice find to all three of you
I think this is the argument we can all point to and say yes, this is how we feel. I like the minis and the rules (for the most part), but the way they treat the customers really needs changing. This is a good example of how to try and get them to listen.
Thats some good points, I hope GW listens, but GW generally doesn’t :/
I see a thin smile forming on GW’s collective faces… and then they’ll move on. And so will you.
Best miniatures…. my backside!
Yeah I’ll move on alright.. possibly to a cheaper, less arrogant and less deluded company but first I want to see how they handle this.
Jeez. Just quit the damn evil empire, fer gadz! We have SO many BETTER alternatives today, it’s not like when I started on the hobby some 20 years ago. GW may be making better miniatures today than back then (less inspired, but technically better, certainly), but in EVERY other way their products are PANTS, and their business strategy just underlines it. I guess from an indie retailer perspective that vid makes sense, but it doesn’t really ‘do’ anything for me. Why should I spend time on waiting for, hoping for, pleading with GW when I have already decided I will not settle for their shoddy and horribly overpriced products and moved on? There is simply much better fun to be had with the products of other companies (companies who approach me as a hobbyist and paying customer, not as a moron, I should say). GW stopped being about the hobby a long time ago, in my opinion. I am a hobbyist. So I can only HOPE they will continue to do stuff that diminishes their market shares.
Sadly talk is cheap…GW will change when bank balance and stock market makes them have to change their ways. Excellent post pointing out issue but I feel hobby will pay attention but GW might not.
We are living in interesting times – GW hopefully will change but in fanboys keep being sheep why should they bother.
Stolen quote from utube comments (game of thrones reference i think) - A lion doesnt concern itself with the opinion of sheep
spot on with the fanboys observation.
i really do like these guys and that was a geniune statement from them they did an unboxing of the resin stuff last week and really tried to find all the best points to them its sad to think all these fans of games workshop are having such a bad time however mantic are the ones to watch in my opinion just look at the cost to get started there and if the sifi range continues in the same dramatic format then the skys the limit for mantic.
I like Mantic but they are still a very young company that owes BOW a great deal for helping promote their product. Privateer Press has a head start on Mantic but are falling behind when it comes to keeping their products on the shelves.
GW is currently far ahead of both these guys but the next few financial reports will shed better light on the recent decisions they have made.
I very much doubt Mantic are making that much profit, their prices are far too low currently. But I think their project is a long term one, and that the money they do make will be invested in bringing us much-needed models and increasingly better quality.
The funny thing is that all of Mantics stuff is written by Alessio Cavetore who used to work for and write rules for GW. He left GW when the ridiculous prices and lack of care for the hobbyists started and is now the major figure in the new up and coming company which does care about the hobbyist with low prices. Mantic reminds me of how GW used to be.
Good video – well thought out and better than a rant lol. Shall post this on facebook.
I LOVE how he is doing this in front of a wall full of Privateer Press products.
I feel that if GW don’t already know this, then they don’t deserve such a polite message. Not that they will take much notice.
Overall agreed with the open letter but GW will probably go away with the concept that it is not good to lump all the bad news in the same basket, People might walk. Spread it out so they only complain. Thanks for the the advice on spin.
well structured and thought out. This video really sums up what i ,and i think many other wargamers, believe. I really,really hope that this video somehow reaches the upper echelons of GW management and that they take notice. For if they don’t,well, they might just end up shooting themselves in the foot.
HERE HERE Matt! Well said and well done! I back everything you said whole heartedly.
Hey John, by any chance is your tank up and running? I can think of one place we can role up and shell. They might take notice of us gamers for a change.
Matthew might just be my new hero. Nothing he says is new, anyone with half a brain will have figured if not all then at least most of it already. But this is just an excellent summary with some excellent reasoning AND above all, and something that i value immensely, performed in a civilized manner.
A really good open letter to GW. I must admit that I absolutely love the IP of 40k and Fantasy, but as he says the startup costs for these games are way to high to even allow an impulse buy.
I suppose its fair to say that the thing that makes me so irritated at GW’s pricing strategy is that at the same time as making its miniatures more expensive to purchase, it is also encouraging larger and larger armies. I remember back when I started that the standard size of an army was around 1000pts for a good afternoons gaming. Now all the GW PR machine does is trumpet 3000pts,
I’m sure lots of people have opinions on the rulesets buyt my own feeling is that 40k and Fantasy need to move into a more flexible rules set to allow alternate activations or some other form of simultaneous turns before they even think about all this huge army size stuff. Big games day at my old club was just dull because you’d spend about half an hour or more waiting for one side to just do movement!
Preferably I think the scale for Warhammer just needs to be pulled back…. it would probably fit the background too if they did that. All the stuff about space marines being superhuman soldiers, and yet the standard space marine army these days needs to contain at least fifty to a hundred of them to even be legal.
Smaller scale games is the future I think. I’m looking at Mercs at the moment
That’d be a great idea. For GW to develop a small add on to WHF especially, to scale down the points. Similar to a City Fight thing. Something that would make the game more adaptable to the small scale battles that people could play who are starting off. Just snowballing a few ideas. Everything skirmishes, though units could fall into formations, so say a group of between five and ten spearmen could form a phalanx between two pieces of terrain. Remove heroes and lords for the smaller games and use Unit champions to lead, give them something small to make them stand out and play it that way. In a campaign these could be used for covert missions, cutting off supply lines or eliminating a key structure, spell circle or siege works construction. Then when players have amassed enough models they can move onto the epic battle.
For WHF especially I think it would be a great idea to encourage entry into fantasy wargaming. Now I happen to love the Empire, but that’s mainly out of a historian and fantasy freak’s ability to understand and imagine the background, which is hardly as compelling let’s say as the 40k universe (after all, its an entire universe!)
With a smaller scale for fantasy, people could start actually creating their own stories, backgrounds and characters to really get into the hobby (the kind of team creation you get in Blood Bowl, or gangs in Necromunda and Mordheim) which can later be expanded as they get more models.
The smaller scale would lend well to narrative campaigns, and to some great tooth and nail battles in the various settings of the Old World. One day its Orcs raiding a village, with state troops trying to defend it…. the next its a vicious fight between skaven clanrats in a power struggle in the Underempire…then on to a Dark Elf raid on the shores of Lustria. Bringing back the awesomeness that gets lost in 3000pt generic army battles!
He makes good points on all the prolems the comunity is having with GW, but like trebomills says GW wont be listening anytime soon until their bank accounts and stock starts feeling the pinch.
We live in intreting times
Very well said, I’ve been with GW since around about 1996 with the lizardmen vs bretonnia box, and around then all the kids at school played warhammer, many of them obviously went with it being a craze at the time, but others like myself have been loyal and stuck with it since. but i have to say i don’t see a huge amount of kids joining the hobby now. I’d heard a small amount about Privateer Press before but not really looked at it. Since all the ranting etc i have ordered a trollblood starter box, and to be fair i got the same joy opening that box as i had opening a box of warhammer all that time ago. The image of the company, models, artwork just makes me feel more like they care about what they do. Although that may not be the case Games Workshop just gives me the impression that they do not care about the people that buy their product any more.
i saw this video last night. i pretty much agree with everything he said: except one.
the prices of their product is not fairly priced. The guy talked as though their yearly price hike is a routine thing and isnt bad. when i think its the biggest offender. no other miniatures company in the world hikes prices at the rate and scale gw does. their pricing is way over the top, not fair pricing, and the biggest reason in my opinion GW is circling the drain.
he did make a lot of really really good points though. GW’s PR guy sucks
I doubt anything will change, but its certain that the week of doom wont be swept under the carpet as easily as previous GW misadventures, and pressure is building on them.
The post launch issues with finecast are only adding to it.
The most important point he made, and the one that really bothered me (not that price rises should always be accepted, but I personally found this worse) was labelling their own customers (the indie retailers) as freeloaders.
That , to me, was so shockingly unprofessional I struggle to understand how Wells still has a job, or his legal department after its publication.
Any professionally run business wouldnt have put out a statement like that, and the fact they did gives me, as a customer, the impression that GW are currently a very unprofessional, badly run company, and set me looking for alternatives. My one finecast miniature had added shoddy products to that impression.
Conversely Mantic, new company as they are, and quite clearly not as well funded, give the impression of trying to run a decent ethical business.
I dont frankly care if some of their miniatures are a bit lacking, they are making the effort, and most importantly, give me the impression they actually want my money.
GW seem to think they are entitled to it..
(I would add corvus belli ,Privateer Press, and numerous of the smaller producers with Mantic there, they just happen to be fresh in my mind)
just posted this vid on facebook. this whole situation with GW really saddens me. i, as a lot of people, grew up with GW and ive witnessed over the years, the white dwarf go down hill, and what i can only describe as the spirit of the company, completely change. but unfortunately we can all record and make as many posts as we liek on social gaming forums, but GW will only take notice, if we reply to their recent actions by placing locks on our wallets and not spending our money there. dont get me wrong i love their product i really do, but when you work full tiemto care for 4 children any form of price hike is forcing the game out of my reach.
White Dwarf….. I think the changes in that magazine really sum up the changes in GW. The first one I got had lots of hobby articles, background (Chapter Approved!!) and all sorts of interesting bits and pieces. Now its a glorified catalogue.
Found out last week that in the USA it is classed as a trade catalogue to benefit from cheaper postage rates. Magazines cost more to deliver apparently
Well that just about confirms it!
The questions that hit me is as follows… How many fellow gamers did we loose over this ???
Is there a way to reverse the bad choices made by GW ??? In reference to the obvious decline we will see over all the points made by Matt.
At the end of the day it is more important to strengthen the hobby itself than to address GW on these issues. Because it seems like rubbing salt in the wound on one hand and will result in more loss within the hobby as a whole.
In the other hand it kinda seems like GW doesn’t care or they wouldn’t of done things like they have been. I mean is anybody in that kind of a position really that careless ???
I still say the proper response is to support other game makers whether they be large or small to stop at least some of the bleeding, in regards to common sense and those who still desire to push the hobby forward.
I personally look towards outfits like this one and miniwargaming.com to give the other guy in all of this a solid shot at reaching those who still remain in the hobby.
Hey man, try and wrap your mind around someone new atm…
all ready put my thoughts on youtube. also love the exclusively privateer press product back ground!
Disagree with the excuse for the resin price increase being misunderstood. Ronnie was saying on Turn 8 that the Revenant Knights doubled in quantity and the price halved if I heard aright.
sorry, cheaper material and price increase is cheeky to just pass it off as okay cos it is the “annual” price hike.
even worse when they try to pass it off as due to inflation…
I’ve posted it!
This vid needed to come out…he is so right. I still agree with him that they make some of the best miniatures around, but some of the decisions made really have made myself question my own loyalty to them: is it misplaced?
It is the online community which keeps the excitement for the hobby alive for me. Places like BoW, MWG and BTP are great showcases for the hobby and all that it represents. As someone who lives no where near a GW company store, I rely on the Information, entertainment and enthusiasm displayed by the likes of Warren, Andy, MWG Matthew, MWG Dave, Shawn and yes even Darrell. All this said I don’t get Mr. Wells’ statement that Online companies don’t contribute to the hobby. I would say they do more than GW stores because they have to carry the hobby not just GW.
Couldn’t agree more. GW’s online presence used to be great, with Black Gobbo being the highlight. They used to have forums, but decided to shut them down. Black Gobbo was replaced later on with What’s New, which has more plugs and links to products in their online store than tips and tutorials on the hobby.
I love the internet presence that the wargaming hobby has established in the last 2-3 years. There are so many sites to visit with tons of users posting tips, advice, models, and more, that it amazes me that a company like GW wouldn’t want all that free advertising.
As far as Beasts of War, like you guys said already, you can’t stop the signal. Keep up the great work of promoting your hobby, and we will all of us benefit from it. We need more things like Turn 8 where people in the gaming industry get some face time with their audience outside conventions. It’s the best!
Well said Mat! I’m glad to see that the community is standing up to GW.
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