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Discussion about everything Flames of War related, including modelling, painting, collecting, fluff, cheese and historical facts!
Okay fellow FOWers… (that’s a word now), as you may have seen on the weekender and other videos I have been thrown into the GT…
I do not like tourneys for games at the best of times but I thought this would be a good community experiment.
So as I have no idea WHAT A FOW tourney list would even look like I would like you guys to help me on my road to total annihilation (as there is no hope in hell of me actually winning at game hahahaha).
So lets start with the 1780pts I have as a basis:
LW Irish Guards from the Market Garden book:
HEADQUARTERS Compulsory Armoured Squadron HQ 1x CIC Sherman V, 1x 2iC Sherman V CV 170 - AA MG 1x .50 cal AA MG for CinC Sherman 5 - AA MG 1x .50 cal AA MG for 2iC Sherman 5 - Dozer Blade 1x Dozer Blade for 2iC 5 - Recovery 1x Sherman ARV 10 - Hero 1x Joe Vandeleur, 1x RAF Forward Air Controller 60
Compulsory Armoured Platoon 1x Command Sherman V, 2x Sherman V, 1x Sherman Firefly CV 385 1 - AA MG 1x .50 cal AA MG for Sherman 5
Recce Patrol 1x Command Stuart VI, 3x Stuart VI CV 210 1 - AA MG 1x AA MG for Stuart VI 5
Lorried Rifle Platoon 1x Command Rifle/MG, 1x PIAT, 1x Light Mortar, 4x Rifle/MG CV 150 1 - Transport 2x 3-ton Truck 5
Field Battery, Royal Artillery 1x Command Rifle, 1x Staff, 1x Command Rifle, 1x Observer Rifle, 1x OP Carrier, 4x 25pdr CV 185 1 - Transport 1x Jeep, 2x 15cwt Truck, 1x Quad Tractor per 25pdr (2 or 4 25pdr guns) 5 - Transport Replace Jeep with unarmed captured StuG 5 - Observer 1x Replace Observer Rifle and OP Carrier with OP Sherman 10
Air Support Typhoon (Limited, 5 dice) 170
GO! pull it apart and any info on what a tourney list if FOW actually looks like please post them here…
Dave always dresses like a tosser in these videos- Michael Hartman. My biggest ‘fan’ on youtube
Disclaimer: I don’t really do tournament gaming, nor am I a veteran player. But I can add a few general observations.
When I construct a list I usually ask myself questions like “how do I deal with heavy tanks?”, “…with massed medium tanks or infantry hordes?”, “…with aircraft”, “… with dug-in veteran infantry”, etc.
Going by this, I think you might find yourself in trouble as armoured formations will tend to attack against infantry, but you’re going to be struggling somewhat if you’re forced to dislodge large veteran formations dug-in near an objective.
Aircraft are going to be an issue too as all you have is a few self-defense AA-guns on the Shermans (the .50 cal still count as self-defense AA, right?). So enemy aircraft are going to have a field day against your artillery.
If I were your opponent, I would place my infantry and anti-tank guns in dug-in positions around the objectives and make your artillery a primary target. Taking out your OP Sherman would reduce it’s effectiveness considerably. In addition, you can expect that, each turn, at least one of your armoured platoons will be smoked, forcing it to keep moving, reducing its firepower and hopefully bringing it closer to my own guns.
With your artillery hampered and your tanks smoked, the amount of fire you can put into my line is significantly reduced, meaning that I can adopt a defensive posture, hunkering down on the objectives and using my AA-gun to drive off your aircraft or shooting up your infantry if they get too close for comfort.
To take the objectives, you’ll be forced to push your scouts rapidly forward to help lift the gone-to-ground in order to get rid of my infantry. A dangerous undertaking at the best of times.
Of course, even the best plans never survive contact with the enemy…
Now, totally admitting my personal bias against aircraft and artillery (too random and has no place on the table respectively), I would drop both to get either more tanks or preferably more infantry / light infantry guns. You have a fast moving army that will usually be moving forward so your artillery risk getting left behind, a prime target for roving aircraft or fast-moving panzers rushing down your flank.
I also am not a tournament gamer.(But I have watched a few…)
If you want to take Joe Vandeleur and RAF FAC, then take Priority Typhoons to take advantage of the special rules!
I would be tempted to drop the stuarts in favor of a Universal carrier scout platoon. (As it is easy to use Stuarts as tanks rather than recce unit .Well it is for me any way!) This allows you to take a couple of SP Bofors.(For AA and anti infantry duty..)
I agree with warworksdk. The towed arty is a bit of a liability.And as Brit Sherman V can fire smoke and HE .I would rather get another Squadron of tanks. P.S why are you taking 3 ton lorries, dont the guards get the ‘platoon debuss’ rule. (EG they can ride into battle on tanks with bonuses of recon units reactions….)
Just some ideas…
Good points all
on the platoon debus rules they are great….
only thing is with reserve rules being like they are you have to get TWO reserve rolls on the same one to get the tanks and the riders on…
I agree with the other posters about the towed arty, it tends to be a juicy target for enemy reconnaissance units and with Vandeleur’s special rules your tanks are quite likely aggressively moving forward, leaving the artillery far behind.
Quickly skimming through the list raises two questions:
1) How do you deal with dug in (elite) infantry?
This tends to be problem with all British armored forces. General lack of breakthrough guns and No HE rule of Firefly means that you must have tons of FP 3+/4+ direct fire to soften up the defenders before assaulting.
2) How do you deal with always attacking lists or when you lose the roll versus another tank company?
With five platoons you can deploy only two units when defending. You shouldn’t be defending that often, but I’d consider fiddling with the list so you have six platoons. Maybe by dropping the artillery and switching the Stuarts to something cheaper, since their main task is removing gone to ground status and gunning down infantry or defenseless artillery. Having six platoons would also make you bit more durable in general. It may be bit tricky to get to the six platoon ideal if you want to keep the air support though.
Would you like to brief us a bit on which parts of the list you would definitely like to keep as they are and what you are planning to deploy in different missions?
I want to keep JOE… that’s about it really I’m quite flexible if people have any ideas.
That and I want to stay Irish Guards….
Well, if we are throwing ideas around, here are two bit more aggressive (and somewhat gimmicky) six platoon lists. These are mainly food for thought and quite a leap from your original suggestion, but hopefully they’ll be provocative enough get the discussion rolling.
And I am by no means an expert in tournament play, so take this with a grain of salt.
The air support was ditched, because it doesn’t count as a platoon, which is a huge problem when your core platoons are so expensive. The Stuarts got switched to Universal Carriers which are cheaper and give you two platoons instead of one.
In list one I also dropped the artillery. Lack of templates allows your opponent to bunch his/her troops and interweave platoons for defensive fire, but then again 25 pounders aren’t that big of a threat anyway and on attack you can usually concentrate your forces on the objective that is lightly defended. The plain jane shermans should put out enough HE and direct fire smoke to shut down most ATGs and observers around the objective you are going for. Two platoons of UCs will keep those pesky ambushers away and remove gone to ground status from defenders. Infantry is there mainly to assault the panzerfaust equipped squads or to sit dug in on a objective. Lack of smoke template forces you to utilize the direct fire smoke a lot, but then again DF smoke is quite flexible tool. You also need to use MGs to pin down enemy, but then again list assumes that you quickly concentrate big portion of your force on single objective when attacking, so there should be plenty of smoke and machineguns around.
List two drops the infantry and one Sherman for Sextons. This of course forces you to assault with tanks, which is quite risky with all the bazookas and panzerfausts around. Then again your Sextons can simply roll forward when enemy ATGs and tanks are gone and join the Shermans at blasting the enemy out of their foxholes. Sextons also have .50 cals, which should give them (very) limited protection from enemy air. As armored teams they are also immune to pinning.
Both lists are heavily based on JOEs special rules that turn the British Shermans from snipers to knife fighters.
Third one is bit more conservative. It aims for six platoons and tries to cover all aspects but it really doesn’t particularly shine on any area. Stuarts are back, Column Platoon gives some flexibility and infantry and Sextons perform their usual tasks. Then again you could switch the Stuart platoon on your original list to two Universal Carrier patrols. And get about the same effect, but with air support.
Personally I wouldn’t bother to get dedicated AA with the guard. I think that supporting your artillery with adequate AA is quite costly for its benefits. The SP AA has awkward layout and is very vulnerable to indirect fire so keeping it with the armored platoons can get very tricky. Just hug terrain and keep some distance between units until you are so close to the enemy that the air cannot target you (or use your own air to intercept, in case you have it).
In the end it is just finding the list you feel most comfortable with.
You’ve been busy with Vietnam lately, but are we going to see Rockyesque training montage as the tournament draws closer? And the way I’ve understood it you both are going to participate, so is Warren going to document his list making process, or will he just StuG it?
I hope we will be showing off and getting lists together….
Its makes for good viewing and peoples input are always welcome….
Might even see some more uniforms from yours truly
Compulsory Armoured Squadron HQ – 1x CinC Sherman V, 1x 2iC Sherman V (170 pts) - AA MG – 1x Equip with .50cal AA MG for CinC Sherman (5 pts) - AA MG – 1x Equip with .50cal AA MG for 2iC Sherman (5 pts) - Dozer Blade – Equip 2iC with Dozer Blade (5 pts) - Hero – 1x Warrior Joe Vandeleur with RAF Forward Air Controller (60 pts)
Compulsory Armoured Platoon – 1x Command Sherman V, 2x Sherman V, 1x Firefly VC (385 pts) - AA MG – 1x Equip Sherman with .50cal AA MG (5 pts)
Motor Platoon – 1x Command MG, 1x PIAT, 1x Light Mortar, 3x MG, 4x M5 half-track (150 pts) - Additional team – 1x MG (25 pts)
Guards Armoured Car Platoon – 1x Command Daimler I, 1x Daimler I, 2x Daimler Dingo (150 pts)
Field Battery (SP), Royal Artillery – 1x Command Rifle, 1x Staff, 1x Command Rifle, 1x Sherman OP, 4x Sexton (250 pts)
- Transport – 1x Captured Sd Kfz 251/1 half-track, 1x 15-cwt truck, 1x Jeep per Sherman OP (10 pts)
Air Support – Limited Typhoon (170 pts)
1780 Points, 5 Platoons
This is the list I am going with to the tourney, as Ive said before I am not expecting to win, but I think I will have some fun with the list. Alot of this is is actually going to be learn on the job…. like Motor platoons which I have not used very much (ie at all)
Any ideas hahaha
My previous comments regarding lack of air-cover for your artillery still stands. Also, as a pure technicality, having an odd number of platoons is generally considered a bad thing.
Well, as long as you have fun, who cares…?
Good luck with the tournament. Let us know how it goes.
Mate, looks like it is going to be fun to use, like to see how the motor platoon works out?
Just a thought what about replacing the Guards Armoured Car Platoon with the weapons platoon Recce Patrol 3x Stuart VI 160pts. I know you will have to find 10pts from somewhere, but the better firepower and mobility might be worth it?
But any way good luck and have fun, are we going to see the list in action against Warren before the event ?
I’d advice getting even number of platoons too, but like it was said, as long as you have fun.Good luck!
@lafayette, don’t forget to let us know how the tourney was, who you faced etc
Don’t worry ill be taking lots of pictures and writing bat reps for all my losses.
Maybe BoW will let me do a post on here like they do.
I will be posting pictures soon of my fully painted army too, It might even be on up and coming videos of FoWFtW
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