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MIDWAY NAVAL THREAD – Add Your Own Naval Awesomeness! (123 posts)

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  • Avatar Image jamesevans140756p said 1 week, 6 days ago:

    Thanks for walking us through one of @ecclesiastes Naval War battles. I love the photos of his miniatures.
    It is a game we will definitely look into in the close future.

    I think a special thanks to @ecclesiastes for sharing his game with us. Between @oriskany and yourself together you have given us great exposure to a fantastic set of naval wargaming rules. :-D

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  • Avatar Image oriskany10437p said 1 week, 6 days ago:

    Okay, I fixed the post that got ruined in Montreal.

    http://www.beastsofwar.com/groups/historical-games/forum/topic/midway-naval-thread-add-your-own-naval-awesomeness/?topic_page=3#post-205479

    Thanks for the replies and the posts, @jamesevans140 – I promise more detailed replies in the morning – at the moment I’m about to pass out after finally getting to our destination and a comfortable bed! :D

    June 22, 194176th Anniversary of Barbarossa, the Axis invasion of the Soviet Union
  • Avatar Image oriskany10437p said 1 week, 6 days ago:

    Okay, let’s quickly wrap up this Midway Operations game. :D

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  • Avatar Image ecclesiastes141p said 1 week, 6 days ago:

    @Oriskany Looks like a great game there! It really gives that ‘strategic view’ of the battle.

    I’m also very thankful that you have all my pictures there, since the kids did not grant me a lot of time to put all those up even if I wanted to.

    To the person asking about my playing surface, just a blue piece of cloth I picked up at a fabric shop, one of those leftover coupon pieces. I actually managed to cut out two 180x120cm playing surfaces from that one piece. :)

  • Avatar Image ecclesiastes141p said 1 week, 6 days ago:

    @jamesevans140 said:
    Thanks for walking us through one of @ecclesiastes Naval War battles. I love the photos of his miniatures.
    It is a game we will definitely look into in the close future.

    I think a special thanks to @ecclesiastes for sharing his game with us. Between @oriskany and yourself together you have given us great exposure to a fantastic set of naval wargaming rules. :-D

    Thanks for the compliment! I really hope all the efforts may pull some of the land guys into the water to try this kind of gaming. Better yet, I really hope the new Naval War interests (almost 30 new registered members of the site so far since the publishing of the first article) will go play some games, have a lot of fun and then return to the Naval War forum with their feedback, idea’s and suggestions :)

    As I am just one guy and his ruleset, community feedback is really, really appreciated for improving and balancing the game. I am of course already working on the next version, hopefully with a new and improved scenario generator!

  • Avatar Image oriskany10437p said 1 week, 6 days ago:

    Thanks very much, @ecclesiastes – and no worries about posting all your pics. I just hope I’m getting all the context right. :D

    And thanks for the compliment on the very rough, very simple “Midway Operations.” Honestly, I think the idea “naval game” would be a combination on your game and a much-refined, much-fleshed out, much-cleaned up version of something like Midway Operations. We were talking in the other thread about “campaign ideas” and the like, something like this might work.

    Literally just a map with a movement rate and tracking time (daylight and darkness), with a list of what ships are in each task force and some decoys to add “fog of war” uncertainty.

    Once ships are aircraft actually get in contact, you set that aside and build a Naval War scenario to resolve what happens in more miniatures-based detail and action. :D

    Awesome to hear about the 30 new members on your site!

    Oh, I now that I am one of those new members, I was able to find all the counters, command stations, and quick reference sheets you were talking about. :D I will try a new Naval War simulation soon (now with the complete rule set – and I’ll even remember to do Command Checks this time).

  • Avatar Image jamesevans140756p said 1 week, 5 days ago:

    @ecclesiastes, you are most welcome sir.
    Exposure has always been a great way to gather a crowd. But what then? Crowds will quickly be attracted to the next lot of bells and whistles. We humans are a simple folk after all.

    From what I have noticed especially in this century it that once the crowd has gathered distract them by giving them something to do.
    Fast play booklets with lots of photos that are rules at a glance that show the core essence of the rules where players can fumble through their first game. Battle of River Plate would be a good candidate. These are then followed up by videos that give a more in-depth overview than the booklet. Then each following video looks at a subject in greater detail such as one would look at movement and another at combat. The video set normally finishes off with a more involved battle demonstrating most of the rules. Hunt the Bismarck would be a candidate for this. Posting battle reports here will keep interest going. Finally some how to articles for modelling and painting or taking an in-depth look at a rule or two. Questions about rules that you get would be a guide. As you don’t produce miniatures creating sheets of cut out fleets for players to start with would be a great help. Silhouette or top down would be good enough. The players simply download them from your website. It would give them a reason to return to it and get more exposure when they do. Pre written scenarios ready to play would be another thing.

    You are most definitely not just one man with a rule set. There is an entire community here to help you if you ask. None of this has to be a Hollywood production, it only needs to be good enough to get the job done.

    These are just my thoughts that I have thrown out there to kick around. At the end of the day these are your rules to do as you please and take it where you want. :-)

  • Avatar Image jamesevans140756p said 1 week, 5 days ago:

    @oriskany your game appears to be a great strategic level game. I am a firm believer that the higher the level that the game the more simplistic the rules should be. At this level you are looking at the statistical result of the attack and not at the more complex system that produces it. You can have a very complicated system that takes days to play but at the end of the day the results will be similar. If fact with the complex system you are in danger of getting lost in the detail and the final objective becoming clouded. Complex plans also have a habit of this and the battle of Midway is an example of this. It has two objectives and scope creep as a result.

    Interestingly your game here reminds me of a land battle. If conducted a bit better Midway should have been a decisive Japanese victory. This battle is similar to the tanks becoming separated from the infantry and has had the same results. The Spanish Civil War and the Winter War are filled with examples of this kind of failure. If fact it goes back to ancient times. Cavalry not being firmly controlled gets excited breaks formation from the main body. It races unsupported in its excitement to seek battle and gets chopped up.
    Like any other unit of warfare the carrier is no different. The more targets a carrier has to immediately address the more dilute its fire power becomes, yet fail to address one of its targets could mean it’s destruction. It has little to offer in the way of armour. If you think of a squadron of aircraft as a salvo, they have the world’s slowest rate of fire. At this point in the war the carrier does not have the protective screen of ships that it will have a bit later in the war. You engage a Zero in the vertical and never it a turning battle. In this example the Japanese choose the turning battle and by doing so handed over all their advantages.

  • Avatar Image oriskany10437p said 1 week, 5 days ago:

    Thanks, @jamesevans140 – indeed this Midway Operations “game” is pretty simple. Okay, I actually hesitate to call it a “game.” Took about 2-3 hours, and yes, it does have a basic combat system (statistical averages and aggregations, as you say). I’d hold it up favorably to games like Avalon Hill’s Midway … (very simple, I love the company but this wasn’t one of the better works).

    https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2250/midway

    But in the end “Midway Operations” is really just a campaign tracker mechanic that would better serve to connect together and provide a framework for better games like Naval War. :D

    And yes, I think the battle should have been a Japanese decisive victory. Just being a little more aggressive with Kondo’s Second Fleet and Invasion Force all but handed Midway Island to them. The Americans of TF 16 and 17 can’t fight them and Nagumo’s carrier strike force at the same time. Eliminating the flaws of the Japanese planning and disposition all but wins them the battle, since it allows their qualitative and quantitative advantages to pay off.

    One of these days I might try to put Yamamoto’s Main Body up with the rest of the fleet (bring them on with the rest of the Japanese fleets on Turn 1 instead of Turn 7). Watch how bad the Americans lose Midway Island THEN. :D

  • Avatar Image jamesevans140756p said 1 week, 4 days ago:

    Is suppose it would ferry up depend on what you want to get out of it. It seemed to deliver a reasonable game.
    For most WW2 European land campaigns we use Battlefront’s Firestorm rules. It comes with extra rules for it to be played as a stand-alone game, but to be honest I never tried it.

  • Avatar Image jamesevans140756p said 1 week, 3 days ago:

    A bit more time to reply (non days).
    If I were to try doing something with Yamamoto’s main fleet it would be something off the medieval battlefield where battles were tactical and both strategic at the same time. Just like naval war is in this period. Aircraft are just arrows but the carrier and aircraft are more like cavalry. Scouting by fast ship or aircraft remains the same as the lone horsed scout.
    So a classical deployment of main body with cavalry on both flanks lead by scouts trying to make contact. All making for Midway slightly from the north. The formation would approach in the oblique with the south flank leading. If either flank is engaged the other counter-attacks.
    With one dummy to the north and the rest to the south it would appear that I am coming from the south and possibly trying to swing up and around Midway to get behind his carrier fleet. If he reacts to this I will know where to find him.

    The faster Japanese carriers need to be to the north flank. The timing of advancing it’s critical. The end result should be at the critical moment there are too many targets for the US.

    While the theory of carrier warfare is proven at this point of the war the US does not have enough of them for a clear advantage yet.

    The flaw of the strategy of the Japanese plan is still an issue for me. I will save this for the final installment.

  • Avatar Image oriskany10437p said 1 week, 2 days ago:

    Some more of @ecclesiastes ‘ photos for the final strikes of Midway, the Japanese carrier strikes (IJN HIryu) against USS Yorktown, the Enterprise and Hornet launching strikes against Hiryu, and the sinking of Yorktown by submarine I-168.

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  • Avatar Image oriskany10437p said 1 week, 2 days ago:

    Some final pics: :D

    The torpedoing of the Yorktown, including flooding counters.

    IJN-168 sets up her attack run.

    The Hiryu is crippled at the end of the battle.

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  • Avatar Image jamesevans140756p said 1 week, 2 days ago:

    Just like the rest of his work there photos are just great. Visual impact appears to be of great importance to a game now-a-days. In this respect Naval War is off to a good start.

    @ecclesiastes really needs to follow up with some how to articles here on BoW to keep the interest going. Timing off these articles is about right as some members are putting their first fleets together or are repainting old ones.

  • Avatar Image oriskany10437p said 1 week, 2 days ago:

    Agreed, @jamesevans140 – I’ve also joined the Naval War website and community at https://www.naval-war.com/ . There’s a lot more information there as well, photos, stats, downloads, scenarios, etc. :D