Dwarf King’s Hold Game Play Video
June 30, 2011 in Board Games, Dwarf King's Hold, Kings of War, Rerun, The Insider by lloyd
Following on from having a look at the prototype Andy and Jake play through a small game of Dwarf King’s Hold.
This game’s been fun to play and it’s a bit of a running joke in here now that Andy always losses in this game and true to form even in the game play video he losses!
So guys what do you think of how it plays?
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finally we see it
Having just watched it seems to be fairly solid gameplay…looks like you need to just run as fast as possible to the end and shield bash your wat through the bones.
backs to the walls boys
Ah ha, been waiting for this.
Just need to go and order one now.
@trebormills, yeah It looks like you could win that particular scenario with judicious applications of Bellybash and leg it, but I’m thinking the other ones won’t be so simple.
Not convinced whether that particular scenario is as perfectly balanced as it should be – the odds seem to be stacked against the dwarfs there, even accounting for some unlucky dice rolls – I could see myself replaying that scenario (with only the 3 dwarfs allowed) six times and quite easily losing all six, regardless of tactics, which could be a tad frustrating – but the general gameplay seems quite interesting.
I’m not blown away so far, but I am interested to see what else the game has to offer so I’ll be keeping an eye out for any more articles on it.
Really liked this video. Great to see the game being played. Has me sold to buy myself a copy and perhaps a second for the gaming club.
Have to say, that although it looks good it’s not really what I had hoped for. It does seem to be Space Hulk in a dungeon rather than a more random dungeon crawler that I’d been hoping for. Also disappointed that there are only 6 scenarios included but lets hope that the ‘internet’ and mantic web site improve things on that front.
I’m not put off yet, but will be monitoring for more info..
I’d agree that it’s not the crawler I was hoping for either but as I say below I like the mechanics and it shouldn’t be hard to adapt other races to work …
I like it – definately on my wish list
Think i said this in the preview thread but the fact that it isnt a dungeon crwaler per se doenst put me off. Has more in comon with a Skirmish game. I echo the thoughts though that hopefully the internet and mantic will push out “mini supplements” for it.
Looking good though – definately swaying towards buying this.
Gotta say I am really liking how Mantic are pushing there minatures down as many avenues as possible.
I’m impressed so far. but not sure how balanced that scenario is. as another poster said, I can see loosing alot with dwarves.
On the whole though so far it looks great, and simple enough to get non wargaming people involved in it. I look forward to more vids!
I’m glad that this looks more like Space Hulk than Warhammer Quest. Also, the tactical action reminds me a lot of “new” D&D.
Of course, I pre-ordered this weeks ago, so I’m glad it’s not going to be money down the pan…
Thanks for the vid.. love how simple the game is.. maybe a little to simple.. but a great quick game.. hope to see this expand into something really huge.
I’m really looking forward to the expansions… As of now, the game looks beautiful and fast paced, simple, yet deep enough… But it’s still Space Hulk in a dungeon !
Sorry Mantic…
I’m Impressed, it looks really great, it plays very well (obviously), but I already own Space Hulk, HeroQuest, and too many versions of D&D to consider playing that game “as is”, or on a regular basis.
I haven’t seen the “je ne sais quoi” that would sway me just yet !
I’m waiting for it to be more complex, more HeroQuest, and more readily customizable.
Use this Mantic product to expand on your many others then. plenty of models, tiles and tokens for your cash.
Damn you… You’re… You’re right !
Really nice job. I love the simple yet tactical rules. Some of the other dungeon games I have require several different decks of cards, a slew of unique dice, or several charts and die modifiers to figure out. While those games are fun, it’s really great to see a dungeon crawler that lets ya play quickly and that others can pick up easily too.
You were right Andy
Your dice gods have deserted you! Libations of Guinness needed to placate them, and maybe a human sacrifice or two wouldn’t be a bad idea.
If we don’t see any more of Darrell and Warren, we will understand!
Jake has done a good job imho and I like the look of the ease of play/tactical requirement ratio.
From what was said in the live interview, Mantic will be producing two more sets with other races and extra scenarios will be put up on the website..
The system is very flexible so you can add your own flavour to the game.
I’ve never played a crawler, and I typically don’t enjoy board games, but so far Mantic hasn’t let me down. I’ll have to give this a shot as soon as I finish my Mantic Wood Elf army, and pick up some new shield-less archers, oh and finish my Abyssal Dwarves, for which I could use some greenskin models as rabble…
I think Andy totally forgot about his objective by turn 2 and went on randomly bashing skellies with no plan whatsoever
As a die-hard fan of Space Hulk, I think a fantasy-version sounds quite interesting. However, I don’t like the random actions aspect and all the tokens / micromanaging it involves.
).
Random dice rolls are enough in my opinion, not really being able to plan your movement due to the fact that you don’t know what and how many actions you can do. I see lots of frustration coming from this and doubt balancing benefits from it (if this thing is intended to be balanced, I love DungeonQuest for being a mean piece of game that more often than not kills you in nasty ways just because you looked the wrong way
The video clearly shows some general balancing issues, I think. The undead player is in a much more favorable position both including the placement of his troops at the beginning and the amount of stuff he can do per turn. Stopping the dwarves should be quite easy in most cases as there are too many chokepoints and with clever positioning on part of the undead player one could easiley lock the possibilities of shieldbashing – I think the four skellies in the end section just have to block the entrance to the final room (unless shieldbashing works with 2 skellies in a row – I assume shieldbashing is impossible with something blocking on the tile behind). With effectively infinite troopers coming from the dungeons entrance the Dwarves will just end up in a grinder (especially with all the modifiers working against them and the possibility of crippling them too, making them even less effective).
Or put differently, if you mess up your first turn and don’t make it past the first two rooms it seems to be the odds are really high against the Dwarves. Not exactly the best way to start into a game.
Besides that I think the tiles are rather limiting for the movement the dwarves have, too confined to make outrunning really a viable option (especially in this scenario). And combat, while more complex at first glance, seems like it’s stretching game time too much. Especially on the narrow 1- or 2-wide spaces the game could take forever on bad rolls if neither side gains an upper hand. Granted Andy had some incredibly bad rolls, but defending and armor as two separate things seem to take the killiness out of this. I am pretty sure some Mathhammer-people can turn this into nice hit-% summarization. But rolling higher than the enemy and having at least a 3+ seems like it could really be a showstopper. Especially in those chokepoints and with swarms of beasties.
But maybe I am missing something here. I’d love to see Jake using the dwarves tackle this scenario.
I am hoping the rulebook will include some sort of variant play with fixed numbers of actions per side and suggestions for alternative playmodes and/or difficulty modifiers (easier and more hardcore). Hopefully we will see some expansions with the other races included. I’d love to pit the dwarves against some of the new orc models.
As Jake said on the interview the game is flexible and open to player input.
The scenario is a template so if you think it is imbalanced try a variation.
Add a dwarf /a dog/ remove skellies/bone piles /change layout etc
Well, of course. That applies to basically any game or gamesystem. But if I end up designing my own game, I don’t need to buy the box, really
And the Questbook in HeroQuest and the likes wasn’t just a “suggestion” or “template” – it worked right out of the box. And that’s what I am getting at.
After all, they present it this way – so I am just wondering about some of the design decisions. And of course how much care went into the process of crafting/playtesting (if any) the scenarios would be of importance as well – in the best case the amount of Skellies was placed there for a reason and so where the tiles they picked for the dungeonlayout.
Promoting a game and saying change everything you don’t like is a weird way to make me buy something new and shiny (unless it’s some sort of “Make your own Adventure”-thing).
But if you watched the video you would have seen that the dwarves also won that scenario.
Watching one game makes it a bit harsh to make a judgement call that the game is unbalanced.
I could claim that HQ is broken cos the good team will always win the first scenario, based on my own experience of winning the game with the good players.
But I won’t. .
.
I think I made it clear in my posts where my assumption that balancing could be an issue comes from. It’s not really the outcome that bothers me – and Andy wasn’t exactly up for the challenge (sorry Andy) against an experienced player, but that actually made some of the points I wondered about come up more clearly. Besides, I even stated that if it’s not balanced it’s fine by me too, I just would like to know beforehand that the factions don’t meet on equal grounds and that this wanted by design.
Still this is the first scenario, I’d actually expect the good guys to win no matter how daft the player is
Then again, with only 6 missions available it’s good that this is not the case.
Jake did a good job explaining some of the rather interesting bits the vid didn’t show below (turning me from a “well, I might check this out someday” into “I will buy this” person with just two comments). Crushing some of my “concerns” in the process. After all, talking about it more in depth can only be to the benefit of us all, right?
I think that it is a better set of rules than those of space hulk.
Looks interesting – not too sure abbout a “run out of actions” ending – seems a bit anti-climactic. I’d rather that at the point the actions run out, they all get recycled, but the skeletons get reinforcements turn up or something.
I dont think there’s enough to say this is imbalanced on watching this – perhaps it might have been better to reverse the roles for this test, with the designer playing what seemed to be the harder job of the dwarves? Even if the skeletons then got the (literal!) hammering,it would have probably been a more exciting outcome than the dwarves getting stuck on tile 2. .
Hi folks, Jake Thornton here. Hope you don’t mind if I weigh in with a few comments of my own.
Firstly, thanks for being interested enough to watch the video. It was lots of fun making this and the other videos with the BOW guys. Live internet TV is weird.
Secondly, I do understand that Dwarf King’s Hold (DKH) won’t be everyone’s cup of tea. That’s cool. If we all liked the same thing then it’d be very dull. That said, I’d still like to address some of the comments made here as I think there are some slightly mistaken notions kicking about.
Is the first scenario balanced? Yes, I think it is balanced. Sure, Andy got a bit of a kicking here – no denying it. However, we had previously played a game where the Undead got their boney asses handed to them. What I think IS true is that it is easier to see what the Undead should be doing than to plan a successful Dwarf assault. Like many games with differing sides, the learning curve for each army is different. The Dwarfs are probably harder to play well in this scenario (though in the second, for example, I think the Dwarfs are easy and it’s the skellies who have the tricky time). In this case the Dwarfs face up to 8 skellies with only 3 Dwarfs. Importantly though, the Dwarfs don’t need to kill skellies, or even survive with more than one model. But they do need to move.
As with any other game involving dice, there is an element of luck, and Andy was not having much here. Coupled with being on camera, having the harder job (as Dwarfs) and me having much more experience with the game his loss is not surprising. Perhaps we should have swapped sides.
This variance in sides throws up a critical question for scenario balance: what level of experience do you pitch it at? What I mean is, if it’s easy to learn the skellies in scenario 1 and harder to learn the Dwarf tactics, do I tweak it in favour of the Dwarfs to balance it for someone who plays for the first time or leave it balanced for experienced players? If I tip the balance towards the Dwarfs then it will be unwinnable for an Undead player against an experienced Dwarf player. But then do I risk putting off newbies? In the end I went for replayability and longevity of fun. I can’t guess whether you will learn the game quickly or slowly or know what other things you’ve played and whether this is all vaguely familiar tactics or completely new stuff. What I can say is that when people I’ve seen have played it a number of times from both sides they can still have a fun, close and tactically challenging game of scenario 1. Now that’s something that “learning scenarios” tend not to be able to say.
Is DKH just fantasy Space Hulk? This comment always makes me smile. No, it’s not. Calling it fantasy Space Hulk is, however, a good mental shorthand to explain DKH in one sentence if that’s all the space/time you have. It’s got tiles and you move models about. That’s about all it has in common. In practice it’s very different. Apart from detail differences such as the fact that it’s the outnumbered ones that can be hidden and the horde is slow not fast, it is not nearly as micromanaging as Hulk. In Space Hulk you pay to turn each face, pay per square, pay to shoot (if I recall correctly) and so on. Incursion is very like Space Hulk in this regard. In DKH life is much simpler. You pay an action to move a model which can then move and turn freely up to its maximum movement and then, if it ends up next to an enemy, it fights. Simples! The challenge to me in designing it was to keep that simplicity without losing the tactical challenge. DKH also has more resources to manage and more ways to vary set ups for scenarios. The sides also tend to be more varied between scenarios. Even when one side has the same victory conditions in two scenarios, the way in which they go about fulfilling that is often different. This means that you have to think and rethink your strategies as you go, adapting to the challenge as each is posed. There is no one magic tactic.
Random tokens. Aulbath didn’t like this idea and “doubts balancing benefits from it”, so I thought I’d explain some of its advantages and why I used it. Each side has a different set of 24 tokens to draw from. By giving each side a different set you can add a lot of character to the way they play. In addition, different scenarios give the different sides more or less tokens (and Baleful Gazes, and models, etc). The “balancing benefits” Aulbath doubts here are, in my view, enormous. Between the different tokens, model counts and tile layout I have a huge degree of fine-tuning available. I’m also able to make each scenario play quite differently and pose the players very different tactical challenges. Also, importantly, I add a load of character and story to each side, which would simply not be possible with fixed action points systems (of course you could add character, but you’d have to do it elsewhere with a bunch of extra rules – I can do it here with an integral part of the mechanics).
Lastly, if you’ve got all the way down here, thanks for reading. I know I can ramble on. Hopefully I’ve been able to explain some of my thinking and clear up some questions.
All the best
Jake
I’m sorry if I offended you by calling your game Fantasy Space Hulk… I didn’t mean it as a slight, though, as I’m fond of SH myself ! I heartily welcome DKH, I truly do ! After seeing and reading what’s on BoW, I firmly believe it to be better and richer than SH, while remaining easier for everyone…
Everyone here is aware of the similarities, I’m sure : A smaller team of strong, armored guys tries to achieve objectives in a corridors/rooms environment while a team of weak yet numerous/replenishing opponents tries to stop them…
There’s action points tokens, it works with D6 in a similar fashion… Of course the mechanics aren’t the same, they’re simpler (and, yes, they’re better in DKH in my opinion), and there’s no shooting (that I’ve seen)…
Superficially, it’s similar to SH, and one can’t help but comparing the two, like comparing Warhammer and Warmachine… Even in the BoW videos, whether or not the comparison is relevant. SH is the only reference for many people, even though it’s completely sold out.
The whole fluff being different, the DKH game calls for expansions, other races, new objectives for every player… A variety that SH never had, and never will have. The gorgeous minis appeal to me in a way that the Termies never did, but that’s a matter of taste…
Still, I didn’t quite expect that kind of game when I heard the words “dungeon crawl”.
I hope my point of view has been made a little clearer…
In any case, thank you for sharing all this insight about the game, it shows that you’re truly dedicated and close to the players, and that you’re not afraid of criticism ! And why should you be ? You’re proud and honest about your game, and it’s obviously very good… That much everyone agrees on !
I do have a question… Is there a French translation of DKH in the works ? I live in France, and a lot of my friends don’t speak your language very well…
Talking with the main man behind it, excellent. Thanks for taking your time.
About the scenario: Maybe you Mantics can put up a little battle-report up in your blog or something where you explain the game a bit indepth for both factions? Or as a response you lead the dwarves to victory, post a bunch of pictures, maybe?
I think the ways to “win” for both factions are pretty obvious in this scenario (and it’s reminding me of how playing Resident Evil well works, which is basically to run away from the Zombies), but I wonder if the Undead player decides to clog up the chokepoints does the Dwarven player really have a chance (always assuming the skellies are backed by another skellie behind them is not allowing the Dwarves to shieldbash)?
In a way it reminds me of classic Advanced Hero Quest were you just ended up staying in Doorways or narrow corridors to avoid monsters ganging up on you. Once you realized that “trick” it became somewhat dull. Thanks to reanimating enemies this won’t be the same here, however I see some similarites.
I agree on your thoughts on balancing in general. It’s def. tricky. I am probably going to pick this up anyway, so I can check out the other 5 scenarios (and I am totally hoping this will be expanded into something that includes the other KoW-factions too) – because I like the fact it doesn’t seem to be taking as much space as most other games of this type do. I usually play with a bunch of powergamers and cheesemasters… they will probably develop some nasty game-breaking tactics
I perfectly understand why you gave the factions two different sets of tokens, and I get the whole “character”-part of it. However, not being able to pick the amount of actions you want because you are down to a random pool of 4 out of 24 at any given time bugs me. Worst case is bad luck, so you get a 1-action card and follow-ups for the dwarves in a scenario that needs you to move quickly. Basically, that could be desaster for the whole game from turn one because of bad luck. You are starting with an additional disadvantage that you cannot counter by anything and from the way the scenario plays this could well be your doom if the undead player gets a 3- or 4-action card as he can merrily begin clogging the chokepoints and the dwarven player can’t do anything about it.
What I am saying is that you could basically render the whole mape unwinnable for the Dwarven Player if he draws the wrong action cards (like at one point Andy has this 1x action card and does three follow-ups to kill one Skellie).No matter your experience or dice rolls. This could even put 2 dwarven teams fighting against each other in completely different starting positions – so that is why I question the balance. Or to put it differently, there are two random factors in this that you have to put into account, one being what action-cards you draw and the other how good or bad you roll.
That seems a bit too much random, and leaves too little control – both for making scenarios and playing them. It probably boils down to player-types. I prefer being in control and screwing myself over personally rather than being on the short end of the stick because I picked the wrong card or rolled badly. In a way I see these type of games rather as tactical “puzzles” with pieces that have to be in place at a certain point in order to work properly. Also, my favourite part which is planning ahead for 2 or 3 turns falls short if I don’t know what I get to actually do. There is probably too much “changes of plan on the fly” depending on luck. Which adds a very nice narrative but takes away from the “overcoming the tactical genius I am playing against”-part.
Anyway, thanks for your time responding. I will check this out that’s fore sure as it a nice excuse to invest into some Mantic without having to buy enormous armies.
Cheers,
Aulbath
Hi Aulbath, you make some interesting points. I’ll see what I can do to answer them.
Battle report/tactical notes: certainly an option. I’ll have to see how my time goes this week.
Does the Dwarf have a chance? Yes. Shield bash is a good way to clear stalemates and blocked sections if they are positioned so you can use it, but that’s not always possible. As you say, much of the grand tactics are fairly obvious. However, there is a more detailed level of tactics associated with facings, sequencing of attacks and token management (more on that later) which emerges as you play more and which really sorts the veterans from the neophytes. A skilled Dwarf player can get through skeleton barricades without the shield bash, though it is harder. What you need to think of is the the odds. A single Dwarf vs a single skeleton is 4 dice to 2, and that’s very much in the Dwarf’s favour. Organising fights so that the Dwarfs are not outnumbered (if you’re the Dwarf) or that they’re swamped (if you’re undead) is an important facet of shading the odds in your favour. There are times when micromanagement is necessary, but not often. Spotting when exact facing and precise sequencing of actions IS important is part of the skill.
Choke points. These are strong places to fight and defend in real life, so I see nothing wrong with them being appropriately strong defence points in game. That said, the variation of scenario objectives and maps makes individual positions very situational, and most will be of use for only part of a game. I agree on your AHQ comment. It did get stale when you knew the trick. With DKH I’ve tried to avoid this by including a great deal more variety of set up than AHQ had as well as shield bash which is good for moving things about. What I have found with the scenarios is interesting. Play the same one over and over (as you do when you’re testing) and there is a constant evolution of tactics. With a small game like the first one (which takes 15 minutes or less when you know the rules) you can play a game, lose, and then change your tactics and try again. What we found was that one side or the other would eventually develop a “killer” tactic that seemed unstoppable, but play against it 2 or 3 times and it will crumble to the next “killer” tactic from the opposition. Tactical evolution is fascinating to watch, and often hard to see in other games because individual sessions take so long to play.
Expansions. When the BOW guys put up the Turn 8 programme we did live you’ll see me explaining this. Basically we’re planning 3 starter sets, each with Dwarfs vs someone. This first one is vs Undead, the second will be vs Elves and the third against Orcs. After that we’ll do an expansion for all 3 together.
“Cheesemasters”. In my experience it doesn’t matter what rules you write, some people will simply bend then to their advantage. My answer to this is simply not to play these people
Tokens and randomness. Couple of important points here. Firstly, as a general rule, each player may discard his (or her) initial draw of tokens at the start of a scenario. Once per scenario and only at the start, but it’s enough to avoid starting with a really cack hand (unless you are extraordinarily unlucky). Secondly, the token pools are fairly small (24 each) and the contents are known (it’s listed in the book). This allows you to manage the hand better than a poker hand (less than half the cards and far less variety). For example, you know that you’ve got only 2 two action tokens if you’re the Dwarfs, and that you have 8 Follow Ons. What you play, what you keep and what you discard are all important parts of managing your hand over the game. Of course, what you draw is random, but you know from what set. If you’ve had both 2 actions then you aren’t going to get any more till the pool is reshuffled. You can carry tokens over from turn to turn, and saving Follow Ons (for the Dwarfs) is powerful and allows you to plan ahead effectively. In practice, as I said, you can make it a lot less random than a poker hand, and we know that game’s not just luck. That’s why I don’t think you need to worry about balance as much. A bigger factor is relative skill levels of players. A player who is managing his tokens, understands the value of careful positioning and facing, actions his models in the best sequence and so on will almost invariably beat someone who just plays what he draws and moves things as they occur to him. Regardless of what tokens he draws.
Player types. I like to play something where I am constantly having to think, where I can plan a little way ahead (2-4 turns here) and have an overall strategy, but where I may have to be flexible and adaptive and change plans mid game if I see an opportunity or my opponent makes an error. Typically in DKH, these changes will occur when a model dies or doesn’t die due to very lucky dice, or when a player makes an error, or when my 2-4 turn plan (usually involving saved Follow Ons for Dwarfs or Baleful Gazes for Necromancers) actually comes off properly.
Hope that helps
Jake
I like how your first long paragraph sounds (well, reads). That’s the reason I really enjoy Incursion and Space Hulk. Being at the right spot at the right time facing the right way. Kinda anticipating my enemies next move and being prepared for that. If there is plenty of that in Dwarf King’s Hold I am sold. I love that stuff, and being much more melee-based than both Incursion or Space Hulk (even though you don’t like this comparision, but I think that is closer than comparing it to simple Dungeon romps like HeroQuest).
Startersets sounds great, will they be available at the same time? I’d go straight for Orcs vs. Dwarves then (but who am I fooling, gonna get all three of them anyway then). Will it be the same tiles? Or just the same missions with different enemies? That is actually a clever way of making people get the content of a big box like they used to do back in the days, but chopped in three more affordable parts. I like that.
On chokepoints: Yes, they are important but also tend to be gamebreakers in many systems if abused.
Your explanation of the action-deck is interesting. I certainly haven’t looked at it that way.
I am not entirely convinced that Poker isn’t all about luck (in fact, I think it’s more hiding the fact that you are unlucky) but I get the point. That adds a whole new level of thinking to the game, as you can basically tell what your opponent has on his hands if you observe his actions. I like that.
I def. going to give this a try, this could turn out pretty damn cool if I think about. So, thank you very much for clearing up a few things. It is much appreciated (and you got yourself a supporter in the process
).
Looking forward reading/watching/seeing more from Dwarf King’s Hold (and it’s expansions. ORCS! ORCS! ORCS! ;D)
Just quickly – the starter sets will come out in order with gaps between them to get them properly playtested (and wait for Mantic to release the Orcs). So, I’m afraid you’ll have to wait a bit for the Orcs.
The tiles will be different art, though naturally some of the shapes will be repeated.
Each starter set will have its own set of new scenarios. Not repeating any of them. There will also be extra (free) ones in the Mantic Journal and online. If you had more than one starter set there’s no reason why you couldn’t try scenarios from one set with armies from other sets. Also, fighting forces from different sets against each other will all be possible. So, games of Orcs versus Elves, etc…
The action deck thing is something that people tend not to notice at first, but which (I think) adds a load of extra depth. Tactics in DKH are like peeling an onion. You think you’ve got to the end, then there’s another layer.
All the best
Jake
@quirkworthy – thanks for taking the time and explaining the differences between DKH & SH, has made me think more favourably in spending my Hard earned on it, however.. I may wait for the Orc version
Hope it works out for you, it seems you’ve definitely put a lot of work in to it
For me is’t a fine simple game with depth. I will give it a chance to play. In the video there was really bad luck for Andy. But thats a dice problem not a game problem.
at 1st look the game looked like the dwarfs with there 4 dice seamed a bit overpowered but after watching how you play the game ive changed my mind and seems more balanced. i do think that there will be a big differance between new players vs experainced players for both sides but with even a simple house rule that the new player get say an extra few tokens for the dwarf player and mybe a few extra pile of bones for the undead player to even up the first few games for them.
as for this game i think andy forgot the 1st rule which is to complete the objective. yeah he did have bad dice roles for most of the game but in the end they where dice rolls he didnt have to take.
as for me buying this game i think i probally will (was put off with all the space hulk comparisons 1 game of GWs that i have never liked even with the lovely minis in the 3rd ed) as i like playing undead and bro loves playing as stumpies.also the fact that it doesnt seem like the games will take that long to play