Allies in Warhammer 40K 6th Edition
July 6, 2012 in 6th Edition Week, Featured, Games Workshop, SCI FI Wargaming, Warhammer 40K by darrell
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With the new rule book in hand Warren and Darrell have a look at who has become friends and will fight beside each other, but not all friends are equal and some you just don’t trust the guys have a look at how its going to change your game.
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@Darrel – How thinking about a combined force of Mordrak (Your fav) and a deathwing attack
I was thinking
Modrak
Belial with a termie squad and ravewning (fast support with anti armour and teleport homer)
Then just some normal GK units as normal like rifle dreads, strike squads, termie’s, ravens etc….
12 terminators on turn one without scatter (ravenwing supporting deathwing) or……..GK being the allies and more deathwing as the primary army.
I don’t understand why Tyranids couldn’t have allies; didn’t they use to have Genestealer cults and brood brothers in WH40K 2nd edition?
Hopefully we’ll see a WD mini list, but along with the other changes maybe when they did allies they had just gotten into the habit of shafting the nids and figured “why stop now?”
Only idea I have on this is GW hates Tyranids – fluff wise its justifable, unlike some of the alliances included.
Clearly not a balance issue as there are more unbalanced things in the book.
nids do not have to complain, charge ranges are better for them -> they have fleet (on the models that you want in cls cmb, the ones that don’t you wouldn’t normaly have assaulted any way) , for armor pen-> the trygon has 4 S10 ap 2 attacks with re-roll to hit and re-roll to pen, also for killing infantery he has poisond 4+ which is for models of T4 or less 2+ with a reroll
only thing what they can’t really do is bringing down fliers but that is why they can now take hive tyrand with wings S6 on side armor can even glance a stormraven, it isn”t great but it is something, they have a load of psykers (broodlord for example) that can now have better powers
shadows in the warp is the same so better than a psychic hood
no more fearless wounds
feel no pain is 5+ but works on anything except instakills so your T6 MC’s can now take it on AP 1 & 2 weapons
cover save for MC’s is now like infantery with area terrain
you can now glance any vehicle 4 times and it is destroyed while MC’s are just as hard to kill as before
MC’s are ones of the few AP2 cls cmb weapons that hit on I value so they are the only ones who will kill terminators and the likes before they can do something to you
if you still think the Tyranids are Underpowered or Nerfed than play an other game or collect an army that is totally overpowered and you probebly think that it is still underpowerd
Nids got worse for assault, overwatch means we get shot before combat. And random charges actually got worse for us. 5th ed. meant you had 6″ movement D6 fleet 6″ charge, so 12″+D6. Now its 6″+2D6. Same max distance with alot more range to get a lower result.
If I’m honest i understand why tyranids don’t have allies, the thing i would have done to balance this were to give tyranids allies with tyranids, essentially giving them the extra slot everyone else gets in the force org. chart.
Don’t get me wrong, tyranids arn’t dead, just handicapped compared to other armies. All the armies got better this edition, tyranids just not by the same magnitude.
@roguestar Our thoughts were that the Tyranid reliance on synapse makes them too difficult to play as allies.
Allan enemy has to do is target your synapse creatures and the army starts to fall apart. This is easier in the smaller sized ally force that may have fewer of them.
It’s the problem with the Tyranid army book, but simply focused into a smaller force.
Actually you can have more than 1 allied detachment.
“your army can include one allied detachment for each primary detachment in your army” meaning if you have more than 2000 points you can have 2 secondary detachments. But you can only have 1 ally below 2000 points.
That is my interpretation.
yeah, you could have more than 1 allied detachment as long as you have more than 1 primary detachment, but the 2nd primary det. has to take the same allied codex as the 1st ally
Idea of being able to take allies is interesting addition. This defenetly gives some extra options and allows wider selection that is needed with some armies like Tau that die fast in close combat without selection of specialiced units since 40k is so close combat heavy game.
I shall sign that petition Warren
I’m thinking tau with Grey Knights so I can use a Gundam as a Dreadknight…
Funny! I was also thinking that Gundam models would make wonderful Tau «super heavy battle suit».
Or a Titan ;D
I think it’s going to make for some very interesting and fun games as we not only have an increased amount of scenarios but now a far greater pool of armies that we could face or field ourselves.
.
It will good a easy route into starting a new army by slowly introducing units with your existing one.
Apart from nid players you won’t have to listen to people moaning when their army has been nerfed etc as they should now be able to do something about it, though thinking about it they’ll still gripe
ahem… Tervigons…
After I finished my Tau Farsight Enclave army, i started with something else – I take Tzeenthian list from Chaos Space Marine Codex (I love Thousand Sons fluff) and added for that some Tzeenth deamons – using rules for standard deamons form CSM codex. The number of deamons grow in numbers – so I could field them as an army from Chaos Deamons Codex – these are all Tzeenth models still, but if I think about allies now, it’s suddenly cheese hunting as for example Fateweaver as an ally for Thousand Sons – and you finish in all 4+inv re-rollable armour save. Someone correct me, but is now the aspiring champ a psyker lvl 1? is he still need to take powers from his list in the codex, if not it’s additional re-rollable to hit rolls with AP 3 bolters… My chaos army still looks good on paper fluff – wise, but it’s no fun to play with a friend, I personally prefere difficult challanges.
With Tau I’ll probably not use any allies as my commander is xenophobic – as I choose when making fluff for my list, the list is still good in my opinion, and don’t need 200 pts termies unit and additional 200 in SM Commander + some troops, when I need close combat power I choose 3 Hammerheads with flashette dischargers on board:)
concerning the GW marketing …I lately came to a nice conclusion ( I know most will not agree on that ^^ ) it all is point of view depending …what actually came to my mind is that this ally posibility actually is an opportunity to buy LESS modells then before
what I mean is …I am a HUGE fan of the Space-Orc-Modells ..its ike every single modell was designed to be an independant character they are just so full of life and character, they are literally oozing character …. BUT I am more into the background of Dark Eldar as fluff-wise they simply appeal more to me.
Beforehand I would have to buy 2 full blown armies to satisfy all of my needs( and to be able to play relatively well sized battles from 2000 points and up), now I can just concentrate on one ( being Dark Eldar) and just buddy up with some Orcs
And as I am more of an fluff guy I would give my allies some sort of general backgroudn idea rather then just picking the most hard hitting units available (probably something along the lines of Mek and his trusty creations – aka Lootaz some Killa-Kanz (as I simply LOVE those modells) and as troop choices 60 Grotz …which basically are the meks labour and of course a Fighta-Bomma )
would be something along the lines that my Dark Eldar tricked some Meks into helping them plunder some systems and trade routes …of course for the Dark Eldar the Orcs are merely more then a meatshield…. and well the Orcs ? they dont bother as long as the DE give them something to smash and loot ( to build more dakka dakka) they are happy.
That’s the orky spirit, dude!
That doesn’t sound like buying fewer units/models as much as it does a six-of-one/half-dozen-of-the-other situation. So yes, now you don’t have to buy as many Dark Eldar as you did before, but then you say you are going to buddy them up with Orks, which means you are buying Orks to replace the Dark Eldar, thus you are still paying at least as much money as normal, or at least in the ballpark. You definitely aren’t curbing your spending in any significant way (unless by coincidence you happen to already own all the best models for allying with your existing army).
That said, I think this will indeed lead to more purchases for most players, as they begin to see various options they haven’t before, and decide they need to fill those niches. And don’t discount players who ally, only to find out they really like their chosen allies, and decide to begin building an army with that faction. (Only to discover they really like how those guys ally with somebody else, thus causing them to start building that army, too, etc, etc.)
First of all I never said that GW would think about it this way, of course for them it might quite well be just another opportunity to make more money, but I said FOR ME its that way.
And then again youre wrong I will spend MUCH less money then before, because – as I said – beforehand I would have to buy two full armies of 2000pts each to play with them (and have a relatively fun sized game). Now I need to buy one COMBINED army of 2000pts to have the same amount of fun to play …thats 2000points less in modells (1000 per force ) I need to buy …. the math is so easy and so clear …so I really dont see how you could end up with a statement like “youre not going to spend less money”
but for the sake (and fun of it ^^ ) Ill work out the numbers for you:
ORCS (and bare in mind that this would be the kind of army I would buy/play if I had to buy 2000pts aprox. so the argument that there is a way to build a cheaper army in the first place wont work as this wouldnt be the army Id like to play and so I wouldnt buy it in the first place at all)
2000pts Orc Army:
2x Big Mek with forcefield – 40,50€
10x Lootas – 45€
60x Gretchins – 78€
60x Boys, 9x Waaghbikas (part of the Orc battleforce I would need 3 of them which would cost me 255€)
2x Fighta Bommas – 72€
1x Orc Stompa – 39€
3x Killa-Kans – 36€
—————————————-
TOTAL: 565,50€
with the cut outs for my desired 1000pts of orcs it would be
1x Big Mek with forcefield 20,25€
10x Lootas – 45€
60x Gretchins – 78€
1x Fighta Bomma – 36€
1x Orc Stompa – 39€
3x Killa Kans – 36€
—————————————-
TOTAL: 254,25€
which makes 310,25€ less then before, and for the sake of ending this argument ill do the math for my Dark Eldar as well :
2000pts Dark Eldar Army:
1x Archon (used as Sliscus) – 13€
30x Kabalite Warriors, 20x Wyches all embarked on a Raider which makes 5x Raider, 9x Reaver Jetbikes
–> you can get 20x Warriors 20x Wyches 2x Raider and 6x Reaver-Jetbikes out of two Battleforces – 170€ –> 10x Warriors – 23€, 3x Raider – 87€ 3xReaver Jetbikes – 31€
1x Ravager – 39€
2x Razorwing Jetfighter – 72€
—————————————-
TOTAL: 435€
with the cut outs for a 1000pts list this would be
1x Archon – 13€
20x Kabalite Warriors, 10x Wyches all embarked on a Raider which makes 3x Raider, 3 Reaver Jetbikes
–>you can get 10x Warriors 10x Wyches 1x Raider and 3x Reaver-Jetbikes out of one Battleforce – 85€ –> 10x Warriors – 23€, 2x Raider – 58€
1x Ravager – 39€
—————————————-
TOTAL: 218€
which is 217€ less then before …so in total instead of spending 1000.50€ on two 2000pts forces I now spend 472,25€ to have my needs satisfied to play a) with both armies I like and b) in a relatively fun sized game of 2000 points …whereas before I would have to either play smaller games or totally abandon one of the armies to play a well sized game.
So the conclusion is now I get to play with both armies I like , in fun sized games and I get to paint different kinds of modells without having to spend more then double the money to get the same FEELING and FUN out of it.
P.S. I know that neither of the armies would be awesomly good or competitive but i am not aiming for an competitive army I just want to play with armies I like and have my fun painting modells I like + in generell I just love the look of armies with lots and lots of troop choices and a small amount of other stuff to spice it up.
so long
Seb
Orc Stompa = Deff Dread ( sorry for taht fault, I am not familiar with all the english names of the modells ^^ )
So you’ll never add to either of these armies? Sure the initial purchase is cheap but rarely do people only stick with the first 2,000 points because opponents learn how to counter it and the army loses playability. One of the best things GW has going for it is that this is a game played by relativey intelligent people for the most part. Most fancy themselves as table top generals and as such learn their opponents armies as well as theirs. Without new additions and differing lists you’ll get a few weeks (if that, depending on how well it actually plays) of true gaming and then will see the competitiveness diminish as friends adapt. Long run, you are buying combinations from both armies, probably different paints and possibly conversion bits too… But good luck with a static 2k, it’d be interesting to see how long that lasts.
as unbelievably as this might sound for someone like you but yes I wouldnt add much more ^^ ..first of all I simply dont have the money to do so ( which is why I made the comment I made in the first place ..because spending some 480€ over the course of some years is ok for me but more then double the amount of money is not )
+ I am not interested if they figure out how to beat this army ^^ winning never was the idea behind that (as I myself stated clearly those armies arent very competitve, but thanks for pointing that out ….again ^^) if it would have been the case my DE army would consists of venoms 5 man squads and lots of blasters and haemonculi and Razorwings/Nightravens…buts thats of no interest to me ^^ ( I know – shocking! ) I am interested in armies that look good ( in my understanding ) and are fun to paint/play for me.
or ( concerning the competitive part ) a combination of Eldar+Dark Eldar and lots of jetbikes + Council of Seers+ DE Lords, as venoms arent that good anymore due to HP…
Until you realize that your DE detachment is well on it’s way to becoming a full army… and you decide to add to it, and eventually end up with two armies anyway.
this gives me an excuse to play the few IG models i have along side my marines, until i’ve got enough to make them a full army in their own right.
I’m not sure what you mean about someone like me, but if that means someone who buys additional pieces for their army and tries different things then I guess we are different. You should create a thread so you can report on the success of a static 2k list. I am interested in doing a couple armies but I truly can’t see the enjoyment of never adding to it.
I have two proper collections of 40k minis, not incuding random stuff I just buy to paint..
Blood Angels and Imperial Guard.
I’ve also recently bought a couple of boxes of mantic corporation guys that I really like.
I can now field all of them in one army . Thats good. Tactically , its probably not that much use to be honest, tanks will die fast in this edition (although I think they will keep firing to the bitter end this time, as opposed to sitting around forever with no guns in 5th), and with the new rage rules, my blood angels are pretty much entirely airborne assault, death company, assault troops , sanguinary guard and,stormravens.
They should be very effective in 6th as is, but having the guardsmen and tanks is just better for telling a story if not for combat effectiveness.
Right on,
My LGS stocks mantic love the orks as well
and I agree w/ blood angels
I suspect HQ’s that make elites troops will prove quite popular but i think I would take the giant meatshield option………troops win prizes
I love the idea of the Allies rules, though I do agree the table is god awful ugly. I also find it funny I get along better with Grey Knights than I do Dark Eldar with my Necron army.
In my circle of friends I am not playing competitive lists, My HQ is and always will be Trazyn the Infinite, so I play very Fluffy armies. With the New Allies rules I can craft my own little narative where Trazyn and his forces hang around or trail Ahriman and the few Sons still loyal to him. (Granted, I would be better off with something along the lines of Orks or Blood Angels to make my Close combat better.) It just strikes me as it fitting the Allies of Convenience rule fluff wise.
Trazyn flying about the galaxy looking for pieces for his collection, and Ahriman going about looking to gather as much knowledge about Tzeentch (And everything else for that matter) just struck me as mutually beneficial relationship.
Also who better to understand the non-psyker parts of the sons than Necrons? Soulless unfeeling things trapped in their power armor, only able to move at the sorcerers command is about on par with the stock standard warrior who if he was lucky MAYBE got to keep a memory of his past or a personality quirk of some kind.
Nurgle themed chaos space marines, with daemon allies consisting of epidemus one sqaud of plague bearers and a daemon prince with wings.
pretty powerful once it gets going.
Nurgle bikes are going to pretty damn powerful under the new rules
I totally want to do an army of cyborks that use Necron bits for their cyborkyness because their warboss has a deal with a Necron overlord to take any of the leftover Necrons that don’t get back up, and run a small detachment of those Necrons with the army.
Allies are agreat addition, so much fluff revolves around it and counts as opportunities are fantastic.
I was actually chatting to a GW staffer today about 6th ed armies, saying word bearers where possible as I could get my deamons back in properly then mentioned gaurd – and he said well why not do traitor gaurd they fit really well with Word Bearers. Really got me thinking about the options this opens up.
Interesting than Warren talked about playing allies v competive players as I really think this could be open to some massive abuse, which highlights my big problem with the current GW direction – saying its allabout the story is fine but all the time your game is imbalanced enough to allow such potent min/maxing you have a real problem with anything non-narrative. I am not above saying I won’t play someone as it won’t be fun but thats often just a source of tension
Shrike + Imperial Guard. Infiltrate a fully kitted out 50man infantry blob and proceed to FRFSRF the hell out of everything lol
Now idea what that means but infiltrators can’t assault first turn
…
However it would be fun to have the giant blob rush forward, conscripts would be awesome too
*No
Darrell, you do know a unit can only hold a single objective now? The big guardsman blob can’t hold three objectives!
Anyway, my allied unit of choice is a blood angels reclusiarch with death company. Reroll hits and wounds. Rage is actually a rule worth having now!
The Allies will be great for my Inquisitorial Guard Army, and for my modelling project I had in mind before I read the allies rule, which was to create some Eldar Renegade Pirates for my Inquisitor’s henchmen warband. For me it allows me to create all kinds of minis and to explore ideas in 40K even more. And buy what I want for my army too. The narrative and modelling possibilities are endless, woohoo!
For me it doesn’t make much sence to look for Elite, Assault or Support options. If you are looking for good uses of allies, I think the key is to check the HQs and Troop choices of your battle brothers. If they can do any task cheaper or better that is done by a codex unit in your army by now, it is wortth a closer look.
For my Imperial Guard army, all those psycher-HQs that can choose divination-powers looks interesting. They can turn a stationary 50-men guard squad behind an aegis line to a solid tarpit. As a bonus, they improve psy-defence. Grey knight troops can provide a good counter-charge unit, Blood angel scouts could provide a cheap outflanking troop choice to improve your mobility. I think Assault Marines are a bit too expensive for what they offer in the context of my IG Army. However, I’m looking forward to the Dark Angel release. Maybe they come with interesting troops. Still, I have to make space for at last 200 points to include that support. I’m still not sure whether its worth it.
I’m loving my aliies, i’ve gone for the Tau – Space Marine combo. (though lore wise I think it would make more sense if it was IG and Tau being battle brothers)
I have an Ironclad Dreadnought protecting my Firewarriors, Tau with an Ironclad! its like my greatest dreams realised.
I am with Darrel I love fluff and cinematic gaming, sadly the vast majority of people in my area are hardcore competitive must win players. So not much fun for my gaming styles. Allies fluff wise just call out for Chaos Marines and Chaos Demons.
Warren not Darrel. doh!
so chaos space marines with chaos deamons?
im seeing 3 deamon princes and 1 grater deamons and a summoned grater deamon hear lol!
I really like the idea behind this rule. Back in 5th edition (not so long ago), I decided to build my own game table. I also decided that it would tell a story of its own. The game table would represent the last defenses of a planetary defense army (guards) fighting a huge ork invasion (my two armies). I also thought it would be appropriate to have a small contingent of Space Marines answering the poor guards’ distress call through the immaterium so, I started collecting a small Space Marines force to add to my guards when playing Apocalypse.
Now, it’s possible in a regular game! I’m so happy!
Good stuff we’ll be able to field forces from the pages of Black Library
im loving the allies rules as i have so many small armys dotted about because there are so many darn cool models out there now that i can shove them together makes it infinitely better. last night i took a tau/necron allied army of 1500 pts (tau 1000, necrons 500) and it worked really well. it just gave my tau a reanimation protocol wall of awesome. it gave me so much time to mow down tanks and troops with my fire warriors and broadsides.