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December 4, 2012 by darrell
Video Sponsors: Wayland Games – Battle Foam
Are you having trouble with snap fire while assaulting? Darrell takes a moment to discuss some of the ways to improve your odds.
That was a nice one. I usually play Imperial Guard, so I thought about charge distances just from the perspective of the defender by now. I’d say that I benefit from a messed up chargeroll of my opponent in two of three games. Of course it depends on the IC you use, but I guess in the most cases it is definetly worth to risk the guy. Defintely better than leaving your guys unengaged another turn in front of an Executioner or so.
It also made me think again about your tip to give invulnerable saves to assault squad-seargeants. It did not convince me then, but from that perspective…
Been using this technique since about 2 weeks after the new edition came out. Use it with a Destroyer Lord and Wraiths as the big man suggested, and also with a lycheguard squad with an overlord and lord-with-orb attached to the unit. 2 points:
1. Its risky if ur man at the front is your commander as, amasingly, it is possible to roll a 1 on a d6. Its also possible to do it twice (beating his save)! 2. It works best if the point man has a 2+ and his wing man (closest guy) has a decent inv. That way the point man can eat the small arms fire, while the lascannon shots etc, get handed over his shoulder. I’ve had entire armies with all types of shooting cause like, 1 wound to 1 wraith in their shooting phase using this strategy.
I was thinking about the “pile-in” that Daryl used to get his Terminators into combat.
The rule says that ENGAGED models pile in at their initiative step.
As most of his models weren’t engaged (maybe only the first regular Termie) I don’t think they’d be able to pile in, I THINK it works that if you aren’t engaged after the initial charge then you don’t get to fight.
The rule says that models not already in base contact with an enemy model must make a pile in move (p.23). So the Termies piling in was fine.
Look back a bit.
Pg 22 says “Work your way through…models ENGAGED in the combat …” The subsequent Pile in is during the Initiative Step.
Yep – that’s for working out which Initiative Steps to work through. As long as there’s a single engaged model at that step then the other unengaged models get their pile in move as per p. 23.
I’m sure that is what is intended but it isn’t what is written. I mean what happens if your I1 models are engaged after the charge but your I10 models aren’t.
The I10 models wouldn’t get to attack in that case. They would move 3″ in the end of combat pile in (p.27) and hopefully be engaged for the next turn.
I see this just a further example of the really poor wording and proof-reading from GW but it works the way Daryl played it. As misterq has said it’s on page 23 but it reads “any modei whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step, that isn’t already in base contact with an enemy model, must a Pile In move.”
Further to that condition, the last ones you move, reads “any models Pile In if this will bring them to within 2″ of a friendly model in base contact with an enemy”
Now, putting the two together, if you are neither in base-to-base or within 2″ of a friendly model in base to base then by definition you are not engaged in combat so going on the part you referenced in page 22 you would not count these models for pile in or combat yet here we have some quite explicit instructions telling you that you MUST make that 3″ move for models at their initiative step that, by definition, aren’t engaged in combat.
Not sure if this was FAQ’d but you could legitimately take the RAW argument that you can’t apply these steps to a model that is unengaged because the preceding instruction on page 22 tells you only to apply the instructions to models that are already engaged but I think given that a) there’s clear instructions given for a situation that it couldn’t apply to if you hold that to be true and b) the whole purpose is to get as many models engaged in combat as possible then taking that stance is more than a little silly
Annnnnd having spend the time thinking out the logic and typing that it is indeed succinctly cleared up in the FAQ “Work your way through the Initiative values of the models in the combat, starting with the highest and ending with the lowest.”
The word engaged was dropped in page 22, problem solved
Good pick up @yarr, I’d seen that FAQ but not realised the significance
Why is there a second roll of saves? The first roll was fine – one fail, which would normally kill the character but the Look Out Sir bumps it to the next closest. That’s all there is to it – the other guys don’t need to roll saves again. Also, the Chaos Marines shouldn’t be moving until their initiative step. They shouldn’t be piling in straight after the terminators have finished their assault move (you might be thinking of 5th edition).
Don’t know if the order of the dice roles are correct either. I’ll have to check out the rule book myself especially on the look out sir rules.
It should be: 1. Roll to hit and wound 2. Termies all have the same 2+ save, so roll all saves together 3. Allocate unsaved wounds starting with closest model 4. If one of those unsaved wounds is on a character then they can make a Look Out Sir roll to pass the wound to the closest friendly model
They do all this in the video, but then pick up the wound dice and roll a second armour save for some reason.
Yeh looks like a bit of silver screen nerves there, there actually shouldn’t have been anyone die.
He failed a single armour save, so one unsaved wound needed to be allocated. That would normally go to the closest model (the character), but the Look Out Sir roll bumps it back and the second closest character would take the wound and die. The end result was the same, there was just an extra dice roll.
I see what he does now. When he rolls for “Look Out Sir” Daryl says he has one save to make and rolls a 6.
Just a mix up in the words.
Yeah, the “one save to make” is the 2+ Look Out Sir for the Independent Character. It’s not really a save but we know what he means. He passes that by rolling a 6, which should bump the unsaved wound to the next model who should have been removed immediately. Instead, he makes another bunch of armour saves and removes a model from a fail in that second roll.
Didn’t he mention the IC was a Sanguinary Priest, in which case was he rolling FNP on the second roll that was ‘Look our Sir’d?
LOL – now it’s even more confusing.
He should have rolled FNP, but I think it was just the Look Out Sir. He certainly didn’t roll FNP for the model that ended up dead.
Maybe in the next edition of 40k the marines are allowed a back off move and use their guns instead of going medieval by “piling in” with rusty knives (its a slow process for GW) … still hoping for a more realistic 40k, but it will probably never happen.
But I think that if anyone gets to within assault distance of you, I don’t think yuu could walk back(Only way to fire effectively while moving) and stay out of range.
The only chance you’d have if you tried to run away would be for half to fire and the others run back a “tactical bound”. They then cover fire when the other break and run.
It is however a very good way to get yourself killed.
Standing firm and shooting then pile-ining in is your best chance of winning/survival from a real life perspective.
GW in this regard, like the vast majority of their rules, have got it right.
they have a looong long way to getting things right imo, it is a stiff and mediocre rule system with some really cool miniatures. Fantasy can use excessive melee combat with a good concience, im having a hard time digesting the focus on it in 40k,
In the Big Rule Book you are allowed to take a Look Out Sir! attempt before or after attempting to save the wound, but the FAQ changed it so that you can only Look Out Sir! during the allocation step before attempting to make a saving throw. This makes your characters slightly more vulnerable since you no longer can use their better save and then pawn your failures off onto lackeys.
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