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January 24, 2013 by warzan
Video Sponsors: Battle Foam – Wayland Games
Now for the real meat of this codex with the elites, and maybe a rant or two over the Games Workshop errata coming out 4 days after the release of the new book…
Yay, been waiting all day for this
Why buy a combi-weapon when you can get a plasmagun/meltagun for the same cost? Only reason I can think of is you are running the standard of devastation and are hoping for salvo fire…
After reading through the codex and watching the vid’s this week, I’m thinking that we were better off with the 4th edition codex………That’s how much I’m disappointed with this new one. There are NO Stand out unit/s that are really must includes in this codex. Mat Ward…why oh why didn’t you write our codex you bugger!
The majority of the new unit’s are just meh…look at the fliers and plasma speeder. They cut and pasted the rules for the Vet squad straight out the 4th ed dex into the 6th ed one and then had to release a faq to chance it.
I’m so utterly disappointed and disgusted with this codex.
I’ve got a sneaky idea that were the test bed codex for the 6th ed space marines codex AGAIN! They will have most of what we have (minus the deathknight/ravenknight units) at a more than likely cheaper cost…AGAIN!!!!!!
GW just couldn’t be bothered.
But hey, that’s just my opinion, not that it’s worth much
But… that’s rather the point. Hugely overpowered units are unbalancing and pointless. The new codices are balanced and provide plenty of options to give players thematic armies. I do agree that the flyer is over costed.
They are bothered, just towards creating fun not pandering to the ‘I must win at all costs’ (and no, I am not saying you are) player.
I agree 110% with you guys in this video… and sadly, it has nothing to do with the army you are reviewing. As Darryl said, years ago, you got an army book or codex for either WH of WH40 and you had a book. Now, you buy the book and then log on to GW website for the FAQ’s and updates, print them off, check back a few weeks later. Why not spend longer on the book to make them right first time? Also, Warren, again, I agree. Throwing the books out with so little playtesting, or in many cases now, pressing ‘F7′ for spell-check is just shoddy on GW’s part. I think GW are starting to show some of their colours to their staff and fans, and its not good. Andy, where is your moan?!!!
Other than that, I feel some of the Elites in this book are just page fullers (but every army has them) but maybe one or two could be tricky in a battle.
P.S. Can we get our paws on the first-take of the Elites video, or is that locked away somewhere?
EEk. was hoping for something to shine from the elite section. I suppose elite means something else in the GW dictionary!
I can’t imagine GW putting up the cash to replace all the codecs, but I think they should due to the HUGE errors. Maybe even cash back imho. that way at least people will be able to start a different army if they are still interested. Or is the book so poor BECAUSE they want those DA players to invest in a new army?????? /ponders
First of all Land Raiders don’t have to have Deathwing vehicle. It’s in the Errata you had with you.
I actually like Deathwing knights to be honest, I disagree with a lot of what you’ve said, as you’ve only mentioned negatives. They have AP4 vs anyone that’s not CSM, sure. They also have Hammer of Wrath in the charge, strike in initiative order, they have a WS of 5, not an amazing buff but they still hit the vast majority of units on 3s with that instead of 4s. Precision strikes is actually really useful as I’m sure you all actually know. They’re cheaper than TH/SS terminators and I would say a strong alternative. Don’t really think you’ve given them even half a chance.
With T5 they can benefit from FNP if you have a banner nearby vs anything S9.
In fact vs TH/SS terminators: An extract from a post on another website, all credit to he who said it (Tednugent.. his forum name on dakka dakka)
“A 5 man unit of PF/SB or TH/SS Terminators will slightly defeat them in combat if they don’t use smite. 4 DW Knights + Knight Master vs 5 TH/SS: Knights .66*.83*.16*11 = .96 wounds TH/SS .5*.83*.33*2*4 = 1.09 wounds Knights w/ Smite vs TH/SS .66*.83*.33*11 = 1.98 wounds”
So the DW Knights are slightly worse than TH/SS in a 1v1 unless they use Smite mode and the Knights are also far better vs hordes.
I’ve enjoyed all of your videos so far, but I think you’ve not been too fair about the so called tickle sticks. Don’t forget what hitting on 3s does, they’ve got the saves to be a tarpit themselves. They give the +1T to anyone with the “inner circle rule” which means:
Deathwing assault in a unit of these guys. Then DWA in Belial’s squad with their bases touching just behind these guys and both the squads have T5 for that turn if you can get the majority in base to base, which is easy enough. As they’ve used deep strike so they’re going to be touching bases anyway at that point.
They’re a threat people will fear, no one will want to see that smite mode used, especially on anything with T5 and multiple wounds.
I agree on the rest more or less, especially with the thought that GW should recall the book.
I can see why you dislike the lack of imagination in that DWK rule for +1T, but you’ve not given them a chance or thought about what they bring to an army. For me the only reason to take TH/SS over them is a cyclone, but it’s a points sink when I can get plenty missiles & lascannons elsewhere.
I was just about to write the exact same thing. I couldn’t agree more with what you said.
There’s also the other side that in battles against ‘that unit; that you want to nobble you up to S10 AP2 and wipe the floor.
There’s also noting that you don’t have to take Deathwing Knights. You could take just normal terminators…
I have been using the Knights with great success. The T5 can really help on the turn they deepstrike. That mass bolter fire they may be taking now needs 5′s to wound. Also in CC if you position them properly they can be T5.
Plus they look AWESOME! I put my Terminator Librarian with Prescience in the unit and give them the Relic (Adamantium will gives +1 on Deny the Witch). SO they are generally a 4+ on Deny Witch rolls.
As said in the unboxings, I really like the new terminator box, price aside, I quite fancied the knights as a modelling project, and kind of hoped with the allies thing I could make an angels of death army together with my blood angels, as I loved that particular codex.
Its sad that they aren’t really up to much , and all told, would probably be a downgrade on whatever they would replace from a full Blood Angels list, aside from looking so nice.
I agree with GW’s craptastic quality control now a days. For the veteran’s give them bolt pistal and plasma guns (gunslinger’s) with a Libby in drop pod Libby has prescience and the invul field. Or azreal and give them lightning claws or lightning claws and storm shield all drop pods. I love the gunslinger’s though plus the have three attacks 4 on the charge.
Simply doesn’t work when you drop 30 terminators beside 80 termagants, genestealers and monstrous creatures.
I’m sorry, you’re just going to have to change tactics and play better with the new codex!
Hi guys, entertaining vid – I think I’ll wait until the end of the week to post all my thoughts but for now I think you’re missing a trick with how the units in the book can compliment one another.
It’s like you’re gathering ingredients and tasting them on their own merits – some are too bitter, others too sweet, some too bland, some simply poisonous etc. Try mixing them up and see what you get. You missed the effect of rad grenades and statis grenades from the Black Knights on units and how you could then get the Deathwing in to shoot them lots, before the Black Knights charge in with their rending weapons for example…
Not that this affects me much personally, I just think you can try and be a little more creative with what’s put in front of you rather than condemning each ingredient based against the best you’ve ever tasted.
Play with your food!
I agree. There IS some flavour in there. And, Darrell… I’m the kind of guy who would wait on turn two to deep strike those terminators on you. (Let’s say… just after your first reserves have shown up.)
Don’t forget that you can’t (in 6th ed.) keep more than 50% of your force in reserve so you will have to get things on the table at the start of the game. That’s why you’ll g=have to mis and match units that can complement each other.
I agree. I also love your food analogy
Completely agree, I think the power of the book comes from interractions rather than out right cheese units. Will feedback more after the week ends.
Oh and more rants please, GW deserves all the crap they get for poor calls and quality.. In fact rather than GW all compies that turn out crap and don’t respect the customers.
Great videos guys. Very much agree with nogginthenog, I bought the DA Terminators to convert to Sons of Sanguinius, already removed the winged swords and replaced the shoulder pads with FW winged blood drop, armour will look great in RED.
why not use the Blood Angels terminators from Space Hulk? BA got their nice termies long before DA came out.
Hi wufai, yes I agree have those painted up as well, nice figures!
Great news from GW for me. I received an email today to inform me they had despatched my Codex and deathwing command squad yesterday. Strange as picked up both from the store on release day. I’ll pop down tomorrow you never know your luck. I bought the command squad as I liked the look of the knights, thankfully I haven’t built them yet so will probably go with the new command squad for now and maybe do the knights at a later date.
I’m a bit in two minds on the knights…
Belial with them deep striking so pinpoint drop next to the opponent should stop the assault terminators being kited problem a little so that works for both TH/SS or Knights.
In a Knights against TH/SS Terminators battle its going to be a stalemate if they don’t blow smite… if the Knights get the charge and blow smite they probably take the win.
For me I have built some up as knights but will probably build some up as TH/SS Terminators (Lop off the Maul head and replace with a hammer and jobs a good’un) and then i can see whatever takes my fancy at the time.
I feel Knights are a bit more durable to shooting and can bog people down in combat. They aren’t as threatening as TH/SS Terminators but then lets be honest how are most people going to deal with TH/SS Terminators anyway?
I do think that the AP4 maces on the Knights are such a let down, the other stuff is ok but if the maces had been AP3 then at least they would kind of be a bit more inline with wolf guard terminators or grey knight terminators for their cost.
Pulp the book! Why does Jeremy Vetock hate the Deathwing?
The army has gone from unplayable below 1500 points to unplayable below 1750 points and with the current rules set the only viable army tactic that I can see is a turn two deathwing assault.
The rationale is this: at 1500 points at best you will have 26 things wearing terminator armour and you will need to rob your opponent of one turns worth killing these fragile things in order to have any chance at winning! After all 100 small arms shots vs 26 things that can’t roll ones, I’d bet on the small arms.
I am currently talking to my lawyer to see what can be done about the crap that just arrived on my doorstep today. As far as I’m concerened the merchantibility of these items comes down to the quality of the rules set and the rules set is worth f all. If GW wish to commit commercial suicide then they are certainly going the right way about it as they will get no repeat business from me!
I disagree. You could write a perfectly usable Ravenwing or Deathwing army and play it well.
What about 4 x Ravenwing attack squads with (man on jetbike in landspeeder), that gives you 12 bikes each with a plasma gun, 4 landspeeders with typhoons and 4 attack bikes with multimeltas. That’s character and fun. If you want an auto win hammer (which people seem to) that’s just daft. 6th is all about drama, and the codex provides that aplenty.
Talking to your lawyer? Dear life man.
Another typical GW approach to their buisness model change rules/codex every few years to get the mass’s to empty their wallets for little or no change to printed content bar more fluff. No interest in quality of product ( how hard is it to spell check now days) hoping noone notices. My advice to the younger generation, find an older version online and use those they still play as good if not better/more enjoyable (cheaper to) If you then want a game at one of the GW shops go in and ask them to help write an up to date list while in shop.
My advice is visit the forge world website and get imperial armour. Makes every army so much more interesting! fair point though, they could do better, a lot better, especially in terms of rules balance
I get a sneaking suspicion that when the majority of the codices are released for 6th we are going to see just how important allies are for proper lists. So far CSM and DA have proven to have no game breakers by themselves. Even the whole “from this codex” thing is a bullet to the head for so much potential synergy. Thoughts?
Allies should be there to add character and story lines. Not to give players the ability to win at all costs. Such is petty behaviour.
Not having any game breakers is a ruddy good thing. Chaos Space Marines and Dark Angels have both allowed the cration of very fluffy, thematic armies. Yes, an errata days after is embarrassing but the alternative is a codex every two months instead of a month and we’d all complain about that.
It seems we’re never happy. Personally, I’m playing a 4th ed codex (daemons) and a 5th ed oldish (Imperial Guard). Both are excellent and when 6th came out I adapted and won by better tactics not by my opponents having an auto win unit – which never does. Heck, I’ve seen players with Grey Knights desperate to play my daemons then near cry when they’re wiped aside because they wanted to win, not play and took grey knights for that reason, not for the fluff (which is absurd).
I think allies are there to add depth and to provide synergy on a different level that the game has ever seen. I agree I don’t think there is an autowin with them I just believe that they are a big part of the direction that the Game developers are going in the 6th edition. It makes for a much more complex (potentially) meta in the casual arena which is where I am firmly planted.
Yup – our next game is me with daemons and dark eldar allies – we’ve invented some fluff that the Dark Eldar open a gate on to a tyranid world and set the daemons off fighting first….
I like the idea of allies – less so that they’re as restrictive as they are (1 of everything bar troops) as you may want to re-create some mad battle such as the Grey Knights and Sisters vs daemons and nids, for example but hey.
Let’s be honest: it’s about GW selling more models
Thanks for saving me money guys. Now I just gotta figure out what to do with all my DA models.
Buy the codex, read the errata and write a new list?
I still love Dark Angels. I find this product was not of the quality I expect from GW in terms of a lot of errors they had in the print, which they seemed to have noticed very quickly. It was a poor show which just proves they’ve not proofed it properly, very unprofessional.
However in terms of rules the only things I would say I dislike are the cost of the Land Speeder Vengence, as it either needs more or needs to cost a LOOOOT less (it’s burst fire mode is a weak demolisher and it costs more than a vindicator, with less HP and lower armor, for what? A heavy bolter and a jink save at AV 10? no thanks). It’s burst mode is 3 shots at S7 AP2 for the cost of a predator anniliator (3x lascannons), again… no thanks.
Also the flyers are pricey for what they can do, but that’s mostly because of a comparison to other army list flyer models, these are actually not too bad, just too expensive.
I would have liked some more customisation from the characters, but really there is rather plenty, mostly I just wish Azrael was Eternal warrior.
Point is, I’ll still be fielding Dark Angels, this list can still be competitive. It’s just that their shiny new toys aren’t the way to go for that competitive level.
All that said I’ll still field a vengence from time to time because I’m of the opinion that the model is amazing. From what I’ve seen online so far, people have taken to it like marmite, they either love it or they hate it; I love it.
Just wait until the 6th edition grey knights codex. those deathwing terminators probably won’t look so bad then!
I feel that the main point is being lost here, GW have created all their games for 2 reasons, 1 to make money and 2 well 2 is far more subjective, but it is to play and have fun! If you want an army to win everything, then you forget the fluff and history and go spend alot of money to get the right codex and unit, exactly the same as the top players do everytime a new set for Magic the Gathering is released! Some codex’s will never be top tier, but are usually far more fun to play, same as for some decks for MTG. Do I think this codex is a vast improvement, no, not really, but it does introduce some pretty cool game mechanics and nifty moves which if work are ace, and if don’t you die! Me, i’ve played Dark Angels for 25 years, and i’m still enjoying it today
For me I’ve like the command squad, I know they only get 5 men but they work out a lot cheaper and can take better kit
Belial is the master of the deathwing – he would’ve had to work his way up the ranks
How come when you give him the storm shield and hammer he doesn’t get ‘Fortress of shields’
That would’ve added some flavour a little lol
He does get it. In the rules for Fortress of Shields it says “Any model with the Inner Circle special rule in base contact with atleast 2 models with this special rule recieve +1 toughness.” I dont think you even need to give him a storm shield as long as he is base contact with 2 Knights.
lol attach master of ravenwing to the knights then he could have T6
Random thoughts on the ‘dex:
Well. I’m going to reserve judgement on the DW knights till i’ve played them. – they have a great advantage over usual termies in being able to fight on initiative (much more of an advantage in 5th edition against all those power weapons…doh) – plus the maces are going to usually wound infantry on 2s, thunder hammers with their strength 8 were usually overkill – although i’ll lose their tactical flexibility to take out armour easily (but that’s what the smte mode covers)
As a DW army player, I’m as bit annoyed that the DW advantage over normal marines, mixing CC and ranged weapons in a 5 man squad is more expensive, but maybe that was a bit OTT, having many squads with CML and TH/LCs give lots of problems to my opponents, and its a bit more sensible now. I agree with Warren that its good that at last I can field a 10 man DW squrd, but I’m more likely to keep more smaller squads for flexibility, but may add 1 or 2 more models to absorb damage, especially if armed with TH/SS.
I like the codex as it remind me of the flavour of 2nd and 3rd editon (ok im getting old!), as one of the few (it seems) players of the old DA codex, rather than playing green space marines(!) it sorts out the old codex problems of always being a unit down compared to vanilla marines due the points imbalance. Now at last I have a chance to use ravenwing without having to spend a fortune in points just to field a squad of two. The codex seems more like the last DA codex – service pack 1 – it was annoying that it encouraged you to use DW or RW, but if you did in a 1,500 or 1750 point game, you struggled with points, that this fixes.
House rules I think are needed to put the interest into this codex, going by what’s said (I’m more interested in the fluff in a codex anyway). Make up your own rules that adds some flavour to anything that sounds like it has a less than exciting effect in the game.
I do agree about the FAQ though. People have waited years for a new Dark Angels codex, and when GW finally decides to write one, they bring out a FAQ several days later. It really does take the piss and just goes to show how those in charge of GW don’t actually care about their customers and are instead just interested in pushing whatever they can out of their warehouses without attention to detail, so long as they make money off their initial influx of orders. The gits. Nice artwork and though, lol.
But I don’t understand: it’s either get stuff out quickly or take ages over it. We can’t have it both ways!
It took them 2 days to release an Errata. I don’t mind waiting an extra 2 days.
Great cast – I agree 100% that codexes are getting more and more “safe” and GW instead of playtesting just try to write safe … This is sad the gaming company that got me into table top games is going down in flames. At least ive got Infiniti and FoW
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