Thanks for this episode. The deeper topics are well worth an explore and I’m also enjoying following the comments as they unfold. On the topic of games as art I’m happy to accept that any human creation that engenders an emotional response is art. As such does this mean that there is a “fine art” element in games?
To explain this; it is possible to contend that there are human works which have a greater appreciable intrinsic artistic value than others (e.g. The Mona Lisa has more to offer as a piece of art than the picture I painted of my house when I was five). These things that are subject to curation and institutionalisation can be labelled as fine art. One definition of fine art is: “products … appreciated primarily or solely for their imaginative, aesthetic, or intellectual content”. If OTT is the institution which intends to curate games as art do you feel that there are games which qualify as fine art. I’d love to hear the panel’s response to this (but assuming they would be in agreement) I’m more interested to hear what games you identify as “fine art games”. Would Bycatch, Train and even Kingdom Death: Monster qualify? Given how you have described playing these games I would say they do qualify as “fine art games”.
What other games could be considered as “fine art”?

Morning everyone, my frank feedback is whilst this was a very interesting topic and everyone was very well informed it just quite a departure from the relaxed, fun and interactive nature of what I think the XLBS should be. I totally get the point of trying new things and support it but personally for me it is amiss, I know there is a desire to have more of a podcast nature but honestly, this probably should have only been an audio cast as I had no reason to look at the screen (plus point is I got some painting done, negative is means I was half listening and did not feel involved).

For me, life is already full of complex issues and I don’t need to also bring this into the hobby. Accept that everyone has what they enjoy and don’t enjoy if you enjoy something fill your boots but don’t harm anyone along the way and if you don’t enjoy something stay away from it (i know this is black and white but I need this for me to stay as a game/hobby).

A deep topic for a Sunday morning and so I have left the show with more of a frown than a smile which is certainly different.

I really like the new format for XLBS. While I always enjoyed the previous incarnation, we really had two episodes of the same show every weekend. This is now two very distinct shows with different flavours, its a great idea.

Also, because I watched the ‘meet the team’ XLBS late and didn’t have time to comment, just want to say that this episode and that one both showed that the there are a bunch of very talented people in the team now, its really impressive.

I still miss Daryl though.

Happy Sunday, everyone! 🙂

The whole Games are (not) Article discussion is very interesting. I think Art depends on its viewpoint. To a Mathmatician numbers and formulas can contain beauty and there is often the point made that Musci is mathmatics, and if we go to music everybody has a certain taste and a lot of Music that would not meat our personal standard would not be art in our eyes, or as a lot of people say its commercialised as a sell out.

Returning to games as art, I would like to raise the example of Hate, which is based on an highly acclaimed Graphic Novel, however there was a lot of discussion about the theme which caused a lot of people to not back it as they thought the theme to mature, which in turn caused a lot of people to back it just to p… off other people.
( I backed it because I liked the Art and miniatures, and that theme does not bother me. ) However the discussion itself was on the Internet fought with a lot off heart and went a good few times to far, but in the kickstarter the comments are among the most friendly and civilised for any project.

I also think even if components could be art by themselves, a game is always art because it entertains us and makes us think about it, if it’s the theme or solvinga problem. And all other art is also entertaining because it tries to make us think about it or a problem.

And last argument is that things we consider nowadays art have not always been considered that and in times even considered bad, comicbooks, films, videogames are all considered art nowadays, they tell stories, but then they first came to the mass market thye where all considered childish, damaging, and most important off all giving bad ideas and destroying or corrupting young minds, and in certain areas off the world some off them are still considered this, usually by religious or fanatic people.
Which brings us to Goodwins law: Nazis burned books, nowadays a lot of people burn their tabletop armies because the game company does something they don’t like, similar to burning flags or merchandise (Nike), just remember what happened then GW switched to AoS from WhFB.

Regarding the format and the show:
I did really enjoy the format of the discussion as well, please give us more of that and I think that is great extra ind epht content for the Backstagers. But as said somewhere else:
Get pop-filters for the mics 😉

I quite like this new format, it’s good to see a serious discussion on deeper topics that doesn’t descend into a “who can shout loudest” contest. On cards against humanity I agree with Warren on the Jade Goody card, it’s one of two that I’ve removed from my set, the other being a card that refences the Hilsbourough disaster.

I don’t know how I feel about the slight injection of politics in this episode. I personally come here to watch and listen about companies and their games, while having a nice discussion about it. It’s a way to get myself out of the over serious nature of politics in my day to day life. Sometimes it’s unavoidable, like the Auschwitz game example, as well as the drone strike game. I’m just hoping this doesn’t also go the way of other entertainment mediums. Examples being Star Wars/movies, Magic the Gathering, comic books, Battle Field 5/video games, etc. They are delving way too much into politics. I’m sure this place won’t become like them, but I still worry. Also, I don’t care which side of the fence you are on, I just don’t believe it should be pushed in unnecessary places.

Discussions of philosophy, like “are boardgames art,” are more what I am wanting instead. It’s a serious topic, but not so deep that I need to stop the video, go about my day a little, then sit down to watch the rest. Something that makes us think deeper into these things are great jump off points.

One last thing. Isn’t XLBS an “unplugged” type of show? It’s a place where you can sit back, relax, and just enjoy your hobby. This doesn’t feel like XLBS of the past. I know Warren stated that things change and all, but this feels like a massive direction change. This type of deep talks may need a show of its own. That’s extra work though and I wouldn’t want the editors to be swamped further.

Other than that, I look forward to where this type of content could go. I just request that you all don’t forget your roots. It’s. Just. A. Game. Hahaha.

I’ve talked about this on here before, specifically about games which “deal with” the issue of mental illness. “Deal with” is in quotation marks because in some cases there has been no attempt to deal with the issue, but rather to exploit it for a cheap laugh.

In summary, my position is that nothing is off limits to games developers as source material, but if you chose to take something on, you have a duty to deal with it sensitively and to not treat it exploitatively. Using this game as an example, I don’t feel that they are able to justify their use of lazy cultural and ethnic stereotypes for entertainment putposes. They may have been able to if the game was ABOUT the use of lazy cultural stereotypes, and this formed social commentary or satire. That doesn’t seem to be the case here though. They have either failed to do any research, or have decided to use shorthand which may give offence purely for entertainment purposes, and therefore accusations of cultural appropriation are likely to be justified.

Whether or not board games are art is almost a side note as far as I’m concerned. I don’t believe defining something as art distinguishes it from entertainment or leisure activities (if you subscribe to the view that there is any distinction to be made) with regards to your obligation to treat your subject matter and your community or the consumers of your product with respect.

Artists have an obligation to do that too. I think we are just prepared to give anything defining itself as art more leeway in that we assume the artist is operating with sufficient intellectual subtlety that depictions or performances which may appear deeply insensitive may be making an important point, and therefore it may be justified.

This is true, but it’s also elitist to assume the same can’t be true of other forms of entertainment, or decoration which may not meet many people’s definition of art. The key is to assess any work on its own merit, not according to standards applied to a category we feel it falls into.

Proud to be a Backstager today, very well done to all. Sensitively handled and thought provoking. Normally if I miss an XLBS I don’t often get time or inclination to go back and watch it… if this format continues i’ll go out of my way to catch up!

My thoughts on Manitoba would be that it makes me cringe but I would just not buy it and wouldn’t play it if someone had it. It’s the same as games that produce content that is heavily “Male Gaze” oriented, it disappoints me that it still occurs (a lot) but some people like it. I wont promote those systems by spending money on them and have zero interest in playing them… even if the rule set is considered top notch.

Great that the whole team is being brought into XLBS, more voices and opinions are a good thing.

Art is personal and it’s not our place to condemn others tastes, but we can all vote with our feet. At the end of the day game design and production are a business and the best/only way to de-platform (in my opinion) is by choosing not to fund. If nobody buys, the company will stop producing the product, but if enough people disagree and it is financially viable then so be it… I just wont partake.

Far too serious and deep for my Sunday morning viewing I’m afraid.

I approve and like this topic and hope you do more. Introspection is always good. Comic books, video games, movies etc. have all had the scrutiny.

My only issues as were stated in the video is the crowd always ready to be offended and the “mob”. We all seem to forget that we all have choices. If something offends you so much you can always change the channel, not purchase the product or simply walk away. When we start asking for things to be banned, censored or not spoken about we all loose because censorship feeds on itself and more and more becomes censored. There are still groups in the USA and around the world whose sole purpose is have certain books to censored, removed and eliminated from history. In the USA a frequent target is Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. Sadly a former senator of my state leads one of the groups and I have personally helped fight my local library from removing certain books because someone may be offended.

The “mob” is powerful. Even in Britain, the South Yorkshire Police recently tweeted “In addition to reporting hate crime, please report non-crime hate incidents,” they pleaded. These non-crimes include “things like offensive or insulting comments, online, in person or in writing.” and several people in the area have already been put into prison for the offense of “rude” and “offensive” speech. Meaning someone from your team could be arrested because some was offended about Justin chopping off the family jewels on some of those plastic models discussed in previous episodes. I hope it does not come to this with board games but it could. This is why discussion and freedom of expression is important. We cannot succumb to the “mob”

I also hope that all sides of a discussion are considered. In the case of Bycatch, yes, the game speaks to civilians that are killed by drone attacks. A tragedy I agree. There is always a fog in war and information is not always perfect. Many are killed by mistake or even from friendly fire. As someone who has a nephew who is in Afghanistan, a recent predator strike helped eliminate a crude communication facility that was helping the Taliban attack Afgan and US soldiers. I am sure the strike may have killed Taliban fighters as well as non-combatants but it has also given the soldiers 3 months of relative safety they did not have before. All aspects should be considered in these discussions. We fail as a community if we choose like the “mob” to have a narrow view.

I hope the future topics also discuss games as tools not just for social justice reasons, but also for team building. I use games even with the teams I manage specifically for team building and problem solving. In IT you need to be creative and I found games as a way for people to think outside of the box.

There is also the social aspect of how always on digital lives have made people more anxious, depressed, anti-social and has actual shown to increase suicide in teens. The book iGen details it best. Board games are way of unplugging. I find a lot new younger employees who have spent so much time communicating via a screen cannot deal with talking to people face to face. It can be seen from just the fact they cannot look at you in the face when the speak. We have had to have programs to help these young people to relate to people face to face. I again, use board games that have high interaction to help them to learn to work with people. I know it is easy to look at “train” but there are other social aspects that should be considered and the role that board games may play.

Finally, as was also stated, I hope “fun” is not forgotten. I use games as an escape. My daily job is high pressure and high stress and I have a 1hr+ commute each way just for the pleasure of all this stress. Board games for me is a way to Escape. For that 1hr+ we are playing, I am a bumbling Orc, a Mage, a pirate or whatever and it is a “just a game” — because sometime that is all it is. So, I hope that sometime we also explore simply the silly side of games. I like “Epic Spell Wars of the Battle Wizards” – I suggest getting Wizards hats for everyone for that episode. Because, even as adults, sometimes simple laughter, humor and being silly is good for the soul and you do not always have to be as serious as some of the topics spoken about today.

Pffff. I like seeing people geeking out about cool mini’s and games.
Discussions about art is not my thing.
People having fun playing games I find is much more fun.
That makes me want to paint and play more games.

Hmm two things, a very interesting discussion, but not sure I actually enjoyed it, maybe a bit heavy for a relaxed Sunday morning.

That said I have my own views. Why do you have to pigeon hole games as art? Why can’t we say games are also a science? Art is in the eye of the beholder.

If you’re moving to another room for XLBS (I’m assuming this is a temp room), I recommend something with highbacked leather chairs, dark wood panalling and a fireplace for that cosy feeling (and maybe you guys sporting OTT smoking jackets and sipping from OTT brand brandy glasses 😜).

I have you beat @dracs – I’ve shrunk to 5’ 3” 😢

As someone who actually lives in Wales, can I say that internet coverage is spotty here, and that’s in the South where civilisation is, so if he’s out in the wild mountains it could be even worse.

On Manitoba – if that’s their stance, why pick the name of an actual real world tribe rather than creating a fictional one? Surely the point of doing so is to lend an air of authenticity to it?

Do we want to know under what circumstance Sam watched the Twilight films? And did he say movie*s* as in plural? Did his girlfriend hold his Hobbit army hostage or something? 😝

Topic ideas: who’s the sexiest crew member? Actually, one step further, fullblown BoW Beauty Contest!
?version=0
😜

I did enjoy the show but I will agree with @laughingboy.

I normally use the show to relax and get some painting done and get a good laugh, this show however leans more toward serious Friday evening discussion talk show and demands that I pay attention to what is being said(might not be a bad idea).
That is all good, or is it. I have a total of 4 hours a week I can use on hobby to unwind and relax.
So if I have to chose between a although good and serious show and no painting or a more loose and less serious show where i can paint at the same time. I will choose the latter.

So my opinion is that it was a good show and I can see that there might be a need for a show like this. But I for one will not be as keen on watching the show since it will demand too much effort on my part and to fully appreciate this format I need to sink too much time in to it which will eat all my hobby time.
I would much prefer that this would be a addition instead of a replacement of the xlbs so that if I suddenly got a couple of hours more each week I could choose to join in and participate in a debate.

Wow. At first, I was kind of worried about the new format. Waking up with coffee in hand to go watch online friends relaxing and talking more gaming is how I have spent every Sunday morning for years. Now to be waking up and hearing intellectual debate and exploration? Well, I am awake now and my brain is engaging, and I am not into my second pot of coffee yet. What the hell? I am enjoying this.
As to the subject, where to start? I do not think that you should draw a line as to what is acceptable and what is not worthy to bring to people’s attention. The line is always moving, and the line is not the same to different cultures or social groups. I have in my collection a Ral Partha limited edition box set “The Slave Auction”. To my knowledge, it was the only miniature set to ever have a parental advisory on it. It has several miniatures of naked females of different races. I have no doubt that it is something that would never even be considered for a release in this day and age. It is something that I would never even think to purchase at this point in my life. People advance, society advances ( for good or bad). As long as you are presenting the game in such a fashion as to say “Here it is. We have told you it exists. Now you vote with your wallet.”. And lets be real, not every game deserves more than just a mention. I sure as hell would never expect you guys to do a let’s play on a game about pedophilia.
Are games art? The argument can be made that games are art.If the art of war is a real thing then so is the art of wargames. We all know that some art is nothing more than shit thrown at a wall. Basically everything is in the eye of the beholder. Sounds over simplified but art, at its root, is opinion, and you can’t logically argue opinion.
Have a happy Sunday folks.

Oh … my God … there is a lot to unpack here.

First off, GREAT episode, I really like this new idea of taking on more serious topics, and I really like a lot of the “ground rules” that are being set. This really “lights the torch of hope” for some topics that I feel haven’t been discussed in the community very much for fear or offending people’s sensitivities, topics I’ve brought up in my writing and publications and for which I’ve taken no small amount of fire.

I’m going to be be agreeing with a lot, and disagreeing with a lot. So I’ll probably break up this reply across a few posts.

But for now, just wanted to start off with I really appreciate the move to subjects with a little more gravitas.

Okay, right off the bat, I think I really like the ground rules.

“We’re going to tackle topics, that might trigger …”

Sad, really … that a disclaimer like that is so necessary in today’s discourse. I agree it’s necessary, and I think @warzan was smart to say it, it’s just a shame we have to. If we really want to “grow up” as a community as we say, isn’t putting away the knee-jerk “I’m offended” social justice really one of the first steps?

Ground Rule: “It’s just a game … is not an answer.”

Couldn’t possibly agree more. I am so tired of people taking that dismissive, borderline patronizing tone. Even worse is when people bring up topics, start an argument, and then when they meet resistance or debate, retreat off the field behind this somewhat cowardly smokescreen.

A variant of this is the saying: “it’s just a game so as long as you’re having fun, that’s all that matters.” This came up dozens of times during the “Historical Wargaming is Inaccessible” circus a few months ago (no, my gun barrels still haven’t entirely cooled off from that one).

It’s just a cheap tactic where people say … Oh, I have this position. Oh, you don’t agree with it. Uh … let’s not talk about it then. Then next time don’t bring it up, eh?

Ground Rule: “It’s just wrong … because.”

Oh, thank you, yes. Yes yes yes. From Confederate flags on ACW tables to swastikas on German WW2 vehicles to “you can’t play wargames in Iraq / Syria / Afghanistan because it’s ‘too’ modern and it’s just wrong just because …”

I am so tried of hearing this $h*t I don’t even know where to begin. Its cool if we disagree … there is a LOT I disagree with in this episode. But don’t shut down the discussion just “because.”

When you take a position, you assume the responsibility of defending it.

Ground Rule: “It’s art, so anything goes”

Okay, well games are not art for reasons I will get into later, and reasons that others on the thread have gone into. So saying that anything goes in gaming because it’s art I don’t agree with, but it is a form of expression so I feel this ground rule stands … for different reasons.

However … Games are also published. When you start publishing something, especially for money, especially (in some cases) for borderline educational purposes … you assume a certain level of responsibility. So everything does NOT GO … especially because it’s “art” (because it isn’t).

@warzan I would think that if you kids didn’t think of you as a dinosaur one day then things will have gone wrong.

It would mean that the human race wouldn’t have progressed in any meaningful way.

As a 55 year old sitting at nearly 3 am Monday morning typing this in New Zealand, I take pride from the fact that we were the first country in the world where women got the right to vote and that successive governments are trying to treat the native peoples with respect when dealing with grievances from our colonial past.

I also am grateful that a programme like The Benny Hill Show would not likely be made in this day and age.

Kudos to the editing team for the work on today’s episode. @warzan ‘s coffee cup changed at some point early in the episode and the editing was smooth enough that I don’t know when it happened.

Strange coincidence, I was talking to a member of the Cree Nation just two weeks ago, one of my Dad’s new golfing friends from upstate New York / Canada. We were talking about the complexities of Native Americans and their dealings with the federal government, and their association with the former Iroquois Confederacy (Mohawk, Seneca, Cayuga, Oneida, Onondaga, Tuscarora) tribes, and in turn these peoples’ involvement with the American Revolution, including the Battle of Oriskany. 🙂

Now, this immediately touches upon an issue I have been around and around about practically all my life, not only with gaming but also things like TV and movies.

If you’re going to make something historical, or really based on actual events / cultures / realities of my time period, I’m sorry … you assume certain responsibility for getting it at least somewhat right.

No one knows better than me that games are an abstraction, I’ve been trying to expand BoW’s scope of more abstract wargames since I firsts started publishing on the site four years ago.

But … quick word to game designers / TV producers / movie studios …

History is not your toy.

It is not a plaything that is yours to pick up and treat with casual disrespect. Knock it off. Now.

When a game developer (or again, TV/movie producer) gets things this basic, this wrong, it just shows that they didn’t take the time to properly research what they were publishing about.

I publish content for a living, both as a day job and here on BoW/OTT. So maybe I take it a little more seriously than most. But when you publish content on a given topic, you’re “automatically” implying that you’re at least somewhat knowledgeable in that subject, and disseminating that information to those who are (a) not as knowledgeable and (b) at least somewhat interested. So when things like this are carelessly published, you’re actually making the world at large “less informed” – reinforcing stereotypes and the like.

Suffice it to say that movies like Inglorius Basterds and TV shows like Hogan’s Heroes are absolutely NOT on my favorites list. I even find movies like Kelly’s Heroes a little offensive in some parts (I know, heresy).

All that said, I don’t begrudge other people’s enjoyment of them. Like I said earlier, we all need to put the safeties back on our triggers. The responsibility isn’t on the consumer so much as the publisher / producer.

But while I would certainly support this game developer’s right to publish what they want and people’s freedom to enjoy it, I would also applaud and support people who go after this kind of material as cheap, careless, and irresponsible.

Free speech swings both ways. I certainly don’t buy careless historical games. And I would discourage anyone who’ll listen from doing so.

I think the question ‘is it art?’, or in this particular case ‘is a game art?’, is at its heart an arbitrary one in the most literal sense. That is i think the question is a proposition along the lines of ‘do we choose to bestow upon a game the status of “art”?’, or ‘do we judge a game worthy of the title of “art”?’. How the issue of whether or not to refer to a game as ‘art’ is resolved, and what that means in terms of consequences or otherwise, will be different for different groups ( be those groups individuals, cultures or societies ). One group might essentially be asking ‘did this game, or more specifically the rule set, and/or the components, and/or the playing of the game involve skill?’, whereas another group might essentially be asking ‘is this game, or more specifically the rule set, and/or the components, and/or the playing of the game aesthetically pleasing, valuable or worthwhile?’ The meaning and consequence of a game being referred to as art might be a license to say something otherwise considered taboo or illegal, or it might imply and even bestow financial worth.

The reason i point this out is because i want to ask is it worth us asking this question at all? Would it not be better to skip that question altogether and instead simply ask questions like those above that are about skill or aesthetics or financial compensation or free speech, and so on? Or even a question about what sort of status games have in society? I put it to you all that the question ‘is it art?’ is superficial and serves only to muddy the waters with a slew of questions that distract us from answering any one of them in any depth.

Okay, here goes.

I don’t think this show is a Weekender: XLBS.

I think it is something new, something needed, something of a good start, but not a Weekender: XLBS.

My hazy memory of what an W:XLBS is, from its launch low these many many moons ago was something along the lines of a more relaxed take on the gaming world, where the crew talked about what they had been up to, hobby, etc, and also gave us Backstagers a peak behind the curtains as to the goings on at BoW HQ and what was planned for the future.

Basically escapist entertainment which people can easily paint to.

Those were the functions of an W:XLBS.

My categorising of this show would be:
Deep thinking
Well researched and thought out
Challenging
Political
Mature Content

Hardly escapist entertainment…or relaxing or an W:XLBS.

The warning for the type of show we got was sort of there in the description, but I’m not sure that many people read that before hitting play on the video.

My opinion – call it something else, layout what its function is and it will find the audience that you are looking for.

Have a competition for the new name….

You like competitions @warzan.