Deadzone 2.0 Demo Game – Forge Fathers Vs Enforcers!
May 27, 2016 by dignity
We've got a special one for you today as Ronnie Renton joins us in the studio to play through a battle report of the new Deadzone 2.0 using the Enforcers and the Forge Fathers from the Core Box that you can get for the game.
Warren and Justin will be playing the game to find out about the changes in the mechanics and where the world of Deadzone is going now from Mantic Games.
The Enforcers & The Forge Fathers
Who do you think is going to come out on top during this scuffle? Drop your thoughts below and let us know what you think of the changes to Deadzone.
Which faction will you be playing as?
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Looks like Mantic read all our comments and realized that they needed a proper demo game to show off their game and who better than these pair of crazy but enthusiastic gamer’s. Nice demo guys.
I have a cool game idea. Let’s look at all the games Mantic makes and see if we can spot where they stole their ideas from. I swear Ronnie Renton couldn’t find an original idea if it walked up and shoved it’s foot up his #$%. Dreadball is a perfect example. Production was rushed so the first series had massive problems, and when the smoke cleared people realised that the exact same problems that existed with Blood Bowl also existed with Dreadball because most of the game is a direct lift. When you start your company by making cheap plastic knockoffs for Warhammer I don’t have much respect for you. However when you constantly go to Kickstarter to basically sell preorders for the new editions of games that are supposed to fix problems with the older editions, that wouldn’t have existed if you had done proper thoughtful playtesting instead of just a money grab, then that’s even worse. Even saw their email promoting the new Deadzone with images of giant rats in space. Giant rats. Oh Ronnie, where do you get your wonderful ideas?
Are you his ex-wife?
No. Just a long time chronicler of games companies and their business practices. Some companies are just fine. Whether you like the individual game or not, the idea was solid and the execution was good enough that it could survive on its own. Others exist on nostalgia for better games created by more talented people. Reworking an existing game just enough to ” not get sued ” does not make you a great games company. Constantly going back to the Kickstarter well to fund projects you know aren’t good enough to survive on the open market on their own merit doesn’t make you a great games company.
Reckon you’re off his Christmas card list then. There’s a difference between voicing an opinion and a personal diatribe though
That is my opinion. His stuff is sub par where it might be fixed with more work on the material, and he gets more credit than his actions and his “creations” deserve.
I don’t think it is fair to Dreadball to say its a blood bowl clone, it is a different game and has some unique play aspects. It does share the same problems as Bloodbowl but that is more to do with coming from the same school of games design than a direct copy.
Also I don’t think you can hammer a company for lack of originality when your source is GW – they are the masters of integrating other ideas into their own universe. Originality is a fairly rare thing is the miniatures game community as it all tends to draw on elements that will appeal to gamers.
Back on topic I won’t be picking this up as I have still not gotten the motivation to tackle the poor quality of the original Deadzone kickstarter stuff. Plus locally the quality and lack of support from a mantic rep which was used to move units has killed the game.
Mantic did however send me a free PDF of the new rules for supporting the first kickstarter – I have not read it but it was a nice touch. I may at some point sit down and have a look at them.
My mention of Dreadball is to point out that if you are going to make the effort to produce a game “inspired” by another game that has not been supported in forever. And that you feel your game can fill the void in the marketplace, then go to a new school of game design. Why would a company try and make a “new” version of an idea only to give it the same problems that the “old” version. At least let you game have “new” problems.
An exciting game, aided by the banter and occasional blunder with a soupcon of Dice God fickle fortune. I suppose the moral of the tale is ‘Don’t shoot anyone’s dog.’
Sounds like some one here has lost his dummy. You could say a lot of games in some form or other have ideas taken from different sources and isn’t there that saying,”Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery?!”
That expression is only used by people by people who aren’t talented or creative enough to come up with their own great ideas. Take Guild Ball for example. The creators were playing a lot of Blood Bowl online when it hit them that they wished there was still a great sports miniatures game being actively supported in the marketplace. Guild Ball is, however, far from Blood Bowl. They fixed many problems that Blood Bowl had in its game balance when growing teams, and league play. As a result the game is wildly popular and a really fresh take on the classic sports miniatures game. They just had their first 128 man tournament not long ago and the game has only been out about a year and a few. So you can take inspiration from an existing property and turn it into something greater that the community will love and embrace. It is possible. I’m just pointing out that Renton can’t. He’s not that good.
Steamforged have done a brilliant job with Guildball it is my mini game of preference – however you talk about originality they an idea Bloodbowl without a board, use some warmachine concepts, some malifeux concepts, a historic idea, some guild themes and ideas and blended it into a masterpiece.
They have produced a great game not with a completely original idea but by hard work, some inspired additions, months of play testing and by very deliberately avoiding pitfalls other games have found. The result is something very fresh and with a distinct character, that delivers a great play experience.
However you also need to think of the motivations and design specs behind the companies – Steamforged set out to create the game they wanted to play, it is a labour of love, and the guys are proving they are great designers but between season 1 and 2 you can see them maturing as designers. I expect a lot going forward as they are proving to be a great design team.
Mantic set out to put big armies on the table and to an extent I believe replicate the scatter shot of games from GW from the time Ronnie was there, and the positivity that generated drove a lot of successful kickstarters. Gav is a good games designer, but he is designing to spec, give him the steamforge spec and you may see a masterpiece. Now if only they would sort their quality control out.
Meh cant play mine. My battle for Hera deal was horribly mispacked somewhat disappointingly
Hope you got it fixed. Like the game or not you should get what you pay for.
Not yet. Mantic haven’t replied to my ticket yet. Very grim
Well I’m pulling for you. Whether something gets played or just collects dust should be your choice, not theirs. Good Luck
Brilliant game as usual between Warren and Justin!
I must admit that after Warrens first turn I almost switched off rather than see Justin steam roller him but sooooo glad I didn’t!!!!! Incredible turn around!! Can’t wait for a massive warpath game to settle the score!!
On another note, I can never understand why people rant and rave in comments etc. If your not a fan then don’t bother watching or commenting rather than moaning!
So you would rather have comments about how everything is always great and all games are perfect? Wow.
If you don’t have anything good to say then don’t say anything at all!
So god forbid anyone should ever be criticized for anything. As long as we all keep our heads in the sand and never point out the wrong then we will all be just fine right?
Erm i mean no disrespect, but you didnt critisise deadzone, you used this vid as an opportunity to critisise a bunch of other stuff, which probably would have made more sense in a forum topic.
Mantic’s handling of their kickstarters has left a lot of people unhappy with their service and products. If everyone simply kept quiet about their issues with the company they would have no incentive to improve.
EXACTALLY!!! I’m glad I’m not the only one who doesn’t put on his rose colored glasses before talking about Mantic games and how they conduct business.
I didn’t know if I’d like this but, its looking good man.
In the end most games are improvements and ideas from borrowed from other games. Neither Mantic or GW to my mind have produced anything truly original idea wise .
That is a valid point Torros. Ideas maybe not, but rulesets and execution yes I believe there is a distinct difference. To try and craft rules that have never seen the table top format before, despite being inspired by existing material, can be difficult. Changing a few things and hitting copy then paste is not such a great achievement.
@spadefish there isn’t much original in the people you claim he took his ideas from… dig a little deeper
Yes, you could say that Warhammer borrowed from Tolkien who borrowed from so and so. Hell, I believe it was the ancient greeks who postulated that there are only 12 to 14 basic story plots in existence and all stories and creations are some form of them. The key is doing it well. The leap from Tolkien to Warhammer, a book to a table top battle game using leftover D&D miniatures is one thing. The leap from Warhammer to Kings of War is far less. When you come out with “new” games that have the same problems as the games they’re “inspired” by then that says something. If you’re going to recreate something at least make the effort to make it better instead of failing to see the problems in the older game that might influence players to buy yours as an alternative.
and yet as a massed battle game KoW is far better then WFB, the differences between first and second edition are minimal. Likewise with Dreadball, it is by no means a direct lift from bloodbowl, if you think so then you would have to concede that Bloodbowl was a rip off of subbuteo, in that both games are attempting to recreate a field sport on a board. You obviously have decided that X = Y and while the Mantic model could be construed to just be mirroring GW you have to bear in mind that Blood bowl has not been a game that you could purchase in over 20 years, Warhammer Quest is likewise, Necromunda the same. Yes Ronnie has filled niches abandoned by GW but the games have their own slant. Now if you don’t like Mantics take on them there is no one forcing you to play them, however I own all of the originals and all of Mantic’s current crop of games and I like them for their own reasons, not just because this is a new version of that. All games have their pros and cons, if they didn’t there would be no new games at all
As to what game a person may or may not prefer is a matter of opinion. What I am saying is I don’t respect people who only change a few things in an effort to ride others coat tails. As to your comments about Dreadball then how do you explain why many of the same problems exist for both Dreadball and Bloodbowl? If it was really a fresh idea then Mantic would’ve taken the concept of a table sports game and that’s all. Every rule and basic game mechanic would be new and you wouldn’t see the same issues. The fact that you do means that they are lifting mechanics from the source material, thereby getting the same problems. Just because Mantic is trying to cash in on IP that hasn’t been used in awhile doesn’t make it a great games company. It just proves that they don’t have enough power at the top to break something down and create a really different IP from the parent material. Before Mantic even tried to produce anything else they just made figures. Cheap plastic knockoffs for Warhammer. Hanging onto other people’s IP in order to make some quick cash is the story behind Mantic and that’s why I don’t respect them as a company. Whether you like their games or not is a matter of opinion.
I think it might be worth organising you a few weeks work experience with them so you can get a true appreciation of whats involved behind the scenes and what it takes (and took in the past) to run a company like that.
It may not change your opinion but it would certainly better inform your arguments. Would you sacrifice some weeks of your life?
Ohhhh for a moment i tought Justin was about to get the favor oof the God of Dice but it was only a little test from him to test Justin Patience lol good game guy’s
Oh and buy the way Roni i was really loving the cards witch Deadzone 1.0 and now i have received my kikstarter stuff for the 2.0 version now i have to built my army and give it a try and i can say that i have loved what i have seen in here so ill see 😉
Getting my first game of 2.0 in today and now really looking forward to it! This now looks streamlined enough for my “every-now-and-again” gamer mates to enjoy it without having to manage a big learning curve
Nice to see the demo, as it is Warren and Ronnie we won’t comment on the rules they got wrong
We appreciate it believe me lol 😉
Although on second thoughts it may be of good use to new players so go ahead, me and Ronnie can take it!!! Lol
Ok. The important ones I noticed were:
1. Your pinned Enforcer should have stood up automatically after Justin attacked him in melee.
2. You CAN shoot into a cube with a your own models, you target the enemy as normal but have a -2 dice modifier.
main thing though, you showed how cool the game is and how easy it is to play
I am sorry to have to reply to you here @warzan but the reply tab seems to be disabled under your comments directly to me. While the work experience suggestion is an interesting one, seeing as how I live here in the states it wouldn’t be feasible. However to address your first comment I suppose your right. I was too general with my comments towards Mantic so let me address this game specifically. As an example, during the unboxing interview on a recently past weekender Renton himself even said that the first version was rushed. They were scrambling to make the self-imposed Kickstarter deadline and, as a result, they missed things.
1. They overused restic as a material and the figures suffered.
2. The rules were a bit over the top and bogged down gameplay.
3. There were a lot of little bits to deal with that slowed the process of getting started. A fact that you yourself concurred with, and so on.
The end result was less than ideal. So if someone gave me a choice between having a Kickstarter take longer than expected but getting a well honed, fine-tuned game with proper playtesting and R&D behind it. Or a game that’s really about 75% finished with shoddy material for miniatures, and a ruleset that can groan under its own lack of streamlining. Only to have the creator come back a little while down the road flogging version 2.0 that is supposed to fix all the problems with 1.0 despite that fact that those problems would never have existed if they hadn’t rushed production in the first place. well then I think I know what choice I would make.
I have been a member of the gaming community here in America for a long time. I have a wide network of gaming friends who have done everything from help organize and run some of our biggest conventions, down to guys making cardboard chits for their own games in their garage before Kickstarter was a thing. I know what it takes to get a games company off the ground and keep it solvent. It’s all work. But my respect is reserved for those who go the extra mile to make things just right in the process. Nothing is perfect, but it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t get as close as you can.
Other than that I really enjoy your site and have been a fan for awhile. Still miss Darrell harassing Justin from behind the camera though. That was funny.
I do take issue with your complaints on several points.
a. As others have pointed out there are very few games or rules sets about that do not take inspiration from others that went before. I have seen many elements from rules I published 20+ years ago regularly reappearing in different forms in more recent sets.
b. All sets of rules go through various releases to fine tune them. For god’s sake GW 40k is up to Vsn 8 as was warhammer before they ripped it up and started again! Consider companies like Microsoft, the cutting edge users are the ones who jump in Day one with the new releases, the more conservative of us wait until they have ironed out the problems before jumping in.
I do think that constructive criticism is good, but generalisations and a personal attack on a company it totaly out of place on a forum like this.
Just because you have been around for 20 years does not make you the world expert. I to have been in wargames for a long time (over 40 years), I to have published rules, I have organised Shows, and competitions and for a time was a successful competition wargamer so I do understand the hobby equally as well as you. I may not personaly like everything Mantic produce but I would praise them for the work that they do promoting the hobby and taking things forward, and filling the gaps that GW create when the desert their longtime customers and move on to pastures new!
If you have more original Ideas please Publish a set of rules yourself and see how other people agree with you.
Knowing both of you as I do I would have questioned it if you’d got everything right lol
just played a few games last night , hows that for timing :p
great wee vid would have loved to have seen a battle with more points.
would like to say the enforcer assault troop from the start list is awful much better with a standard troop. Also found that the normal steel warrior gun is better than the flamer. This is just from playing about 4-5 games last night so like all good opinions subject to change.
As for what was said about mantic games and such I only have 3 mantic games kings of war v2.0, deadzone v2.0 and dungeon saga v2.0 (The latest one). having been gaming for the last 20 years (not that the length of time should make my opinion any more valid than any one elses) there models are sub par but the models in the deadzone 2 box are a very nice step forward and the game its self is a nice fun game not as in depth as I usually would like but I get the feeling the campaign system from this book and the new bits from the add on will be where the real game will begin and where alot of differences will occur from other systems in sense of feel.
sorry this is a long first post and like to say how the hell can mantic keep getting there own rules wrong maybe its the stress of the camera lol give them cheat sheets people.
again great battle report love to see the beasts of war team play a vid campain of the game if they can squeeze it in.
Main thing with this demo is that is shows the important things:
1. The game is slick and quick
2. The game is brutal
3. The game is tactical
4. The command dice are a fantastic and random game mechanic
I am LOVING Deadzone v2.0
I agree as a demo game it served its purpose well and the boyz enthusiasm is always a huge bonus.
quick question with any one with the game did I get short changed on command dice ? as only got 6 in box since it should be 9 to play the game right ? not a big thing but just wondering but it is a good excuse to buy a second box 🙂 .
Ohh, new demo game.
Before I watch this, I’m going to guess Warren wins.
I KNEW IT!
Had me worried there for a moment warren.
Great demo. I can’t wait to get my kickstarter. I thought this would be a great game to take to the comic book shop on board game night. It definitely has that hybrid feel of board and wargame. Hopefully I can convert some of the board gamers.
That was one hell of an entertaining report to watch. But the credit goes to the players (and the umpire) and not the game. I am a great fan of Mantic and their paradigm of simplifying games. KoW is a prime example for how good this can work. But with Deadzone 2.0 they over did it. A lot.
A buddy of mine and I were really deep into Deadzone 1.0. We played about 1-2 games a week. And we loved it. All those little rules. overwatching, boosting someone into melee. It was a great game and we managed to get even 200 Point games on a 4×4 through in about 1,5 hours. Deadzone 2.0 (we played 4 games until now) is even faster. But I think it nearly lost all of its flavour.
Removing the cards: Yeah ok I can see why they did this. I was a little fiddly. But it was also nice not knowing what your opponnents goal was. So the win came always as a suprise. But ok, the command dice are a great replacement for the normal cards. They should have left the stat cards in there. They were REALLY useful. But after a while you know the stats from the top of your head, so I’m ok with removing the cards.
Removing actions: Where is overwatch? Where is enrage? Where are all these little modifiers which really promoted tactical play? All lost. And I don’t see why. They didn’t slow the game down, once you knew what you we’re doing.
Removing cover: Ok the cover rules where a little unclear. These should have been streamlined. But instead they were removed. Now its only clear shot or not clear shot. Being in a cover cube gives you no more an advantage in itself. Again removing more tactical options.
Snipers and other Heavy/Deliberate Weapons: With the new shoot and move command dice it is FAR to easy to get these guys into position. Especially the goblin snipers are to powerful now. And using more terrain doesn’t work either, because then they can hide even better.
On a positive note: Leaders work better now. The new Splat-Abilities are great. The armybuilding got a little more complex (which contradicts the design idea for 2.0 a little in my oppinion) but gives you a lot more options. I like that. Items work better. The campaign system got the overhaul it desperately needed.
So we are now working a lot of the 1.0 rules into 2.0. And even removing some of the 2.0 ruleset (for example you can’t fire a heavy/deliberate weapon with a free shoot action).
@tompenn. Here is what I would say to your points.
1. The question is not whether a company takes inspiration from another source, the question is HOW MUCH inspiration they’re taking. I can look at Mantic’s games and I can tell exactly what company or IP they are copying. That means IN MY OPINION, that they are too close to the source material and are not really being creative. It’s not their own game, it’s just their version of someone else’s game.
2. I would say that using 40K as an example is a straw argument. You’re talking about a game that can’t be balanced because of the way you pick your forces. And it’s made by a company who has said that they are a miniatures company, not a games company. They don’t seem to really care as long as people keep buying the figures. And it doesn’t help when a company rushes production and skips important things just to get a product out. Ronnie Renton himself ADMITTED to rushing production on Deadzone 1.0 so that should tell you something. The need for Deadzone 2.0 would probably not exist if they hadn’t rushed. I don’t choose to support a company who rushes their products just to take my money and give me a low-level game that they should’ve spent more time on.
3. At no point did I say that I am a world expert. These are my OPINIONS of the business practices of Mantic Games, and an apparent lack of creatively, and attention to detail on their part. I don’t care if other people buy Mantic games, I’m only stating why I don’t and the problems I hope they would address.
After reading your ‘explanation’ all I can think is that for some reason you seem to have some sort of grudge against Mantic games and wish to use this forum to make a personal attack on them. In which case spending any more time responding to your diatribe would be totally waisted
It’s not a personal attack so much as a professional one. You would know this if you fully understood the posts you “claim” to have read. But fine. You can spend the extra time checking to see if there’s really supposed to be an i in wasted. See, THAT’S an example of a personal attack. Learn the difference before speaking publically please.
Every time I hear something about how unwieldy, unmanageable & such the cards were, in RRs own words. *they never quite worked*. I think of X-Wing. & then I laugh at how absurd that notion is. It’s. Really. Not. That. Hard! That Mantic somehow can’t handle cards the right way, or thinks we can’t handle the cards… Good Lord! You can’t be serious!! & thumbing through the rulebook is easier???
So much emphasis on easier, simpler, faster has just added up to lesser! So much so in fact that the game is approaching being as much a boardgame as wargame. & if my group & I wanted to play a boardgame, there’s much better options than DZ2.0. Same goes for a skirmish wargame, so many better options than DZ2.0. They have no idea what they want their game to be, board or war game, so they try to do both. & in so doing, fail miserablyat both. GWs back catalog of & new ever increasing line of boardgames is better than DZ2.0 as a boardgame. & Warmahordes & Infinity are such very superior skirmish wargames.
To me, Mantic fixed things in DZ1 that weren’t broken & only mildly improved on the things that were actually broken. Trying to get my money’s worth outta the hundreds of dollars I spent on the DZ1 & 2 Kickstarters but each game session just points towards tossing out the whole Mantic DZ rules/IP, To just use the minis as proxies in other board & wargaming systems.
If that’s what Mantic & their vaunted *Rules Committee* was going for [using their models in other games] then congratulations! Success!! Job well done!!! But I somehow have my doubt about that being their goal.
\
Blaster was here…
I’ve found the rules committee to be horribly out of touch with what gamers actually seem to want, hence the kerfuffle over Warpath’s move towards multi-basing last year and the need for two rulesets in the kickstarter.
Can we all chip in and maybe buy a certain person complaining a new pacifier; because the one he threw away has left the planet.
He’d probably complain about that as well…
Speaking as someone that played both games the new version is far better, in my opinion. As to boardgame verses war game, it’s a gateway game to boardgamers into miniatures /war games. Are the rulers simple, yes and to good effect. If you are trying to get someone to try something new and you make it to difficult they will lose interest. I feel DZ 2 is simple enough for a new player but also tactical enough for a seasoned war gamer to enjoy, I know I do.
I’ve finally got round to reading my book I ordered at salute, and I can’t imagine anyone being that excited about the game if they actually read the rules. Mantic really don’t care about the community anymore – they got lucky with kings of war and are now just trying to churn out stuff as quick as possible to make a quick buck.
I am a Long time 40k player … started in the 80s. I do not see how Deadzone could be compared at all to a Games Workshop game. It is very unique in gameplay and tactics. I think mantic hit a homerun by giving miniature gamers a easy to set up, fast playing and tactically challenging game. It is the grid based game I wish Dust Tactics had turned out to be.