What about a PC rules app tick the boxes for what your playing an the app fire’s out rules of player’s?

I always said Eldrad Ulthran was full of shit.

Look at the athletics people they need sponsorship to fund their training.

Happy Sunday! Good job Warren, it only toke you 3 weeks to turn the innuendo meter to 11 since Free joined the crew. Hitch didn’t Direct “Citizen Kane” it was Welles. Check out “Rear Window” Hitchcocks best film in my opinion.

The beasty boy’s NO GAME’S TILL BELFAST ? LOL

Great looking project figures button winner’s

Very interesting discussion on rules. As primarily a historical gamer, the rules are one of my last considerations, but I guess I’m going through a different process. First I’m interested in a period, then I want know if anyone makes the figures for it (that I like!). Then, can I find reference materials to research uniforms, orders of battle, etc. That’s enough to start. Rules come up later, perhaps only once I’m starting to want to base up units. I also don’t expect to find perfect rules. I expect to twiddle with them to get the sort of games that feel right for my view of the armies and period. I’m also a collector of rules just as much as figures. For periods I like I will keep buying rules as I come across them. They usually have something interesting mechanic, or a different approach, all of which are fun to try.

In my gaming group I think we often don’t give rules a fair try. We’ll play one game, and if one thing doesn’t work then everyone throws up their hands in disgust and the rules are relegated to the bottom of the pile. Wargamers can be so fickle! 😆

A fabulous show guy’s
Was watching a classic startrek show this week an realised that kirk and the Asgard saved the planet the deathwing Darkangle’s recruits from?

Happy Sunday….

Or as I call it: The weekend stops here!

02:00 @warzan has a GUN? I knew you lot over there aren’t the most same people ever… BUT A GUN!? Also, cue music: Aerosmith – Warren’s got a gun
05:00 Well…. that was very obviously what would happen XD
06:40 “How’s the couch” and again @avernos shows he’s thinking way more far ahead then anybody else
07:15 @warzan you may want to look into the little vibrating eggs for “internal application”. They could fit into the magazine and make the ba… pellets go faster.
11:11 “strange images”
15:30 Will the gaming table support you then Warren?
21:00 “So you guys are pretty close now?” XD
26:30 3D printed SW:L? Heresy! Black magic! Witchcraft! It will never catch on!
29:15 The Bad Batch you say @brennon? It’s like someone should make a podcast on that. *cough* https://www.beastsofwar.com/project/1578746/ *cough*
46:00 That sound reminds me a lot of Thunderbirds for some reason
47:00 “Interesting CoGs” …. so I’m out *g* Also I don’t know shit about 5e
48:00 Gerry will have an attack squirrel
54:00 Skellyboys
1:02:30 Goblin green base. 100 points to House Ben’ondorf.
1:04:20 Orks? Where are Orks?!
1:06:00 Imperial propaganda is great!
1:08:00 Rules do matter that’s why I’m always happy when there is a demo, PDF or something that gives you a taste of it
1:15:30 TAX? You madmen!
1:19:00 Totally with you there Ben. As I have said in the forum discussion on that topic ( https://www.beastsofwar.com/forums/topic/top-five-things-that-help-you-getting-into-a-new-game/ ) A free demo rules PDF and some introductory videos like FFG did for X-Wing and SW:L do so much for a game
1:20:00 The problem with a “completely new set of rules” is always that people don’t want to learn new tricks and hoops. Look at Freebooters Fate for example (not Saga). Their use of zero dice and just cards is something that still baffles my mind today. For me wargaming always has been something with dice. be it D6, D10, D20 or special dice
1:24:00 Rules writers need exposure. But that won’t help much if they don’t also sell it. And sadly my brain is so bad on names I can’t remember most names. If I’m lucky I can come to a point of “Of that’s the guy who did X and also Y”
1:24:45 Comfort zone is the word. And that applies to rules, painting and building. We love what we know and new things are terrifying.
1:30:00 “Why is it not free?” I thing the majority of those people shouldn’t be considered in any thinking of “how can we make our eco system better”. Leeches will latch on one way or the other.
1:34:00 Warren drops packages *g*
1:38:00 I’m totally calm… and I am relaxed… and no those are not bite marks in my table…
1:42:00 A Song of Ice and Fire… it’s more along the books then the series isn’t it?
1:43:10 Paint Dark Angles for… 40.000 years
1:48:30 Why is nobody talking about Star Wars: Epic Legions? Battles of epic proportions on a very small scale (scale to be determined) Hey, AMG… Get on with it!

Now back to the table…

The question was “If you were getting into a new game can you list the top five things (information, videos, downloads etc) that would help you get into it?” This implies we have already picked the game to start. If the games is already chosen, then the rules are not a potential answer.

The reason we were attracted to On Table Top on Youtube was that we were looking for a playtesting of Black Seas. Most of the videos were dire, with poor video editing and people putting on silly voices and little real discussion of the rules. Then we came across On Table Top, well-edited and lit and an excellent introduction to the rules system. This led to us looking for more “Lets Plays” and we were hooked by Justin and Richard Clarke playing Sharp Practice, which for us belied the idea that wargaming isn’t a spectator sport. Well explored run-throughs of rulesets done like this are an excellent way of getting more people to play them and it is rarely done well on the internet.
Before the plague, we mainly relied on shows to try out new rules systems.
I must admit coming from a historical gamer’s perspective the rule system is the first thing that attracts me to play a different period or genre. Never having been a GW player I have found looking through their rules in the past that they fail to engage my interest. There are so many innovative and interesting rulesets out there but to be honest Beasts of War rarely mention any of them. For example, the Peter Pig rules system where movements are based on squares, perfect for school clubs where it allows for good gameplay without having endless arguments about “Is that figure in hardcover or do I have a line of sight?” Or the excellent rules – sold by Wayland Games_- “By Fire and Sword”.
Maybe instead of devoting huge chunks of the show to News of GW’s pre-release, release and post-release news, you could consider including a rule set/system of the week from an indie writer?

Recently I’ve been gravating to miniature agnostic rules such as
Own Combat
Stargrave
Songs of Blades and Heroes
Brutality
Reality’s Edge

I prefer a rule set that isn’t packaged with a miniature range because I’m more free to pick and choose minis from a range of manufacturers.

skeleton has a Rod for His Back lol

@warzan get some Eva foam chain mail for cosplay. It wont weight as much !

Rules maketh the game.
I really wish OTT had a ‘compare and contrast’ of rule-sets in like genres. Would it really be that difficult Gerry? I’ll maintain that beautiful dream.
I think there’s still innovation in miniature gaming. Saga was very different from other historics. Infinity is very different to other Sci Fi. GW’s Underworlds is very different from anything else in fantasy.
Sadly I think GW has ruined many gamers by making them accustomed to great miniatures and settings covering up for poor rules. GW rules are the McDonalds of gaming. You love them as a child but as an adult you know it’s unhealthy for you but very convenient.
GW has been able to survive on substandard rules for years purely because playing it gives you a much better chance of finding an opponent at your local club or FLGS.
Having said that, GW have for many years now, said that players should change rules to suite the way they want the game to be.
One of the issues that my friend and I encountered years ago was the lack of ‘how to play’ videos. Take Saga for example… Gerry? Llyod?
The other problem is that if you find an issue with rules many developers either ignore you or like SPQR, treat you with distain (and we all know how that dumpster-fire went for them). Mantic Games is the Best Practice in my view for dealing with rules issues.
Free’s miniature character instantly reminded me of how I’ve always visualized the Irish goddess ‘The Morrigan’.

Good show there and love the topic.

To me rules are the way more important that the game but also what the game is about too.

I for one think people do not under that most of the wargames industry is friends working together to product something that might or might not make them any money or at least cover the costs. I am a writer, illustrator and designer for Very British Civil War, a alt history setting based around the abdication crisis of Edward VIII and a resultant civil war that follows. The is 16 books written in the series, covering the background, the factions, vehicles, uniforms and rules for it, with a new one coming out soon. It has a relatively large following and a very active core of players. We have written two sets of rules for it, one for large scale combat and one for platoon level combat, but the setting is rules agnostic.

We have been very lucky with support for the industry with Warbase producing a set of templates for the game as well as buildings, Footsore Miniatures producing a set of figures sculpted but the amazing Paul Hicks and flags, Sally Forth producing cards, templates and buildings, Sloppy Jalopy producing vehicles and miniatures, Reiver Castings producing a large range of minis and Wargames Illustrated being very supportive with articles. With all this help and support you would of thought that Solway Crafts and Miniatures, the others involved and myself would be making a decent wage from it and be able to work on it full time and give up the day job but alas no.

The reality of it is that you do it because you want to do it. You get no thanks for credit, the industry like you, you have a few people in various places that know and understand but the truth is you make very little money after costs or taken into account. However, players and gamers think because you have selling a number of books that sell 5000 plus at £8.00 a piece you be making a lot of money. It sounds like it I know but we make about a £1 profit per book, divided between five of us. But we do it for the love of it, the love of the game and the love of the players.

Please dont get me wrong, I love the industry and the game, etc but to make a real living from this the price rise would make that very expensive and that would be the same across the board. Even some of the bigger names in the Industry like Footsore are a small operation, that produce beautiful figures and some good set of rules but they dont make a huge profit, and that is the same across the busy. It amazes me that this is the way but it is, rules and game design is secondary to the manufacturing side and it is strange that in board games and RPGs it is not but then they need to produce, book after book, adventure after adventure to keep the interest up and failing to do so will result in the game being forgotten.

Great episode. Congrats to all the Golden Button winners, some fantastic work there. Very much enjoyed the whole episode.

While I completely agree on writers of good rules sets not being rewarded enough I think a “mini tax” is completly the wrong way about it. It would be pretty much impossiable to setup given the size of the market, tax, international etc. and if it did would most likley end up pushing mini prices up more.

I think a better way about it is for either rules writers to sell compatiable third party minatures themselves, which is a investment and not really possiable for many. Or i think a more preferable option would be to operate a drop shipping model, where you say buy warlord minis from the lardies store but warlord actually ship them too you, that way giving a chunk of the profits directly to the rules writers without them having to operate any logistics.

But thats just if you want to let rules writers make money from minatures, i think theres a whole range of alternative options, pateron?, how the rules are sold, printed/digital what model is used for additonal rules etc, selling extras, tokens, special dice, templates and all that sort of stuff.

Its also worth remmebering not everyone is in the hobby to play games, for some collecting/painting minatures is their main interest and gaming is secondary.

Happy Sunday!

Another entertaining show. I think Warzan’s adventures in parenting future gamers could be a segment in themselves.

For the record, I think of them as Free and the Tasty Boys as it rolls so nicely.

Love the discussion about remembering the worth of makers. It is a hurdle I have faced all of my career as an artist. The best games often include many layers of these people from the rules writers to the sculptors and illustrators. So much creative energy expended just to get into our hands and inspire our creative energies. Thanks for the reminder.

Little guys rarely get a chance to shine. For example, Star Breach the rules sort of feel like an expanded onepagerules set. They aren’t perfect but they are playable, sure you could build a overpowered army and stomp everyone so it would sort of be garbage in a competitive level there will never be a Starbreach tournament at Adepticon. I’m not a competitive player so playing with a few friends it’s a pretty fun game. It’s models agnostic but the different forces seem to be a lot of 40k races and some Legion themed. But I cannot walk into any store here in the US and play Starbreach, you have 40k, AoS rarely, once in a blue moon you’ll see Kings of War.. so if you want to play with random people your sort of pigeon holed into that whole GW esque area if you want to expand your gameverse you don’t really have a choice.

Its difficult to try and settle down into the esoteric rule sets of games as there are so many games to play and only so much time to try out things. Player exposure and marketing seems to be the sales making which propels games. A writer can make something good but unless there’s a way to spread the word about it and have people actually play for themselves its dead under a belljar. Let’s Play videos are good and the right way to have interest built. We’re visual creatures that like new and interesting things to look at and therefore will seek out the exciting shiny which trips our trigger (that tricky Step Two that underpants gnomes never mentioned).

Rules sets that are minis agnostic are a way to sell a system but they might not have a way to continue on with the game. GW, as much as they are the Apple of TTWG, have the idea on selling the game and hobby together with the revamping of rules sets when sales are slowed (piquing the player base interest with new sculpts/codices and allowing 3rd party creators to Game In the Gaps before official releases). As Sludge was highlighted last week I got interested in the ‘What if…?’ and then promptly set myself back into having enough to paint at the moment. Perhaps the wow factor and click of unique aesthetics with rules is more rare than considered. I think that Moonstone and Wyrd’s Malifaux have struck this balance.

I keep thinking @brennon was talking about painting the Ben Eltons. Had to go look at his project to see that they were called the Ven Altens.

HAPPY SUNDAY!!!!!!!! QUESTION does anyone know of a good set of solo ww2 rules??

Do rules matter? Yes, absolutely!

I took a nearly 20 year break from the hobby and when I got back in, the first game I tried was 40K. Beautiful models, amazing lore, a ton of local players and just crap rules with old and tired mechanics I gave it up because the game was unplayable.

I’ve played a lot of other table top miniatures games since then.
Wild West Exodus for example. Lovely models, lore was a bit convoluted but ok. Great first edition rules. When the second edition rules came out, it added elements that were unneeded and I won’t play anymore. If I did play again, I’d either use the first edition or massively modify the second edition (because the second edition did in fact have a few good things in it).

I’ve got some great looking WW2 armies in 28mm that I use in Bolt Action. But I’ve played Chain of Command too. Two very different systems, but I’d happily play both.

Do I like the look of ancient Greek armies? Hell yeah! I’v got three rulesets to support them; Mortal Gods, Saga and Clash of Spears. Each focuses on different things and they all play differently, but I’ll happily play them all.

I love Dropzone Commander. And I want to love Dropfleet, it has some really amazing mechanics, but I find Dropfleet unplayable. But now A Billion Suns has come out so now I can breathe new life into those amazing Dropfleet miniatures.

Blood and Plunder is a fairly popular game. Who doesn’t like pirates? Me. I’ve got zero interest. I played some games, really liked the mechanics, but pirates just don’t interest me. Now, I have an interest in WW1 but never really considered playing a game set in that time period. But along came Blood & Valor. And that ruleset is basically Blood and Plunder, revised for the era. I knew I’d be interested and bought the rule book. I now have four armies for this ruleset and when the second book comes out will probably start more armies.

So yeah, rules matter.

Oh, and @avernos, I play Muskets and Tomahawks and like to play the French and Indian War and the American Revolution. I have no interest in Napoleonics but will probably pick up Shakos and Bayonets just because it’s such a good ruleset.

The self-proclaimed leader on the market and most prominent company in our hobby (regrettedly) perfectly exemplifies the style over substance-mindset which is widespread in our hobby: Games Workshop. Allegedly the ‘best’ minis on the market (which is laughable as a statement), they purposefully use spam-marketing which never provides any substantial information on the upcoming products, but heavily and exclusively rely on visuals and fluff instead.