3D printing and the enviroment #teamseas

[tankkommanderParticipant 6441xp 0]

“Adding taxes to make stuff more expensive isn’t going to help one bit.”

Adding a small ‘tax’ on single use plastic shopping bags has reduced the number of bags used significantly.

So a packaging tax could be an effective method of reducing excessive packaging, or a switch to non plastic packaging.

I don’t think we will see any larger YT channel jump on this. Why? Because they exist to shill for the hobby companies. They rely on the free stuff. So they are not going to bite the hand that feeds by asking awkward questions about the environmental damage that all this plastic is having, or about labour rights in china, or poor wages for workers, or any of the other dirty little subjects.

[tankkommanderParticipant 6441xp 0]

“I’m sure the amount of waste from the hobby is miniscule compared to, say, single use packaging for take out.”

So doing nothing is okay? Follow this logic down the rabbit hole and see where it leads you.

[blinky465 17033xp 2]

An LCD display with say 1000-hours in it isn’t going to last that long before having to be replaced

I’ve an Anycubic Photon and am still on the original screen, after almost two years. I’m not sure that I’m anywhere near the 1,000 hour mark. And I consider myself to have printed “a lot” of minis (enough that I gave a 2ft cube box of minis away to a local gaming cafe a few months ago and still have more minis in the “to do” pile than on my “done” shelves).

A single “print run” produces on average eight minis and takes about four hours (there or there abouts). So at 1,000 hours, I’d have printed about 2,000 miniatures. Irrespective of how long that takes, that’s  hell of a lot of minis! I’m a single-user, not a miniature-printing factory; 1,000 hours is going to keep me going for years!

I think the problem with LCDs on 3d printers is that many have been broken through misuse, rather than burning out through over exposure to UV light (so few ever get anywhere near the 1,000 hour mark). This isn’t the fault of the machine, or the technology, but ignorance of the user. If users learned to look after their screens, they’d last longer (in the same way, if everyone driving a car crashed one and disposed of it once a week, we’d say the problem is with the drivers, not the cars).

So – at the risk of upsetting a few people – replacing a 5″ screen every two years or more *compared to some of the other disposal issues we have as a society* I’m not going to lose much sleep over it. It’ll have lasted longer than the kettle I bought from a supermaket last year which is already failing, for example.

Of far more concern – environmentally – is boxes and sprues (which, by weight, make up about two-thirds of the weight of plastic in a box of minis, which is then thrown away). If we’re going to get so critical that *zero* waste is the target (rather than aiming to reduce it) we should all go back to lead pewter miniatures (though we’ll never hear the end of it from @avernos who will insist he was right all along).

For me, 3d printing is far more ecologically sound than buying boxes and boxes of “plastic crack”. I’ve *reduced* my waste by stopping buying plastic minis. The “product” goes from creator (digital 3d artist) to the consumer (me, printing minis) without the need for power-hungry factories to make the minis, “exploited workers” (as tankkommander referred to), packaging, shipping, warehousing, onward delivery from the retailer (with its own additional packaging). By weight, I dispose of about 35% of the resin I print (throwing away the “scaffold” support structures) and maybe an LCD screen every two? three? years. It’s not zero-waste. But it’s multiple degrees better – environmentally – than buying retail minis.

Save the planet – get a 3d printer 😉

 

 

[captainventanusParticipant 5097xp 0]

How much wear there will be on a 3D printer depends on what your requirements are. If you want to print out a few 10mm KoW/Warmaster armies a few hours will be enough to get you months for of stuff. If you want to print out a Battlefleet Gothic fleet its going to take you a lot longer.

In the first month of having my Mars I got through 98 hours of printing as I was gaining experience and fine-tuning a few designs. In the second month I pretty much did nothing as I was away for work a lot. In the third month with everything set up as I want it I will easily get through another 100+ hours.

I don’t see that as a problem and have factored in wear and tear. That coupled with other consumables like resin, gloves, clearer, the packaging etc. doesn’t make the process particularly green. And most printers used for private purposes are at the end of a long supply chain from China. As I said somebody with the right knowledge could work out exactly the footprints are.

Printers are getting faster and these later generation ones are using components better suited to the task so have more longevity it them too.

[blinky465 17033xp 1]

@captainventanus – absolutely spot on; but just about everything (electronic) manufactered has a carbon trail leading all the way back to China (although based in Nottingham, and they used to spin-cast Citadel miniatures there, quite a few GW minis are also produced in China now – and almost all their print/packaging comes from there, according to their investors reports).

So, as I see it,  you can buy a 3d printer with a single supply path, or mutliple boxes of plastic, each of which is manufactured and shipped from the other side of the world – if everything has a trail back to China (component costs, packaging + shipping) then fewer trips = better, right?

On consumables, it drives me crazy watching Youtube videos where people whack on a pair of nitrile gloves, use them for 30 seconds, then take them off and throw them in the bin. I use (reusable) marigolds – and maybe changed them two or three times in two years! The resin is turned into miniatures (and about 30%-35% by weight discarded after curing). I’ve used a single coffee jar of acetone for about a year now. The amount of “consumable” going to waste is pretty low with 3d-printed minis (compared to plastic boxed sets).

It’s not waste-free, and it’s not “green” but it’s not as “toxic” as many people (usually who don’t have a 3d printer) worry about either. Obviously, if you’re printing 24-hours-a-day your hardware will wear out and need replacing more quickly than those of us who print a couple of times, maybe once a week (or fortnight). But that will also produce *a lot* of minis (the comparable “green” cost of manufacturing, packaging and shipping factory-made, plastic counterparts from the other side of the world, many many times over would be much higher?)

[ced1106Participant 6224xp 1]

> So doing nothing is okay?

“Doing nothing” does not mean you don’t reduce how much pollution you create. But you should reduce it in ways that have more impact than others. Dunno where you’re located, but, in the USA, we have an entire political football created around an environmental concern, when it’s more obvious that you cut back on how much plastic (and paper) you’re using, take-out, hobby, or otherwise.

[blinky465 17033xp 0]

It feels like we’re in danger of comparing two things (at least, when talking about 3d printing).

ABS filament isn’t recycleable (easily) and PLA is a corn-starch based product (I think it smells lovely when printing, like sugary popcorn). We all seem to agree that resin is “full of nasty toxins” but nobody *actually* knows what goes into it – other than the labels are a bit scary and it comes from China (where they don’t have strict environmental laws) so it’s probably full of chinesium or something.

BUT – as long as a 3d printed mini has acrylic paint on it, and is sitting proudly on a display shelf, it’s not “environmental waste”. It’s only waste once it’s thrown in the bin!

If we’re going to get hung up on the “carbon footprint of creating the printer” (as discussed earlier in the thread) then we’ve wandered off the original topic which was “what do you do with your failed prints, left over supports and test prints” (and for a true comparison with boxed sets would need to investigate the carbon footprint of setting up a factory!).

The truth is, most of it goes in the bin. I probably consider myself an exception to most 3d printer users because I’ve been tinkering with them for more than 10 years and *have* built homebrew plastic grinders, made shonky injection moulding machines and built machines to recycle 3d prints into printer filament (even if the end result isn’t as good as “virgin” filament). After all, it’s still just a thermoplastic. But I understand that most people haven’t.

So, yeah, I “chug it (cured resin supports) in the bin”.

But do so knowing I’m throwing far less in the bin than I would if I was buying the same number of minis in retail boxed sets! And until I bin my collection of minis, the only environment they’re impacting is my own living space 😉

[brutalcitiesParticipant 81xp 0]

As I just started designing and printing terrain, during my research I came across this filament called PHA:

But the main company in the US stopped making it just after I discovered it! I’ll be keeping an eye on it though, it’s a very important issue.
Video about PHA >

https://youtu.be/dCDGhsRTCNU?si=58DawUYV1gcqDWcR

Reddit group >

https://www.reddit.com/r/3DPrinting_PHA/

 

[sundancer 43367xp 2]

*cough* so much dust in this old topic 😉

@brutalcities I have heard of PHA before but I doubt it will be any good in our hobby. Reason: We build things to last “some time” and every component that is planned with “being degradable” is in opposition to that.

There might be way to prevent premature degrading but I doubt that most will care for it. Same with Resins. Nature isn’t made to last. It’s made to cycle through stages.

All in all it’s a testament to metal miniatures. They don’t harm anybody (ignoring led minis) and the material can be used over and over again until the git is finally silent then you take the minis out of the sock and melt them down.

But in all seriousness please keep us informed on the topic. As @avernos often says: It’s easier to do something when somebody else has already done the heavy lifting and research XD

[brutalcitiesParticipant 81xp 3]

haha oops, didn’t see the date of the thread, just got excited at the topic!

Agree, metal miniatures are the best imo. They also have a sharpness that the best plastic can not achieve. I think for example, CB’s minis have more fidelity than GW’s.

When I have found a great solution I’ll be sure to post it here! – I would like to try some real world PHA tests for terrain.

[sundancer 43367xp 1]

maybe someday we’ll have 3D metal printers at home 😉

[solarParticipant 2794xp 2]

Over-reacting is also a thing and as the UK is a very good example of you cannot regulate and tax your way to solving every single issue that arises.

 

If you want to look at real pollution then you need to look at countries like India, Pakistan, China etc. I refuse to pay a tax rate of 60% + to subsidise other countries who continue to massively pollute the environment with no care.

This kind of navel gazing is the exact reason why the West contributes BILLIONS into helping these issues with seemingly no perceivable improvement in the way other countries operate. Its a huge scam

[wolfie65Participant 1250xp 0]

Metal will always be my favorite material for figures, I try to use as many natural – or at least biodegradable – materials as possible, I even abandoned acrylic (= plastic) paints many years ago and switched to watercolors. They are a little challenging to use at first, but I’ve come to love their working characteristics and the way the figures look finished.

Plastics have their uses, but just like computers have become WAY too powerful, common and ubiquitous – I think they should be scaled back to where they were about 2000 or so, that was just about right – but there is definitely too much plastic in our lives. including even food …….Cancer, for example, wasn’t much of a thing prior to muh1950s, which is when all sorts of artificial additives started appearing in food, drink and everything else.

While I have to admit that I am guilty of buying a bunch of 3D prints and resin models over the past few years, they will never be my favorites. They are, for the most part, horrendously fragile – I’ve had a Rabbit assassin break 3 times in 2 different places just during prep and painting, ditto for some Carnevale figures, Baron von Fancyhat from Moonstone did, surprisingly, not break during this process, but I am afraid of actually using him in a game, his sword and pinky are just much too thin and delicate, a recent shipment of 3D printed Hobbit minis had suffered all sorts of breakage in the mail, etc. etc. etc.

Btw, I am VERY careful with my ‘This Is Not A Toy’ toy soldiers and by no means clumsy…..

In short, the longevity of 3D printed as well as resin figures is very much in doubt. The material itself may not break down for several millennia, but the figure as such….I dunno…..

Give me metal any day, including even pure lead. I have some of the original  .Valley of the Four Winds, Aureola Rococo and Mythical Earth figures from Minifigs, the very first fantasy minis ever made , vintage 1970-something, and except for a few bent spears (lead is soft), they are fine. And they are 100% recyclable. As well as fun and easy to paint, since they do not have 17 straps, 30 flasks and 7 swords hanging off them.

Speaking of painting, while 3D printed figures do often look very cool and dynamic, thanks to the very deep undercuts the procedure makes possible, those selfsame undercuts make painting quite difficult. How do you get even the skinniest brush between the body and that billowing cloak ? If using acrylics, the answer is, of course: BlackPrimer™. Don’t paint what you can’t see…..

I am working on the Heartless Queen https://www.etsy.com/listing/1720570004/the-heartless-queen-great-grimoire?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=Heartless+queen&ref=sr_gallery-1-2&content_source=a87a678adcd481e10348dd8df1e13c0e504b0f6a%253A1720570004&search_preloaded_img=1&organic_search_click=1 right now, in 28 mm scale, she comes in 1 piece and painting her lower body and the inside of her hoop skirt is kind of a nightmare. Don’t paint what you can’t see indeed.

[wolfie65Participant 1250xp 0]

I forgot: Speaking of environmental pollution, 95% of the trash that ends up in the oceans comes from 5 rivers, all of them in Africa and Asia. Just one of things to keep in mind the next time you cast a ‘vote’ (see Mark Twain on that subject) for your own destruction.

[grantinvanman 2481xp 0]

Am I the only person left who saves all their batteries to give to the owls once a year? I’ll bag them up, and toss them deep into the woods, where the feathered folk use them to power their homes. At least, I hope they use them, and don’t just leave them to degrade. Whatever, I give the choice to the owls!

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