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This topic contains 55 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by  limburger 6 days, 5 hours ago.

Viewing 11 posts - 46 through 56 (of 56 total)
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  • #1758889

    jamescutts
    6484xp
    Cult of Games Member

    Just to add, while I don’t think OTT content is the right place to call out failures or issues in Kickstarters, I do think the Kickstarter sections of the Weekenders for example should be slightly more upfront in pointing out your not buying something, your investing in it and you may not get it.

    Something I think sometimes gets overlooked in @brennon excitement, because he really wants to sell you Dwarfs so he can have them too 😉

    Heck I’ve love a tong in cheek, radio style “terms and conditions may apply” style bit at the end of the KS sections from @warzan 🤣 though I’d settle for a simple lower third overlay with a warning.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 1 day ago by  jamescutts.
    • This reply was modified 1 week, 1 day ago by  jamescutts.
    #1758892

    warzan
    Keymaster
    27678xp

    @jamescutts While I don’t want to shirk any responsibility here 🙂 We have been covering KS now for probably over 10 years. What solution to what problem does adding a terms and conditions bit actually provide? (aside from giving us one more thing to remember to put in the show lol)

    And if we think after over 10 years of Kickstarter, todays backers still don’t know what the terms and risks are (after so many high profile failures) – then there is a more fundamental problem with Kickstarter itself and our little disclaimer is like a drop in the ocean is it not? 🙂

    #1758912

    jamescutts
    6484xp
    Cult of Games Member

    @warzan You’ve got me thinking to come up with reasoning for random ideas now, sounds like work 😀

    My best guess as to the problem, being (subjective of course) is that Kickstarter has become a bit normalised, so in effect its somewhat treated as a product purchase or a pre order, even with the best attempts of KS to remind people as they back that its a investment with risks (and it is ultimately KS and the creators responsibilities).

    I guess the solution is maybe a subtle reminder of what a KS entails just as a little attempt to help pass around some education so people are aware and we don’t get any disappointed hobbyists.  Tbh the terms and conditions was just a funny thing that popped into my head but I imagine a quick title card thing for the KS section or even a note in the video description with the KS links would just be a small thing that might help.

    Just looking back on the weekender so I’m not talking complete rubbish, it sort of just jumps into the KS section without really letting you know what it is, I guess that in all credit is due to how great your coverage has been over the years that just seems normal but I guess if you watched it the first time, after all the other sections generally being about purchasing things it could easily be miss under stood to a newbie. Certainly in no way suggesting your shirking any responsibility though, I may have worded the idea a bit wrong, just know you folks over at OTT are good people and every little helps if it keeps a fellow hobbyist happy.

    #1763934

    tankkommander
    Participant
    6114xp

    Is the intention for OTT to be a ‘news’ service for the community, or just another advertising platform?

     

    #1763940

    warzan
    Keymaster
    27678xp

    How about you show some manners eh?

    #1763963

    redscope
    Participant
    2326xp

    @jamescutts It is an interesting subject I have been thinking about and not one that is directed at OnTabletop but applies more to social media of all forms and the relationship they have with kickstarters and what the responsiblity is. If a company sends you a product to review the advice is as long as you are honest with that relationship and you point that out fair enough.

    It becomes slightly more complex when it comes to be paid for adverts. This I dont know what releationship a given youtuber had with any kickstarter company. If they are paid to promote the product again clear guidelines exist that you have to be clear that is the case.

    I think if you start to view this as an investment it is a different ball game. Because we have strict laws in most countries about investments. It becomes a Fiscal issue in most cases and hence why Kickstart is very clear on this as well

    Investment is not permitted on Kickstarter. Projects can’t offer incentives like equity, revenue sharing, or investment opportunities.

    Kickstarter is also very clear on Donations and charity again because of the legal requirements for charity status it is not premitted.

    Kickstart clearly state the following :-

    Everything on Kickstarter must be a project with a clear goal, like making an album, a book, or a work of art. A project will eventually be completed, and something will be produced by it.

    So kickstarter is more like a tradecheck trying to match up customers with companies offering goods or services and the contract is between those parties. Kickstarter itself is just a middle man.

    The key is the contract you sign with any 3rd party. If they are offering a product in return for payment that is as I understand a pre-order process. This is slightly the problem that you have different types of kickstarters with different models the vast marjority are contracts for products or services at defined prices.

    I think perhaps where it gets interesting for social media youtubers is more of a moral issue or perhaps reputation issue is a better way to put. If you provide content and putting your name against that kickstarter that is an assoication and if that kickstarter fails or the company has problems then the risk is you damage that trust between you viewers and your customers through that link. Which is why it is important for people in that position to be honest.

    I think the issue is then often those parties are in the dark to a large degree what they are told by the kickstarter companies. If you told they only need 200,000 in funding even if you think that is complete rubbish it is difficult to question it and even if you do they are going to stick to the company line.

    I think kickstarters and will live and die by reputation we have seen some high profile companys affected by that already and have paid a price with some projects.

    I would like to see more due diligence with kickstarters more of the plan and fiscal details are given. Companies need to focus more on the delivery plan rather than on vast amounts add on’s. Social media and companies promoting kickstarters need to be clear about the relationship they have with the company. Not suggesting that does not happen already but often the relationship is complex and changes and it is difficult for a consumer to make an informed choice.

    • This reply was modified 1 week ago by  redscope.
    • This reply was modified 1 week ago by  redscope.
    #1763978

    jamescutts
    6484xp
    Cult of Games Member

    Yeah that thinking is very much aligning to mine @redscope.

    Perhaps “investment” is not the best wording on my part as you say that has certain implications in many countries, it more just how I tend to view and approach Kickstarter and a relative easy explanation to use, I’m buying into an idea or concept in the hope that it comes to fruition and I get something from it, but fully understand its a risk and i may not.

    I think you’ve sort of got at what maybe inspired my idea (ill be honest, at the time it just popped in my head and it was relatively early in the day) that OTT  should perhaps have some sort of disclaimer in its content such as the weekender, and maybe you could say news articles that feature KS, I don’t include the banner ads and the like on the on the website, those I  totally accept are advertising that helps support OTT.

    I’d hate to think somebody sees a Kickstarter on the weekender lets say, backs it without fully thinking of the implications, because lets be honest sometimes we impulse buy particularly on a Friday night after a few beers and then one day that person has something happen like Darkest dungeon, or Fabled realms and then goes “hey those guys on OTT set met onto this” and it eventually negatively impact OTT in some way.

    As you say there’s not really any accountability or due diligence that anyone can go on to say hey we want to be associated with this which makes it very hard. Equally, the weekender for example is only news.

    In and ideal world I’d like to see some sort of “Kickstarter, be warned you may not get it” disclaimer akin to the #ad/#gifted disclaimer you see quite commonly adopted across social media or that ever has laws around it like in New Zealand. I guess in some ways a bit like the “OTT is part of Wayland” disclaimer.

    Just to reemphasise, I’m not calling OTT out on this or anything, I think the team does great work and offers a great community, my idea was very much coming from I’d like to ensure that other hobbyists are as best informed and learn from the lessons of others as much as not seeing OTT impacted negatively in any way by association and by extension as you say something I’d like to see applied across various social media channels etc.

     

    • This reply was modified 1 week ago by  jamescutts.
    #1766244

    ced1106
    Participant
    5561xp

    > Is the intention for OTT to be a ‘news’ service for the community, or just another advertising platform?

    Somebody has to pay for this stuff, and if it isn’t you or me, guess who it is.

    Before the internet ruined everything, we had these things called “magazines” which reviewed content. Except, as that Driv3r video showed, many magazines that had reviews were more interested in their advertisers or getting “first” content — and their readers even paid for the magazine, unlike today, where everything is “free”. Consumer Reports (go ask your aging parents) bought their own products for review and accepted no advertising, and was supported with subscriptions — again, until the internet arrived and ruined everything.

    Online journalism is an oxymoron, but traditional media news is hardly unbiased or neutral, particularly around politics. But, returning to the hobby, there are so many creators out there, but they’re small and have little advertising budget. News or advertising, Beasts of… er, OTT, provides at least myself an idea what’s out there. They’re, in fact, pretty unique, but if you don’t want their adver — er, “news” — you could always check out Dakka Dakka forums, Lead Adventure forums, or Reaper Miniatures and Dwarven Forge forums (ironic, since they’re not just advertising, but owned by their respective hobby companies).

    #1768315

    limburger
    20755xp
    Cult of Games Member

    Can we blame backers as well ?
    Whenever I see kickstarters that don’t go overboard with add-ons, stretchgoals and such crap the comment sections are flooded with backers demanding “more”.

    Backers also ‘demand’ priority and exclusives to justify the money they’re burning to themselves …

    @jamescutts Mythic have pretty much said that they are going to re-focus their projects on smaller efforts, because it’s become obvious that large scale projects simply aren’t predictable enough with the infrastructure and logistics as they exist.

    The successrate of kickstarters is kind of the problem here. Once a kickstarter reaches its funding goal the vast majority succeeds in delivering a product. They may not always hit the deadline they’ve set, but on average they do.
    Net result is that a lot of pre-funding failure is hidden from view. This makes it look like backing a kickstarter is about as safe as pre-ordering from a shop.

    I think that there’s no amount of disclaimers/reminders that can fix this.

    *People simply can’t put a value on a risk if there is no real immediate danger. *

    Kickstarters & crowdfunding in general are IMHO a loophole that was needed to allow people with no real access to investors the opportunity to start a business.

    The real problem is that (as always) the people who need to listen never do.
    It’s like buying crap at a store and then complaining that it doesn’t work as advertised … when you could have read the reviews to know that it was most likely going to be crap.

    If one doesn’t make the effort to ensure some basic safety for the money you’re investing/donating … then one should complain if things do go pear shaped.

    A simple checklist will work wonders :
    (1) how do I feel if I don’t get anything after giving money to X ? and how much extra money am I willing to give ?
    (2) how do I feel if I don’t get anything at the given deadline ? and how much extra time am I going to give them ?
    (3) what options do I have if either thing happens ? (and can I rely on those options ?)
    (4) assuming those options don’t work out either … would I still invest the money and time ?

    Write your answers on a piece of paper and keep it with your kickstarter.
    I bet that if you are honest … then you are likely going to avoid more kickstarters, because your answer to the last question will be ‘nope’.
    And even if you’re investing you will have a reminder of what you thought at the start and you can reassess your thoughts with less emotions and more cold hard logic.

    We shouldn’t blame others for not thinking of our needs if we don’t learn to think for ourselves.
    There is no incentive for others to think of our needs, because the reward for them is likely not to our benefit.

    /ramble

    #1768321

    ced1106
    Participant
    5561xp

    > Can we blame backers as well ?

    Backers: Why u delay?
    Reaper: Okay, we’ll put a deadline with some padding.
    Backers: Imma not gonna back cuz u deliver too long from now.

    Internationals: You give Americans free shipping! We don wanna pay for Americans.
    Reaper: Okay, we’ll charge actual shipping.
    Internationals: Why you raise shipping charges?

    I forget: We pay VAT!
    Americans: We don wanna pay for internationals.

    CMON (Bloodmoon) : We’ve just increased shipping charges without telling you.
    Backers: BOOO WE NO BACK U AGIN!
    CMON (Whatever) : We’re charging higher shipping charges because the estimated charges was only for the base game and no stretch goals.
    Backers: BOOO WE NO BACU AGIN!
    CMON (Massive Darkness 2) : We’re gonna charge VAT even though we didn’t tell you during the campaign.
    Backers: NOOO WE NO BACK U AGIN!
    CMON (Marvel Zombies) : Look. More miniatures.
    Backers: ALLIN ALLIN ALLLINNNN

    Backers: OMG CMON SHIPPING CHARGES OMG
    Backers: OMG MYTHIC ANASTYR ALLIN ALLIN ALLIN PLEJ PLEJ PLEJ
    Backers: OMG MYTHIC ANASTYR Y U CHARGE SO MUCH FOR SHIPPING

    Backers: ACTUAL SHIPPING CHRGES WHEN READY TO SHIP PLZ
    Reaper: We don’t know how much shipping will be so we can’t provide estimates, but here’re some example weights for shipping.
    Me: **waits for KS comments when stuff is about to ship**

    Me: Post your favorites. 😛

    #1768332

    limburger
    20755xp
    Cult of Games Member

    @ced1106 😀 yeah exactly
    I really pity the creators who have to read all those moronic comments in order to know if there is anything important to fix.
    I bet the vast majority don’t even bother to look at the official contacts … (or understand that there may be mere humans at the other end that have to process thousands of mails each day/week … )

    People really are The Wurst!(tm)

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