(KS) Ninja Division/Soda Pop out of money for Super Dungeon Explore: Legends

[yoshiParticipant 3196xp 3]

Funny.

Wasnt it Ninja Division that complained about Kickstarters toxic atmosphere and their customers behaviour towards their company, without acknowledging happenings like this make people aware and critical of such failures.

I wonder if the CEOs allowed their paycheques not to arrive.

[rollsk1Participant 129xp 0]

Well that’s a dam shame! I backed relic knight heavily and thought we at least would get the starter set XD

I am more sad then angry sure I lost about 200 euros but the real tragedy is the loss of jobbs and some  good games/models.

c’est la vie

 

[odinsgrandsonParticipant 4288xp 0]

I really do wonder what the chances are that the manufacturer will give them credit, or that the project will be rescued by someone who wants to buy Ninja Division.   I think it is impossible to tell how likely either scenario is right now.  I certainly doubt that NJ will be able to pull themselves out of the hole any other way.

If the manufacturer does give them credit, then they’ll ship out Arcade mode, then it is entirely possible that they could pull themselves out of this hole (though it will take some years to do so, even if they can consistently work manufacturing on credit).

If there is a buyer, the new buyer will probably not be able to do 100% KS fulfillment.  Rather, I’d expect them to do some kind of partial fulfillment.  Since they’ll be seen as an outside benefactor, I would expect that to be taken rather well by the community (who would probably be happy to have anything delivered at this point).  They would probably also make the Arcade set first (but in this case, they could get away with only doing that set).

It wouldn’t necessarily be a poor investment to buy out NJ.  Super Dungeon was CMON’s top selling game before they split with Sodapop, and even then it never really reached its full potential (with the crossover audience it has, it is the kind of game that could sell well from Target, not just the hobby store).

When they started up Super Dungeon Legends, Sodapop looked like a solid Kickstarter investment.  They had run Kickstarters for Ninja All Stars and The Forgotten King, and delivered both without significant delays.  It is a real shame to see them get themselves into this kind of trouble.  I really hope that this isn’t the end for Super Dungeon.

[ratzingerParticipant 52xp 2]

Guys sorry but I find the nice words for Sodapop out of place. What is it, Stockholm sindrome?  These guys stole from backers (from Legends and presumably from the following projects as well). They not only hid the truth but unashamedly lied. They even tried to blame backers for the “toxic atmosphere” offering a refund BEFORE the facts had been disclosed (not by them by the way). Not only they must refund us but they have to be punished for frode. Kickstarter should be the first to push for such a solution as its credibility is at stake. Obviously it is not realistic to think anyone would buy off a company with such a debt and reputation. Concerning CCON they already have a competing product on the market so the only market value would be killing a competitor that is already dead? This is a matter of principle otherwise anyone could just come up with a kickstarter take your money and run how can u be ok with this? Let me remind u all that the original goal for that campaign was $80,000 so I do not care whether they are 750k$ short to bringing Legends to retail… either they hand the product to backers or they refund. What they wanna do with retail is not my problem.

[odinsgrandsonParticipant 4288xp 1]

I get what you’re saying, but if anything they say is true (and they did offer documentation to the AG) then they did not profit from all of this.  US law is not designed to punish people for making poor business decisions.

The SDL Kickstarter has sunk Ninja Division’s best selling property.  The guys at Sodapop have not profited from this, and Ninja Division has really suffered.  If they don’t start turning this around relatively soon, I think they’ll be closing their doors.  And they can’t turn it around completely without fulfilling Legends.

Kickstarter cannot hold its creators responsible without taking responsibility for their actions.  If KS takes responsibility for their creators, then they have to be gatekeepers for the projects, and if there are gatekeepers like that, it defeats the purpose of Kickstarter.

Should SPM have behaved differently?  Yes, in quite a few ways.  But that doesn’t equate to criminal actions.

[ratzingerParticipant 52xp 3]

Wait… we are not talking a company that mismanaged ITS own money here guys…  it was OUR money. Also they kept issuing new kickstarters cashing more money while knowing they could not fulfil them. Assuming, as KS states, we are not just customers but investors here, they kept lying to their investors and falsifying annual/midterm results and reports in order to deceive the market is definitely a crime in Europe and I am quite sure it is a crime in the US. It is FRAUD pure and simple. I am sorry they suffered but u see, people in Indonesia are also suffering after the tsunami, I don’t see how we should feel sorry for SodaPop. Also we are not working for SodaPop so there is no reason why we should be concerned with their financials and future: our business is the product not the company.. we did not buy SodaPop stock options guys! Luckily! Anyway I copy from Wikipedia: “Fraud is deliberate deception to secure unfair or unlawful gain, or to deprive a victim of a legal right. Fraud itself can be a civil wrong (i.e., a fraud victim may sue the fraud perpetrator to avoid the fraud or recover monetary compensation), a criminal wrong (i.e., a fraud perpetrator may be prosecuted and imprisoned by governmental authorities), or it may cause no loss of money, property or legal right but still be an element of another civil or criminal wrong.[1] The purpose of fraud may be monetary gain or other benefits, such as obtaining a passport or travel document, driver’s license or qualifying for a mortgage by way of false statements.”

[koldanParticipant 364xp 1]

@odinsgrandson

You actually think they got not payed by their own company? The company used the money from the kickstarters mostly to pay the annual overhead, which they define in their answer as payrolls and facillity leasing. So yes they (as the persons not the company) had a profit from delaying it and instead creating other kickstarter projects.

To citate their answer how they planed to get the money back for the super dungeon project: “Raising the funds needed was attempted (and continues to be attempted) through profits of non-Super
Dungeon projects…”

This sounds like they started the relic knight kickstarter with the intention to use the funds generated this way to plug the holes in the super dungeon explorer kickstarter. The Relic Knight kickstarter started 2017, if i remember correctly, when they already had used up all the money from super dungeon explorer and started looking to get money from other projects for it. So Super Dungeon Explorer may be mismanagment, but the relic knight kickstarter seem to be fraud. The money was never intended to be used for relic knights, at least not 100%.

 

[redbenParticipant 9415xp 1]

They laid off staff, downsized, and put their own money into keeping the company running. They said raising the funds needed was attempted through profits of non-SD projects, not revenue. If the RK KS made a profit, then that profit would go towards SDL.

[limburger 21534xp 0]

I will agree with NinjaDivision here … backers can be incredibly toxic in their comments.
Even the mere wiff of a delay causes outrage and cries of fraud. Lack of stretchgoals or any additional ‘freebies’ or ‘exclusives’ is also often met with comments that are not so positive (to say the least).

Actual fraud is doubtful, because there’d be evidence and it is considered a crime pretty much everywhere in the world.
Mismanagement can cause problems which result in them not completing their kickstarters, but it is not a crime. That simply is the cost of doing business.

And as far as Relic Knight is concerned … we have had previews and beta rules. So even if they don’t deliver we’re not left with empty hands. We can play the game, although only those of us with access to the old kits will have the ‘correct’ figures.

The one thing we need to be aware of is that kickstarter money doesn’t have the legal status of an investor.
It is more like a donation with a promise of a reward and a moral obligation to do the best they can to complete.
That’s why you should never risk money you can’t afford to lose.

In the worst case scenario (bankruptcy) even investors rarely see their money returned, because taxes are first to be cleared.

If you want 100% perfect protection then you either go big and invest (and do your research into their financial statements etc… ) or wait for the product to reach the retail before committing any money.

[orlandothetechnicolouredParticipant 4380xp 2]

Sadly things are worse than that letter says, Archon/Prodos has been doing their resin casting for them and have posted on one of their KS projects today in response to a backer question about Soda Pop/Ninja division

 

“It won’t be an official statement as we need to wait until Thursday when CEO of Archon will be holding a meeting with Ninja Division about this situation. However, the fact is that we are on hold with all Ninja Division projects due to lack of payment (Starfider, Relic Knights as well as Humble Bundle – Paizo is still not paid). This should not, however, affect what we are doing, as external contracts are about 15% of total Archons turnover. The worst-case scenario is that Archon will have to cover all the manufacturing losses, and this could mean that some of our FUTURE internal projects could be delayed, but that’s nothing major. Anyway, please wait for an official statement. We are all hoping that ND will find some solution. Thanks.

Nov 14 2018 on Chronicle X by Archon Studio”

so despite my initial hope it looks like the manufacturing money from the Starfinder KS wasn’t paid out/ringfenced and has just been swallowed up in operating expenses, so I guess that unless they can sell themselves or bring in an investor with deep pockets and an apetite for significant risk they’re done

 

[redbenParticipant 9415xp 0]

From one of the ND partners in response to this being posted on FB –

” A note from us here – This is unfortunate and does not present a complete picture of the situation. We have aligned resources to finalize all products, and they are slow to arrive. We stand by our status of continuing with the project.”

[onlyonepinman 18053xp 2]

Looks like I won’t be getting my Starfinder models any time soon. Ah well, glad I didn’t spend hundreds of dollars on it.  Then again I deliberately kept my pledge low because Ninja Division had a very mixed reputation.

 

C’Est la Vie.  You win some you lose some.  I reckon I am still quids in with regards to return on investment as far Kickstarters go when you compare what I have paid vs what I have paid at retail.  This isn’t the first or worst Kickstarter pledge I have had go awry.

[angelicdespot 4686xp 1]

I’ve not backed any of these guys’ Kickstarters, nor followed the news about them.

I am reminded though of the way some of the big airlines / tour operators can be close to insolvency and/or suddenly go bankrupt and people lose their holidays.

Obviously some people know that the financial situation is dire before it becomes public, but there is a good reason to keep such knowledge secret.   If the public know a company is in trouble, no one will buy and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.   By keeping problems secret, sometimes companies are able to restructure or trade their way out of difficulty.

I think the only Kickstarter I’ve really lost out on was the Heroquest 25th Anniversary game.   (And actually that wasn’t on Kickstarter but the Spanish Lanzanos.)   The company behind it seemed to have a long and good reputation, but their communication has been terrible.

I’ve backed other Kickstarters that I’ve regretted as the final product isn’t as good as I’d expected, but I don’t think there have been any other disasters.

[senjimakotoParticipant 1365xp 0]

Keeping it a secret would have been fine had they had any products on the shelf that could have kept them above water and get out of this mess. As it stands, only real core product they’ve had on the shelves has been Rail Raiders: Infinite and Way of the Fighter. One was met with fairly good reviews, the other not so much. Their preprainted Starfinder Miniatures have been out a while, too, but I haven’t seen anyone at my LGS willing to spend that kind of money on them ($10 single blind bag or $40 for 4 predetermined).

Bottom line at the end of the day is that having something out there, be it product or information about the lack thereof, would have been better than radio silence and backer bashing that they opted for. Product would have hopefully sold well enough to keep them producing and information (re: detailed, factual, transparent, upfront) would have gotten them plenty of good will and faith.

[limburger 21534xp 0]

Good will and faith don’t pay any bills either.

What really matters is how they’ve behaved towards the people they’ve outsourced their production to.
Companies like Archon Studios need to be convinced that bills will get paid eventually.

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