Medieval Era Systems – Skirmish and Large Battles

[djevakParticipant 40xp 0]

Hey there fellow players! I would like some opinions from you.

I really enjoy historical wargames. But my main focus had been, so far, WWII, with BA and FoW. I use both systems because I like playing campaigns, where there are major battles, but also skirmishes that might alter the outcome of a major battle and the grand scheme of a war theater. I used that approuch in a campaign using as theater the conquest of Italy in WWII, and I absolutely loved the result. Of course, I made some balance mistakes involving the effects of some victory conditions that skirmishes granted to one side or another (allies or axis) on the major battles, but overall it was a lot of fun and me and my group really enjoyed. I now have to make some adjustments on the balance according to our group observations, but I put it on hold because of the subject of this tread.

I am a huge fan of WWII era. But I am truly passionate by the medieval era. It might have something to do with the fact that my father had a doctorate in Medieval history and I grew up reading and hearing tales of knights, castles, chivalry and messy medieval politics. A few months ago, I saw a few things about Saga (from Gripping Beast), because of the launch of its second edition. Altough there is surprisingly not a lot of material on the internet about the game (battle reports, rules tutorials and etc.), I fell in love with the miniatures and, for all I read so far, the system seems pretty solid. And, I discovered that Gripping Beast also have a large medieval battle system: Swordpoint (not only medieval, but it is the era I am interested in). I haven’t been able to read the rulebook yet (but I have ordered it), and there is just almost not any material about that system on the internet (it might be that I’m not looking for it right, I’m not sure).

So, I would like to know you fellows opinions on these systems (Saga and Swordpoint), because I am going to make a grand campaign with the Third Crusade theme. From the battle of Hattin (in 1187), which opened the way to Saladin to conquer almost all crusader states and Jerusalem itself, leading to the call of the Third Crusade. I intend to do a campaign with both skirmish and major battles, that is why I am looking for different systems.

If you can leave some background on these systems or others, I would be tremendously grateful.

P.S.: If any of you like the era and the crusades, there is a lot of excelente material on the Wargames Soldiers & Strategy website (and other ancient eras too – https://www.karwansaraypublishers.com/wss-mag/), on the youtube channel Real Crusades History (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpiumHmUE5EZeLTftxv9qGw), on the Osprey books (I am reading the book “Osprey – Campaign 161 – The Third Crusade 1191), and other sources as well.

P.P.S.: I am already buying Hirst Art molds for the terrain, speacially the castles and city walls for the siege battle. I am currently finishing a remodelling of my home, so if all comes togheter (financially and with the time factor), I might make a tread on the terrain and forces making.

P.P.S.: I don’t want to get too ahead of myself, but after the Third Crusade, I will do a grand campaing about the Reconquista os Spain.

[torros 23816xp 2]

Hi

I’m just heading to work now but I will reply later

@avernos is doing crusade era Saga armies so he should be able to give you a few pointers. He has a project here if you scroll through them all

 

[elessar2590 18207xp 2]

SAGA is great and if you want to go slightly larger then I recommend Lion Rampart by Osprey.

Both games use the exact same minis so you can bounce back and forth plus all the units in Lion Rampart are 50% bigger than Sage (Elites are 6 rather than 4 and Regular units are 12 rather than 8) which makes it easier to work out what to buy.

Plus Lion Rampart shares a lot of the basic mechanics as the rest of the Osprey Series (Chosen Men Napoleonics, The Men who Would be Kings Colonial to name a few) so if you like it you have a pretty good system that you can use for a few periods.

For the bigger battles I would very strongly recommend Impetus and you could base everything for Swordpoint and they’d still work fine with impetus.

Warhammer Historicals either their Ancient Battles or Warmaster Historicals books depending on your preferred scale. They are very hard to get copies of though.

[piersParticipant 25489xp 1]

I would recommend ‘Soldiers of God’ for Crusades as it is specifically designed for the period.

Its very fast playing, with very narrative battles and rules for small engagements, large pitched battles and also sieges.

 

[lloydKeymaster 17736xp 4]

Hey @piers – I’ve not see Soldiers of God before.

Do they have a website or any online community for this game?

At the moment we have a page for it https://www.beastsofwar.com/game/soldiers-of-god/ but there is not a lot of content about it on the internet that I could find with a quick search.

Do you know who the creators/publishers are by any chance? I’m always interested in more ways to play with Saga minis 🙂

Hi @elessar2590 / @djevak – I’ve been looking at Lion Rampart as a possible system for bigger games using Saga minis.

I’ve read the rulebook and it seems very cool, but I need to find an opponent to give it a shot.

At the moment our gaming group is big into Saga & Kings of War, so I need to get someone ready to give Lion Rampart a runout.

Perhaps @avernos and I can give it a go sometime, after all, it’s his Lion Rampart book I’m hoarding in my house lol

Here’s what’s on our site about it at the moment: https://www.beastsofwar.com/game/lion-rampant/ and you can find groups on Facebook about this game. Here’s one: https://www.facebook.com/groups/411956772300198/

[torros 23816xp 1]

Not that enamoured with Lion Rampant. Almost too simple.

[piersParticipant 25489xp 1]

@lloyd

‘Soldiers of God’ is written by Warwick Kinrade, who I work with on Battlegroup, the ex-GW games designer.

There isn’t much online for the rules, apart from a small Facebook group really, though there are a battle reports here and there.

Shame as they are the only rules that have managed to get me playing medieval warfare as they really do reflect the period and the troops involved. It uses a card driven game mechanic and a very interesting pre-battle sequence where players pick their armies battle plan.

Warwick is due to release ‘Soldiers of Rome’ soon…

[lloydKeymaster 17736xp 1]

Hey @piers – sound interesting, I like the sound of a card driven game mechanic and armies battle plans.

What sort of bases sizes does it use, can I just pop 4 Saga minis on a base for Warbases for example?

[lloydKeymaster 17736xp 0]

Not that enamoured with Lion Rampant. Almost too simple.

Hey @torros what about firing a few house rules into it, would that spice it up?

[bigdave 3704xp 0]

I quite like Lion Rampant but it is more of a beer and pretzel kind of game. As @elessar2590 said, it bears a lot of resemblance to other Osprey games but it does make it easier to port rules across. I quite like my Wars of the Roses so I tend to pinch bits from Pikeman’s Lament to supplement Lion Rampant but in truth, it’s worth treating Lion Rampant, Dragon Rampant and Pikemen’s Lament as being variants of the same core rules. Chop and change, bugger about with house rules to your hearts content as like I say, it’s a beer and pretzels kind of affair. Rarely had a game last more than 45-60 mins which suits me down to the ground.

[lloydKeymaster 17736xp 0]

Hi @bigdave – 45-60 mins sounds cool to me.

[torros 23816xp 2]

As Piers has said Soldiers of God are meant to be among the best but I haven’t played them

Quick disclaimer . I don’t like figure removal games so those mentioned are multi bases

I’ll keep the rest of the rulesets to those I have played and think work best for the 3rd Crusade Period

My two favourites are Vis Bellica and Armati though both might be hard to get hold of these days

Basic Impetus works well for this period though maybe not others but is simple and like Armati has army lists included

Art d’lguerre is also good but quite heavy rules wise

At the other end is DBA which is fairly simple but not to everyones taste but very quick

There are many more but haven’t really had much or no experience with them like

Deus Veult

Clash of Empires

Revenge

Flower of Chivalry

Piquet

Ironbow which is a freebie

http://perfectcaptain.50megs.com/ironbow.html

 

There are many many more

 

[piersParticipant 25489xp 0]

@lloyd

You can use any bases, I use four on a 50mm square base but it makes no odds really provided all use the same.

 

Units are 2 – 4 bases in size.

 

The card system is a favourite of mine with ‘Soldiers of God’ and ‘Maurice’ using card systems to really capture the period while being fast and exciting to play.

[djevakParticipant 40xp 0]

Wow! Now, that’s a lot of options to search. I will have a lot of fun! The lenght of the match is not that big of an issue for me, since I really enjoy strategy thinking during the game, as the other players. And, complexity of rules are also not that big of an issue. We can always go with house rules.

As for games that use cards, I’m not that big of a fan, but I haven’t tested that many. So, will take a look at that too.

But, guess I’ll start looking at Soldiers of God and Lion Rampart.

And is great to see so many people liking this period of time.

Another question. It might seem silly, but I don’t really like very much the aesthetics of those large bases with many units. I can see that in larger games, don’t using them might be terrible. Have any of you tried to play more individually with the models (probably with rules adaptation between skirmish/large scale battles)?

[djevakParticipant 40xp 0]

Excelent tip about @avernus project!! I will keep accompanying it very closely!!! Thanks.

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