Remembering D-Day and the difficulty of being a German

[sundancer]

Gee, I never though this topic getting this big and personal and I am thankful to you all for keeping it civilized.  @bothi I hear you on repeated school topics… I hated them in 9th and 10th grade… and the thin ice isn’t even ice sometimes.

Here’s to good people and civilized discussion!

[sundancer]

Oh and I might just add that my grandfather was with the Luftwaffe in WW II as anti air gunner. I still have his war diary somewhere and his Luftwaffe dagger. After the war he was one of the first to be employed in the Bundeswehr Luftwaffe and stayed there until retirement as Oberstleutnant (lieutenant colonel if translation is correct?). And whenever asked he would talk about the war, the people and everything that happened during and after the war. Sadly he’ s not with us any more. Also my brother and I did military service (he’s a Leutnant (lieutenant) and I stayed at a lower rank… it was easy living as Hauptgefreiter (lance corporal))

[wittmann007]

@oriskany – I’m like a Dreadnought. They wake me up whenever I’m needed. 😛

@Sundancer – Reckon you could post a couple photos? Would be fantastic to see those.

[crazyredcoat]

I wanted to take plenty of time to write my thoughts on this, but all the time I spend I am not sure I will truly understand why people have these reactions, and that is not a mark on them in the slightest. I am British, and that is why I can’t understand how a German, or a Pole, or Frenchman would feel about these things. I can empathise, and I do, but I cannot understand. We are all different in how we remember, or even think of, the past. We celebrate great victories and lament horrible defeats, but each of us has our own way of doing this. I feel forgetting is dangerous, and too many people are willing to do so, but when the past is bleak, it can hurt to remember it. As awkward as it may seem, I think that both sides of a conflict discussing it, even if it is in this context with our little toy soldiers, is the best way forward. Let people celebrate in their own way, let them mourn in their own way. If you feel WW2 is too close to home to play games in, then you can do that. I will respect that, but let others enjoy the same freedom. For example, I will never play SS in WW2, I am simply not comfortable with it, but I would never think to tell someone else that they are wrong in thinking the opposite. I feel it is good to invite the German Chancellor to remember the past with us, because they were still people in those bunkers atop the cliffs and lining the beaches and they deserve to be remembered.

[shingen]

Let me add one more angle to view the issue.

I was born in Poland over 30 years after the War ended and even today I suffer trauma connected with the war. When I was a child most TV shows and movies were somehow connected with struggle against the Germans (please note, that in the 70 and 80 one was not allowed to talk about aggression of USSR). My grandparents while talking about their childhood talked almost exclusively about atrocities they suffered, hunger and general misery of those times. My friends at the time were fed with similar stories at their homes. We most often played as soldiers of constipation Home Army or Polish tankers in Polish Folk Army (not sure if the translation is right here) organized by the Soviets – as shown in then popular TV show.

In effect today I can’t imagine myself having any fun in doing anything connected with the War – I can’t see myself playing any kind of wargame set in that time period, regardless of which side I would play.

Many other Poles I know still see themselves (almost personally) as victims of the War and can’t get over that trauma, to the point that even academic discussion about actions of some people in that period is very difficult.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that while no one should forget about history to avoid repeating the same mistakes, focusing too much on some of its aspects may twist whole generations and in the end twist popular understanding of commemorated events and their effects making whole endeavour pointless.

[limburger]

@mecha82 politics are part of this … whether we like it or not.

The simple fact as to wether or not to include German politicians in any WW2 related event is still a sensitive subject to a lot of people, especially the older generations who have had to deal with the immediate effects of the war.

I’d say it is about time we included Germany, because it’s only their ancestors who did bad things during the war.
And to have Merkel present is a great step forward.
It sucks that the news reporters had to make such a weird and awkard caption, but at the same time it would have been weirder to have her excluded from that moment just so that we could have a nice historically accurate picture of the Allies.

And no matter how much we may dislike the likes of Trump or Putin … their ancestors were our allies and as such they deserve to be included.

If we were to exclude people/politicians based on our current politics and personal dislike we’d set the scene for the sequel.
I’d even argue that it was this sort of thing that allowed Hitler to gain power.

Forgive, but do not forget.

// —

I wonder how our Japanese friends deal with this.

[sundancer]

@wittmann007 afraid not. There in a storage box somewhere in the garage. It would be quite an effort to find the correct box. But I’ll think of it should I stumble upon them.

[bothi]

Very well put @crazyredcoat. I couldn’t have said it better.

[skiptotheend]

These posts reminded me

I think dan carlin hints at this is one of his really early podcasts, he basically states that he was writing an essay about the tactical superiority of the mongols and his lecturer was negating him at every turn he only realised later because although he saw it as just history, his ethnically chinese lecturer saw the mongols as murderers during that period.

He then goes on to explain that at some point SOMEONE will write a positive book on the nazis (hes playing devils advocate) the only thing holding it back is time. Maybe although many veterens have died now, they and their stories are still on living memory, maybe in another 50 or 100 years time, countries awkwardness about ww2 will change in time for pure fact. But for now maybe things such as dedicating to d day is for some stilltoo recent.

 

On the japanese front they still havent accepted blame for things which happened in korea and china, so i dont think they ultimately care (also i think their education on that part of history is a bit…skewed

And last parting bit i once had a walking tour around munich which was done by an american about the rise of nazism, he praised the german people for the efforts they done to amend for certain things and that munich  is proud that the jewish community came back and reside in their city (i even saw a protest against a right wing politician whilst there adamently opposed by many many people). But he left a parting shot saying the germans have accepted their history, but what of the countries who helped them control their countries eg: people in france were also rounded up by the french (he named some other countries too) and stated about the regiments made up from other countries who were as fanatical as the german ones. But these countries havent accepted their part and push their blame onto just germany. I found this a fascinating insight

 

[oriskany]

Good to hear from you again @wittmann007 and @bothi .  Oh, and yes the sun came up earlier on the more easterly beaches, but the optimum tide conditions were actually 30-45 minutes later.  For this reason, landings on Gold, Juno, and Sword were set to kick off about half an hour later than on Omaha and Utah.

As far as everything else goes, treat the German soldier with respect, great the Allied solider with respect, never forget the civilians, done.  Everything else starts to devolve into identity politics.

[andre77]

I am just thankful for the Soldiers of the Allies East and West, who got us rid of fascism in europe (at least for a very long time). And i think every politician should be allowed to thank the veterans of this big battle. People should watch out when politicians will stay away from these events. These politicians are trying to change history in their favor. I think Stalin was also a fascist and people are still celebrating him.

Bad things happen at war on both sides. And we germans were best at it, that we have to admit. So many germans still feel ashamed of it. And i think it is not wrong, that we feel this way. But we should not feel guilty. The last veterans of this war will die in the next 5 years. So no one will be left to say to us how it felt to be in this war. Only pictures and distant voices will be left

I’m so with sundancer. We had so many history classes about the third reich in school. I once asked my teacher, why don’t do modern history or ancient history. Futile. These were not included in the plans of classes. History books ended after the WW2. And i would say they now include just 2 more Chapters: The DDR and the Mauerfall.

But i have to say i learned the most of history through wargaming. Sadly at all times there was war. Lucky for us not in middle europe. And not only about formations and battle sites. It is natural that you learn about the people and their thinking. What did we luckily changed. No more obedient behaviour to politicians, nobility or religions. We are free to think, what we think is right. Something fascism always and still tries to prevent.

So i close my wall of text on D-Day.

[wittmann007]

I’ll throw another two cents in. (Mainly to cover myself for the Bootcamp! :O )

So on top of Fallschirmjager, Royal Ulster Rifles, Army Rangers, and 1980’s 82nd Airborne impressions,  I also portray the Norwegian Conscripts/Volunteers with the 11th SS Volunteer Panzergrenadier Division “Nordland”.

Now (as a disclaimer) like any sane person I deplore Nazism. My Grandfather was at the Beach 75 years ago today trying to stop it. However, I feel that these types of representation are acceptable if the people portraying them are:

A) Sane
B) Well informed
C) Portraying it within context
D) Objective

I also use my own spin, that being using it to teach people about how evil Nazism is by showing them what it made people do/forced them into. I could go on with examples of the foreign legions etc, but hopefully you guys catch my drift.

(And now I wait for the ban hammer :P)

PS: Stay tuned to the Boot-camp blog for some cool sh*t. 😉

[crazyredcoat]

@wittmann007 I 100% understand your point, and it’s a fair one. Educating people is the best way to fight things like Nazism, and it is important to show it as such. Personally, I would not be comfortable enough doing it to partake myself. I had enough problems portraying a U.S. soldier in the Anglo American War of 1812, and I was paid to do that. Knowledge is the key to you point, the way I see it, and that is how it should be. As an aside, if anyone is visiting Norway I would highly recommend going to one of the branches of their military museums as they have a lot of information on Norway during the war. Very good museums. (I’m a bit of a fan of Norway so I make no apologies for recommending it. 😛 )

[wittmann007]

@crazyredcoat – We actually have friends in Norway that do Norwegians on both sides of WW2. We got invited last year, but had to bail due to time constraints. Definitely need to make a trip to Scandinavia at some point!

[andre77]

Almost forgot this from the Hamburger Tactica 2014:

Sword Beach Diorama:

Hamburger Tactica 2014 – Ausstellung und Dioramen

[bobcockayne]

@Sundance yup the British  concentration camps in the BOER war for one.

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