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US tariffs and trade woes for gaming

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This topic contains 30 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by  wolfie65 15 hours, 25 minutes ago.

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  • #1924157

    Yes, there are politics here and, unlike the Unofficial Weekender or Hobby Hangout, the pub rules are not absolutely in effect. The only real rules are

    • Don’t Be A Dick
    • Nothing Personal
    • Stay on Topic

    That all being said I think that the focus on our fun is most important.

    The political landscape of trade and how it affects our hobby through industry is on the table. I’ll toss some questions out that we’re in my head that might be relevant and we’ll see where our concerns might fall.

    Does anyone else foresee that the secondhand market for games will go up? How hard will the summer be for the big game conventions? Does there look to be a better future for Euro manufactured games? Is this fuel for the indies, minis ambivalent games and 3D printing or more profit for the decentralized model of Steamforged?

    #1924158

    grantinvanman
    2469xp
    Cult of Games Member

    There are massive implications. The board game industry is 98.9% made in China. 145% tariffs … means it is dead – to the USA.

    GW – 25% Uk made, but their terrain and printing? China.

    Wargames Atlantic and several other companies have already said they are moving ; WA to the UK, several others to Canada.

    GW will likely re-open its Canada office. Pretty much has to, or ship from UK to Canada.

    It’s really unfortunate to see the US become an international pariah. But here we are.

    Kickstarter – I’ve read many that are just throwing their hands up vis a vis the US. Can’t deliver at these rates, no way. Some comments from backers are they will wait the 45 more months until the insanity stops…

     

     

    #1924159

    pagan8th
    Participant
    12559xp

    America has a lot of forests. Maybe no more plastic minis, just get the whittling.

    When shipping went through the roof as a result of covid I stopped backing overseas products on ks. Brexit made things worse. I back UK only projects now to avoid the taxes.

    #1924160

    elessar2590
    18216xp
    Cult of Games Member

    Maybe it’s just that I’m Australian but this sounds a bit weird because for us this is just the norm. There’s literally a name for it called the “Australia Tax” for companies who just arbitrarily charge us more for the exact same products especially digital products. Buying from Chinacast types is the norm (Ukraine has a few as well), using alternative minis for GW games is normal, 3D printing has exploded. Secondhand sales are massive.

    The EU has big Tariffs on major Australian industries (Meat exports 19%), (Lamb 34%), (Pork 20%), Mining and Forestry (Minerals 12%), (Metals 12%), (Timber 10%). For some reason our media are going nuts over 10% US Tariffs which have been paused and never mentions these tariffs, because it’s political and it’s a zinger of a headline and it’s about getting article clicks and watch time for ad revenue.

    I’m getting the same vibes from this that I’ve got for the past 20 years about GW and Australia. They ban us from buying from overseas then charge us prices as much as double other countries for the exact same product. Europeans and North Americans have always just sneered or told us to get over it, makes people a bit apathetic.

    Does anyone else foresee that the secondhand market for games will go up? Probably but it went up during Covid so maybe not that much.

    How hard will the summer be for the big game conventions? Those are a Euro/US thing, not really interested and our biggest/only one was CanCon in January.

    Does there look to be a better future for Euro manufactured games? Considering most/all games I play are Euro/UK hopefully it means more and better games.

    Is this fuel for the indies, minis ambivalent games and 3D printing or more profit for the decentralized model of Steamforged? Maybe although when I visit the website I get hit with this “Notice Due to your selected shipping destination, you will only be able to purchase Warmachine items, Guild Ball and digital products such as PDF’s, STL’s and Free Resources.” so just more of the same I guess.

    @grantinvanman I hadn’t seen the bit about WA moving, can you post a link to them saying it?

    #1924161

    redscope
    Participant
    2721xp

    The tariffs have both a direct and non direct impact on the tabletop industry. The direct cost is a 10% tariff on goods coming into the largest single country market the USA. In the short term the larger companies are likely to take they hit but when the next round of price increases come around they will grow to reflect it.

    Companies that produce goods in China and a lot of card and printed books come from that country are going to be hit with a 145% tariff. China is vastly cheaper to print goods in compared to the rest of the world and the key is the volume and being setup for it. It is simply not possible in the short term to flick a switch and move that production. A lot of goods are made in advance often months but what we will see is products stopped, plans put on hold until some sort of deal can be made.

    Some companies such as Catalyst who make BattleTech I understand have most the minis made in China. For those companies and a lot of board games are really going to feel the impact. At a 145% rate it simply is not economical possible to import goods and sell them. Those companies are likely to stop delivery and route stock to Europe and other countries to sell it.

    In the long term it will be a lot of waiting, cancelled projects and the move to smaller games. We are likely to see from board games more focus on the 40 dollar games and a lot less of the 150 dollar ones. The shift will also be more to digital elements less rule books more PDF, STL for 3D printing rather than mini production. Boards will have to pivot quite a bit if the trade war is long term.

    Indirect costs

    Indirect costs from tariffs act as a tax on those countries. The current rate of “tax” on the American people is the highest single tax increase in history. It is expected to amount to between 4,000 to 6,000 dollar spending increase for the average American family. The direct result is spending will reduce and we have seen the impact on consumer confidence already which results in a need to save money rather than spend. With the tabletop gaming being a luxury product it is one that will face a large decline. The impact of that is likely to be global the effects in the USA are likely to impact other countries consumer patterns as well because the future is so uncertain.

    The larger companies will be impacted but are often in good fiscal positions to weather the storm or switch production to limit the impact. For smaller companies the problems are very real the capital needed to bring production in country are massive and beyond them. We might see increase in American production but even so that production often requires imports from other countries. Costs and prices will go up even with local production.

    Advice

    If you have a game or set of minis that you have always wanted my advice is buy them now. Prices are only likely to go up and by quite a margin it does not appear this trade war is going to end any time soon. We may see companies trying to dump stock that was bound for the USA on other markets such as Europe but I don’t really expect that to affect prices to much.

    Take care with kick-starters. A lot of kick starters rely on China for production and the USA is the largest market for those goods. We have to be blunt that a lot of the smaller companies that use kick-starter might not survive this market. Investing money into 2-3 year projects at this point come at a much higher risk. That is also true for current kick starters expect some to go under and others to face shipping delays.

    Questions

    Does anyone else foresee that the second-hand market for games will go up?

    Maybe some increase. While demand may increase short term the effects on consumer spending will likely kick in soon so less people looking to make a purchase. I think the second-hand market will rise with inflation but I would not to looking to buy load of games to flip them on e-bay later.

    How hard will the summer be for the big game conventions?

    I don’t think it will be. Conventions are largely internal events to countries and companies would have already planned and been ready for them. I think we will see more of an impact later in the year. Companies would now typically start order Xmas production lines that will the biggest impact we will see this year and next.

    Does there look to be a better future for Euro manufactured games?

    Not really. The USA is such a big market for all companies and it is the over all impact due to tariffs will hurt them. It is possible given an economic decline in China we see a large drop in production it becomes cheaper in China. Could we see a company making a product in China cheap only to be sold outside of the USA I doubt it.

    Is this fuel for the indies, minis ambivalent games and 3D printing or more profit for the decentralized model of Steamforged?

    I think this market will increase for games that reduce the demand on China for production. We will see a rise for 40 Dollar basic smaller games certainly. Personally I think 3D printing is still too small a market from the home consumer aspect to really make an impact in the short term. While companies might look at internal production more such as siocasting printers to me the technology for 3D printing really does not scale up well for mass production. The cost and bother, failure rate for larger companies the technology we have at home is just not suitable. I don’t see companies wanted to invest in production with so much uncertainy in the market place.

     

    #1924195

    Good points and I’m glad to poke at other brains here

    @grantinvanman WA and other news is definitely interesting. I second the request for sources, if possible. Seeing a fluid situation with UK and Canadian tariffs that could be a good thing in the long run.

    @pagan8th Whittling. Yes, go back to the days of being a Boy Scout. I’m thinking there isn’t enough patience to carve anything other than meeples. Besides, I like my painting and I’d hate to ruin pretty wood marbling.

    @elessar2590 I was hoping to get some input from Oz. Thank you for the insight. I’d say that I love reaching out to Eureka for their stuff and there hasn’t been an issue with taxes prior to the US. As usual, being on the underside of the planet means shipping is hell.

    @redscope A long form response to consider is appreciated. The in depth on some of the industry really is the kind of thing I believe that needs to be chewed on mentally.

    #1924200

    grantinvanman
    2469xp
    Cult of Games Member

    The WA bit came in a group discussion with 5 friends in the UK; there were links to about 20 companies and how the tariffs are affecting them and their responses, but I deleted my emails. Sorry, take it as “rumour” at this point, then. I didn’t think I would need to keep the emails and links! 🤣

    For what it’s worth, three of the people in the group discussion are connected to the industry in various ways, so I took it as solid news.

    The discussion was revolved beyond WA moving plastics, and more who would do the plastics for WA: Renedra or Victrix, the two big ones in the UK.

     

    #1924235

    athelstane
    Participant
    700xp

    Yikes!

    I forgot about current Kickstarters. Those that have fallen behind schedule, in fact any that haven’t been fulfilled must be at risk?  I get a sense of deja vu here and I wonder how long it is before the companies asked for extra funds as they did post covid. I wasn’t part of it, but I feel for those that had to pay more or not get their product,

    #1924245

    fightcitymayor
    Participant
    2106xp

    Ronnie at Mantic sent out an email today regarding US tariffs:

    At this point we simply need to understand how the tariffs on the UK will be implemented – but I can guarantee that working with our partners we will keep any tariff effects to the absolute minimum. This means there should be a maximum 10% effect on most of the range – once we know exactly the US customs plan we will make it clear to everyone and then enact to minimise the impact as best we are able.

    In terms of Epic Warpath KS fulfilling soon:

    As Epic Warpath was a 2024 Kickstarter we will be looking at the best way to ship this to our US backers with hopefully only a small, or no, change in price. Please watch the campaign updates for the latest, but the team is already looking at several options that should keep tariff effects to an absolute minimum.

    For the new KoW:Champions and latest Halo Flashpoint releases:

    Similarly, working with our US retail partners, Champions and May Halo: Flashpoint releases should be subject to a maximum of 10% tariff, but again we will endeavour to minimise the impact of this where we can.

    With the upcoming Halo Flashpoint Banished box set and the Labyrinth game:

    The next big product on the horizon that is coming ‘complete’ (at the moment) from China is the ‘Rise of the Banished’ set. The Labyrinth board game is also set for Quarter 3.

    Right now, this is in the ‘pain point’ of the tariffs – but again (other than hoping a sensible deal can be done) we will look at all the options before we load this on boats for US pre-orders.

     

    #1924247

    elessar2590
    18216xp
    Cult of Games Member

    @horati0nosebl0wer Australia as a general rule has very low to no tariffs on other countries and only a flat 10% GST tax nationwide that is already included in the price tag. Shipping is what will get you, we can get things shipped from the UK for normally very reasonable prices but the EU and US almost always charge insanely high rates that make it pointless buying from them. Most of us are stuck with buying from our local 3rd party guys who are really good. If you’re US and buying from us you’d get a 10% discount and no extra fees of any kind other than shipping.

    @grantinvanman only reason I ask is because I read a blog post the other day where they were telling Canadians not to worry because the stuff was shipping from the UK warehouse.

     

    #1924256

    grantinvanman
    2469xp
    Cult of Games Member

    @elessar2590 makes sense – I think that will be a valid workaround for many companies that used to order into the US, and then out to Canada, as blanket tariffs (did they go into effect? It’s HARD TO KEEP UP!) of 25% would mean it’s cheaper to ship direct from UK – where Canada doesn’t charge a tariff.

    Hobby “stuff” is duty free in Canada; we only pay GST (if over $80 typically, if at all, if Canada Post/CBSA hits it); and a “handling fee”, which is usually $10 or so, an annoyance but really not horrible. Especially less so on large orders.

    But anything coming from the US is now pretty much guaranteed a counter-tariff. It’s a war, and there are no winners in this one.

    I genuinely just want #teamcholesterol to do its thing and deal with the Big Mac. Stop all this insanity.

     

    I did go to some hobby shops in Melbourne when I was there, and the prices weren’t obscene, but definitely “higher”. I actually bought a few small things and brought them home, a GW novel that was impossible to find – score!, some other small stuff.

    The Australian, NZ, and Canadian tax systems are very much similar. I know there are exchanges that happen with our countries. Also, Canada set up – although I doubt it’s working anymore – Afghanistan’s tax system. I knew one of the guys that did that mission (he was CRA).

    • This reply was modified 5 days, 17 hours ago by  grantinvanman.
    #1924263

    elessar2590
    18216xp
    Cult of Games Member

    @grantinvanman  “I genuinely just want #teamcholesterol to do its thing and deal with the Big Mac. Stop all this insanity.” is that wishing death? Over some tariffs? Covid responses had a bigger impact on price increases than these tariffs which never even came into effect. It’s good to take a breath, step back and put it in perspective.

    Any reciprocal tariffs are the fault of that country, Australia decided not to do them and instead to negotiate and it worked out well for us. Again, the EU has higher tariffs on us than the USA does but nobody seems to be upset by that, because of the TV. The Tariffs didn’t drive food prices through the roof, the tariffs didn’t overwhelm the housing market, but they seem to be the only thing people care about because it’s the trendy thing to care about.

    Our major Supermarkets were caught ripping off farmers by cancelling contracts at the last minute, paying the small penalty then buying up the food for cents on the dollar while massively increasing food prices. Nobody cares about that because on the other side of the planet the USA talked about a 10% tariff that never even came into effect?

    The “Australia Tax” isn’t a tax it’s just the attitude foreigners have to Australia where they markup prices for no reason especially digital stuff, there’s no crazy taxes, no shipping costs but magically it’s more expensive, the term comes from a Government Inquiry which went nowhere. GW is particularly heinous because they ban us buying stuff then their warehouse is in such shambles everything is 2-6 weeks behind so we can’t even order stuff at the same time as other people. Pay more for the privilege of being treated worse.

    Let’s also all be honest, the reason that stuff is cheaper in China is because it’s made in sweatshops without worker protections, right or livable pay. Also they steal IP’s and have no respect for the environment. It’s not like people get stuff made there because of the high quality or speed. Every value we Western Countries claim to hold that makes producing things here more expensive we are happy to throw in the gutter when it comes to China/India/Southeast Asia in general.

    #1924264

    grantinvanman
    2469xp
    Cult of Games Member

    I feel like we’re circling back to our previous stances, which … didn’t end satisfactorily.

    Canada and Australia are vastly different. Canada isn’t backing down, and giving in like Australia did.

    You have your perspective, I have mine…

    And that’s where I’ll off-ramp this time. Respectfully. Peaceably. Please… do the same.

    Good luck!

    #1924278

    Okay all. We do have our stances and the prices we see are going nuts from decisions made above all our pay grades (unless we have hidden politicians among us *eyes the crowd for a second*).

    I think that perhaps where we can turn is the forecasting of what might come with the most likelihood.

    As was pointed out, and we get wind of, KS projects are getting the kaibosh left and right from order prices. As we have recently had the announcement of CGL planning for alternate Battletech universes I believe that will be on the backburner for some time to come. Thinking about the release of the Gundam mini game, it might not be much affected if Bandai keeps it all in house with the plastic production.

    Since word has been that GW has been looking to scale up their production, as very little can be found regularly in stock online through their site, does this look like an event that most plastic producers will rake in cash from?

    #1924337

    tankkommander
    Participant
    6441xp

    Again, the EU has higher tariffs on us than the USA does but nobody seems to be upset by that,

    Not correct. The EU’s trade weighted average tariff rate was 2.7% in 2023, according to World Trade Organization data.

    US runs a massive surplus in services to most of the world.

    So for most countries they should be hitting the US with massive tariffs, rather than the other way around.

    As for little plastic fighting men…it could get real bad for some companies that are heavily invested in KS.

     

     

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