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Grasshoppers and Elephants

Grasshoppers and Elephants

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Project Blog by thebelon Cult of Games Member

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About the Project

This project is my way of trying to compile and complete my growing collection of models from Vietnams resistance war against America era miniatures, rather than having a box of dusty lead it will be rather cool to have a box of painted miniatures. This project has been ongoing on and off for a few years now. It started off as a collection of books on my Kindle about the vietnam war then i got into 15mm with battlefronts tour of duty that i first tried playing at a demo game at the grumpy gamers convention at wayland games. Then i started collecting 20 mm vietnam miniatures for use in FNG, force on force ambush valley and the lard's charlie don't surf rule set. i found the 20 mm miniatures by chance wandering round salute i came across the grubby tanks stall they have a huge range of us and NVA and VC in metal as well as a very swish resin firebase and resin huts, This project will cover mainly my 28mm collection and maybe dip into my 15mm and 20mm collections at some point. I plan to collect and paint as many of the Gringo 40s range of figures that i can for both the Vietnamese and Free world forces. Im going to use the painting guide from the flames of war tour of duty book as much as possible as i am colour blind and brown and green can be awkward to work out. This can lead two some interesting colour choices.

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Bam 💥 nam 68 arrived

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Woke up to the post man bringing me presents, to day it was the Nam 68 rules.

Luckily it was my day off so ran about doing all the boring stuff so I could delve into the book in the evening.

After a quick flick through the rules I felt the need to get some toys on the table.

For learning the rules I’m going to use my 20mm brittania miniature collection using the US army vs the VC.

I went with 20 mm as I can use my 2 foot square box frame table halfing all the measurements, as I’m a bit limited on space at home.

I was also missing an opponent/umpire.

This game uses an umpire for the enemy force. I’m rubbish at playing both sides objectively as I find it quite boring and never feel like I have won or lost.

So I decided to work out a solo mechanic that slots into these rules nicely.

In nam 68 you draw moral tokens some of which have buffs to play on the opponants turn.

I was able to bake these into the players actions.

Eg low ammo was changed to if you are firing full auto or suppressing fire and roll a 1 do an ammo check (like in old school necromunda)

To recreate the chance of a return fire token when you fire at en anemy flip a card if its a joker they get to return fire as if they used the return fire token .

Traps are another card the umpire can use against you, so I just flip a card if doing a run action or moving into a building if its a joker a trap is found.

The umpire creates a pool of VC units using a card deck that they can choose the squads they will have on the table discarding the units not needed.

I just created the unit pool then placed the cards upside down keeping them all.

In this scenario the Vc would get 2 units and I created a pool of 4 options.

To make it more interesting the vc were set up on the table using a blank marker that when seen by the us would be revealed as a random card from the unit pool that way I would never know exactly what would be around the corner.

Last but not least to activate the enemy I would shuffle a card deck and flip a card if its black the unit would fall back to closest cover and suppress fire.

If in cover it will do an aimed shot if it can failing that stay where it is.

If the card is red it will move forwards to cover if it can firing suppressive fire if they have a target.

If they have no target they will run towards enemy.

If a joker is pulled a random civilian will become an insurgent if no civilians ignore.

The  markers used as possible contacts move towards enemy on a red number

Move towards objective on a black number

If its a character card of any colour they stay put.

If its a joker the counter is revealed and then act as normal.

The US player can spot a VC token causing the unit to reveal with a new basic spot action using the rules from the aimed shot for identifying target.

The main thing is these solo rules cover most basics if something comes up not covered just go with what’s coolest and will do most harm to you.

Next step was to roll up a mission.

 

The mission was local sweep.

The US need to in search an objective in a village containing civilians.

The rules of engagement have changed from a free fire zone to strict ROE no civilians can be targeted.

The us have a single squad split into 2 teams.

the point team lead by a corporal with 3 m16 and 1 m79.

And a support team led by a sergeant with 3 m16 and 1 m60.

The point team starts on the table with the rest of the squad arriving on turn 3

The vc created a force pool of

1 x booby trap

1 x 3 man rifle team

1 x 3 man main force vc 1 x sniper

1 x 3 man smg team.

These cards were placed face down and as one vc unit can be placed at the stary in this mission one point of contact marker was set up in the vc starting zone out of sight from the us.

The second point of contact would arrive at the beginning of a vc turn if a red face card is flipped.

Last thing before the scenario starts I had to work out each forces moral.

This is used to see if your force stays and fights or flees.

The vc had a combined moral of 26 to the US moral of 16.

The point team advance up the road through the village as they are weary of booby traps in the Bushes of the beaten track. The objective is insight but they are aware of movement to the north west could it be a farmer going about his business or are the local forces leading them into a trap?The point team advance up the road through the village as they are weary of booby traps in the Bushes of the beaten track. The objective is insight but they are aware of movement to the north west could it be a farmer going about his business or are the local forces leading them into a trap?
The point team push forward, one member of the squad moves towards a villager advising him to move out of the area then takes cover against the hard walls of the building. The rest of the squad move onwards checking for movement ahead of them as they go. Before they reach the cover of some trees and bushes they start to take fire from 3 VC with rifles, a firefight ensues. The m79 fires with its signature bloop the shot falls short sending up a spray of earth and bits of tree. The m16 equipped troops manage to pin one of the vc giving them time to move up into the trees. The two unpinhed vc get moving one takes cover by a house covering the objective and keeping a civilian close by making the m79 useless the other vc advances to the side of the building hoping to outflank the US soldiersThe point team push forward, one member of the squad moves towards a villager advising him to move out of the area then takes cover against the hard walls of the building. The rest of the squad move onwards checking for movement ahead of them as they go. Before they reach the cover of some trees and bushes they start to take fire from 3 VC with rifles, a firefight ensues. The m79 fires with its signature bloop the shot falls short sending up a spray of earth and bits of tree. The m16 equipped troops manage to pin one of the vc giving them time to move up into the trees. The two unpinhed vc get moving one takes cover by a house covering the objective and keeping a civilian close by making the m79 useless the other vc advances to the side of the building hoping to outflank the US soldiers
As the fire fight carrys on the rest of the squad arrive hurrying into positions using the building as cover hoping to be in time to help the pinned down point teamAs the fire fight carrys on the rest of the squad arrive hurrying into positions using the building as cover hoping to be in time to help the pinned down point team
The m60 gunner lays down suppressing fire pinning the enemy one lucky shot almost goes through but just causes a scratch on the lucky VC fighter.The m60 gunner lays down suppressing fire pinning the enemy one lucky shot almost goes through but just causes a scratch on the lucky VC fighter.
The sergeant and a private push up around the building trying to outflank the now dug in vc, on the other side of the village the corporal and another grunt have pushed into some trees when they see movement (the second enemy contact arrived) using the trees as cover they try to see what the movement is (one of the vc force pool is flipped over its the booby trap) they see rustling in the bushes ahead it turns out to be just some wildlife scared by all the gunfire, unfortunately the corporal was paying to much attention on the movement and not his surroundings the last thing he feels is a trip wire on his leg, he takes the full force of a grenade explosion and becomes the first KIA the grunt behind him takes frag damage but luckily his flack jacket saves him. Unfortunately the shock of the death and explosion pushes the force moral almost to breaking. They have to suppress the enemy and get to the objective The sergeant and a private push up around the building trying to outflank the now dug in vc, on the other side of the village the corporal and another grunt have pushed into some trees when they see movement (the second enemy contact arrived) using the trees as cover they try to see what the movement is (one of the vc force pool is flipped over its the booby trap) they see rustling in the bushes ahead it turns out to be just some wildlife scared by all the gunfire, unfortunately the corporal was paying to much attention on the movement and not his surroundings the last thing he feels is a trip wire on his leg, he takes the full force of a grenade explosion and becomes the first KIA the grunt behind him takes frag damage but luckily his flack jacket saves him. Unfortunately the shock of the death and explosion pushes the force moral almost to breaking. They have to suppress the enemy and get to the objective
His ears still ringing from the grenade the grunt starts taking suppressing fire which gets through with a lucky shot taking him out of action with a serious wound. The sergeant knows he has to do something or risk losing the battle and the body of his dead comrad so he advances around the corner placing suppressing fire on the vc in the bushes, followed by another member of his squad tossing a frag into the bushes taking out the enemy fighter, pushing them over there moral limit the remaining vc fighter dissapears into the bushes and the village goes quiet, the US advance to the objective weary of traps and search the building finding a very well hidden weapons cache. The squad now have to secure an lz so the dead and wounded can be removed from the village and engineers can be landed too destroy the weapons cache reducing the VCs ability to fight in the local area.His ears still ringing from the grenade the grunt starts taking suppressing fire which gets through with a lucky shot taking him out of action with a serious wound. The sergeant knows he has to do something or risk losing the battle and the body of his dead comrad so he advances around the corner placing suppressing fire on the vc in the bushes, followed by another member of his squad tossing a frag into the bushes taking out the enemy fighter, pushing them over there moral limit the remaining vc fighter dissapears into the bushes and the village goes quiet, the US advance to the objective weary of traps and search the building finding a very well hidden weapons cache. The squad now have to secure an lz so the dead and wounded can be removed from the village and engineers can be landed too destroy the weapons cache reducing the VCs ability to fight in the local area.
Final thoughts. This is a great set of rules, I'm sure I got a lot wrong in my first playthrough but now I have a game under my belt I'm sure when I read the book now bits will make more sense. The rules can be brutal and punish you for example  if you send your men in the open with no covering fire they are in trouble. The pinning mechanic works very well and combined with the moral mechanic can really put pressure on what you do as you need to be careful not to take hits but still need to push on to the objective. I was also pleased with how my solo mechanic worked, the enemy moved sensibly on the table and caused some problems for me early on almost stopping my assault before it began. The booby trap was also nasty leaving me on the brink of routing it really was on a knife edge until the last secondFinal thoughts. This is a great set of rules, I'm sure I got a lot wrong in my first playthrough but now I have a game under my belt I'm sure when I read the book now bits will make more sense. The rules can be brutal and punish you for example if you send your men in the open with no covering fire they are in trouble. The pinning mechanic works very well and combined with the moral mechanic can really put pressure on what you do as you need to be careful not to take hits but still need to push on to the objective. I was also pleased with how my solo mechanic worked, the enemy moved sensibly on the table and caused some problems for me early on almost stopping my assault before it began. The booby trap was also nasty leaving me on the brink of routing it really was on a knife edge until the last second

I also think this will be an awesome multiplayer game with each player in charge of a squad.

Splashing on some paint

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Painted the interior with ak apc interior paint, it's an odd green colour looks very bright so gave it a wash of army painter strong tone to dull it down a bit. The exterior is the ak us olive drabPainted the interior with ak apc interior paint, it's an odd green colour looks very bright so gave it a wash of army painter strong tone to dull it down a bit. The exterior is the ak us olive drab
The tracks were painted with vallejo dark german grey, the whole vehicle then had a dry brush of bone to bring out the details once that was fully dry the whole vehicle had a watered down wash of army painter strong tone followed by ak ultra matt varnish. Not sure if the hatches would be interior green or exterior green when open as can only find black and white photos of that angle. Think the interior green breaks the dull olive green up so in cool with them as they are The tracks were painted with vallejo dark german grey, the whole vehicle then had a dry brush of bone to bring out the details once that was fully dry the whole vehicle had a watered down wash of army painter strong tone followed by ak ultra matt varnish. Not sure if the hatches would be interior green or exterior green when open as can only find black and white photos of that angle. Think the interior green breaks the dull olive green up so in cool with them as they are

Converting a couple of m113 for use by the arvn

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Got hold of a couple of rubicon m113 kits, these are crazy detailed with crew and full interior included. The kit comes with options to make us or anzac vehicles.

I kind of wanted to use them as support for my Arvn platoon.

from what I can work out from osprey books and the internet the South Vietnamese had a slightly different load out on their vehicles, they still used the 50cal on the turret with a front sheild which eventually became the m113acav with turret surrounds, rather than having m60s covering each side they would have 30cal with or without gunsheilds. I had to scavenge the 30cals from my bolt action bitz box of doom.

The Arvn used the m113 slightly differently than other forces, rather than using them as transports they preferred to use them in a light tank role with a larger crew to man all the weapons, as they found earlier in the conflict that the vehicles could advance quickly putting the enemy on the back foot only for the assault to slow down when the infantry disembarked getting bogged down and loosing momentum. Saying that there are plenty of pictures online of infantry sitting on top having lifts so I am more than happy to use them as infantry support and transports in games.

I also will have to change the heads of the crew using some gringo40s arvn heads I have left over from a previous conversion.

Building the hullBuilding the hull
Converting a couple of m113 for use by the arvn
Converting a couple of m113 for use by the arvn
Turret bits with modified weaponsTurret bits with modified weapons
Converting a couple of m113 for use by the arvn
Making some removable tank riders to show if passengers are on board Making some removable tank riders to show if passengers are on board

These are some reference images I found on line showing some different load outs on the vehicles.

20mm pavn from East front miniatures

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20mm pavn from East front miniatures

These models are from East front miniatures and are great quality and full of detail for the size and needed very little if any clean up.

I decided on multibasing as ot makes it quicker to move on the tabletop and can look quite imposing in game.

I have found with smaller miniatures that going for brighter colours than I would use for larger equivalent models makes them show up much better on the table top.

 

Tiny tiger stripes

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I have been working on and off with an idea fir a solo miniatures/bord game set in vietnam focusing on the indigenous troops with Us special forces advisors.

the game will put you in the position of controlling your unit with a limited amount of orders to complete a primary and secondary objective in the time allocated.

The game needs a marker to show where the player deploys from and recieves reserves from so i thought it would be cool to create a diorama based on the hq unit which is technically who the player of the game would be.

these models are a mix of brittania miniatures special forces and platoon miniatures arvn.

the tree was made out if a broken resin tree and some bits of twig glued and green stuffed on to make twisty roots

Entry point token Entry point token
The grunt playing pieces are multibased with two dudes to a base and the command units are on single basesThe grunt playing pieces are multibased with two dudes to a base and the command units are on single bases
Tiny tiger stripe cammo was a bit of a challenge but i am pleased with the results Tiny tiger stripe cammo was a bit of a challenge but i am pleased with the results
This is the full recconaisance team and a supporting squad from a mobile guerrilla force rifle platoon This is the full recconaisance team and a supporting squad from a mobile guerrilla force rifle platoon

Rubicon Pavn

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Bam ? Bam ?

Picked up the rubicon Pavn set at salute.

kind of wanted to check out the models for a while.

the plastic kit is great and full of options but the models are quite a bit smaller than some if my other models so do not mix well.you get 30 models in the set with options for heads and rigles as well as support weapons command and radio operator.

Managed to build and paint them in a day and a bit, painted them up fast and sloppy with base colours followed by army painter strong tone then a bit of a high light.

pretty pleased with the results and should look swish on the tabletop.

Converting up a mobile guerilla force platoon

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After reading a few books about the mike force platoons and the covert blackjack missions during the war i had the idea of converting a mike force platoon made up of indigenous troops with us special forces advisors.

the platoon will be made using gringo40s arvn with some head swaps and removal of the unit badges.

the us special forces advisors will be from the gringo40s sog range.

the first model i have been working on is a point man for a reconnaissance team made up of a point man two us advisors and three riflemen.

Point man for the recon unitPoint man for the recon unit
Had a go at tiger stripe cammoHad a go at tiger stripe cammo

This model is a gringo40s arvn model with a head swap, the head is from warlord games and is german head with the cap filed down to form a baseball cap

US Army officer

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This is the Lieutenant for my US Army platoon. Really enjoying using the Ak paints on these figures the paints cover Really well even when watered down and are full of pigmentThis is the Lieutenant for my US Army platoon. Really enjoying using the Ak paints on these figures the paints cover Really well even when watered down and are full of pigment

US Army RTO

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Bam ? this dude is the Radio man for the platoon. The mini is from gringo 40s  I like the way the pose shows how awkward it must have been humping the extra weight of tge radio in the high temperatures. The radio did come with a metal antenna but I swapped it for a bit of a brush as it's less likely to get squished by my oaf fingersBam ? this dude is the Radio man for the platoon. The mini is from gringo 40s I like the way the pose shows how awkward it must have been humping the extra weight of tge radio in the high temperatures. The radio did come with a metal antenna but I swapped it for a bit of a brush as it's less likely to get squished by my oaf fingers

Should have checked their six

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Squads first game on the table and they spend most of the game supressed by sniper fire from the rear.Squads first game on the table and they spend most of the game supressed by sniper fire from the rear.

The second part of the first squad

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5 soldiers armed with m16s they have a mixture of packs and equipment including one dude carrying a law strapped to his pack.

I’m still deciding what to do with the basing for this squad

M60 machine gunner and his loaderM60 machine gunner and his loader
Nco equipped with an m16 with a starlight scope fitted, this was an early form of night vision scope.Nco equipped with an m16 with a starlight scope fitted, this was an early form of night vision scope.

First half of US army rifle squad

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The point team for the first of two rifle squadsThe point team for the first of two rifle squads
Rifle man with m16Rifle man with m16
Infantryman with a Remington shotgunInfantryman with a Remington shotgun
Infantryman  with m16 with underslung m203 grenade launcher Infantryman with m16 with underslung m203 grenade launcher

Just finished painting some of the superb gringo40s US army sculpts.

The models a full of character as always with nice crisp defined details.

This unit is the first part of a rifle squad.

These men will form the point team which will be supported by 6 other dudes one carrying an m60 split off from the weapons platoon and another as his loader the rest will be rifle men.

I’m still trying to decide what to do with the bases I kind of want a red/brown  finish with some foliage, I have read about people using coffee grinds and tea leaves or mixed herbs but think i need to so some experiments.

Trying out some new paints first blood part 2

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Ooops got side tracked by my allegiance to the war master and shiny new heresy shenanigans.

I was not very happy with the pouches so I started them again this time mixing vallejo khaki with the Russian uniform as a base then highlighted with khaki and ak grey green flowed by ak grey green mixed with buff. I think this gives a better weather worn look.I was not very happy with the pouches so I started them again this time mixing vallejo khaki with the Russian uniform as a base then highlighted with khaki and ak grey green flowed by ak grey green mixed with buff. I think this gives a better weather worn look.
The next step was to paint the straps and helmet band with watered down ak dark green, these paints are full of pigment and water down nicely The next step was to paint the straps and helmet band with watered down ak dark green, these paints are full of pigment and water down nicely
Bam ?  time for a dapper cammo hat. I always struggle with cammo due to oaf hands and being colour blind. I think I have found a way to paint cammo that I am pleased with. The helmet should have a base green then a darker green and brown splodges, I find painting at this scale it can look a bit messy so I made it easier by choosing 2 greens in this case ak dark green and ak grey green and made three blobs of each on the helmet. Once that was dry I mixed the dark green with green grey and highlited the darker blobs then highlighted the grey green blobs and rim of the helmet with a mix of grey green and white. Once that dried I used the dark green to add some fine lines off the darker blobs till I was happy with the cammo effect. Sorry that was so long I even bored myself reading it backBam ? time for a dapper cammo hat. I always struggle with cammo due to oaf hands and being colour blind. I think I have found a way to paint cammo that I am pleased with. The helmet should have a base green then a darker green and brown splodges, I find painting at this scale it can look a bit messy so I made it easier by choosing 2 greens in this case ak dark green and ak grey green and made three blobs of each on the helmet. Once that was dry I mixed the dark green with green grey and highlited the darker blobs then highlighted the grey green blobs and rim of the helmet with a mix of grey green and white. Once that dried I used the dark green to add some fine lines off the darker blobs till I was happy with the cammo effect. Sorry that was so long I even bored myself reading it back
Adding some finishing touches, highlited the boots and m16 with a bit of light grey mixed with German grey, did some highlites on the face and hands with some wraithbone mixed with the flesh tone and added some agrax earthshade into the folds of the fabric and between the pouches on the webbing.Adding some finishing touches, highlited the boots and m16 with a bit of light grey mixed with German grey, did some highlites on the face and hands with some wraithbone mixed with the flesh tone and added some agrax earthshade into the folds of the fabric and between the pouches on the webbing.
Trying out some new paints first blood part 2

Trying out some new paints

Tutoring 11
Skill 11
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Thought I would try out the new vietnam us paint set from AK in the 3g acrylic range.

Generally I use vallejo paints but wanted a different look to my  us army rifle  platoon from the us marines.

Plus the ak paints I have used in the past have been great.

I base coated the rifleman with grey seer then blobbed on nuln oil so I can see the details then I drybrushed with grey seer and left it to dry before adding the base coloursI base coated the rifleman with grey seer then blobbed on nuln oil so I can see the details then I drybrushed with grey seer and left it to dry before adding the base colours
The uniform is painted with ak light green, I was going to use the ak field drab for the pack and straps but went with a mix of vallejo khaki and russion uniform I like doing this as you can adjust the mix for weatherworn/newer gear which is nice to break the units up a bit rather than being the same green. The skin was which ever flesh tone was closest to hand and the m16 and boots were painted with vallejo German grey leaving the canvas strips on the side ak light gree The uniform is painted with ak light green, I was going to use the ak field drab for the pack and straps but went with a mix of vallejo khaki and russion uniform I like doing this as you can adjust the mix for weatherworn/newer gear which is nice to break the units up a bit rather than being the same green. The skin was which ever flesh tone was closest to hand and the m16 and boots were painted with vallejo German grey leaving the canvas strips on the side ak light gree
Once the base layers were dry I washed the boots and m16 with nuln oil, the pack and pouches with diluted agrax earthshade and the uniform with nuln oil mixed with a small amount of dark green contrast paintOnce the base layers were dry I washed the boots and m16 with nuln oil, the pack and pouches with diluted agrax earthshade and the uniform with nuln oil mixed with a small amount of dark green contrast paint
Once the washes were dried I highlited the folds in the uniform with the ak light green and then mixed in larger amounts of ak grey green. The pack and pouches were highlited by a mix of vallejo russian uniform and buff once again adjusting the amount of highlites over the packs to simulate wear and tear.Once the washes were dried I highlited the folds in the uniform with the ak light green and then mixed in larger amounts of ak grey green. The pack and pouches were highlited by a mix of vallejo russian uniform and buff once again adjusting the amount of highlites over the packs to simulate wear and tear.

Bam ? completed fire base of doom all set for a game

Tutoring 8
Skill 9
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Bam ? completed fire base of doom all set for a game

Mud Time

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I painted the whole thing brown with cheap burnt umber acrylic I painted the whole thing brown with cheap burnt umber acrylic
Then added some bits and bobs like steps from match sticks and a few more sand bags.Then added some bits and bobs like steps from match sticks and a few more sand bags.
Mud Time

To paint the fire base I used a cheap burnt umber acrylic over everything.

The next step was to mix red into the base colour to make a clay like colour then splashed that everywhere.

Once that was fully dry I gave the whole model a Drybrush of zandri dust.

Then using Martian iron earth I painted blobs around the bases and to create paths down the hill connecting the bunkers.

Finally I gave everything a second Drybrush of zandri dust really focusing on the sand bags followed by a light brush of wraith bone.

The wood areas were then dabbed in with brown speed paint and the barrels were painted with vallejo russian uniform.

Once all that was dry I mixed contrast medium with a terracotta earth weathering powder and I worked that into the bunkers and around the sandbags removing any excess with a damp cotton bud.

Last but not least I drilled some little holes to poke the barbed wire into.

 

Building a firebase

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I thought it was about time that I started working on some more scenery.

Thought it would be cool to build the corner of a fire base for my 20mm US infantry platoon to defend.

Using up  some resin bunkers and dug outs I already had from Brittania miniatures, I started working out how I was going to place the separate areas.

The bunkers will hopefully look like they have been dug into a hill side with a protective burm with sandbags on top protecting the fire base.

The hilly part is built onto an 8″ by 8″ Cork mat with two 8″ by 4″ defensive berm sections and one corner section on a 4″ by 4″ tile.

My plan is to use up bits and bobs I have laying around, the hillside is airdry clay covered in kitchen towel and pva glue sprinkled with sand.

The sandbags are milliput and greenstuff and the defensive berms are the tops of some vacume moulded trench lines I had laying about.

To get the levels of the bunkers I balanced them on odds and ends that were the height I wanted then back filled with clay.

Getting the levels right Getting the levels right
Building a firebase
Clay and kitchen towel timeClay and kitchen towel time
Perimeter defences being sanded, bird grit is great for thisPerimeter defences being sanded, bird grit is great for this

Bill kilgore

Tutoring 7
Skill 9
Idea 9
3 Comments
I picked this dude up at the colours show a couple of years ago and has been sitting on the to paint pile for a while.I picked this dude up at the colours show a couple of years ago and has been sitting on the to paint pile for a while.

Bill kilgore

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I picked this dude up at the colours show a couple of years ago and has been sitting on the to paint pile for a while.I picked this dude up at the colours show a couple of years ago and has been sitting on the to paint pile for a while.

15 mm Viet Cong a mixture of Peter pig and battlefront

Tutoring 8
Skill 8
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