A Multitude of Horus Heresy Starter Boxes sent to YouTube creators

[limburger 22092xp 1]

@waywarddarkwolf don’t worry … there are plenty of industries out there that are willing and able to follow the GW sales model whenever they can.

Anyways … thinking outside of the box (ha 😛 ) is important when you want to maximize the most out of your given resources.
Your only problem occurs when you want to play in (official) tournaments or against closed-minded people who can’t accept that treating the rules as mere guidelines can make games more fun.

[Redscope 2731xp 1]

I think the Horus Heresy is a great boxset. It is amazing value for the contents you get. I have not played HH before but I am pretty excited about the release. I think like most people I have no plans to split the box. This is pretty close to 2,000 point army straight of the bat and for new players that is ideal. I am sure the plan is the box is  a bit of loss leader to hook people in HH and that is fine. A lot of people in the community see the value of this box and I think it will fly of the shelf and re-boot HH making more main stream aside AOS and 40k.

I have been watching Ben’s videos on his secret channel painting up models and having ideas what to do in HH. That reflects the community I have seen. I dont quite understand most of the negative comments posted here so I just wanted to stay that does not reflect the community I have seen. A lot of people are very excited to get this box and I just want to say to those people dont be put off by the doom and gloom merchants. Go check Bens channel out and join us in our ontoptop underground HH fans club !!!

[phaidknott 7250xp 2]

“Fortunately everything I need is included in the box – if it was a GW manufactured power washer I would have to buy the starter kit with only the base unit in the box – the hose would come in a separate kit, the lance in another, the fittings in another, and I would need to spend 25 quid on an instruction manual before I could even turn it on – and the instruction manual would be obsolete this time next year and I’d have to buy another one.”

 

….and when you put it that way, it really drives home just how crazy the GW “rollercoaster” actually is (or are we the crazy ones for throwing our money at it) 😀

[bubbles15 2308xp 2]

I take your point, but I don’t want historical minis, so there’s no value there at all.

While I respect the artistry and sheer genius ovre 3d printing, I haven’t the time or space for a 3d printer, nor the wish to faff about with resin, isopropanol and curing and they’re improving every year, so I’ll wait until they’re 5 times as fast at ten times the resolution.

It’s what you value. Yes, £200 is a lot of cash but it’s a hobby. A chum races cars, another does high end carpentry. The cost of the laser thing he bought to cut wood in 3 dimensions was eye watering.

Please, don’t bash others for spending their own money on things they enjoy. Value is in the eye of the beholder.

[waywarddarkwolf 1223xp 2]

@bubbles15

Absolutely – how you choose to spend your money is entirely up to you. Your business and no one else’s, and that’s how it should be.

But, with respect, I don’t see anyone bashing you or anyone else for wanting to spend it on HH. I merely see people, like myself, discussing the issue in a friendly and non threatening manner, discussing their own beliefs and opinions, which may be contrary to your own, but which are in no way meant to be derogatory,  nasty or in anyway an attack on others ?

[phaidknott 7250xp 2]

Yup, but harken back to the days when a “starter box” from GW cost about £100 (although that’s a few editions ago). The gripe I have with the current box is I have a young (school age) Nephew who “all he wants for his Birthday” is this HH box. Now his parents can’t afford it, and there’s no lower costing entry point for the HH game (atm).

 

It’s fine for us “adults” who may be able to afford such things, but if we remember back to our younger ages we were always able to afford “something” or our parents could buy us the rulebook perhaps as a gift. For the younger gamers it’s a rocky road as GW marketing does extremely well in raising their desire for the latest GW products.

 

But GW have already said that HH games are going to be “bigger” than your standard 40K games (probably the reason why they are selling the heavy and special weapons in boxes of 10 of each type (shame the Missile Launcher and Flamer aren’t in the same box 🙁 ). Perhaps the more rational way might be to use the beakies in your standard 40K games (I dunno).

 

But of late GW has been racking up the prices of these “starter boxes” from under £100 to £200 as standard it seems (as that’s what the market will bear). But in my mind £200 is where I start to take a step back and think “is it really worth it?” (to me). The minis are nice, but GW can’t write a set of rules to save their life (and we all know this). The beauty of the minis can’t overcome the shortcomings of the rules these days (I’ve spent a fortune on Necromunda and seen it go from a rulebook and five? Gang War books (for the full set) to a 17 rulebook opus where the rules as disjointed (and frankly a mess)). But what makes things a bit overwhelming for me is the idea that the HH box is great “value” because customers add up the costs of the product in separate boxes and then see “savings”. Frankly just take a look at what’s in the box (forget the “savings” idea) and think if 50 figures, a tank and a dreadnaught (plus the rules) is worth the £200. If it is to you, then fair do (you’ll enjoy the purchase). All I’m saying is just take a step back from the GW hype train (as the OP was pointing out), grab a cup of tea (and while you are drinking it, just take a look around at what £200 can get you in other miniatures games and “if” it’s a complete gaming/rules system),

[hobbyhub 4169xp 0]

@phaidknott  I’m not sure how much of a ‘starter box’ this thing is…. Even if GW themselves are marketing it as such.

It certainly isn’t the equivalent of either of the Recruit or Elite for 40K.  Nor probably Commander or the last launch box.

According to Ash Barker’s review, the contents are around 2000 points, which is quite playable, a standard game being 3000 pts.  half of the sprues in the box build the Spartan.

Unlike with the 40K starter sets, players don’t have to split a box with a friend if they don’t want both forces, or put it on fleabay, as any Space Marine Legion can use the enter contents, except the transfer sheet, along with any conversions to the two boss models.

And unlike any starter set they currently produce, it contains no terrain – one can’t even use the bottom of the box like the Recruit and Elite sets. Nor a playing surface.  I suppose the thought is that the player owns or can buy 40K terrain to use.

It also isn’t like the two previous plastic based Horus Heresy sets that GW brought out, which look a closer to their usual starter sets.

So all up, I think this is quite a departure for a GW big box, certainly in the last 5 years.

[limburger 22092xp 1]

I think the box is the way it is because it is merely aimed at getting the old fans into the new plastics, because at this point it may be cheaper for GW to make the stuff in plastic instead of resin …

Every HH enthusiast appears to be someone who already was into the lore and probably owns any of the previous releases.
Adding terrain of any kind would have raised the price tag even higher.

@phaidknott in the lore the spacemarines have squads with dozens of missile launchers … so to make the game fit the lore they’d have to sell it like this. The only positive thing is that you can pick which style of squad you want as you can pick a box of variant armour.

Having said that … I do hope they’ve streamlined the rules to the point that games of that size are playable, but then rules have never been GW’s best feature.

@bubbles15 has a point … the wargame hobby isn’t the most expensive one on the planet, but it isn’t the cheapest one either.
It only looks cheap, because once you’ve gotten into one rule set the entry level for the next one often appears to be ‘the rulebook’. However when you start from scratch you do need to add in the cost of a decent set of paints, brushes, glue etc. as well as whatever a full army costs within any given system. That 200 Euro mark is easy to hit for most wargame systems when you think of them from an actual newbie point of view …
I’d even argue that wargaming is deceptively cheap as the spending is often done in bits instead of one big lump of cash.

I don’t even need to look at ‘exotic’ hobbies to get to a 200 Euro minimum for cost of entry either.

The ‘next gen’ videogame consoles are 250+ Euro … and still a ton of people would line up to buy them, despite the fact that you’d need at least 50-100 Euro for a single game to play. And that’s assuming you’ve got a tv to use it on.

Fact is that if you want this (or any other) hobby to be cheap you’re going to have to work for it. As such it’s always time vs resources. Instant gratification only ever exists if you’re willing to spend above and beyond what is ‘normal’ for a hobby.

@hobbyhub if a ‘standard’ game is 3000 points … and this box is ‘only’ 2000 that is quite a big gap. It kind of makes me wonder what else you’re going to need in addition to this ‘starter’. A few squads of heavy weapons would be my guess … which suggests at least one box of space marines and one of the 4 special weapon boxes ?

[hobbyhub 4169xp 0]

@limburger  I would think it’s not as big a gap as some other ‘starters’.  If it was a full sized force, then the early games would be pretty boring, being my opponent’s force would be exactly like mine, except for the Legion special rules – if we had both only bought the box.

Out of the gate, there are going to be the two tanks, rhino and maybe the heavy and special weapon boxes, the contents of the box will come out separately.  Plus whatever ForgeWorld will be selling in resin.

Hopefully that will provide some variety in what one faces across the table..

I see this as providing a good base for a force, though I have no experience with the game and I’m only likely to purchase the kits to include in my 40K collection.

If players like the reaction mechanics, perhaps GW will include them in 40K 10th ed… But I would think that would be well underway in playtesting right now, if it is due out next northern summer.

[Redscope 2731xp 0]

@phaidknott This boxset is a complete army in a box it makes no sense to compare it to starting box we have seen previously. you are getting more than double what those boxes provide hence why it is a lot more expensive. I hate to point this out but it is an expensive hobby and it always had been. As a kid I could not afford the boxsets growing up, I used to have to save to get the models and the books.

We also live in the world in which I see kids with 500 pound PS5 and 800 – 1,000 pound iphones which are upgrade every year, games are 50-70 pounds to buy new. But some how the problem parents have is buying starter kits for warhammer ?

What I dont get is people who seem to have no interest in GW products feel the need to attack it. All the comments about price, 3D printing, rules ect etc. I can make the same point about any company that makes a game system. Yet it is only when GW release a product everyone feels the need to give it a good kicking. Are GW rule systems any worse than warlord games ? No so why dont we see a flood of comments every time warlord releases a game ? Why dont we see people saying dont buy warlord games just print off the minis.

Most of the people in the comments here have zero interest in GW products. Yet they always feel the need to make the same comments about it. Yet other games systems the posts on here largely get ignored. Why dont these people praise those systems if they think they are so good ?

I dont get why this site has to constantly be so negative towards GW products. Considering it accounts for the vast amount of sales and revenue the company makes it comes across as a very hostile place.

[phaidknott 7250xp 2]

@Redscope Beg to differ, but I DO have LOADS of the current edition of Necromunda. I’ve also got LOADS of Mordheim, Bloodbowl and used to have some big 40K armies back in the day (so I have been what most people would term a fanboi). But I have seen how GW has lead the market over the years and all the while the games have become more bloated (rulewise), and plastic minis even more expensive. The “buy in” for most of their mainstream games have become ever more expensive, yet look at the contents of these boxes and what does it cost to produce? Frankly Warlord have also become rather expensive as well (not as nice sculpts and I’ve never been a fan of Bolt Action). Yet look at what’s going in to produce the Power Washer mentioned before and you begin to see the profit margins involved. GW are a market leader and sells more minis than anyone, but where is the economy of scale?

 

£200 would probably get you a SAGA ruleset, a bag of Victrix Vikings and a bag of Anglo Saxons (120 figures for less than £80). Add terrain (and possible a mat) and you’ll not see much change from your £200. But the difference is that’s all you need, it’s “contained” and there’s going to be no ever constant FOMO releases and rulebooks added every time GW releases a new box of minis (as they did with the release of Necromunda Specialists, and the need to buy a £35 rulebook if you wanted to use them in the game). Make no mistake HH is going to be the same. And I’d argue the Victrix Vikings and Anglo Saxons (as well as the Normans) are just as good as a lot of GW’s releases. “Historicals” may not grab you in the same way, but at the end of the day it’s all about how much fun the game delivers. The SAGA example I’ve just used isn’t going to be a constant grind of keeping up with new releases and rules, instead you can read the rules and play. And a year later you can still play the same game (and perhaps spend more time refining your tactics on the table rather than working out that “Alpha Strike” army list). And trying to run a Necromunda game these days and delving into a dozen books means we spend more time reading rules at the table than pushing the minis around (which is the fun bit).

….and it’s a lucky kid that gets a £1000 phone (if I’d a had such a thing when I was a kid (although my folks wouldn’t DREAM of spending that much on a school age youngster) my dad would have stapled it to my hand so I couldn’t lose it and then made me wear a boxing glove inside a plastic bag sealed with duct tape so I couldn’t damage it 😀 )

[waywarddarkwolf 1223xp 2]

@Redscope

I have to disagree. As a 40K player sitting on the fence about getting into HH, I have found this civil discourse helpful.
And I really don’t see any GW bashing going on here.
I see a thread where people have said what they like and what they don’t like about the HH box set and why / why not they would / wouldn’t buy it.
And discussed possible alternatives. And I do see this on other threads on here as well, not just GW related ones.
I understand GW bashing is rife on the internet and its understandable that people are sensitive about it.
But we shouldn’t confuse open and friendly dialog where people may offer their own opinions and have a healthy debate about something, as being attacks or hatred.
Quite frankly, OTT has always been a safe space away from the hatred and bile we see on other sites.
As for GW rule systems being better / worse than Warlord ones…that would actually be an interesting debate…but possibly for another thread on another day 😉

[limburger 22092xp 2]

@Redscope GW is the 500 pound gorilla in the room. What they do will have an effect on the rest of our hobby.
So even if we aren’t interested in what they produce … we will feel the impact as they effectively set a base line reference.

Heck … I always point towards GW plastic kits as being the best this industry has for beginners. However one should be aware that they are a company … and they do what is good for them, instead of what is good for us (or the hobby).

People have not *that* much to complain about with the likes of Warlord because they don’t reach as big an audience as GW do. I’d suggest reading the comments on SPQR and a few of their more recent releases to see that not everyone is happy with their products.

The big difference is that everyone else still has that ‘indie developer’ vibe, whether or not they deserve it, which gives makes people a bit more likely to forgive the mistakes they do make.

I know that there are hobbies out there that are as expensive as the HH boxed set (I’ve said so in this thread).
However fact is that if you want to play HH games then you are going to have to buy GW products. At the bare minimum you’ll want the rulebook … which is not available outside of the boxed set and we don’t know when it will be. You can bet it won’t be cheap though (60-90 Euro?).

My very first contact with tabletop games was the Rogue Trader rulebook … before it was renamed 40k. I still like huge chunks of the setting, but I simply have grown to dislike how after the initial release of 8th edition they made the same mistakes over again by adding (IMHO) needlessly complexity to a system that was super easy to learn. As such I doubt we will ever get a reaction-based thing in 40k proper. Then again … AoS was kind of a test run for 8th edition 40k so I wouldn’t rule it out completely.

However given that we keep seeing the same pattern of bloat repeating again and again, when other companies have shown a focus on balance and minimizing of bloat that GW never had.  I had high hopes for 40k after 8th edition, but with HH switching back to the abandoned 7th edition they effectively killed any possibility of them ever fixing things.
If 7th really was as good and as balanced a product … we would have seen 7.5 instead of 8th edition … unless that is what 10th edition is going to be. I kind of doubt it as the way 7th is written you can not introduce new rules in codexes, which is something that 8th+ has allowed them to do.

I so love to buy into a proper force of beaky marines. My first plastic set must be somewhere in my pile of opportunity.
I just don’t like how much extra I need to buy before I can use them either in 30k or in 40k/GrimDark proper. It simply isn’t cost effective use to buy one or two boxes of beakies and 3-4 special weapon boxes and then having far too many spare parts …
30k itself just doesn’t feel like an interesting game if all we’re getting is one boring spacemarine army vs another identical boring spacemarine army. I need variety. I need my Orkses, Eldar, Squats and Imperial Guard too.

[phaidknott 7250xp 1]

Well it’s rather telling how Victrix and the Perry twins can release plastics for under £1 a fig (and you can bet they pay more per sprue as they will not have the massive production run that GW has (which is what I meant by “economy of scale”), and GW’s efforts run between £4 and £30 per 28mm figure. They aren’t four times (or thirty times) better, although I do agree they are the best plastics out there (just ridiculously priced).

 

Put it this way if GW said that the rules in the HH box is going to be a self contained ruleset, that they have added not only the rules for the minis you get in the box, but also any “foreseeable” future releases for HH as well (they are indeed thick tomes, but I wonder how many pages are actually rules) then I’d be all over this box set in a raving manner trying to relive my days of youth and the RB01 box of Beakies and Rogue Trader. But I just don’t see GW doing that, instead it’s going to be special rules on cards (they’ve worked out they can sell those as well), releases AFTER the HH box (possibly individual chapters, leading to HH Space Marine Codexes). The same stuff that’s in the main codex in the HH box but with added rules for any boxes they release later, plus a bit more fluff to try and make you feel better that you’ve bought a big book for about 12 pages of rules. And on and on the GW rollercoaster goes (as they’ve found this form of releases to the fans just will scoop up the money).

 

I just wish GW could go back to doing the great figures (which is what they do best), but cease and desist with their version of  “Living Rulebooks” (where you have to buy a £30 rulebook every couple of months as they change things up). If they went back to doing the rules as they did in the 90s, with just a rulebook and then a “brief” army book for the Xenos races (where it was one book per army, for example ALL chapters of Space Marines had the same units and rules), and ACTUALLY playtested them perhaps before releasing them (to curb out that nasty habit they have of adding powercreep to the latest book/army to garner the avarice of the frothing tourney crowd). But alas I just see GW carrying on as they have done with 40K, but this time reselling the game to you under a HH banner 🙁

You know like most of the other gaming systems/rules do.

[Redscope 2731xp 0]

@phaidknott

Honestly it is like a bunch of old women moaning about how good the old days where. Which I might add you view with rose tinted glasses. The only aspect that changed in the hobby is you got old and grumpy. You want to know the reality as mind blow and amazing as the original rogue trade 40k book was it was next to impossible to play. It was not a great system. As for codex they came out in 2nd edition in the mid 1990’s so I have no idea what reality you think we had single book systems in. You are living in this past which you made up and trying to hold GW to some mytical point in your childhood which never existed.

We live in a world where games have tons of DLC content, where we do get updates, refreshes, new content, new models all the time. The worlds that are created are living breathing events which move forward. We are no longer stuck with static broken rules which dont changes until the new rule set gets released in 5 years time.

The most amazing aspect is you are moaning about HH a game which is based on the 7th Edition which has not changed. If you what a static game you should be jumping all over this game because it is going to feature the same 18 legions all figthing each other over and over again. This if you think about is you dream game stuck in the past with new exciting plastic models.

Honestly I feel such despair that the generation that I knew had such excitement at the new models and sets coming out now seem to do nothing but spread negativity and try and suck the fun out of it for everyone else. What a damn generation we end up being where we just moaning stuck in the past rather than retain the wide eyed excitement of new products.

 

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