BBC Ask Why Grown Men are Playing with Toy Soldiers
March 13, 2012 by dracs
Samira Ahmed has written a really comprehensive article for the BBC on just what it is that makes grown men pick up the paint brush and engage in mighty imaginary space battles.
The article covers the length and breadth of our beloved hobby, from closet gamers to Games Workshop's high prices.
The appeal is in collecting, assembling and painting the models, for play, which are manufactured in Nottingham (and Memphis, Tennessee) and sold through the Games Workshops chain and by mail order. Blood, torn flesh, grimacing skulls and very large guns and tanks feature prominently in the detailed artwork.
Despite the competition from online or console-based gaming, Warhammer continues to thrive, with successful spin-off novels set in the 40K universe. How many other British companies, for example, could report a 40% rise in their latest half-year pre-tax profits?
"It's like why theatre remains popular in the age of cinema," says 32-year-old Andrew Ruddick from Cambridge, explaining its enduring appeal. He describes himself as a "relapsed" Warhammer gamer, slipping back into it in his 20s with friends. "There's an intimacy. With tabletop gaming you are there."
I'm sure this story of a relapsed gamer is familiar to all. I myself drifted out of gaming for a while until I stumbled into the BoW office while looking for somewhere warm to sit.
However, the article reveals that its not just the older generation who are still in love with this 25 year old game. New players are being introduced all the time, with the article including quotes from across the ages, including one thirteen year old girl who wears pink as a form of psychological warfare against all those male gamers. Beware the pink!
The article goes on to say how this influx of new players has led to many claiming Games Workshop are now exploiting their monopoly (so what else is new?), with one long time player describing the prices as "eye watering."
All in all this a really good article which could provide a good explanation to non-gamers just why we love our hobby. But could this article be a sign that gaming is moving more into the mainstream?
The popularity of wargaming cannot be denied, but is mainstream attention a good thing for the game?
Give the article a read guys and be sure to let us know your thoughts.
Why do you think adults are still getting into Warhammer?
Supported by (Turn Off)
Supported by (Turn Off)
Supported by (Turn Off)
Did you fail to notice this paragraph though?
> Games Workshop’s executives say they don’t do media interviews, preferring to focus on their hobbyists. But chief executive officer Mark Wells emails me about the claim of price exploitation. “That would go against everything we stand for. It’s just not in our nature,” he writes.
HA !
Double HA!
nope, i saw it too, and laughed so hard a bit of wee wee came out.
The funniest thing is i think he’s serious
So. Many. Mocking. Words. Can’t. Choose.
What is there to notice?
There is a different between giving an interview and sending an email with regards to a claim of price exploitation.
“The popularity of wargaming cannot be denied, but is mainstream attention a good thing for the game?”
Ill go with a “No” as this always seems to attract people that simply arent THAT much into wargaming. They tend to be less involved into the background , and mostly they are not interested in the background whatsoever. Or they turn Everything into a huge fucking joke ( like a pink painted gay Imperial army in Warhammer Fantasy with a “dark-room” steam tank, I simply dont like to play aginst such people as they ruin the overall feeling for me as its very important for me to really dive into a game and its background whilst playing.
not TOTALLY serious but somehow thats how I feel ….the part with the hipster I mean ^^
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kp_OipK3CFo
What’s wrong with super bright pink chaos space marines? It’s not like they did anything to offend you…. OK they are rather offensive but I really thought they where cool. I did a fluorescent army back in the day (face palm)
nothing wrong in general with any of it all 😀 not like I have something against gay people or people painting their armies pink ^^ BUT If you decide to play a game that has a rather grim background and thats why you like that particular game you are kind of repelled but such things ^^
I mean if it were part of the background that gay ( I have to emphasize this so much because my opponent specifically pointed out that his whole army is gay and had little flowers sticking out of every musket and cannon + said “dark room” steam tank) Imperial Armies are a normal thing to encounter ( with said visuals ) I wouldnt mention it at all !
But its not. Its simply not a part of that world or background ( for what I like the game for). And thats what I dont like, when people turn EVERYTHING into a joke, its funny for a moment maybe ( though I really dont get such humor ^^) but in the end it just ruins the game feeling for me. 😛
Then I guess that me using pokemon for my tide of spawn might have pissed some guys off.
I know what you mean by the fools that make the game all a joke and choose to mock other players or a minority. Is rare that I come across the type of player you mentioned, but I recall back in the day a boy that did his Nurgle marines buy dipping them all into bright green silicone. They where just blobs, you might see a weapon or two. That pissed me off as I had know idea what I was attacking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhyRpvgm03g
Why do we play with miniatures?
DUH because it’s fun!!
😀
I think the mainstream attention is good for the game, in-so-much as that it might attract people into wargaming who might have only been interested in the peripherally related games and books, or those who might have only popped into a GW store (then quickly popped out again after being ambushed by the GW Sales Hobbits lol).
The article is a sign that more people are becoming aware of GW’s ”Hobby”, but the hobby as a whole isn’t something that can become mainstream because it requires effort to at least stick together and base the models, let alone spend time removing mould lines, flash (extra flash for Finecast-and it’s repairing) and the extra washing of resin pieces and dealing with warpage from ForgeWorlds/Finecast kits, not to mention the price of the minis and books themselves.
Video gaming became more mainstream because it requires none of the above effort. A one-off payment of a few hundred quid for a console (that usually comes with a game or two) and you’re set. A few more hundred quid for a decent spec PC/laptop and a game and again you’re set (until your machine is no longer able to play current games unless you spend cash to upgrade your machine).
But once that payment is made, you can play your games immediately; the terrain, the avatars, even the rules are all set out for you to use and learn as you play. And you don’t have to make or build anything, or use your imagination to create new scenarios or do anything that you would do if you played the tabletop equivalent.
There is some customisation in related games like WoW or even Space Marine that you can spend time on, and for those that are able on PC’s, you can mod the games to your liking, which does require time and effort-but that’s hardly something that is in the mainstream either.
It’s just not the same as learning to craft your own models and paint them by hand. You learn nothing from customising an avatar, but with physical models you learn to be more dexterous, your painting skill improves and you’re using your brain more.
(Grab a cuppa or a coffee, this is becoming a looong reply lol. :P)
I think that making the mainstream public aware of the wargaming hobby, including all types of wargames, not just GW’s, is a good thing but it will only attract those who are not put off from the effort it or money it (can) require to put into it.
Some people might hear about the likes of Worthy Painting, Buy Painted.com or Blue Table Painting’s army building and painting services and pay them to do it, so perhaps that’s one way the mainstream can get into the hobby on the gaming side, as opposed to the model making side of things.
Then people can get their one-off-payment of models, even a whole starter set, painted for them and be ready to play (though they would have to make their terrain, unless the painting services can do that for you too), and in that way it can become a bit more mainstream, or “easier” to get into.
Wargaming also requires space. Space for the collections of minis and space to play the games on. When I started with 40K I didn’t (still don’t have) have a table that meets the 6’x4′ recommendation for a proper game, mine being an annoying 5’x3′. I made my terrain out of polystyrene packing that my dad brought home from work and used my Space Crusade and RTB01 marines, plus a few 2nd Ed marines and orks to play games with, plus the odd lead mini to game with (of course you can now get board sections or make your own-but it still needs space to store them). And then came high school exams, college, uni and work and that was that for about 10 or 12 years!
So having the space to play the games can be a challenge in itself. Right now, I’m just making models that interest me and am looking for a place to play a game once I have an army, which is a long way off!
Like the bloke in the article, I’ve recently got back into the hobby. Bit by bit, I started getting more minis. But in order to afford the minis and books, I had to use some nous. Ebay and bits stores like Letthedicedecide.com and BitsandKits.com became havens for finding what I needed at a decent and realistic price. Online discount stores like Wayland Games helped me (or my family at Christmas, birthdays etc) get the models I wasn’t prepared to pay GW prices for.
It’s a major detractor to the GW range of minis. Unless you’re aware of these online shops, or have the foresight to go online to search for cheaper prices, then you’re forever buying from GW at their prices. Something that puts the mainstream off.
Then there’s the types of people who would be interested in wargaming in the first place. The whole wargaming hobby appeals to those who are into history, mythology, combat, art, miniature painting, sci-fi, & fantasy, modern warfare, model making, rock and metal (mostly; gotta love the METAL) and rolling dice. I could just say GEEK! But, there are varying degrees of geeks lol.
Unless the approach to wargaming can change and attract people who like to play games of any type, then the mainstream who aren’t into some of the above and who can’t see the appeal of using their brains and hands to make things, or to play games of strategy, then they won’t be attracted into the ‘Hobby’. At least, not at GW’s prices anyway.
The whole aspect of what people define wargaming to be has to be changed. The article only concerns itself with 40K and a bit of Warhammer Fantasy. Yet it doesn’t mention any of the other companies out there making games and minis. Probably because none of them have dedicated hobby stores to their games in the high street . Perhaps because they are (white) dwarfed (lol-lame again) by the popularity of GW’s global company, they aren’t able to afford to open up their own shops. If they did however, then wargaming could go mainstream.
Something that could help this is if companies like Mantic Games, who showcase and sell minis from other companies, banded together to create brand-name stores. Perhaps if franchises were made with independent stockists with a dedicated hobby and gaming area, that might help bring more people into wargaming. I think in general people like to see models, even if they have no interest in what they are; these diminutive creations are intriguing. So having shops with them on display would help. Discount prices and sales would help people to stick with their hobby once they get into it. But these companies would need to create the popularity and generate the money GW has in order to open up their own stores – which is why they mostly stick to existing online and selling through independent stockists.
For now, GW has no opposition in the hobby store arena. They are the “Warmasters”, as it were. If they had an equal opposition, an Emperor to defeat them; a champion to rail against them and show them how the wargaming hobby can be for everyone, not just their own brand, then wargaming could become more mainstream.
And if the GW hobby does go into the mainstream and more people buy into it, then we can only hope the best thing to come out from it is that GW will sell it’s products at affordable prices and it’ll be easier to find people to play a game with.
I just hope it doesn’t dilute the hobby and make every games company become the money hungry behemoth that GW has turned into.
The end! Thanks for reading if you got this far and apologies for the rambling bits lol 🙂
First thought that struck me when reading the article, and after I had finally stopped laughing at the Wellsism, was there is not enough being discussed about the alternative games. I know it is the 25th anniversary and all that, but even so, It just endorses the fallacy that GW IS the Hobby to the mainstream.
Off topic but… while Gawker Media and Techcrunch are basically calling commenting on the web trash and a waste of storage and bandwidth, I have to say commenting here on BoW has been a total pleasure.
Sure we get the odd long me too type comment threads on competitions, but by far the quality of commenting here on BoW is among the highest out there.
We always welcomed comments and see them as ‘the other 50%’ of the video/content, but to be honest found a lot of the commenting on youtube to be more noise less signal.
Hopefully we can continue to drive quality over quantity!
Thanks folks for taking the time to write your Short, Long, Funny, Serious, Interesting, Challenging, Correcting, Debating, amazing comments! 😉
Cheers! I have no idea who Gawker Media or Techcrunch are but I agree about the comments on here being good. They make me see things from other people’s point of view which is always good and I do learn from them too.
My friend, ther is an “Emperor” about to come forth. It’s called TABLE TOP NATION!!!!!! LONG LIVE THE NATION!!!!
Lol, yeah, I was kinda hinting at Tabletop Nation to be honest lol 😉
dang – you seem to be channeling my inner dialog. Weird. Or I just agree too much. Mainstream isn’t something to worry about. Like being normal or becoming more normal.
The money hungry behemoth? Lets not get silly here. GW could potentially save themselves alot of money by closing a chunk of stores and not have to pay any cost with regards to renting shops or paying the staff within.
You’ll have to forgive me in believing that some people just latch on to the GW hate wagon far too easily and have not actually had a think with regards to some of the costs GW incurs.
If the stores are haemorrhaging cash then maybe GW need to have a think about how they want to operate rather than simply whacking up the price of the goodies.
It’s called have a solid business plan old fruit.
Something, ““That would go against everything we stand for. It’s just not in our nature,” 😛
Or let those stores set their own prices to drive business. If a store isn’t doing so well, offer a 10, 15% discount. Heck, if my local did that I’d be over the moon.
Well I meant that in the way the prices are high, including for items you can get cheaper elsewhere, and how they bring out box sets that don’t have all the models you need to field a unit-like the Space Wolves Thunderwolves Cavalry where the codex says a unit of 1-5, but the box only has 3. When people are on a budget, like myself, they don’t want to buy 2 boxes just to get the right number of models you want to have.
I am aware that having stores, staff, factories to produce the minis, books, writers, artists, etc will incur costs. But I don’t feel that that their particular prices are fair at all. Why, for instance should a 96 page book cost £20?! Especially when they end up with mistakes that require FAQs to correct them. Why should a box of 5 marines cost nearly the same as 10? For example £20.50 for an assault squad of 5 men (just 5!) and £23 for a 10 man tactical squad. Why isn’t the assault squad half the price? Why doesn’t the assault squad have 10 men? The only answer is that GW wants you to buy double the boxes of assault guys when you want ten, which is why I called them money hungry (behemoth because they’re the biggest wargames company around).
They could do what they do at a cheaper price. Mantic strive to do this and give it’s customers value for money-at the very least they sell all the models you need in any given unit. I wouldn’t want to sell the miniatures or books that I designed at cheap-o prices, but if they tried to give us value for money; really made the box sets packed all the models or more, like, heaven forbid, 2 squads for £23, or a deal where you get a discount for each extra box of the same set you buy, then perhaps I won’t think of their prices as being way too sodding expensive for what are unpainted and unassembled miniatures.
Oh, btw that was my reply to fleety – had to come back to it after bit of an interruption (real life, why you always interrupt my thinking about miniatures?) lol.
GW want to make money and are “greedy”: GOOD. Greed is good. It’s RIGHT that they want to make money. Why should anyone do anything FOR YOU for free? Make your own miniatures, etc. If GW, or any company, weren’t in it for the money, we wouldn’t have their games. And it’s that simple. We simply wouldn’t have the stunning range that they sell.
However … what angers me about GW, and I think it angers others, is bad decisions they make which will damage both the brand and future profits in the long term – and GW hiking the price every year in order to make up for their stupidity.
That, and their disgusting behavior towards getting children (who are too young to play the game) hooked.
There’s a big difference between greed (which I think is exactly what causes the problems you outline above) and wanting to make a living doing things you care about. If GW were in it for the money in the ’80s, they wouldn’t have been making metal space-knights and aliens and fantastically elaborate semi-RPG rules sets, they’d have been rolling around with giant cellphones and red braces like all the other yuppies who thought greed was good (and eventually screwed the whole Western economy). And if no-one did anything for free we wouldn’t have this website to discuss it on, and that would suck : )
You think yuppies and greed caused the economy to be screwed? Heh.
In the same way you think “greed” caused the economy to be screwed, you are wrong in the same manner “greed” caused GW to falter; this might not be intuitive to us. If GW didn’t work hard to make a maximized profit you wouldn’t have the vast range of models (or the technology developed / used to make them). And if GW didn’t make a profit that one could note, there would be less shareholders – and less product.
Same with PP. You don’t think PP are greedy? You don’t think Mantic are greedy? Please. There’s a difference between being greedy and being an a**hole. The guys at PP and Mantic would not do what they did if they believed they would not receive sufficient reward for their efforts. The difference is they also care about what they do – and they understand that caring about the product will bring them future rewards.
The difference is GW have been stupid. They’ve made decisions which will damage their future profits and sustainability. The could have still been greedy and not done any of the crap they’ve pulled – and they probably would have got more money. Their greed, coupled with intelligence, would have served all of us. After all, GW’s hunger for profits has resulted in their product being sold worldwide and stretched across different mediums.
You can be greedy and not be an ass. You can be greedy and not make stupid choices.
It’s great to not be greedy, but that’s not going to pay for the education of your kid. I love to bemoan GW for their high prices, but by the same token I say to “you”: Are “you” not greedy yourself for wanting GW to sell you their products for less? (a general question to all, rather than yourself). But it is funny how it’s always the other guy who’s greedy. We see all of GW’s latest goodies and we want, want, want them. Then we see their prices and say “no thanks.” Both GW and “us” are being greedy – the point being, if GW lowered some of their prices then we would actually buy their stuff – and more of it – and more people would come in to it. Their profits would increase, and we would get models for less: both parties greed would be satisfied.
At the end of the day, no one is stopping you from making your own systems, your own rules, your own fluff, and finding suitable models for them. I’m drafting my own fantasy ruleset designed to use all Warhammer models because I’ll be damned if I play a game when a charging knight with a lance DOESN’T get to strike first but still gets his charge bonus. Not on my watch.
I wish more people would open up their minds and get down and dirty, and make their own games and rulesets. There ARE some out there. No Quarter and what not. The MOMENT people move away from using GW’s rulesets and start using models from all across Middle Earth, will be the moment GW’s mentality is forced to shift: because Warhammer and 40K are merely conduits they use to sell their models (their primary purpose). Cut out the conduit and GW will be forced to step up to the plate.
And herein lies our argument: I think that greed (“intense or excessive desire, especially for food or wealth”) leads directly to people being a**holes and making bad choices as stated above. We’re circling around a problem of definition.
I don’t think most companies are behaving in this manner, much less those producing a niche product like ours (little metal dudes are no-one’s idea of a get-rich-quick scheme), but I do think it has informed some of GW’s more short-sighted decisions like those mentioned above.
I know the state of the economy is waaaaaaay off topic but I have to ask, what do you think scuppered Enron, Northern Rock, RBS and the like?
@daverichilieu
“…those producing a niche product like ours (little metal dudes are no-one’s idea of a get-rich-quick scheme),”
Therein lies the nub of the issue perhaps. The GW board seem to think it is.
And it has to be said that having creamed off some tasty earnings they are in fact doing a good job of it.
At least for themselves.
I think you’ve confused greed with what Ayn Rand called “Rational Self-Interest.” It’s normal and rational to want to make a product people will want and sell it with an eye towards profit. Greed, however, leads to foolish, short-sighted decisions that will ultimately harm the company… which is what you discussed in your post, yes, but you don’t seem to consider it greed, even though that’s exactly what it is. GW may be doing well for now, but they have more competition than they may be willing to admit and the more they tick off their fanbase the more it will abandon them.
And I wouldn’t blame yuppies for the current state of the economy, either. I’d blame governments all over the world, including in the States, for trying to micromanage it and doing such a horrible job of it–but I suppose that’s a different discussion.
Never hurts to have abit of mainstreem coverage of our ‘hobby’ Though some poeple would rarther teenagers go out boozing and getting stoned than having fun playing a harmless tabletop wargame.
Sad really. Ive been playing tabletop games for 20 years, and well I’m expecting to play for another 20 years too! As for the people GW bashing…please its getting very tedious now.
It is getting tedious so I’ll stop GW bashing, apologies for that – it just makes me stressed out to think about their prices whenever I see their new releases-their prices are not logical, captain! Except to give them more cash. I love the models and the worlds they created for them; they are fantastic (and I’ve got the first 3 Horus Heresy books recently to read through, after reading A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns, which are brilliant books). If it weren’t for their prices, we’d all be happy. I’d be happy anyway. S’why I wait till birthday’s or Christmas to ask others for the expensive stuff, lol! 😉
But as I said in my long scroll of a reply; if other companies can get together, or if separate companies can become as big as GW, then we might have more shops run by them in the high street, and so more choice as to what you will get into first (a Privateer Press hobby shop would be cool), instead of only seeing GW stores; then it will attract more of the mainstream into the hobby. People can go in to them and look around for themselves and get into a new game. The only problem is money: what the customers can afford and what the games companies can afford to spend on opening and running stores. Or if they can, as I suggested, band together and help independent stockists to become full on retailers of wargames stuff, selling their wares, with perhaps staff members working on behalf of the companies that can run games/hobby stuff in the store, while the stockists themselves can just run the store-or have that knows about the games already. I dunno, whatever’s cheapest and works well, lol! 😀
There is bashing for the sake of it and there is fair criticism.
The article was a good one imho and I don’t feel pessimistic about it as Partisan does.
On the whole it was balanced and it certainly refrained from the point and laugh at nerds reportage that one would expect.
My criticism is that the article was titled, “Why Do Grown Men Play With Toy Soldiers?” iirc, not, “Why do grown men play WH40k?”
I remember there being a Wargame Soc at school c1972 and collecting Airfix OO/HO Napoleonics and modern figures, getting rulebooks from the library and playing with toy soldiers. There is a tradition of toy soldiering long before GW came along.
The article implicitly associates GW with wargamming while marginalising the broader and older traditions of adult game play.
Sorry to those who cannot see this point. 😉
Very true. The reporter only seemed to be aware of wargaming because GW has a visible presence on the high street, and so they totally forget about all other types of wargames and companies out there. Which is why there needs to be some way of making other wargames visible to the majority; an alternative to GW only hobby centres that allows you to see and play all sorts of games that are available.
There are already independent games stores that run games, and some that have gaming tables open, but they are pretty few and far between-it’s certainly the case in my area.
But if there could be more places like this that had gaming/hobby areas where you can learn different painting techniques, different gaming systems etc, as well as buy different games, then that could get more people into this hobby.
….. or maybe… just maybe, it has something to do with it being GW’s 25th anniversary.
Look its not bashing to be not happy about mainstream…
Look at what happened to Metallica, Van Halen and Motley Crue to name a few.
Before mainstream hit these bands they were two fisted ass kicking rock bands. Now they are nothing more than candy ass crotch rockers who are a heart beat away from the dinner lounge circuit.
I rest my case, Mainstream sucks mule urine through a rusty screen door in the middle of July. It doesnt matter the game to the slobbering half witted fan boys 🙂
On the second two I accept your point, but I will shake my walking stick (wait I just *feel* that old) vigorously at any man who decries Death Magnetic. Metallica were just lulling us into a false sense of security!
The sub-heading to the article explicitly states that it is about 40K rather than an overview of a broader hobby. Besides, although I would love to see them talking about Infinity and more, this is going up on the BBC website, you have to break people in gently. They don’t know about overwatch yet, “It’s always your turn” could totally blow their minds.
A couple of other pressing factors are GW’s presence on the high street and the ‘hook’ for regular folk that they are a visibly successful British business in difficult economic times, which might legitimate the article for disinterested BBC editors…
@daverichelieu
Hold on bro. in defense of my some what glorious and strategic analogy
Last I heard Metallica was hosting boat cruises and dropping albums with gender benders like the velvet underground “Lou Reed”
How Metal is that ??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9LcJwX9dnE
Now what were you saying about GW trying to hook regular folks- LOL
Aw now, Lou Reed is a legend, the chances of a collaboration with him turning out to be arse were a million to one – Metallica just got really, really unlucky.
OK so lets get Elton John to do a song or two with slayer or Megadeth he is a bone smoker that some deem as legend as well.
However it would be a paradox to label that union as metal. Therefore the analogy is in tandem with the comparison that Mainstream some how equals a good thing in the end.
Which could not be further from the truth, and that evidence can be seen in its early stages concerning the vulgar display of ignorance openly displayed by GW as of recent.
I am a war gamer yes, but not a fan of stupidity and blind submission to a game of any kind to make up for the absense of a sex life.
There was overwatch in 2nd Edition and in Space Hulk 2nd Ed too ;P But of course, not now. But they did know about it. Silly to get rid of it, it’s a basic strategy of combat. “Sergeant, you and your men hold this position and shoot anything that comes into view”. Makes sense to have it 🙂
Not a terrible article, in that it didnt paint us all as sad people with no lifes as is usually the case, but the title of the piece kind of sets the tone, and it doesnt help the cause at all.
Whilst I agree with Chibi that it kind of portrays the hobby itself as ’40k’ and little more, I think that part is kind of forgivable given its primarily about the 25th anniversary thing .
Whats more surprising is Fantasy never got, to my recollection, any such treatment, and that game, until recently at least, was always seen as the more mature game of the two.
Overall I think any mainstream attention that isnt a full on mickey take is a good thing.
Compared to what they say about my other hobby (plastic model kits) I think it was a very complimentary piece.
I acknowledged the anniversary, but still feel the scope and tone could have been broadened a tad more. It is a good question to ask imho but ultimately the article did not address it. Maybe it is a good PhD thesis and the article didn’t have enough scope lol
I think you’re expecting a lot from the BBC, they’re hardly concerned with accuracy or representing reality.
It is a bad fact of life hobbywise that sadly Wargaming is GW. As much as I love this site it rubberstamps this perception of the hobby in a major way and is heavily biased toward GW in many respects. This is a result of the GW popularity however rather than intentional by BoW. Is the mainstream exposure a good thing? No. It fully concentrated on one producers product and confirmed the impression the masses have that this is all there is. Had the article attempted balance then maybe.
Oh and before the flaming begins about GW bias here. Watch any of Darrels vids where he unboxes any historical based troop set and watch the comments as to the GW troop type they can replace in the comments boxes…
Don’t follow your reasoning Cadders, and sorry if I have misunderstood.
I like BoW as a hobby site because it does cover all the other games. I rather think you are correct about the popularity of GW here. For example you only have to see the number of comments swell exponentially regarding GW features, in contrast to non GW which barely get into double figures.
That is not the fault of BoW but of us punters.
In fact I dislike BoW because they keep making me want to buy lots and lots of superb models that the non GW chaps are putting out there! Naughty BoW for the temptings! lol
I am not too sure I get your point but I’d just point out BoW give the people what they want and do what they personally love. As for historical figures, I always look at historical figures and think how they might fit in a Warhammer context. Why shouldn’t I? People are always looking for better priced miniatures for Warhammer.
Yeah, that title kind of belittles the whole wargaming thing, but the article itself was complimentary to it.
It’s all about having fun, like bloodhunter said 🙂
a bit concise, I’d like to see something with a bit more meat on it. Who knows some TV producer may have seen it and may care to expand on the theme.
It didn’t show wargamming in a bad light, there were some nice clear shots of models and hopefully into sparked some interest in somone.
“There’s no such thing as bad publicity”
If something like this provides new opponents and therefore boosting sales of wargames manufacturers, who will then go on to making more shiney things for us. I can handle some of that.
To be honest, I think the more main stream attention war gaming gets the better it will be. The reason I say this is for a few things:
1. For us older gamers, we can be more at ease as more people except it and you don’t have to feel like you have to justify your hobby as if your some 40 year old virgin in your mom’s basement.
2. Kids will be more open to invite friends over for a game and not be picked on. Pier pressure is probably the number 1 reason kids stay away from the stores.
3. If it became main stream even your wife might join you in the stores and enjoy themselves.
4. the guys that have peeked in might might be emboldened to take the leep into the fun world of gaming.
If console games can make it so can we 😀
valuable points you have there ^^
When my wife comes into our local GW with me I am always tempted to see if she could walk out with a Baneblade just by asking for it. I’m biased, but she’s roomin’ gorgeous.
The more mainstream can be viewed differently based on the mental picture I get of a two edged sword. Meaning I only see 2 paths that will open up from over exporsure…
First being the higher the demand the more relentless the hobby is towards your wallet. We have seen simular trends show through in other formats Like RPG’s and CCG’s. So that is no good.
Second is with a higher demand and price tag GW will get even more greedy and put even less thought in the game itself. And more focus on production and how quick they can turn the cash cow.
Both paths are self destructive and some could argue a strong case that, this is what we are seeing now with Games Workshop.
As far as why do adults partake into the hobby ??
Well its to bloody exspensive for children to play and do, for the most part. Its far cheaper to throw an Xbox 360 at your kids than a army of your choice or game system.
I don’t really see how a kid having an X-box works out cheaper than getting into wargaming. they eat through games in no time and they always want the latest titles. If your prepared to spend £40 a month on a new video game why not spend it on toy soldiers? As far as £ = enjoyment theres definitely more to be gained from miniatures.
According to google the number 1 hobby in the UK is fishing, not sure how accurate that is but its definitely very popular. The cost of setting up a fishing rig is anything from £500 – £2000 – pretty expensive, on top of that theres the regular cost of bait and hooks on top. I know its a different kettle of fish so to speak but its just as fiddly and annoying learning how to do things right :p
With the amount of throw away crap thats targeted at kids nowadays I actually think spending £400/500 on a box of 40k and a 2000pt army to go with it would be a sound investment.
The reason the x box is the easier option is because it requires no time or effort, just plug it in and button bash away. To really get the most out of wargaming as a hobby you need some one who knows what they’re doing to guide you, thats where workshops greatest strength is, having the facilities to model, paint and game in store is their biggest draw.
Now the LGS can do this as well if they want to and push the smaller independent games companies but it obviously takes time and effort to nurture a gaming community and it does all depend on the individual store owners wanting to. I’ve seen these magical indy stores on t’internet packed full of gamers playing on lavish terrain but I’ve never actually been in one yet, my own experiences in shops other than GW have been pretty disappointing actually and I’ve found the attitude to be very much ‘give us your money and piss off’.
Hopefully sooner or later someone with the funds to do it will set up a chain of stores that takes all the good things about games workshop and combines them with the freedom to play any and all of the brilliant indy games out there. Then every body can have a LGS like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go5WlI2tXr4 and we’ll all be very happy gamers.
my 20p worth
cut off a weird chunk off my post…
what i was saying was…
we need more game stores to be like this – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go5WlI2tXr4
Independent game stores need to make more of an effort, a franchise to rival games workshop that stocked all the other great games would be great for the hobby. Hopefully one day it will happen
I agree.
The world needs more independent stores and “hobby centres” like MWG, somewhere you can go and play a game without getting a constant sales pitch from the staff, or bogged down with 100s of kids who don’t take the hobby even semi-seriously.
I mean, a place where you can show your army list to the people working there, asking for advice, and they won’t instantly suggest you need the most expensive unit available for your army, and that they have them in stock. >_<
I don’t know man to take just the example given and ignore the meat of the comment, then run like a scalded dog. Thats a hard act to follow-but ok
xbox is much cheaper especially with the used game market. My son can turn games over at 5 and ten bucks a pop. For 10 dollars I cant even sniff the box that has the bold letters “FINE CAST” on it.
Well for me it’s cheaper. I part-exchanged a bunch of old games and dvds to get a 40GB PS3 and got a game with it a coupla years ago. I get games either from online or Computer Exchange; a second hand games shop in the UK.
As you pointed out, where kids are concerned (the types who have parents that can afford to throw £40 away per month-mine certainly couldn’t when I were a kid) you could spend that money on miniatures instead (again mine couldn’t). But what’s easier-playing a game or making something? And spending £400/500 40K is only a sound investment if the kid has the determination and persistence of mind to build and paint every single one of the minis they get, all the while ignoring the temptation to play a video game. As for me, I never painted all my miniatures from my 2nd Ed set. Not everyone’s the same, but kids attention spans are shorter, even the most dedicated kids to their hobbies, and they’ll be after the new thing after awhile, whether it’s games or new minis, which adds to the collection of unpainted minis they might already have.
@majordutch
Right on, and to each there own concerning what hobby one wants to embark upon…
Yes kids have zero attention spans and it would be a good thing to have them do war gaming rather than video games
Here’s why, in a video game setting everything is done for you meaning the visual is there, the audio is there ,the background is there, and the objective is obvious.
There is no sense of wonder or pathways for ones mind to travel using the game as a vehicle. Everything is right there in front of you just give the controller a jacking and it is done. instant gratification…
…”LOOK MAW NO MESS”
However with war gaming you have the story line to embrace you also have the tools within the war game itself to create something different and unique by way of army lists and also with the hobby and painting side. War gaming forces you to use your brain or intellect in order to recieve gratification.
To add the mainstream in any shape, way or fashion, is a move to dumb it down so the mildly retarded that is contained wthin the mainstream can consume it.
When that happens and it will, through greed and other ill aspects I my friends will have to find another hobby. How much you want to bet that alot of you will be doing the same.
A final note you guys keep saying 400-500 bucks to play this game 40k.
Your math is off I have three 40k armies and to play this game at a competitive level you are looking at more than that.
They couldda chosen a better pic of the ‘crons for the first image…
I mean, they’re pretty crapily painted, and not even stuck together right. They should be hunched over, not stood perfectly upright, that just makes it look like they’ve got something stuck up their arse.
They’ve built them wrong, and then just drybrushed them in boltgun metal, painted the gauss flayer black and stuck in the rod.
Lame.
Mine have bronze/gold “sternums” and “spines”, blue shoulder blade-plate things, I painted the eyes… etc.
Seriously, I painted my Warriors some 5 years ago, and they STILL look better than that…
Also, the article paints (Pun fully intended) 40k as something that is primerily for children that some adults just play occasionally. That’s bull. Yeah, there’s a LOT of kids, with armies that are falling apart (I’ve played kids at WHFB, where a wheel stuck to the base was a corpse cart. When I beat him he slammed the table and broke the wheel, so his already completely broken corpse cart model that was just a wheel stuck to a base became half a wheel stuck to a base. Was pretty funny.), and vast armies of parent-brought stuff that’s completely unpainetd, or painted with no love or care for the model (Was in an apocalypse game not long ago, where the £90 odd Heirodule model was sprayed white, then had green paint spatered over it… it looked like something had sneezed on it… such a waste.), or have no respect for the rules (For example, consolidating after a won combat straight into combat with another enemy unit, dispite his team mate, myself and my team mate showing him in the rules where it says that’s not legal.), but ultimately, when you take into account how you’re SUPPOSED to play it, when you take into account how dark and twisted the fluff of most of the armies is, it’s very clearly a game for adults.
Also, just to add, the green glow from the rods on the arms and hands of the Warriors was my first ever attempt as OSL painting. Looking at it now I realise I couldda done a lot better, but I’ve had a lot more practice. Still, it doesn’t look bad… at least, I don’t think so. :p
There would be both pros and cons to wargaming being more mainstream.
Pros:
1. With more of an audience there would be more competition and we would probably see prices drop and new interesting wargames come out.
2. The more the marrier and the less wargamers would be made fun of
Cons:
1. With more players we would be bound to get more players who don’t really try, never take the game seriously, are power gamers or are just generally annoying
2. WIth more popularity and more demand, the companies we know and love today may start to slowly slip and go down hill as the Call of Duty Franchise has, at least in my opinion
All in all I believe it would be good for wargames however there wold inevitably be some down sides.
http://www.britishpathe.com/video/peter-cushing
…”a game for boys from twelve to a hundred and fifty and for that more intelligent sort of girl *BAAM…add random 50s chauvinism right there* who likes boys games and books.”
😀
That was funny article.
By the way this was very GW centric article as other companies like PP were not even mentioned. To people that don’t know better that might give expression that there is not others and GW is only company making these games. As we all know thats not true at all but not everyone knows it.
I never even commented on the article. D’oh. I figure mainstream attention is definitely a good thing, how many of us got into the hobby through Heroquest/Space Crusade, or 40K? Maybe today there are a few more. Bonus.
GW make the effort to be on the highstreet, it’s hardy surprising other companies game systems were not touched upon in any great detail. I would conjecture most gamers in the last couple of decades got into the overall hobby through GW. Media attention on the hobby can only be a good thing. It generates more interest and creates conversation and promotion which propels the overall industry forwards.
Articles like this from the BBC worry me. As a shareholder in GW I’m a little concerned to hear regular customers refer to their prices as ‘eye watering’. It puts potential gamers off. That’s bad for me. Yes, GW are doing superbly at the moment but is anyone else thinking – Life, what’ll it be this year? Will the wife’s Louis Boutin’s finally be cheaper than a Necron?
My real concern is I can’t see a long term. A chum at wokr has bought a 3d printer. At the moment it’s sort of dot matrix, but in a few years that went to thousands of pixels full colour. What happens when 3d printing isn’t just niche but normal? Will Tom Kirby et al., say, hey, don’t care, made millions out of you mugs, bye! and wander off into the sunset leaving 40K to live on life support, trapped in the same dark copyright hell hole that Tolkien is or will they respond with price cuts to revitalise the hobby?
Let’s be honest: if someone offered me a few million for my company I’d take it tomorrow. It’s the way of things and that’s how shareholders think – but here, I’m a gamer and I want GW to go on making the great stuff they do and bringing ever more, younger, older, retired, rejuvenated players back in who say “Yeah, it’s a bit on the high side, but look at the quality, the innovation!” Also the economy is really struggling. Fuel has never been more expensive, that means oil is costly, so plastic is up. That’s why the shift to finecast – the price of metal but they still made record profits.
I want more people gaming, fewer people worrying about the cost – no matter who they buy from.
Despite being marked down by the people that can’t be bothered to post a reasoned reply as to why I am wrong I will say it again. The board are creaming off profits.
Wells and his sidekick don’t give a poop about the long term future of GW.
Having awarded themselves plenty big dividends and bonuses at a time when the company was not making any growth will be seen as lining their nests ready for their retirement.
The article mentioned the dividends payout, ” How many other British companies, for example, could report a 40% rise in their latest half-year pre-tax profits?”
But that is not the complete picture. iirc sales were stagnant at best if not down.
Whatever spin people want to put on it the company is not in financial good health.
As a shareholder you have a right to be concerned about the short termism, and a board that is creaming off profits.
They think there is no need for further investment according to a statement in the last financial report and awarded the divi which nicely boosted the share value, but does nothing for the company’s long term future imho.
http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/people/person.asp?personId=39352308&ticker=GAW:LN
I think it’s typical for the big name to get all the glory in such an article. Though it would break the average heart here to hear it, GW did not invent wargames, nor are they the only game (nor the best – sorry, guys!) in town. But you see the same thing happening anytime there’s news for D&D. When 5th Ed was announced, the press pounced on the notion that WoTC was somehow doing something new and innovative in asking their fanbase to participate in development. But there’s nothing new about that at all, and in fact, in all the articles I read, not a mention was made of Paizo and Pathfinder, the company that has always asked for player input, with their flagship product, which happens to be outselling D&D. But such is the way; the authors of such articles are themselves fairly uneducated on these hobbies, and those who are seek to gain the widest audience by talking about the best-known names.
As to whether it is a good thing for games to go mainstream, they already are, for the most part. Here in the states, the nerds rule the roost, with awards and high ratings going to shows like The Big Bang Theory, and Dungeons & Dragons getting mentions on all sorts of shows and movies. There are mentions of all sorts of Fantasy and Sci-Fi characters and tropes all across the media, as kids who were gamers basically have taken over entertainment as writers, producers, directors, and creators. Seems to me the only people who don’t know (or pretend to don’t know) about these things are people in the straight-laced news media. Sometimes those people seem so ignorant about so much it makes me wonder if they grow up in vacuums.
People complaining that the article doesn’t mention other games companies have obviously missed the point. The article came about because GW recently reached 25 years of being around.
It’s in the first line of the article, in bold no less.
Warhammer 40,000 – set in a science fantasy universe – has just turned 25. Why are grown men still launching tabletop war?
This article is a fluff piece; nothing more. If you really thought that the article would be some all-encompassing thing that would talk about the many other game systems, then I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
GW might have done some questionable things, but, you know what? They’re still around after 25 years and are still doing “alright” in this economic climate (a simple walk around a city centre and seeing how many store spaces aren’t being used tells you how rough things are).
I don’t see why people raise the issue of cost and compare it with other game systems. You pay 20-30 quid for other rule books. How can you compare Mantic products with GW products as they’re completely different things. Mantic is cheaper, but if you’re going to tell me that you think the quality of their models matches GW models (and that isn’t meant as a dig), then you’re a loon.
I don’t understand how people bring in PP to the discussion when it comes to cost. Warmachine has the nice bonus in that you can start playing on a small points level, but a 35 point army is still going to set you back a chunk of money. There’s a fair few units out there that will cost you a bit when you take into account you have to buy a full unit plus officer attachments and other unit attachments and maybe a solo.
How much do other companies benefit from GW being around? How much of a gateway is WHF / 40k for people to go on and try other games?
Not missing the point at all
There is nothing wrong in suggesting that an article about why adults play with toy soldiers could not have been broadened
We know that it was sparked off by the anniversary, but so what? Wargamming has been going on for a lot longer. cf the video that Lucas provided a linky for.
What has changed perhaps are the perceptions of (generally male) hobbies.
Can’t remember where I saw it but there was a discussion of how it was accepted and even expected that adults would have some sort of pastime, iirc the item was about train sets. No one thought anything of men collecting toy soldiers and playing war games.
All this talk of niche marketing is frankly baffling to me. I suspect that it is not so much a question of the hobby being seen as a niche hobby, but as the hobbyists themselves enjoying the status and as a way of justifying to themselves exorbitant amounts of expenditure. cue indignation…
Why does anyone even give a fig if the hobby is mainstream or niche? It is an unnecessary construct imho.
Frankly I have never come across anyone who has pointed and laughed at me about my hobbies. I suspect any unjust criticism is from younger bucks who are merely trying to portray their own cool by classing the hobby as nerdy. /pop social psychology
If GW was not around then wargamming would still be happening.
Games Workshop are not the be all and end all of the hobby.
That is not an attack on GW either, rather the questioning the blinkered attitude that exists in some quarters.
I didn’t say there was anything wrong with people suggesting that the article might have expanded upon to include other company game systems, I said there was something wrong with people complaining that it didn’t.
There is a difference.
Nor did I say Wargaming wouldn’t be around if GW didn’t exist. I said that other companies certainly benefit from GW being around. You can’t possibly dispute that.
So what I am seeing is suggestion is different from what you are seeing as a complaint.
You are still incorrect imho. Unless you are specifically referring to companies who make accessories to be used with GW products, I don’t see how GW has that much influence. Marginal at best for getting people interested.
But people were interested in Wargamming a long time before
Why pay loads for minis and spend all that time painting when you can play Semantics: The Board Game tm on the internet for free? 😉
I don’t see how you can say I’m incorrect and then say I’m correct. It’s fairly black or white in that regard.
You’ve already mentioned companies that provide accessories or conversion kits, of which there is a significant chuck, but then what about Relic?
We can of course just go around in circles whether we feel games like Heroquest / Space Hulk introduced people into miniature gaming back in the day, the presence of shops in the high street led people to become interested in war gaming in the first place, or popular computer games sparking some interest, has had a significant or marginal effect on wargaming’s popularity.
it was very interesting and any publicitys good publicity. The only bit that annoyed me was the expolitative monopoly bit, of course GW charge higher prices when they can, its called being a business, you’re not obliged to buy them. If adults complain about their kids being exploited they should have taught them to not waste their money at a younger age.
I’d like to give a big shout out to BATTLE MASTERS which got me started in this whole thing. My father bought it for me and played battles against me. Then he picked up Hero Quest. THEN I WAS HOOKED FOREVER LIKE CRACK. THE THIRST WILL NEVER LET GO OF ME.
But I do think it’s a bit pointless and weird to be moaning that no one else is getting a look in. The “toy soldiers” is a snarky headline hook, don’t take it too seriously. The actual article is just about 40K and their 25 years. Warhammer fantasy also barely gets a mention, yet you want them to talk about other more obscure games? Chillax. It’s a pretty good overview of 40k and pretty well researched by BBC standards.