Games Workshop – What Are You Thinking?
January 17, 2014 by warzan
So yesterday had an interesting development, in a sudden slide in the value of Games Workshop stock upon the announcement that they had a sizable drop in turnover and a hefty drop in profits.
Every single one of us in the industry will have an opinion on this, but that has to be tempered with the knowledge that very very few of us will fully understand the implications of yesterdays news (if any), and just what exactly is going on.
This is my riff on the topic…
I have been running small businesses with my brother @lloyd since we were 18 and 16 years old, in that time we have had the good fortune to work with some of the larger companies (and their management) in the world, across quite a wide range of industries.
We have repeatedly seen incompetence, as that just exists everywhere and in everyone of us, as you just can’t get it right all the time, but we have also seen some stellar business people in action.
Something they have all had in common was, they never allowed a knee jerk reaction to influence their strategy for the company.
A strategy for a large corporation could be 10, 20, 50 or even 100 years in terms of its foresight and time to execution. (Look at Google's recent investments for an example of this)
In that time many factors, hiccups and disasters can strike, but unless you understand the grand strategy it’s very difficult to say what effect these ‘bumps in the road’ have.
GW in their mission statement say they want to do what they are doing forever… and forever is a long time.
Lets have a look at their business and see if we can spot the strategy.
The battle with online retailers.
This was a simple and clear threat to GW, if it wasn't controlled, it would devalue their product until it became a commodity that would sell in pound shops. You see anyone could sell online, and with the way trade terms were set up, GW would act as their warehouse. No investment was required, and no love for the product necessary. If you succeeded great, most likely you were cheaper and had the gumption to advertise as much as possible to facilitate fast growth, but while GW were acting as your warehouse, your risk and exposure would be very low.
In the mean time the nature of the business would change from one of quality and 'buying into the hobby', to one of cut throat discounts to ensure you would come out top of the land grab.
If it continued the cost of product would fall for sure, but the profit margins would become so squeezed that there wouldn't be enough profit generated to actually continue with the expensive stuff of creating and supporting the product and intellectual property that gives it it's value.
(If you want evidence look at the areas GW has been cutting over recent years, people from stores (that's support), the support lines (that’s support too), the more expensive game designers, sculptors and painters (that’s development), Games Day.
GW could have found itself in the position that the bulk of support requests were from those who were buying the products cheaper online, but then requiring the support of their stores and helplines to make sense of their new hobby.
So they are left with the difficult situation of:
|
Activity |
Cost |
Who’s responsible |
|---|---|---|
|
Development |
High Cost |
Games Workshop |
|
Design |
High Cost |
Games Workshop |
|
Manufacture |
High Cost |
Games Workshop |
|
Distribution |
High Cost |
Games Workshop |
|
Warehousing |
High Cost |
Games Workshop |
|
Selling Online |
Medium Cost |
Online Retailer / Games Workshop |
|
Selling Instore |
High Cost |
Games Workshop / Independant Retailer |
|
After Sales (product and hobby information) Support |
High Cost |
Games Workshop Stores / Games Workshop Phone Support / Independent Retailers |
So looking at the above, the party with the lowest risks, were the ones forcing the cost of the products down the most. Yet those with the highest costs were still carrying the burden of creating and supporting the products, with less profits from which to do it.
Of course the landscape has changed somewhat now, trade terms were introduced to try and redistribute the risk around the eco-system that delivers GW products. Margins were reduced for online retailers and trade terms were focused around the aspects of supporting the customer.
Today no retailer outside of Games Workshop carries the full range of GW products, and GW have a policy of the larger your order is, the longer you will have to wait for it to arrive at your warehouse. This is basically saying, if you want to be big, then invest in carrying the range, as we don’t want the cost or burden of acting as your warehouse.
So you buy online, and you could wait anything up to a month for delivery.
Back to the strategy…
So GW want to provide their products forever, however they blindly stumbled into the age of the internet, and the mess they are in today is largely of their own making, and their lack of foresight on these matters is unforgivable… but… to be fair at least understandable. (We all make mistakes - Google missed out on Social!)
The day came when the alarm bells finally went off and they would have seen the writing on the wall, the online retail model, was going to kill Games Workshop. Because GW was not structured in any way whatsoever to support or thrive in an environment where online retail at discounted prices would be the predominant method of supply to the end user.
When the writing's on the wall, they had two choices.
1) Work with all involved in trying to better structure the eco-system to support the business.
2) Force through changes to try and protect the business immediately.
From my understanding they opted for choice 2. Perhaps they felt they were too big to be bothered working with anyone outside, I know from our experience as Beasts of War, we are looked upon with contempt like we are something stuck to their boot, so it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if arrogance ruled more than logic.
However these days, I’m not sure option 1 would have fared any better for them, as even if they wanted to work with those in the eco-system, I’m not convinced the eco-system would have shown any less arrogance.
Coupled with the legislation issues around cartels and price fixing, which I’m not suggesting for a second would have been the purpose of these talks, but you can easily see why GW would be very careful so as not to even give the slightest cause for concern to regulators.
This was not about fixing prices, this was about saving a company and a hobby.
Today
Today, GW have tightened the reins on online retail massively, they have created an environment where if an online retailer wants to be efficient (remember no new ones can join unless they have a physical store), they need to invest up to 1 million pounds in GW stock, and that is unlikely to happen. They have introduced clauses to limit how retailers grow in terms of their own media engines (this was one that directly affected ourselves) ensuring that no competitors grow out of their own eco-system.
They have raised prices to increase the profit margins to try and support the key areas of the business.
They have structured product releases and the availability of products to ensure that those hard core buyers, the ones that are more into their hobby than savings, will buy direct, because that’s where all the products are available (limited editions and direct only stuff), and flow the fastest (in stock and ships next day).
They are gradually turning their stores into lower cost ‘recruitment’ centers, and are pulling more and more of their new recruits online to continue the relationship with them there. The day will come when the recruitment centers will close or become shopping center kiosks.
Strategy again…
The net result of all this is a drop in sales and profit. But when you consider the alternative (boom and bust), perhaps this is all part of the strategy.
Would you do things any differently? … Given the circumstances, I’m not sure I would!
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I’m not sure the huge discounts that the old online retailers offered threatened GW product as much as they threatened established independent retailers. GW got the trade sale and the same amount of money either way. What it did mean was that GW couldn’t remotely compete on price. It wasn’t that the price of the product was being depressed, it was that the direct sales and they additional revenue they provided was being threatened. GW in recent years has been focused on cutting costs and maximising revenues. These terms were a way of doing the latter. They could argue that they also helped bricks & mortars stores too, though the terms hurt them as well.
I don’t (and didn’t in the threat I started) predict doom and gloom for GW. They look to be stable for the foreseeable future. There is a limit to how long cost cutting and revenue maximising can offset falling sales, however. The challenge for GW will be to arrest this slide.
It all equates to the same thing, profits. Profit is the only thing that facilitates growth (other than borrowing).
Turnover without profit is only paying the bills. So anything that reduces profitability, ultimately threatens future investment.
Warzan
Do you feel if GW introduced another range which is more in with what is out there say a 15mm 40k range would they mange to claw back the loss and make more money, there are lots of people who feel GW should offer a 15mm range to there 40k universe. It would appeal more look what Battlefront are achieving with Flames of war World War 2 and Vietnam.
Once again, I’m not Warren but am still going to reply lol.
GW have done smaller scale games in the past. Epic was a 40K game in 6mm. The problem with them is two-fold. The first is that they don’t lend themselves to the painting and modelling side of the hobby as well as 28mm+ minis, and that’s a big part of the appeal that GW has built their business on. The other is that is splits the player base. Either the split is skewed strongly to one game or the other, which is what happened to Epic which was much less popular than 40K. In that case the less popular game doesn’t justify its place in the company and is a waste of resources. Or it splits more evenly, which means one of 40K’s biggest strengths, that so many people play it, becomes diluted. Note that whilst BF have been very successful with FoW, they don’t dilute the brand by introducing at 28mm WW2 game.
@hawker2000 How about GW just do what their name implies and make GAMES.
Games Workshop are really Citadel Miniatures. They bought GW out 30 years ago.
Sounds like another price hike coming to Australia, yay. Never fear Aussies can pay for it. Seems GW is writing their policy just like they did the new Nids Dex.
Leave out spore pods – Because we lost a suit. Failure to make miniatures for rules. They are playing within the spirit of the game.
Leave out parasite – Cull chop shops, Minimise online business for external retailers. Customers who are loyal to gaming communities that purchased from and built a relation with retailers that can no longer stock the line of product that brought them close.
Hike the price of rippers – Hike the price for the Aussies.
Nids cant have allies – Neither can Australians. Online retailers can only sell to their region. Unless you are GW or FW or Black Library…
Out with Iron arm – In with Iron fist.
No one is claiming to wrighting the rules for the Dex – No one is taking responsibility. So blame the independents.
Leave out Doom – Bring on the Doom. Reflected in the stocks perhaps relating to the above.
To be fair though big drop in stock could mean that they are buying up as well. Executive BMW’s don’t buy themselves.
I might collect space marines like everyone else. 3 Centurions for $95, Get em while they are cheap.
Well you’re only £775,000 of their profit every year, not including shipping. Give a few years and Australia wont get any Games Workshop products unless specially ordered and shipped
Living in Europe myself, I’m amazed you Aussies haven’t converted the entire army from eBay or use exclusively alternative minis. Really hard to play the game otherwise I guess.
I see what your saying guys. The question I have is what happened this quarter to have such a drop in profit? 25% looks to me as a steep drop in stock.
For most of my friends that played and still play, they hate the company. It’s a rare company that generates such venom from it’s clients. Only a hand full come to mind that have the same amount of hate coming to them. In most cases that company provides something at least perceived as essential and must be tolerated due to lack of competition or necessity. Games Workshop on the other hand is FAR from essential and most of us will drop it like a hot potato. They better start showing us some love or we may all seek another date to take out for dinner.
Problem is they are making it hard for the brick & mortar stores also. A large component is special items and back catalog items and GW shot themselves in the foot with that one. My store can’t even buy the back catalog stuff anymore from GW, they have such a restrictive policy. When the nearest GW store is 8 hours away, the local hobbies shops are where their product must be sold.
In the long run they are going to price themselves out of the market, and destroy all the good will of the independents, unless they do something about the group think they have going on at the top.
In my home town I have a Games Workshop directly opposite an independent wargame store. I go into GW, look at the awesome models in the cabinets and on the tables, then go across the street and buy my Warhammer from the independent at 15% cheaper. I feel slightly guilty about it, as the chap in the GW store is a real nice guy…this model can’t be sustainable for GW.
GW’s business model relies heavily on high street retail. Looking at HMV, Virgin, etc. that’s not a great idea. They’re kinda stuck with it as they rely on kids, who aren’t necessarily able to shop online easily (certainly not without parents asking awkward questions about how much they’re spending on 10 Witch Elves ;)).
So for most businesses the asnwer would be to ditch (or drastically cut) their retail presence, but for GW it’s a genuine dilemma.
They live in interesting times.
GW’s problems are actually very simple, none of the analysis actually matters afger the fact that they’re looseing customers in the 18-30 range much faster than they gain new blood in the 12 -18 range.
What is after all a toy company is always going to have a slight drop off around the cusp of adulthood, but they’ve failed to make their product accesable, by pricing out pocket money purchases, and a physical innaccesability in some places EG the heavy restriction on online sales over the pond, the net result being less players.
That fault is were GW really really drop the ball: instead of trying to generate more players, they raise prices above inflation and cost increases in an attempt to garner the same profits from fewer customers, wich in turn loses them more customers.
Add to that the seemingly daily increase in companies offering similar or better figures often at better prices, and rules of in most cases better production values, often for free and frankly the only surprise is they were able to cook the books to hide it from the financial types for this long.
“GW’s problems are actually very simple, none of the analysis actually matters afger the fact that they’re looseing customers in the 18-30 range much faster than they gain new blood in the 12 -18 range.”
I find this a particularly compelling argument – The kid with the paper-route or who pushes the ice cream cart is being priced out of the market, leaving only the kids of affluent parents who indulge wargamming. A lot is said about the mega-spenders in the hard-core range but has sustainability been damaged by gutting the entry level? I don’t know but I find it interesting to consider.
I think that might be the main issue, when I was starting out a couple decades ago i could nip into Toymaster in paisley or GW in Glasgow with a fiver and go home with a box of 5 or 6 dudes or a small bike sized vehicle or a dude on a horse etc, birthday or christmas money would see me lugging enough stuff home that the cardboard packageing would have had an impact on the rainforests visable from space. Now it would get practically nothing, so they don’ t get the benefit of selling a kid something with a small inocuous pamphlet inside to get them hooked on the plastic crack.
But they do not make toys though. They basically sell pieces of art with a support game to help facilitate multiple purchases. Children may mistake them for toys though.
Children can never get the fun or intellectual investment out of these games or models than a teen or adult. But it’s a good hook and it’s always good to start the learning curve early.
And an adult, who loves the products, is a far better source of money than a child who gets pocket money and can can maybe one starter set for his birthday.
It’s not pocket money that GW are relying on. Their belief is two-fold, that by the biggest section of their consumer base is children, and that modern parents will always buy their children what they want to exclusion even if it means going without all but the most fundamental of essentials themselves. Their mantra is that they are recession proof for this reason.
*to the exclusion of spending any money on themselves
I agree warren, but I do think that a box of tactical space marines sold at £15 would still give all the shareholders a good profit by the end of the year. Lets face it they would sell more which means profit would go up, compared to todays over priced products.
I am a veteran gamer in my middle ages and I can remember when Games Workshop said that they are switching to plastic. It caused out cry in the community as people were concerned that they would use a soft plastic like the old Airfix soldiers…lol.
But no they came out and said we will use a hard plastic which will be cheaper to produce figures and in turn those savings will be passed on to our loyal customer base, after all the lead price at the time was going through the roof.
Also the problem with profit it can quickly turn into greed….which will also threaten future investment.
I also think Games Workshop have over the years designed too many ranges, it should have kept to a core of 4 races per gaming system, perhaps a 5th if it was needed. That way you would need less staff, production costs would be lower and in turn retail price would be more balanced. On top of that at least all the army books could get updated within the rules period and not have what they have now is army bboks that are at least 2 editions out.
Also by concentrating on a smaller product line we as the consumer could expect a far great quality product than we have now. The last thing I bought from Games Workshop was the new Dark Angels Codex, what can I say, I think a 5 year old wrote it. So that says to me that there stratagey is all about banging out products without a care in quality control.
It is a shame as although I do not buy many products from Games Workshop due to their pricing stratagey, I do think on the whole they do produce nice figures but a shame about the price.
As I said in the forum thread, pricing is an issue, specifically the cost of entry, but I do think ,whilst everything you mention is completely right, it doesnt touch the underlying problems.
And that is the games are just not very good any more. Thats the crux of it, forget the business and marketing, the internet has enabled people to see a wider world of gaming (and THAT is the main source of disdain for you I would think, this site allows a direct comparison of product and experience of different games, they do not fair well), the problem is the games have lost their way.
The rules are badly written, the mechanics are clunky, finecast put to bed the image of quality for ever, and whilst some of this has been true for as long as I’ve been playing (2nd edition 40K is great, but it is also a very clunky game to play), there are now other games widely available that just do it better.
It really is that simple I think.
Even the art direction has taken a beating, and the fluff has been stretched beyond the limits of absurdity too, heck, I dont play the games but Privateer Press even do the Hobby Magazine thing better than GW these days.
To sort this out, they first need to lower the cost of entry, be it necromunda/mordheim reboots or something else, they need to compete with the low cost game in a box that is taking over the market – X wing is I would think the biggest success story of the last couple of years, low cost, quick games, little to no hobby time. 25 years ago the GW of the time would be inovating a game like X wing (with paint yourself minis I would imagine), these days I wouldnt expect them to come up with anything original in a million years.
They also need to modernise 40K and Fantasy, if they want it to be mass battles, lets not have on eguy standing for half an hour whilst the other guys does his thing, lets get some new mechanics to make it engaging for both players all the time, when 2nd and 3rd were made, no one knew any different, it was fine, and there were less models, now it just doesnt suit the game they need to support the volume of mini sales they require.
They are the fundamental problems I think, and the endless spurt of DLC that no one can possible keep up with is only making it worse.
“And that is the games are just not very good any more.”
That is purely subjective. Plenty of others would vehemently disagree 😉
I think, in terms of the market as it now exists, GW games are no longer the pinnacle, they used to be, the best minis, the best worlds, the best games.
Other companies make better games now, and they are relatively easy to get hold of. 25 years ago the former could arguably be true, the latter wasnt.
GW are essentially still producing a variant of third edition 40K, in market thats moved on 20 years, that is what I mean when I say not very good.
I still play 40K, I still play 2nd edition in fact, and I always enjoy it, but as a product, I cannot argue that warmahordes is a better ruleset, I dont like the game and do not play it, but I can see its just a higher quality product, the rules are more defined better written and better edited. For less cost.
I’d say similar with Infinity, which is a far more complex game, but translation issues aside, is far better produced.
Id say the current iteration of Kings of War, whilst not to my tastes as a game, is a better polished product in terms of game structure and flow than Fantasy. That is also better edited too.
When I say there are not any good any more, I mean they are just not well made products now. Others are simply better, never mind cheaper.
No less a person than Rick Priestly himself believes WFB and 40K as games are weighted down by their history and get more so which each new edition.
Yup but another way to look at that is…
It makes the designers task more difficult, but that does not necessarily mean the end result is worse.
That ‘history’ adds depth in equal measure to encumbrance.
Its not just the weight of history, this edition of 40K has been out for about 18 months.
By my reckoning there are more than 30 additional rulesets to accompany it already.
Some of them are digital only AND rewrite the basic rules (especially the force organisation chart).
Thats just a mess whatever way you look at it.
He was speaking specifically about the challenges that the studio face as game designers when the time comes to write a new edition. Not only can they not evolve the game mechanics, they’re actively hindered from doing new things by having to stick to a thirty year design philosophy.
Now I’ll stress, that doesn’t mean the game isn’t good. Ultimately that’s personal opinion. But it does lend a lot of credence to the argument that the games are dated and struggling to compete as game systems to the people who are prepared to let other systems compete when choosing what to play.
This weight is even more reason why GW could do with creating entirely new IP from scratch – a new fantasy and scifi game, both of which make use of evolved and modernized rule sets, and create new gateway systems for GW customers.
Then from there these modern rules can then be used as the test bed for an eventual modernization or WHFB and WH40K, with those game lines kept as their classic lines, that people can graduate to.
Look at what Onyx Path has done with World of Darkness; they ended the old setting, created new, derived IP that did not have the weight of setting and metaplot, which allowed them to re-explore themes of those types of games and then also modernize a system (and in turn remodernize it as they have done recently). Then with those products being successful they have been able to support their classic products once more with their anniversary editions.
If they diversified and created new IP, and more modern games, then at least they could stablize knowing if anything they are just cannibalizing their own sales, with the hope of also growing them.
And of course new IP is something they can sell to computer games etc.
Yes it is subjective, but it also comes down to a matter of getting games. I can list many games I would rather play…which is a bad thing. There installed base allows for players like me to stay in the hobby. For a long time the only miniatures game I played was Command Decision and Battletech. Again games I could get. I play WH 40K & Dungeons and Dragons both for the same reason, I can get games of it. In both cases I believe there are more interesting systems I would rather play.
That being said…
Games Workshop and Wizards are gateway drugs to miniatures and roleplaying respectively. I think Wizards realized that a couple of years ago when they tried to right the ship and came out with the essentials version of 4th edition, and 5th edition is supposed to take that concept even further. We’ll see if they succeed. Games Workshop needs to embrace their gateway into the hobby and cater to that market.
To be a gateway I think around $100 (sorry stupid American here) is an acceptable entry price. While I know that GW has the starter set, I do not think it is enough. They should take all their armies battle boxes, include the rules and go OK $100 you can have any army we print at a playable level. Even if GW takes those army boxes at a loss leader, which honestly I do not think they will. $100 -> 100% markup for the store -> $50 to GW -> $10 for shipping -> $40 in actual revenue -> $10 for a cheap rule book -> $1 a miniature for approximately 30 minis a box. I think I could make money off that model. Is it enough to support R&D & Marketing? Probably not, but GW already has the infrastructure for that, the starter box should aim for around 500 points. All the pretty expansions will be the money makers. You need to make it as easy as possible to get the first hit.
Finally (sorry rambling here),
They need to repair relationships with their retailers. Electronic Arts has for the past 2 years gotten an award for being the worst company. I firmly believe this distinction comes from the way they have treated some of their employees, not the products they produce or the price they charge for them. In a freely connected society that we have today, it is easy for me to take my gripes to the people. In GW’s case their ambassadors are the FLGS and if the FLGS is pissed at them the rest of us are. Most gamers do not go to Cons, I am lucky and live in Cincinnati, so Origins in Columbus, GenCon in Indianapolis, and Dragon Con in Atlanta are not far away for me. So what is being played at the local game store is most of the exposure that local gamers are going to get to a game.
TLDR:
1. There are better games IMHO
2. GW is gateway miniature game and should be marketed and developed as such.
3. GW needs to do some relation repair work with independent retailers.
–Chris
I just wrote the longest reply to this, then realised I can sum it up reasonably simply:
GW are not the only kid on the block any more. This is largely their own fault (cost, attitude, limited product range). This will hit bottom line.
Companies like PP, Mantic, Battlefront, Corvus Belli, and many, many more engage with their customer’s better, are equal or better value, and fill gaps that GW doesn’t care about (skirmish games, sports type games, fast-play rules etc). At what point will GW take their heads from their behinds and realise that for the first time since the mid-80’s, they have real competition?
“many more engage with their customer’s better, are equal or better value”
True, but they are also supporting a tiny fraction of the customer base. That support is not an easy thing to scale.
It’s not an easy thing to engage with as many people as GW have in their market share, but GW have “solved” that already, in that they don’t even try to any more, first their own message boards got pulled, then the main facebook page was junked so people could talk to their local store who would have the ultimate get out of jail card of “Nottinham havn’t told us” for anything more complicated than opening times.
GW’s only interaction with the fanbase now is white dwarf, going weekly with a smaller edition will IMO help, but print media is always one sided, especially compared to Don Alessio or @quirkworthy joining in conversation about their games here on BOW and elsewere on the interwebs. It seems like GW would rather ignore all negative critisism ( constructive or otherwise) and hope that if they tell us we want their product enough times some quantum mechanic of causality will make it so…
Well of course the competition are going to be better value, they don’t have a high street presence…
Isn’t the reason profits are (partly) down, because of royalties? That GW have made a fair chunk of money from computer games in recent years, but with what has happened to Relic, etc.. and instead we’ve had all these little tablet games (Space Hulk / Heroquest / etc..) where we’ve not seen so much of a return?
DoW 3 and Total Warhammer (maybe add that 40k MMO ftp thing?) when they do get release, will probably see the GW profits go back up.
Note, I’m not commenting on any of the other GW business practices, although I suppose you could point to the recent changes in White Dwarf and perhaps a new way of doing releases, is an indication things are changing? Perhaps getting around to releasing a bunch of stuff digitally had a high up-front cost?
Also, you know, economic downturn and all that.
Royalties were higher in this set of figures as I recall.
This is simply down to selling less.
I see the fix Warren. Mind control the masses should salve everything…
@warzan, fair point, but they don’t seem to try very hard do they? The website is purely a store, look at battlefront for an example of a website to engage the community, look at how much community engagement mantic or the dropzone people generate through outlets such as your good selves, GW don’t even try!
“but they don’t seem to try very hard do they?”
Not through 3rd parties they don’t.
But that’s such a huge part of the hobby now! I only know about Dropzone, Bolt action and Mantic through 3rd party sites, if GW was there with yummy goodness to head deserters like me off at the pass, then, well, they may have headed me off at the pass…
And their own site tells you precisely squat about the hobby! It just screams – buy our stuff!!! Which, obviously is what they want, but it’s not air, or food, or water, or the internet, it’s not 100% essential to our existence, they need to make more effort to sell it to us, not less!!!
I used to go to our GW favorite almost every week, or at least fortnightly with my son, and while there we used to:
– meet and chat with other gamers
– get the occasional game
– participate in in-store activities such as painting competitions
– participate in modelling and painting – sharing tips with others
So far lots of cost to GW but little revenue but I’ve one more bullet:
– spend s#!tloads on models, paints, codexes etc in store. probably more than I could/should afford.
But then one day, a year or so ago, we and the other older (and by older i only mean over 16) gamers were effectively told we weren’t welcome to do this. Policy handed down said they were going to be dedicating the weekend to focus on new, young gamers – you know, the sort that like SM Crusaders and Lord of Skulls, We couldn’t book/use the tables, paint stations etc. and certainly couldn’t stand around clogging up the store sharing our hobby. They have a mid-week gaming night for over 16s but work commitments ets means we maybe make one of those a month if lucky.
Result: I probably only spent 10% on GW compared to before and their wares haven;t appeared on the last few Christmas/Birthday lists. White Dwarf still arrives an 80% of the time we think “Meh!”. The store used to take a coach and a half to GamesDay – this year they barely filled a mini-bus. .
Loyalty works both ways GW! I invested in your wares as one of my main hobbies, that I shared with my mid-teen son for many years, and kept buying your wares while the product and channel strategy met our needs. Then you blew us out.
I wouldn’t call myself a dedicated adult GW gamer with cash to burn – you’re clearly milking those through FW and all this heresy stuff. As a business professional I’ve seen this decline coming for two years and the desperate digital publishing strategy didn’t save you.
You didn’t even get your market research right there but let yourself be guided by Apple Fanboi creatives; missing the point that approximately 10 Android devices sell for every iOS device and that the geek in most GW fans is going to make them an Android user. I still can’t get the Iyanden book on mine!
You had us, thousands of us who spent lots, and you kicked us out for kids with pocket money and pester power. Those I know who still buy significant amounts do so online… the loyalty to pay store price is gone! More often the conversations are less about what’s in WD and more about other Kickstarters, I got approx 5 onto Myth myself.
I still have all those boxes of yet to be assembled figures to keep me going at home for a while. I’ll pop by when I’m in town… if you’re still there that is!
GW is like Republican party in US. Using same strategy as before even when its clear that it dosen’t work anymore.I have no doubt that part of is that stock markets demand using short sighted sales focused strategy that GW is currently using. How ever strategy that woul keep customers around would be better on long term as it makes sure that they keep buying products in future as well when they possible have extra income to spend. But thats not what keeps stock values up, high sales are that generate profit. So GW being in stock market might be more curse than blessing.
“This was not about fixing prices, this was about saving a company and a hobby.”
If GW dies, the hobby will endure. That’s a fact.
“a hobby” != “the hobby”
😉
@ warzan.
The ONLY thing that promotes business growth is meeting or exceeding your customer expectations .Profits allow this to continue.
JUST focusing on profit , while ignoring the needs and desires of the (potential) customers , is the quickest way to go out of business.
GW plc corporate management have largely ignored their extensive potential customer base, and simply countered falling sales volumes with an increase in retail prices , reducing out lets to GW only , and cutting costs.(Often at the cost of reducing the added value GW stores USED to deliver.)
If we look at other companies GROWING their business in the same market.
They focus on delivering great game play and perceived value for money.This seems to be very effective at promoting positive word of mouth and letting vets (and cool sites like BoW,)lead the recruitment of new players.And allows much lower price point , because they Do NOT NEED an expencive chain of B&M stores to promote product in an isolationist way.
The reason GW continues uses B&M stores, is because their products do not compare well with other products in the open market.(On perceived value for money.)
They use them to try to insulate their new customers from the rest of the market.(Until the level of investment made in GW products keeps them hooked.)
And this process of running B&M stores costs them over 60% of their gross profit.Which artificially inflates the cost of the product by at least 40%.
The actual cost for manufacturing a GW product is 24% of the retail cost.(That includes everything apart from the cost of GW s own chain of retail stores, and logistic cost in moving product to retail.)
Over 50% of the price you pay goes to keep the GW B&M stores open .
(With 10% going to logistic costs.)
GW was the market leader with next to no competition , an enthusiastic fan base and inspiring IP.
Some how Mr T Kirby focusing on short term profit, has managed to lose over 50% of GW sales volumes along with a huge amount of the good will the GW studio built up pre 1999.
Which is good for war gamers due to the massive variety of great games and minatures available now.
But not so good if you want to actually play a game of WHFB/40k..
“JUST focusing on profit , while ignoring the needs and desires of the (potential) customers , is the quickest way to go out of business.”
They may well be ‘focusing on their customers’ just not all of them, but a subset that they’d like to keep.
It makes little sense until you think about the conundrum – the way the eco-system was (perhaps is) growth only aids the thing that harms the company (in it’s current structure).
The structure has to change first – and it’s how you go about that, which is key.
And it’s worth remembering the B&M stores have been there and part of GW from the start, they are not a new thing, and their current structure has its foundations resting upon it.
It’s no trivial matter to wipe out 500 stores just because your competitors who are a fraction of your size, don’t require them.
I’m not sure I agree with that. GW use the stores as a recruiting method rather than to keep people away from other companies. They did it when there were no other competing companies. There’s a debate to be had as to whether they’re worth the expenditure in the internet age.
Equally, GW’s competition isn’t really competition. Even if GW added up the revenue of its 50 nearest wargaming competitors it would probably go out of business on that amount of money. The challenges facing it are not the challenges facing PP, Mantic, Corvus Belli, or any of the other gaming companies, so the strategies need to be different too.
For clarity, the above post is in reply to lanrak rather than Warren, who ninja’d his post in whilst I was typing mine lol
In the past year I’ve switched from GW, which I’ve been with 20+ years almost exclusively, to Privateer. I’m only in the hobby for the painting and modelling these days, and the GW sculpts for the past couple of years has been increasingly uninteresting to me — I consider the majority of them to be outright bad, in fact — with only a handful of new releases I’d have any interest in picking up to paint. I still have a soft spot for GW, and there’s no question that their plastic casting technology is top notch, but if they’re not making models that look fun to paint they’re not going to have my custom.
The purpose of any business is to make a profit. Its a simple fact of economics. But like all businesses you need a market to sell to and service that is why most businesses, starting off ,rely heavily on customer focus. No customers equals no sales which means no profit simple maths.
I was introduced to gaming by a long time ago and I was a huge fan of workshop, I even served in the emperors legions, if you get, me for a few years and it looks to me that it is nothing like it was but there is no point living in the past.
I left the whole hobby of gaming for years and from time to time popped my head in to see what was going on, but as a veteran gamer the ‘vibe’ you got just died. I feel the likes of mantic and others have little to fear from GW there systems, ideas and customer focus has grown with there business and its good to see and its not just because they are ‘cheaper’ to buy its the fact that they are saying hey OK buy this game and quess we what you to let us know how we can do things better.
I do feel GW have lost there focus, maybe through no fault of there own, they are still the biggest guy on the block, but maybe they could take a leaf out of someone else’s book.
Hi Warren,
Interesting post, and raising a number of points. I work for an online retailer, who also produces their own products, and has sold them through third parties. So I have a fair grasp of both pureplay online retail, and making use of production capability and/or IP.
The fact of the matter, is that GW clamping down on third party retailers does prevent the product becoming commodity. But I’d argue that 20% discount on GW prices, is not a commodity price.
I’ve found it’s generally best to apply the laws of constraint, when analysing a business. GW was selling products online, and offline. Third parties were arguably cannibalising sales, at a lower price point. Now, one of two criteria needs to be met for this to be a logical business decision. Either:
1. GW needs to be producing good as fast as possible to meet demand (Ie, there are so many aggregate sales, that sales through third parties actively reduce GWs sales supply). We know this is not the case.
2. GW needs to demonstrate that the proportion of third party sales, converted to first party in the event of shutting the third party down, multiplied by the profit difference outweighs the income from the third party sale.
In short, if GW can only produce 10 models a day, and could sell all 10 per day themselves, they should cut supplies to third parties.
If GW sells for $10 profit, and the third parties pay GW $5 profit, then GW needs to make sure that half the third party sales becomes GW sales.
They’ve categorically demonstrated, that neither of these conditions were met.
When a company’s profits are falling (lets ignore the change in licensing $$) you can reduce development, reduce support, reduce price, or you can produce a more desirable overall product.
GW has focused on reducing development, reducing support, and reducing price. They’ve also worked on producing more desirable models. But that is where I believe they are going wrong. You see, they don’t actually sell models. They sell an experience, and wanky as it sounds, that’s what you buy into. The Black Library, and Forgeworld have demonstrated that the setting is profitable, and the setting is definitely part of the product. Part of the product is the game system, and part of it is the game community. And toxic as the GW community has been online at times, it has value.
GW has all be extinguished the GW community in Australia in 10 years. Warmahordes has eaten up it’s tournament scene (every convention used to have a 40k tournament or two, now most don’t, but they all have warmahordes). And the price increases here (we pay about 50% markup on the UK/US prices) mean a lot of people have moved on. Interestingly, many of them still read black library books, but no longer play.
It costs a lot to acquire a new customer, and while I understand they believe they should focus on kids (a mantra that made more sense in the 90s, after they’d just made the transition from “RPG” to “wargaming”) you should never CUT OFF a market segment simply because you focus somewhere else. Treating your customers like scorn, is a good way to lose customers. And ultimately, the numbers show that GW is losing customers. If you believe their shareholder statements, GW has swung the axe on operating expenses. To come out BEHIND on profit, points to something seriously wrong.
Cutting third party sales, massive price increases, cutting off sales overseas, cutting of third parties’ access to your full range, and rapid product release all point to panic. And much as I enjoy 40k as a game, I’m not going to pretend that GW is doing anything other than reaping what they’ve been sewing for the past 8 or so years.
“In short, if GW can only produce 10 models a day, and could sell all 10 per day themselves, they should cut supplies to third parties.”
I feel this is along the right lines, but I think it’s more about demand than supply.
Whatever way you shake it this is a niche market. And GW is quite able to supply and service the entire market, even if it grew to twice the size.
The question is whether GW are capable of growing the market, or need the support of 3rd parties to do that (Retailers/Media etc)
Regardless of my thoughts on this, GW feel 100% that they DO NOT need any 3rd party to support the success of their business.
And some they only work with because the law says they have to.
If GW export there production to 3rd party companies would it save money for them or would they incur more costs?
I think this is part of the problem though.
GW doesn’t understand, that BoW, natfka, BOLS, dakka etc are helping them.
They can leave fan sites alone, without compromising on their intellectual property. They won’t let internet sites use their own product shots, to sell their own products, and yet they haven’t managed to stop the chinese and ukrainian knock-off forgeworld/finecast models.
They don’t understand their customers, they don’t seem to understand the (new and changed) wargaming market, and they don’t understand the internet.
I don’t believe that games workshop, even in the “good times” got near to saturating the market. Nowhere close. Even niche markets (in fact, even more so with niche markets) can be expanded. If GW had simply made sure that they made a profit (rather than a loss) on internet sales of their products, then they would be in a far better position. At the moment, they are still reacting to that shock, by pitting themselves against their own stockists and internet resellers.
In any event, if we return to the theory of constraints. I asked not if GW was selling to every customer they had, but if they were selling at their capacity to product. Improving the capacity, and to a certain extent the efficiency of their production, is of little or no value if the constraint on the business is still sales.
Lets, for arguments sake, assume that GW is producing more than they can sell. All the insider information that has come out, suggests this is the case. And we aren’t seeing product delivery delays, except on launch for some models.
If GW isn’t selling their manufacturing capacity, improving that capacity or the efficiency of that capacity is a waste. Instead, they should be making deals to sell their product, even if they have to reduce prices. As long as those prices are still profitable (the mistake they made around 2007 was selling to third parties at a price that didn’t recoup their total costs including licensing and development) that’s going to be beneficial? Want to improve your direct sales? Create an incentive to purchase.
Using a big stick and a legal department to enforce your will, is stupid.
Use the carrot, not the stick ANYWHERE near or even tangential to your customers.
Let’s hypothetically use some ideas that GW may have come up with, in the past.
Oh, I know.
GW stores have a loyalty scheme (let’s call them, skulls just to pluck a random word out of the air), and let’s offer triple if you buy from the gw webstore. You are going to see a lot of interest, and people wanting to get their lands on the limited edition skull merchandise. If you constrain margin based on stock levels and having a physical store, and prioritise stock availability, you’ll find this will work well.
That’s how a reasonable company, would have played this. Offer customers a REASON not to go to the lowest price (THIS is how you combat commodity pricing, by offering perceived value). Further, people can get into the hobby for cheaper if they wish, but you can bet your bottom dollar they’ll want limited edition models, assuming you make your promo items tasty enough.
GW is failing, because they are treating their customers with scorn. And because they are treating their partners like shit. Instead of changing trade terms every year, make one good change, and offer loyalty incentives to customers. Logical as I am, I’d find that pretty hard to resist.
The fact that there is no renew of Blood Bowl after seeing the success of their digital counterpart, tons of alternative miniatures and Dreadball being greatly successful ( clearly is a different game but a miniatures sport game non the less ) shows they have a very belly button strategy…
I hope they realize that, i understand the point of not want to make the product cheap because buy their stuff is also an investment but they are forgetting that you need at least 200 dollars in order to get to play their games properly… with that amount of money in any other game you get 4 factions and tons of extras!
Also things get cheaper, that the way technology works, so it makes no sense for them to try to sell us plastic like if it where diamonds or something rare. They will ended up losing in the long run if they keep that way, it works great with their books this they look pretty beautiful but some just want the digital version and they didn’t bother to give the same experience across all platform ( being platform dependent for your experience is the worst choice possible, at least you need to be able to degrade gracefully to other platforms in order to give a similar experience ).
Anyway, there will probably be some Chopping in the heads department and things will get better.
“The fact that there is no renew of Blood Bowl after seeing the success of their digital counterpart, tons of alternative miniatures and Dreadball being greatly successful ( clearly is a different game but a miniatures sport game non the less ) shows they have a very belly button strategy…”
Im going to play devils advocate here a bit.
Say they did release blood bowl and it became a huge success among the community. People buy blood bowl all over the place and the 15 or so minis you need to play it.
They meet most nights to play and have tournys all over the country.
All fantastic, except they are not buying armies for fantasy or 40k any more… and they only need 15 minis to play blood bowl.
Some times, you can cut your own throat 😉
It’s almost like that’s why GW stopped stocking BB in the stores in the first place 😉
The player community took control over Blood Bowl… There is even an international independant group giving support to the game and updating the rules (even creating new teams). The fact that you don’t need GW’s models to actually play the game (and that the rules are free to download from many web sites) is probably what ended the adventure for GW…
What killed it completely was Finecast as GW weren’t going to transfer the production process of the minis, but what got it out of the stores and WD was the lack of sales to people who were playing the game and buying GW minis for it. It didn’t result in many minis sales.
I don’t see that. Do Dreadball players not play other games ? Doubtful, then Bloodbowl players will still want 40k or Fantasy as well surely.
I used to think that…then I had kids. Suddenly the thought of playing a 2000 point game requiring a table terrain fills me with dread. I only play smaller games now. I still brought and considered myself a GW gamer but I’ve realised now I actually shifted all my spending to a third parties. I realised the last GW figure was some Hobbit plastics which were at a fire sale 50% off. That was 7 months ago. Before that I got an Empire witch hunter.
Granted I don’t spend much I have played Eldar and Dwarfs for years and don’t need anything but GW has nothing to service my niche of a game to play in an hour or less on a coffee table. So the new Eldar releases lovely looking as it was just passed me by.
6th edition completely out priced me. I don’t rant about it it was just a fact the cost to play exceeded my perceived value for money.
I’ve never owned a business myself so I’m mostly talking out of my ass I guess. But I currently see no good options for GW at all. While they were the lone big dawg in the yard they would dictate all the terms them selves. But today, while they are still one of the largest (perhaps even largest), their games are a few among MANY. I don’t play GW games any more, for various reasons, and I don’t miss them. It would be hugely ironic if GW would release, as a rescue plan, a new “skirmish” level wargame set in the 40k universe. It would feature 20-30 figures and be what 40k used to be before they turned it into some silly mass battle with huge vehicles all over the place. I’m not happy about the sour spot they (GW) have put themselves in but if they go under (not very likely) we all have plenty of other games and companies to go to.
Also, I miss Andy Chambers.
“I’ve never owned a business myself so I’m mostly talking out of my ass I guess. But I currently see no good options for GW at all”
You may never have owned a business but I think you have very clearly spotted the issue here 🙂
Bring the prices inline with other competitors.
Separate design and sales depts, listen to design dept.
Bring back small games, IE space crusade, blood bowl etc
encourage independent retailers to push hobby, more games space = more discount.
Give some product to forums as prizes as way of apologizing.
Use internet forums for feedback, listen to customers.
Its not what a box sells at ; but what it costs for you to sell it which defines your profit and loss sheet. I keep looking at GW on the high street and I compare them to Game as a high street business they are seeing an increase in costs to be present on the high street and a market that has long moved past merely buying online but is actively using mobile and online communities to side step ‘brand messages’ . On one side a shop that is vertically marketed for a single brand proposition and on the other a shop that is seeing is core stock value undermined by digital delivery.. You can be specialist shop in boom times when money is both liquid and in abundance but in the austerity eras you need to be where your markets have gone or you will see a drop in foot fall and interest. I dont see a long term value for multiple stores for either company however they have a strong investment in a delivery mechanism and a production mechanism that can handle just in time operations. GW need to fall back and reduce their foot hold creating a smaller number of larger venues catering to specialist events and promotions or they need to share their overheads and space and find a partner through which digital operations can be aligned to physical deliveries. They have maintained a vice like grip on their IP and their product yet I never saw them , and still do not view them as the sole gateway into the hobby they are an adjunct to the interests and whilst many specialise their sparetime in that universe it would not be an end to the community if they were to fade away. Markets just like Nature abhor a vacuum and communities eventually fill the space with a new fascination.
I know it’s not your point, but it’s not like Austerity is an excuse. Australia has been the test bed for all the changes GW has been making, and we are not in a recession. We’ve got good employment, good disposable incomes for those in the 18 – 30 bracket, and yet GW is not healthy in Australia.
GW doesn’t want US merchants to sell to Australia, or UK merchants. And yet would they lose money if they did? Only if we were prepared to cough up $160+ for dark vengeance in the first place. The dollar has dropped a lot, and it should still be $115, further the US and UK prices are kept pretty stable with regard to currency rates.
I thought I’d add something further:
Online sales these days, is about things like re-marketing. Increasing people’s touch points with your business, and making those touch points both rewarding for the customer, and as frequent as possible.
That applies to real life retail to.
Does that sound like GW’s strategy? Churn and Burn is a dead end.
Businesses will charge what they think the public will pay. You can’t make a profit by selling at a loss. The fact that GW is restricting online sales is one reason they are losing money. An online retailer would buy products from GW and sell it to a buyer at a discount. That is good all around. Good for the customer, they are saving money and might buy more. Good for the online retailer, since they are making money. Good for GW since they are making money. Trouble is, GW wants all the profit! They are making themselves look bad and greedy too, which then chases away customers and investors too.
[I’m Playing Devils Advocate Again]
So GW needs to thank an Online Retailer who is a guy or gal with a garage, for selling their product at 25% – 30% off, while GW handle the costs of creating, manufacturing and warehousing the product for that retailer?
Because 4 years ago that’s pretty much what the landscape looked like 🙂
Yes, because cannibalisation, and the ability to turn cannibalisation of sales into 1st party sales is nearly always over-estimated by marketing guys until they fail to hit their targets. Then they’ll admit it’s hard to deal with.
The cost to create, manufacture, and warehouse the product is part of the price of the product sold to the retailer. If they weren’t making money of that, they wouldn’t sell it at that price.
If we suggest that GW makes 1/3 the profit for a third party sales, they need to convert 30% of those guys who were paying 25 – 30% less. Except now GW has put the price up. That’s how you end up with lower profits, despite cracking down on your independent stockists, and saving costs.
There are ZERO marketing guys in GW, everything comes down from the top chair. Part of their strength, but also a weakness.
What you are suggesting wouldn’t be an issue ‘before the internet’.
Remember GW were a manufacturer & retailer before eCommerce took off.
Their pre existing company structure didn’t suit the change.
And structure (just like strategy) doesn’t happen over night.
But Warren, my independent hobby store sells GW at a 15% discount. Online retailers give a better discount because they very low overhead. GW wants profits. They way to do that is to expand how to move their product, not curtail it. Online sellers aren’t going to give the stuff away, they need to pay bills and make profits too. GW is going to make money because they are making the product. Who cares how it is sold? Plus other costs, like shipping may not make it practical to buy online all the time, or the online seller sold out of a popular item. Sometimes I like to actually hold the item to see if I want to buy it. I play Sisters of Battle, and none of the GW stores carry them. I have to special order them anyway, and at full price? No thanks. I’ll go to Ebay and buy.
The problem is 100% derived from the company structure.
They have manufacture and retail arms.
Before eCommerce, independent trade accounts were no threat as they all had limited catchment areas. (In fact if you dig you will find that GW was the biggest threat to those independents)
eCommerce has no boundries (except artificially created ones like GW’s trade embargo outside of EU)
So every single online retailer sale is a competitor to either an independent store (so no real loss to GW) or a GW store (profit loss to GW) or to its own online store (again a profit loss to GW)
GW has over 50% of its sales tied to independents and the other 50% to its own stores, so any move it makes is going to hurt it.
So if you were going to go through some pain, would you…
a) Delay it and hope the market grows fast enough to keep you afloat
b) Bring the pain forward in the hope that when you have restructured and managed out’ online retailers’ you are instore for much higher profit sales. (But the growth of the market suffers in the interim)
Either way, it doesn’t look to me like the consumer wins unfortunately 🙁
Warzan, everyone knows that when you buy GW minis you are paying a premium partly to use GW hobby stores.
Would you agree that if you are living in an area where there are no GW hobby stores you are less likely to pay that premium and more likely to hunt for bargains? Look at your own experience in Northern Ireland. Someone living in the outskirts of Northern Ireland is surely more likely to buy something from Mantic compared to someone who lives in Belfast city centre?
Even if the damage to costs is purely structural would you agree that over the next 5-10 years the cost of GW figures (particularly core troops) could be increasingly damaging to the company. My favourite example is Avatars of War. Not only are their products cheaper, but also they are either better or just as good. For instance they have a very complete line of dwarfs which you cannot buy from GW. The Witch elves they are releasing are probably going to be almost as good as GW (judging by the photos). For somebody who does not live close to a GW store it then becomes difficult to justify the premium. But imagine how much more competition their will be in 5-10 years time.
Clearly, there are a lot of things that a lot of us would like to see change.
I predict that it will not.
At least not for a long time. GW will need to consistently fail in financial terms before things get shaken up. I hope, by then, it isn’t too late.
If anyone at GW is listening (ever the optimist), why not re-release Warhammer Quest? That would a recruitment surge in itself. I’d have me one of just about every fantasy box there is, so as to fill my dungeons…
You just can’t ignore or discount the fact that in many ways GW has mistreated a lot of their formerly loyal customers for a long time. Those people are gone and taking their friends with them, and they’re not walking away from the gaming hobby but instead moving onto other games. A large part of why GW games have been so successful is because of the wheel of popularity; when it is the most popular game in the local scene it becomes the game people most want to play. This keeps it as the most popular game in the local scene and that loops over and over despite losing some people here and there. Once you start to slide down that slope it takes effort to get it back and GW just wasn’t paying attention to that.
There are numerous examples.. the IP war years ago is still a huge black eye on their reputation. But I’ll give two examples that are less obvious but equally responsible:
1. Devlan Mud. Quite possibly the best shading wash ever made. I’ve been painting for 23 years and I think it’s the best ever, and many I’ve talked to with years of experience said the same. It was so good that I bought and used it even after I’d sworn off ANY GW products. They had a chance to get money from me despite my low opinion of them, but they threw it away. They discontinued it when they changed their lineup and didn’t make a direct replacement.
2. Gaming mats. Again one of the best products of it’s type ever produced. Another item that was popular and in demand from people outside of those that play their games, and they discontinued it.
As I said these are small examples but this is just a sample, of which there are many more cases where it appears that GW isn’t actually paying attention to or listening to their audience.
They were successful for many years beyond what I feel they should have been simply because of that popularity wheel, but they have lost that. Despite not liking their rules sets in about ten years I’ve played at least two games of each new version of WFB and 40k they’ve released since. Partially because I’m hoping that they will turn it around but mostly because for all of those years I didn’t have a lot of better options if I hoped to be able to get a game at the LGS on any given night. Today Warmachine is at least as popular and on many nights there are 2-3 times as many people playing that as 40k. I’ve seen WFB played exactly once at any LGS when I was present in the last year. Warmachine has leagues, tournaments, release events, and open gaming nights scheduled weekly with full support from PP. My WM habit is no longer a cheaper alternative to GW but I don’t care because I’m having a lot more fun there. And I think somewhere along the way GW forgot that people do this because they want to have fun.
I don’t think either of those products was actually produced by GW…
My tuppence worth (dunno how many GW shares that equates to :)) –
Does it not strike anyone as significant that so many of the new companies that are around feature staff who used to work for GW? Companies that are vibrant, turning out interesting games, reaching out to gamers of all sorts? And again, so many games designers that used to work for GW are creating many of the most engaging games around at present.
Lets face it: regardless of the amount of fluff behind your game, it is the game itself that counts first and foremost. Obviously historical gaming companies like Battlefront, Warlord and Plastic Soldier Company have the real history of the world to call upon as background, but it is the quality of their game, the rules and accessories, the playability and to some extent the engagement with their audience that allows them to be successful. Rolls Royce was often quoted as saying that their vehicles never broke down – they merely ‘failed to proceed’, but that feels too much like blowing your own trumpet loudly and ignoring the writing on the wall. Everyone is a consumer, has their own spending power and the ability to decide where, when and what to purchase. If GW sales are down, it may be that there are a range of factors (many already mentioned above) – economic downturn reducing disposable incomes, more competition within sci-fi and fantasy games plus losing potential customers to other forms of the gaming hobby such as historical and video-games; pricing – a perennial issue, and not tied to the physical store versus online store paradigm – when company A offers 10 figures for £25 and company B can offer 30 figures for £25 at the same scale for a different game but both are the same hard plastic, one has to wonder what is going on. Online retailers may offer these at discount but then all discounted prices are ultimately based on what the original RRP started at.
I only have any current interest in the Middle-earth minis that GW have the licence for. Warhammer was something I played a very long time ago, then the epic scale Titan Legions, Space Marine and all the supplements before getting into WH40K when 2nd and 3rd editions were on the go. I actually have spent far more time of late (and cash) on Flames of War, PSC, Dreadball, Deadzone, Aliens Vs Predators, Bolt Action and X-Wing, and I am enjoying all of them for a variety of reasons. All or most of that would formerly have been spent on some WH40K and LotR/Hobbit minis.
Here is a spin on the latest share drop, although a completely speculative spin on the situation from a close friend:
‘GW has planned this for 2 years.
### ##### put 26 million in his back pocket after The Lord of the rings from the stockmarket value increase of GW shares..
GW have now been in talks with Disney for six months.
How much money do you think they will make out of a Star War franchise game?
I highly expect to see a future press release akin to “due to the World market down turn” “myself & the board will be reinvesting into GW PLC to ensure the companies future!”
Share holders panic ditch their shares, he and the board snap them up at £1:50 to £2:00 a share then 3 months down the road they make public: “We are in talks with Disney to make Star Wars games!!! GW shares go through the roof again.
Cha-chingo for the senior management”
I really cannot see Disney even noticing a company like GW on it’s radar for purchase, but GW did land the deal for LotR range of miniatures and battle system, so it’s not completely unfeasible. Fantasy Flight Games already make some extremely good quality miniatures and card games for the Star Wars universe fans. FFG also make officially licensed Board games, card games and RPGs for GW Warhammer and 40k fans – There is a shaky link between SW licensing to FFG, and GW licensing to FFG. Perhaps it’s not so difficult to imagine GW following up their LotR golden days by trying a hand at another of the biggest money makers in entertainment. Having said which I know nothing about large corporate finance, IP licensing, the stock exchange or anything that goes on behind closed doors at GW HQ, Disney or FFG.
Believe it or not, GW were approached about doing a line of Star Wars minis back in the 80’s. They weren’t keen on the idea so sculpted up a stormtrooper in the Citadel style to show them what they’d do to the minis if they made them. There’s photos of it kicking about online.
I also don’t think Disney would buy GW. It hardly promises the same returns as Star Wars or Marvel. A large toy manufacturer might do though.
Interesting – would someone like Matel buying GW make things better or worse? Would prices come down? Would quality go down with it?
If anyone was to buy it could see whoever currently owns wizards being among the candidates – cannot recall off the top of my head.
Hasbro own WotC and I could see them making a bid for GW.
Hey Warren,
I’m wondering if you have considered what the gaming scene, what the hobby would look like if GW imploded. Like, imagine tomorrow they sell the company and the receiver decides to shut down production and sell-off the assets but hold the publishing and property rights – lots of 40k models still floating around but nothing new from GW and no one can pick up where they left off… I’m really curious what you think the hobby would look like – how the next 5 years would go and perhaps the next 10?
I’m not Warren and have never played him on TV, but I’m still going to answer the question anyway lol. IMO, if GW stopped trading now, a lot of people currently in the hobby would leave and many who would otherwise have joined the hobby in the future will not do so. We’d be the a rump of what we are now. Furthermore, one of the main centres of nuturing talent and innovating technology would disappear. Many of the companies around now that compete with GW are owned by and/or hire former GW employees to produce their product. With that production line cut off and a far smaller consumer base, the hobby would suffer and turn even more fans away. The hobby would never die, but it would be seriously reduced.
Cheers for the reply, should have made that an open question.
Can I ask for a follow-up? 🙂 You mentioned technology, I’m fairly ignorant about how to produce minis, to the best of anyone’s knowledge has GW changed standards or created new methods or just as a general rule they have forced innovation by being so big? really curious about that
At one time practically every new thing that GW did was innovative as they were the only game in town. That’s obviously no longer the case and the wider the industry gets, the less it relies on GW to innovate. GW are currently leading the way in digital products (whether the content is any good is another matter) and in producing plastic kits.
@redben is along the same thinking as me on this.
GW has really pushed the technology aspects of the industry in all areas from designing the products using haptic feedback 3d tools, to computer aided manufacture, to computer controlled casting. Heck even their European distribution center is state of the art.
But more importantly is the people they train, and the ones that come out the other end and go to other parts of the industry add a huge amount of value.
The industry as it is today, would struggle to overcome the loss of GW… itw would survive no doubt, but i suspect it would add another 2 years to the development of the industry (at least)
That being said, a defunct GW would unleash an enormous amount of talent into the market place, that (provided we had adequate investors) could in fact change that scenario greatly – for the better, and may in fact fast track the industry to new levels.
But that’s quite a risk to take…
I’m not as optimistic on you on that last point. I think the strength of GW is the brand rather than the individual talent, and that much of the consumer base would go away when the brand went away, rather than follow the talent.
It is true, that consumers don’t migrate the way people think they do. Most in fact just disappear when their channel that they buy from ceases to exist.
The same is very highly likely to be true of this scenario.
I’m very interested in what would happen and I’m almost completely clueless; on one hand, a market hates a vaccuum…but then would the market dry up? I’d like to believe that a company like Mantic would fill the gaps with cheap miniatures, that all these kickstarters with 3D printers would start making big-paulderon space soldiers called marines, that people would say – oh wow, Infinity is amazing! and play that… but then I ask myself if GW has been right all this time – online sales kill brick and mortar play spaces – and even beyond that argument – brick and mortar play space is expensive – 3-4 tables accommidate only 8 players which does not a customer base make… no one playing in public translates into less new players…. I am an optimist when it comes to innovation so I hope for Warren’s ideal scenario but I would fear for the rationality of redben’s prediction – absolutely fascinating to ponder though! Cheers!
The death of the Japanese MMA promotion PRIDE FC, and the US pro-wrestling promotion WCW, are both excellent examples of how consumers in niche markets with dominant brands follow the brand and not the talent.
This assumes that new recruitment for customers into the hobby can’t make up for the loss. When GW was the primary source of new recruitment, I would concede that point. I don’t think they are anymore. We’ve spoken about regional differences in the past, so I’ll leave off the YMMV disclaimers, but in my experience most new hobby gamers are coming in through warmahordes, Magic or high profile kickstarter campaigns.
I would agree that many existing gamers would just quit if GW were to fail (which they’re not even close to doing at this point). But I think we could recover in a year or two with a combination of Privateer Press, WoTC and well-run kickstarters from the talent that they would expel out into the industry.
Fantasy Flight could be poised to make a big mark as well if they can get their supply chain issues worked out (big if). If they could just work out their production issues, Wings of Glory, X-wing and DUST could make them a behemoth, but they couldn’t juggle all of those balls simultaneously and ended up selling off two very promising game lines (admittedly the WoW line set backs are as much Nexus’ fault as FF’s). Battlefront might be in a good position to run with DUST, but Ares is clearly struggling with production issues similar to what FF dealt with (which is sad because I absolutely love Sails of Glory and Wings of Glory). Wings of Glory starters have been out of stock for months now.
Take away the largest competitor (the same one that bullies local stores into devoting half of their shelf space to GW product), and you could see major shift in player recruitment. There are several companies currently in GW’s shadow that could really make a dent if they could get some breathing room. They may get the chance anyway if GW’s market share continues to fall. Because overall sales for the industry are up. GW’s falling sales indicate a decrease in market share for them, not the end of gaming as a whole. The more their market share decreases the smaller the impact of a GW collapse becomes. And GW isn’t going out of business any time soon (if at all). So their market share will almost certainly continue decreasing before their collapse would actually become an issue.
Player recruitment is a slightly different issue. The current player base who play GW games either exclusively or almost exclusively, who do comprise a significant proportion of the overall base, would in the main not migrate to anything else. The recruitment issue would depend on just how great a proportion of recruitment currently comes via GW as the bulk of that recruitment would be lost.
“The recruitment issue would depend on just how great a proportion of recruitment currently comes via GW as the bulk of that recruitment would be lost.”
I don’t see why the bulk of that recruitment would be lost. When talking about new recruitment we can rule out questions of loyalty because none has yet developed. Recruitment at GW stores would certainly be lost, but recruitment into the line that normally occurs at independent stores (which, in my country, is most of it because GW stores make up a much smaller percentage of the overall retail chain) could easily be redirected to other companies and lines. As I’ve said in previous discussions about GW’s retail tactics, many of the stores I have personal experience with are already trying to push other lines as their primary source of new customer recruitment. I would only expect that to become more common as GW’s overall market share continues to decline.
There’s a lot going in terms of what is meant by recruitment via GW. Certainly recruitment by GW stores would count and we both agree that many of those potential players will be lost. You rightly point out that per capita, the US has far fewer stores than the UK, and that LGS pick up much of that slack. The UK market generates 80% of the revenue that the US does for GW, despite having little over 20% of the population of the US. Actually looking at revenue gained in relation to the number of stores in each country, the numbers aren’t that different, suggesting that the US LGSs are not that effective in picking up the slack (though this is obviously not conclusive proof), and that the loss of GW would be far more devastating to consumer recruitment to wargaming in the UK than the US.
In terms of recruitment to GW via LGS, this is much harder to pin down. Do LGSs recruit players to GW, or to mini-gaming in general even if the game is a GW game? To what extent do sales of GW product prop up the LGSs and how many would go if GW went away? In terms of stores already diversifying in the recruitment, we can discount those as recruiting the hobby via GW.
“To what extent do sales of GW product prop up the LGSs and how many would go if GW went away? In terms of stores already diversifying in the recruitment, we can discount those as recruiting the hobby via GW.”
Fair questions. I can give you only anecdotal evidence (so, speculative obviously). In the US, Wizards of the Coast keeps most game stores open. Magic is our 40k. It’s a game that encourages constant spending too (even more so than GW does), which makes it a good revenue driver if you can establish a community of players. Pretty much every game store (in various states) I’ve seen in the last five years is being propped up by Magic more than anything else.
So losing GW would certainly cause problems for LGSes in North America, but it wouldn’t necessarily close many doors. As for recruitment in to the minis hobby, it generally depends on the owner. Most store owners sell Magic to stay in business, and promote whatever mini games they most enjoy playing themselves. Sometimes that’s GW product, often times it’s not. If there are any clear winners beside GW in this race for store owners’ hearts and minds, they would probably be Warmahordes and Flames of War, though X-Wing has gained a surprisingly large base of support in the short time it’s been around (and FF’s sales figures support this assertion, but no one knows if it’s sustainable long-term).
This increased diversity in the landscape of the US LGS could explain why we account for such a smaller share of GW’s overall sales compared to the UK. And it could also explain why fewer American gamers are freaking out over a possible GW collapse. I’d hate to see the hobby balkanized by regions, but I think a diverse ecosystem of product lines is more stable than over-relying on one gargantuan producer whose waxing and waning fortunes could tip the whole industry over.
But hey, the hobby will live on, even if it’s not as popular. Clubs will continue to exist. Online retail will always make niche products available (though I would prefer to keep a couple LGSes in my area). 3D printing, digital distribution of rules/sourcebooks and open communities can pick up the slack and keep those of who refuse to quit happy. I’m not worried really at all. Regardless of the industry, I’ll still play games. I’ll still find others to play them with. They’ll just be different games.
I’ve never personally tied the fate of the hobby to the fate of the industry. This was a hobby for decades before there was any real “industry” involved. (A couple of vanity press books by HG Wells do not count as an industry.) And there’s always kickstarter (though I foresee crowdsourcing regulation happening someday. There’s too much unaccounted-for tax revenue on the table for government to ignore it forever).
This discussion makes me wish there was in industry body who tracked the marketing figures for the hobby; conducted surveys on what games people played and where they started – anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that more people are coming in from and going to alternate games (my own experience included) – people come into shops saying ‘what do you need to play infinity’ or does anyone play warmachine – which is a big change from several years ago – but in the end what matters is do they buy? do they stay? do they gravitate to GW? Anyways, this is a really interesting discussion – obviously GW isn’t going to blink out of existence anytime soon, but I am really enjoying the dialogue!
@apocryphal
There are, sort of. The Game Manufacturer’s Association (http://gama.org) is a non-profit trade association for game makers. They took over the Origins convention. They collect sales and distribution numbers from affiliated distributors and retailers, but the numbers are incomplete because a lot of independents don’t see how reporting would benefit them (short-sighted).
Then there’s the Professional Games Store Association (http://progamestores.org/), newly formed that is attempting to be exactly what you’re asking for. Their unfinished website is not terribly promising.
There are a couple others (pretty sure there’s an org tracking distribution in North America). I’m sure there’s a European equivalent. There’s no way you can have something like Spiel de Essen every year and not have someone keeping track of the industry that makes it possible.
Problem is that most of their reports are only available to members (companies), so we have to guess based on what little public data is made available.
It would certainly be desirable if the overall revenue currently being generated by the industry was more evenly distributed. That way the loss of any one company would have no great impact. There was an industry before GW, but it was tiny and almost completely dominated by historical games, not a situation I would want to return (and not one I think we’d return to either). I’m not a doom-mongerer, but I am realistic enough not to think that if GW went away right now that it wouldn’t negatively impact the industry overall. My personal wish is that it diversifies over time, and that if we can’t have a bigger pie (which would be ideal), then for GW’s portion of the pie to be a little smaller.
As a side-note to the revenue generated by North America compared to the number of stores, both of which are comparable to the UK, then it raises two potential situations. Either the similarity is because the bulk of revenue is driven by the GW stores, in which the LGSs in North America don’t do a lot for GW and they’d be better off expanding their line of stores and not bothering building much of a relationship with the LGSs. Or the LGSs do generate a lot of revenue, picking up the slack in areas in which GW don’t have a presence. In which GW would be best served scaling back their chain and working a lot more with the LGSs. I have no idea which one it is, but presumably GW do and would be acting accordingly.
“I have no idea which one it is, but presumably GW do and would be acting accordingly.”
That’s the confusing bit. GW sends mixed signals, and I’m not sure they actually have a coherent retail strategy in North America. I’ve seen independents flourish with near wholesaler discounts on their stock, and I’ve seen independents forced out of business by blatantly predatory expansions of GW retail stores into their region. And I’ve seen both happen in the same cities within a couple years of each other (their strategy before, during and after the ’08 recession changed dramatically and could best be described as “predatory”).
If GW has data that helps them decide how to deal with independents in the US, their tactics on the ground give us no clues as to what that data tells them. Because they can’t seem to make up their minds except to try their damnedest to stifle online wholesalers. That’s the one constant in their US strategy, but it benefits their own stores as much as (if not more than) it benefits independents.
I think the one thing that is clear to independents out here: Don’t trust GW to be friendly for long. They change their minds at the drop of a hat. So even if they are being supportive of LGSes now, they’re not a reliable long-term business partner.
Do you not think that a lot of the most profitable elements of GW would be redistributed in Bankruptcy? Given the sales that GW makes it seems unlikely they would just disappear.
I can imagine a scaled down GW having far fewer stores, fewer armies etc.
Bankruptcy is sometimes the fastest way for a company to change its strategy and do the things which it needs to do.
Obviously the company that was left behind would be a lot more like other internet companies and would not have that presence that they used to have.
There’s no reason to even talk about bankruptcy right now. GW’s revenues have dipped. Their market share is decreasing. Their stock value took a little tumble. They’re not even remotely close to going bankrupt or selling things off.
The stock value decrease, more than anything, simply reflects that GW has achieved a certain degree of market saturation (in the eyes of their shareholders). They have little room left to grow, and shareholders are primarily interested in growth. Lots of very successful companies have done just fine after reaching similar saturation points and losing a large chunk of their stock value (Starbucks, for instance). The sell off represents investors who bought their shares at a lower value a long time ago cashing out for the highest profit they think they’re going to get. It’s not a sign that the company is doomed or that the sky is caving in.
It’s mostly just a sign that this industry has grown larger than the one big company that used to define it. If the industry were to diversify and the market were to expand to allow other competitors to successfully enter it, then this turn of events for GW would be pretty much inevitable. Stock value doesn’t represent what most people think it does. It’s mostly a reflection of growth potential, not long term stability. GW’s stock could fall another 25% before, and then another 25% after that and we still wouldn’t necessarily be talking about company failure (though we would certainly be getting closer).
I think if GW died, the community would buck up and start supporting the game like GW should be doing.
Our club is already writing our own rules because GW has proven time and again they can’t create a coherent ruleset.
If GW died, the only thing that would happen is the minis would fluctuate in value, but most of them wouldn’t appreciate in value.
That’s their fault, the result of the choices they made. Very few people would actually miss them.
If there were even remotest rumours of a buyout the share price would be skyrocketing.
These are the sorts of developments that don’t get leaked. You can’t develop new codexes, minis, etc. without lots of staff knowing about it (and someone leaking it to Warseer).
Takeovers and suchlike are several orders of magnitude more hush-hush.
Actually, as soon as takeover talks start a formal announcement has to be made to the city which is then published.
I dont want to see GW fail although I cant afford there models does not mean they are a bad company (I feel). I still want GW around, they do some remarkable products and there design of games and figures is amazing. I hope you survive GW you were the first company I went to when I was 15 with pocket money Im now 38. Come on GW survive please one day I might be able afford you again 🙂
This sentiment is the same one that created the government bailouts.
Let them crash and burn, and perhaps something new will rise from the ashes.
I pop into my local GW from time to time, mostly because the guy who runs it is friendly and helpful when it comes to painting and modelling advice. I usually try and buy something when I go in but I find it harder and harder to find something that I feel happy spending my money on. The models, the thing that should really be driving GW’s sales are dull and insipid (in my opinion) and just don’t inspire me at all.
I see what other companies are producing, even Mantic seem to be upping their game, and then I look at what the manufacturer of the “Best toy soldiers in the world” is putting out, there really is no comparison, GW are lagging a long way behind in terms of inspiration, creativity and execution.
Other companies may not be a threat to GW yet but as more and more people get fed up with being charged a premium for an increasingly lacklustre product these new companies will grow and flourish, GW will be around for a long time but they will find themselves increasingly becoming a shrinking fish in a rapidly growing pond.
You saw the Centurions, right?
Yeah. GW = fail.
Well this is going to be a curly one, every one will have their ideas from the hardcore fans to those of us that have moved to other games. My own thoughts would be that GW should have their full range mad available to all retailers then create a specific range of high end minis that only they will sell. now i can see why they want to keep sales of say hero blisters and such in house as we all need them but if they were to do even that for a set period on some of the minis in the ranges to get back the design and production costs of new lines it would make very good business seance, yes that screws online retailers for the big hit that comes from a new range of minis but with GW being the ones who are creating the minis and having the outlay for bringing them to market i dont really think it would be that unfair. if we look at the medical drugs industry we see that when a new type of drug hits the market the company that has made it is given a set period of time to make back the cost of the research and development this i would think would work well for GW im not saying after a time that anybody could make their minis but that that any one can buy them from GW and sell them. just my thoughts i could be way off but there you are.
Wasn’t that the idea behind Forge World?
Now they are pretty much folding that back into the works.
I worked for GW in what I consider the glory days – ’99 – 2004. I also was not just a retail or trade guy. I know how much margin GW has and I know how and why they do a lot of the things they do.
Back then they were still the gamers that started the company and were not real great at approaching the business as a business – but the company was still fun, did crazy things and while inefficient and failing to approach their brand in a total top down format – loved what they did as a entity. They have always been and will likely always be a manufacturing (studio is part of manufacturing for this purpose) driven company rather than marketing driven. That way of thinking has been gone for a long time in the bigger business world and was always one of my biggest issues. I always felt that GW made what they wanted and the customer could like it or not at the price and method it was given. I still believe the approach should be more inclusive and while not customer run – customer desires and the market’s demand should drive.
In recent years you have quitely seen the old guard leave. A lot of you don’t even know who these people where but for every Andy Chambers and Alessio and Ricky P there was a dozen people who loved the hobby and had been around since the 80s. These are almost all gone and the manufacturing, operations bean counters are fully in charge.
What has always made GW succeed despite itself has been a very real passion for the hobby and a lot of energy to share and excite the community about that hobby. Aspirational stores and events, tournaments and crazy staff events that made people on the outside so desire to be a part. They no longer spend capital on that. Cut, control and ignore the new world of immersive online communities as well as the demand for a real organzized play tournament structure. I’m old school – and have been playing GW for 30 years so while I could care less about tournaments I see a gravy train and demand out there.
I can honestly say I don’t see it changing and that is a shame. Not this year or next but in the mid future GW will drop low enough that someone will start to buy them. Maybe all at once or maybe slowly – but once they are bought it will be Hasboro/ Wizards all over again. IP much more worth it than the core business – movies, cartoons, tv series, action figures etc. and at best the miniature business will be a small diversion that is allowed to float along into model train area.
Those of you celebrating this and high fiving a potential end to the big evil that has been such a powerhouse in the last 20 years – hold your victory speeches. There is no one to fill the gap. A lot of local stores need GW to pay the rent because it is steady and not released based. A lot of people find their way into the broader world of gaming and specifically miniatures through GW. While it isn’t gloom and doom and the end of the gaming world it would change the dynamic forever.
I pray the old guard come out of semi retirement and kick down the doors and start to righten the ship. 75% of my life has involved GW on some level and I for one would sorely miss it.
I honestly don’t think we appreciate how much GW are responsible for proping up the hobby. Loving to hate them is just the done thing but I’m not sure any of us could ever really imaging a gaming world without them. I know I don’t really understand what would happen if they disappear and it’s not something I want to consider.
I dunno what will happen. I still buy a bit but no where near as much as I used to. I try and buy it through my FLGS to support because, as wizardlizard said, GW pays the rent of most of them. I really don’t know think be are prepared for them to disappear
However, without GW war gamers are still going to war game. Vacuums will be filled – and maybe not by one company but by many. Indies need them now as that what a sizable chunk of the market plays – if its not being played something else will. Not that I can see GW failing totally – which could be more toxic that a complete collapse in some ways.
That’s patently wrong.
Anti-GW sentiment is brewing in the community, and my club has been helping that sentiment along by introducing FoW and Warmachine to folks in our community.
Flames of War and Warmachine will fill the gap, if not Mantic, Warlord or literally ANY OTHER GAME COMPANY OUT THERE.
Get a grip. Down with GW.
First off the sales of all the companies you mention are in total less than just core 40k product alone. The companies are great and I am excited there are so many choices out there for players – but none of them are even close to being able to provide the product, sustainability or customer base that GW does.
Secondly – Mantic and Warlord are literally made up of ex GW’s not just a few I mean almost all of the decision makers. Their plans and views are what GW’s were 15 years ago – just no retail chain plans to support it.
I agree that if GW went under, there would be those who will leave the hobby altogether. GW have been a foreunner in terms of manufacturing technology. I don’t think the loss of GW would set the industry back, but the hobby would shrink in size considerably and it would take a few years to turn itself back around. Plus the loss of GW would considerably damage its licensed partners such as FFG who invesred so much in the IP with some superb board and card games.
I think talk of GW going under right now is a bit premature however, but they need to be careful and accept their place in the hobby is going to be a lot smaller from now on. Lowering their prices would be a good place to start.
Also think about what they are going to do after The Hobbit. When the LOtR trilogy finished GW sales did go down. This is likely to happen again. GW should put more time into the design studio now and come up with a plan. Revisiting the Specialist Games might be an idea, albeit we would have to accept the range would be smaller. If I was in GW’s shoes, I would right now pick the 3 more popular specialist games and put plans in place for a revival and revision of them.
As for a 40K/WFB skirmish game, I don’t really see that happening, unless done as an expansion book and not a new game. The Kill Team variant could easily be made into an expansion for 40K. One far out idea would be bring FW back into GW, and then Horus Heresy could become the new 3rd “core” game when LOtR and the Hobbit are done.
GW will still be around for now, but tread carefully.
The net result of all this is a drop in sales and profit. But when you consider the alternative (boom and bust), perhaps this is all part of the strategy.
It seems to me that boom and bust is exactly what GW tried to do and failed. This is just one more failure to add to the pile. I feel GW had a good position in the mini war game world.
1 It was the gateway game for many of the war gamers I know (myself as well). The game had good models at a reasonable price and was easy to learn. Also everyone had heard or played it so getting in a game wasn’t an issue. However now there are many games that offer the same gateway game as GW once did.
2 Helpful staff (most of the time) at the local stores. Now stores are closing left and right and the ones left only have one person there. One person can’t do everything at once.
3 Price was in line with the rest of the game systems. Now they are one of the most expensive game to get into. Most other games starting boxes give you 2 good sized armies with full rules for the price of 1 army or in some cases less than 1 army of the same size.
4 Personally GW games have gotten stale. I remember getting bored with armies very quickly in both 40K and Fantasy because it was more or less the same setup and game every time no matter who I played. This was after buying some of the “harder” to learn armies.
In the US it seemed that GW was just trying to get as much capital as it could as fast as it could and not really looking to what it’s future was going to be. All in all in my opinion GW used to be a company that I had no reservations about promoting to new war gamers. However with all the different (in my opinion) better and less expensive games I just can’t tell people that GW is the place to start anymore.
Our club actively directs new gamers away from GW.
If we did this more as a community instead of just accepting the repeated beatings, maybe the GW heads wouldn’t be so removed from reality.
Wow, even though they killed over half of their store employees. Even though there was a major Space Marine release with codex. even though they desperately threw supllements and faction codices onto the market.
They must be hurting badly. But they broke their buiseness themselves, how can you expect to trample over your fanbase without any consequences.
There is a very sharp and insightful analysis of GW downgoing everyone should read on masterninis :
http://masterminis.blogspot.de/
Seems they ran the boat on ground.
In my opinion, GW is missing a big point. They should add more games to their belt.
They should have carry one doing board games, like BloodBowl, Man o War, Warhammer Quest, etc…. with a yearly release at the very least.
They would not need to support the game as much as Warhammer or 40K, they could live on their own for a while. Just adding some expansions over time.
Now they have what they call skirmish game, but if you want to play a game, it takes you lots of money and time to be ready…. or play with unpainted plastic minis…. which is actually the norm now.
What happened to the hobby?
When you release an army a month, you create a ‘need’ to buy the shiny new thing, with the killer rule book that comes with it. 2 months later, your army is out of date, because the brand new race is about to be released.
They should break their release more even through the year. It is even more enjoyable as a player to know that more is coming.
I have completely stop playing GW games now, for over a year, I sold most of my unpainted minis and havent been pleasantly surprise with anything coming from GW for a loooong time. (I include the stores policy and their employees as well).
GW destroyed community spirit, broke the relationship between employees and customers and was terrible with its online community as well.
They deserve the 25% drop, I do hope they will come back, because 20 years ago, I remember that GW was a great company with amazing games.
There stuff just got too expensive. I’ve been playing for decades, but it’s been years since I bought anything from GW direct – I prefer metal to plastic (or the utterly sh*te ‘finecast’) so its lots of cheap(ish) metal minis from eBay for me)
The thread keeps calling them GW stores, and that’s the problem. They use to be “Hobby Centres” that created and engaged with the core customer base and in doing so created loyalty that resulted in customers buying in-store. What went wrong?
1. They stopped stocking most of the range in-store. Instead they actively encouraged their own customers to go online to order using the store kiosk, pay in-store then come back at a later date to collect it from the store. Useful for launch pre-orders, but for old stock? Before long customers thought “why not order online from home, pay on-line and have it delivered home?”
2. They discouraged their mature audience from coming in store at weekends (when those that work to earn the disposable income are usually available to) thereby losing the loyalty. Fine – had they got their digital strategy right first and created online communities and tools. Why not an official online army list tool that let you add a new unit and order it there and then?
3. They put their prices up excessively. I remember when someone would say “I fancy trying that army!” spending £100-£150 on big box, HQs, accessories and Codex/Army Book and coming back a week later with a legal, playable army. How much now… £200-£250? That’s a lot of pester power for their new young customer base in this day and age. Established gamers who’d already started ordering online ordered from cheaper sources.
They weren’t hobby centres back when I started in the mid-80’s. They were just stores.
There clearly is a market for guys pushing around plastics. And most of them are quite nice, sociable and want to interact with each other through forums and whatnot.
Just read the torrent of comments above, no nerdy stereotype around.
For me, they dropped the ball when they unleashed lawyers unto MiniWargaming and BoW. I will never see how a couple of beardy guys with a podcast be a threat to them, even if they were reading out loud a not-yet-produced codex. Before everyone starts screaming that it would sabotage sales, I would argue the contrary.
If it was a decent codex, and a week or so before release things leaked out, everybody would lap it up and crowd the stores.
But if the codex is crap, you might sell it because you stopped the leakage, but the forums would scream that the codex sucks. So you sold a codex, but you p*ssed off your audience.
I have to deal with liability and lawyers at work every day, and don’t need it in my Escape from Soul Sucking Job at night.
Basically, GW is the most obnoxious company I have ever come across. Ofcourse the grunts in the shops are decent guys and girls, but what a job they have.
I really think that MWG and BoW should have simply dropped GW, rather than bowing to the pressure.
I lost respect for GW those days, but even more for the community guys who simply bowed their heads and said “okay….”
Down with GW! You are the change you want! There are no miracles!
Here I disagree. What people think about a codex (army wise) is irrelevant. Some people will always complain because they have to think and adapt game wise.
Those discussing the content of the codex – the artwork, the copy pasted text – those do have a point and that has remained static yet the price has increased dramatically.
The changes to White Dwarf are obviously an attempt to deal with the leaks – if they are not, GW are daft.
Dropping law suits on groups promoting their products is hilarious in it’s stupidity. Doing so on a group with such a following, such obvious passion and interest as Beasts of War is nigh on moronic. Heck, if I hadn’t found BoW I probably wouldn’t have bothered getting back into the hobby at all.
My first thought when I read the interim report this morning was that it would be seen as more attractive to prospective investors. The share price is now at more attractive level after the highs of the last 4 years and maybe they are looking for some investment.
It’s stll a pretty sound company and apart from leases it has no real debt.
Isnt this just a case of too much info. We have no idea what the books of other wargames companies look like. With no basis for comparison how do we make any judgements? Things cpuld look much worse at other companies and we would never know…
Only if you never visit a game store, never see gamers that play anything but GW games, and you deliberately put your head as far into the hole that GW dug for it you never know the difference.
That’s very sad.
Look at Privateer Press or Battlefront – that’s all you have to do to realize how hard GW is swindling the fan base.
Well you can as you can always pull their accounts if your so inclined. What you can’t do is draw a comparison between them as GW are pretty unique.
Not read the follow on discussion, so apologies if I miss anything – but I couldn’t disagree more.
Sustainable business is aided by maintaining and growing your customer base – refusal to interact, increasingly shoddy service, and an approach that has reduced the stable long term customer base is counter to that end. Oh course you can change your customer base, but high turn over, low retention customers are never ideal for retail. Too subject to fickle market changes.
Interaction with independent retailers – being a distributor and retail is always a tricky position as you are inherently placing your self in competition with your business partners. However, there are a number of independents that recruit and sustain sales games workshop stores cannot currently reach – due to alienation of the customer base, reduced staff removing events etc. Meaning they are a plus to GW. Did they have to tackle the massive online discounting – yes of course, did they create the problem – yes so lets not blame the retailers alone here. A result of allowing the problem to develop was then there was the inevitable bad PR that went with it.
Did they have to tackle brick and mortar retailers, possibly but only because of the direction taken by the retail chain (When I worked for them as a second job to buy my toys – we had minimal competition from local retailers even with discounted prices), did they have to apply the current trade conditions no, its not stopped the discounts only reduced the number of stockists or those that actively prompt their product. While I won’t question retail needed tightening up, they missed the chance to really reduce overheads by reducing stores and building up independent sales – shifts a huge chunk of the cost out of the business while maintain sales. So why do it? Unless you want to eliminate competition – but the trouble is its not competition as that where your customers who cannot stand you buy the new shiny, retail approach shop – take it away and you lose their business.
Add in when you turn a design studio into a promo department for sales you have fundamentally lost your way. When your IP is your ace in the whole and you start trading that for an excuse for big kits and the hope of more sales you have now screwed up the map
Finally, lets not beat around the bush the prices rises have been designed to drive one thing – high share prices. Profit is necessary to grow, but your not growing the company by paying massive dividends. It’s price gouging pure and simple, which if it works is not inherently bad from a business point of view – unless you hit that snapping point where you price yourself out of the market. I believe that is what we are seeing now.
So in summary while I will agree some steps are necessary, they are in part to blame for some of those necessities. Has some of the unpopular decisions been to the betterment of the company – yes but lack of market understanding has meant they have been pushed too far.
So how do they come back, in truth I am not sure. Drastic knee jerk changes could kill those parts of the long term plan that are working, no change things will get tough and that bites a listed company – (Worth noting investment funds got out over the last two quarters they could see this was not sustainable). What is need is well considered strategies that will build that core base up, try to stablise prices to bring them under that snapping point (very difficult to implement with out the desperation sign of mass prices drops) but honestly I think they are so far disconnected from the customer base and have permanently lost a sizable percentage they will struggle to do it reliably.
Do I want to see them fail, no but I can foresee an long painful road ahead and dread some ill-advised choices.
Hi folks.
Perhaps I should have said GW were ignoring ‘previous customer groups’.Rather than ‘potential customers’.
When the Studio were in charge of game development at GW. There was a wider range of games, to suit a wide range of gamers and collectors.
And there was decent two way communication between the customers and GW studio.
So we felt like part of the whole global GW hobby, of making and collecting cool stuff to play amazing games with.
Then after GW became a PLC, a slow and steady change happened.As Tom Kirby decided what the best path for GW was.
However , as Warren pointed out GW do not have a marketing department.
GW plc corporate management do not think they need to find out who buys what and why.
They just make assumptions about their customer base, that they use to back up their business decisions.
‘..we are in the business of selling toy soldiers to children..’
‘.. GW customers hobby is buying GW product..’
‘.. we understand our collectors and meet their requirements..’
‘..our customers are price insensitive..’
When actually they have NOT GOT A CLUE, who their customers actually are or their buying habits.
They have decided they do not need to have any interaction with customers other than taking money off them.
Before the internet became the most cost effective retail option. GW plc had inherited a chain of B&M stores.These were HOBBY stores with reasonable staffing levels offering lots of help and support to new customers.These were a great recruiting tool in high density population countries like the UK.
However,the change in retail after the internet took off was very significant.
GW plc simply chose to ignore it!
Rather than embrace change and work with the internet and independent retailers to maximize the economies of scale , so the higher volume of sales would allow GW to minimize costs.(And generate more profit , to allow GW to subsidize its B&M Hobby centers.)
Which could have maintained GW plc sales volumes , reducing the need for constant price rises over the rate of inflation.
However, rather than looking at DOUBLING its market share through co-operation with independent retailers and the internet.(Getting 30% profit form all outlets even their own stores,)
GW plc decided to try to get ALL trade through its own stores and web site to get 50% profit.
First they put independent retailers out of business,by opening GW B&M stores in direct competition if interest grew above a set point in an area.
Then they hampered Internet retailers,used a trade embargo , rather than adjust regional pricing to more sane levels.And generally went round threatening their potential partners and promoters with legal action for mentioning GW products.
And so this greed , for want of a better word, has cost GW appx 60% of their market share.
I would like GW plc to be run by people who care about their customers,and want to grow their customer base by offering good value for money and two way communication.
Like how Ronnie runs Mantic Games…
Last Sunday a chum rings me up. Tells me we have a Leman Russ for £20. No brainer. Have they got two, I ask.
You see, £31 for one is too much but £40 for two isn’t. Now if I could go into Games Workshop nearby and say “I want two Baneblades” (because I am a berk) and I want them for £140 they would probably apologise profusely and offer me something else. So I walk out and get them from somewhere on line. Games Workshop still make a hefty profit, the retailer makes a profit but GW makes the retailer wait, which makes me wait but I really don’t care. Games Workshop lost out because they’re greedy.
Same with codices. I really, really want to swear here. I remember when they were £10. I bought codex Blood Angels for £15. The next one was £20. Then Hardbacks are £30 and they do NOT cost that much to write even accounting for salaries and overheads. My army, Daemons is mostly copy and paste. I’m sorry, it breaks my heart to say it. Skarbrand is lifted word for word. OK, his fluff hasn’t changed, but there’s about 3 pieces of new artwork. That’s sad. It’s just repackaging and I, being a pillock buy every codex. Then I spend £70 on the Heresy books and brace myself for codex level effort and bloody hell (sorry younger readers) these are stunning. Two and a half times the content. A whole campaign. beautiful posing that must have taken hours in photoshop and cameras. Fluff to die for a real pleasure and lo, I feel that I am not being had.
I’ve been playing 40K since Rogue Trader. I’ve the Lost and the Damned books and the art in there, the ideas are stunning – what the flip happened to that? Those books cost me £15 each. Well, my parents did as I was 12 and Mum thought I was going to be a devil worshipper.
Amongst the waffle, the value to cost is wrong. The Valkyrie has gone up in price but there was no conversion kit, just a slapped price hike. Same for the Russ, Chimera and so forth. I, as a 30 odd year old fellow am feeling mocked and laughed at by a company I support through owning a bit of it and buying their products. I worry about younger players coming in and older ones simply turning away when a box of space marines costs as much as a tank of petrol. The debacle of Finecast, the copy and paste of the ‘new’ codices – perhaps it’s the rate of release? Maybe they really cannot win? It adds up to an unhappy gamer.
Even buying GW on line I seem to wait up to three months for my stuff to arrive. Perhaps I’m too docile. Perhaps I’m an idiot. I am hugely generous with the process but still, it is obvious games Workshop are deliberately holding everyone up to suit themselves. Good business or just plain arrogance?
The stock price fell. It’ll go back up after hefty price increases again. Then the next release will show fewer sales yet again and the price will go up *again*. It’s unsustainable. Eventually those with the money will spend it on something more important than toy soldiers and those with children will suggest a cheaper hobby – such as F1 racing.
I apologise for the length of this post. Summary: Games Workshop management are greedy piglets who are destroying their own business.
Hmm.. to me its very simple. Warhammer is not fotball nor Icehockey (from im from).
So what is the primery focus….get more gamers…right?
So how do we do that? As i have seen there have been super sales people doing that for free.
Blue Table Painting and Miniwargaming are a few of the great guys that made alot of for Games Workshop. Games workshop needs people on the ground…fans to help them to spread the “word”. The latest business moves is so bad it makes me sad ( I do this for a living). Good gaming guys!
Let’s assume some of what Warren is saying is true, and GW’s basically loathsome behavior is rooted more in self-preservation than in pure arrogance. Okay, fine. But don’t ever — EVER — try to imply or insinuate to me that GW had or has any interest in “saving the hobby” beyond their own bottom line. GW calls wargaming and hobby collecting/painting “The GW Hobby,” with capital letters. They steadfastly refuse to acknowledge that gaming exists beyond their borders, and their rule books and magazines are chock full of propaganda and some often amount to little more than ads for more GW stuff.
Worse, to act like GW needs to be, or is the only company in position to, or in any way needs to, SAVE the hobby implies that GW invented wargaming and keeps the whole industry afloat. BULL. Are they huge? Do legions of blind devotees continue to crawl back to them on hands and knees, begging to be whipped again and again by a pricing model that promises one thing, delivers another, and always deals out bruises and welts? Sure. People are sort of unwise like that. But wargaming and modeling existed before GW and will continue to exist long after its very-too-far off but well-deserved demise. From what I can tell, GW HATES the hobby. They just like their company too much to quit.
Finally, plenty of companies out there are thriving, utilizing the internet and the community that comes along with it, and using retailers and the communities that come along with those, without going under. GW did the worst thing imaginable for a niche company in a niche hobby: they gave the reins over to stockholders. They now have to worry about constantly climbing profits, which basically is a recipe for eventually screwing everybody involved, starting with retailers, then customers, and eventually their own staff. You can expect customer service to be outsourced to India soon, possibly followed by cheap sculpts from China.
However you want to sugarcoat it, GW’s problems all involve a desire to get rich and a need now to feed the hungry mouths of stockholders. Nothing good can come of that. And every bad decision they’ve made since is just another bad decision on top of another, on top of another. Basically, it’s like telling a lie. Then having to tell another to cover that one, and another to cover that, and on and on, until whatever good you once did is just a shadowy memory. Do I think they have a right to protect their bottom line? Sure. But did they make their own messy bed? Yup, and now they need to lie in it.
“But don’t ever — EVER — try to imply or insinuate to me that GW had or has any interest in “saving the hobby” beyond their own bottom line.”
I was referring to their hobby, not ‘the hobby’ 🙂
A distinction only they draw, and HQ’s only hobby seems to be exploring their sphincter with their forehead lately.
While I disagree, I do think the article has served wonder to generate a good conversation so hats off to you sir.
And our Mighty Beast Of War!!! 😉
I think that a good deal of the problem that Games Workshop faces is not just economic, but also anthropological in nature. They don’t really understand their target markets as well as they used to and they are now needing to make knee jerk reactions to try and keep up. It used to be the case that they could dominate the market with local store because there was no easy way for people, say 12-18) to go and look for a better deal. Now it is possible for them to jump online and find sales on the same products without even needing to leave their homes. I believe that if GW spent more time calming down and trying to figure out who their target market is and how to deal with independent retailers they could figure out how to get their money back, For example, if they were to significantly cut the price of their models, probably by about %30, they could make themselves more appealing to the younger buyers, who would now be able to purchase model with the money that they can get from birthdays, christmas, or part-time work. Also, if they were to dictate the minimum price that independent retailers could sell GW products at then they can ensure that they are the best deal, or at least aren’t being undercut. Also, if they do reduce the price of models overall, they still wouldn’t be driving away the independents because for some people that is the only way to get their models and this way the independents will still make money.
I also think that it would do wonders for their sales if GW stopped making it so hard to approach them with questions and comments. If they became more active on twitter (the last post is from February 2013), facebook, and forums they could create a rapport with their online customer base by making themselves a group that can be identified and communicated with. It is hard to support a company that appears stand-offish and cold, regardless of whether they are or not, and that means that people take their money elsewhere, preferring to support a company that they believe listens to them.
Ultimately, I am not an economist, nor can I make heads or tails of the GW financial report to understand exactly what the numbers are saying. These are just my thoughts as a consumer who believes that it is important for companies to understand who their consumers are and what matters to them.
Dictating minimum pricing is illegal.
An important couple of notes. GW has amazing cash reserves and stock price is only a reflector of performance not a statement of risk. They still made money – so not even to the point where cash is having to be spent beyond what they make.
2nd this has happened before – in 2000 the stock price actually dropped low enough that if I had been Wizards or Nintendo or Disney even I would have gladly bought out the company for a pittance and considered the real estate and IP a real bargain.
The real question is – do they rally and change or just assume the market has changed and they need to keep cutting costs to maintain crazy profitability (do the % of profit vs sales – it’s pretty dang solid)
Last – when I left in 2004 the group global sales was approaching $100 million – not a lot of growth over 9 years. Even with Black Library and licensing being much more established than back then. Diversification has not done much more than cover lost in the core business.
For me I think the biggest mistake, bar not getting the whole internet thing & ignoring certain games/systems because they didn’t make as much as 40k/Warhammer (which is where a lot of companies now target) was when GW forgot they were a high street retailer, like any other. I can’t name any other high street retailer that (drum roll)…
Never has any Sales – ever. Hell even Harrods has a sale. GW used to back in the 90’s – buy two blister’s get cheapest free, had coupons in White Dwarf for grand openings of new stores – 10-25% off etc. If they had spend online only deals, like many mini companies do, say spend £100 on a certain army and get 10% off, or spend £150 and we’ll include the codex or a boxed set worth up to £30 free etc…at least that way they’d make 100% of any profit and it would be more affordable for the customer. The flip side is people would expect it all the time, but why not? Why not target holidays with sales for a boost in sales – Christmas, Easter, A random weekend Summer sale once in a while – target the school holidays and make money. Instead it seems they feel like they are the high-end of the miniature market, like the Gucci or Ferrari of the toy soldier world and inflate their prices accordingly/stupidly.
If they want to get new gamer’s how about a roadshow and support for their GCN’s (or isn’t that a thing anymore?)…honestly I feel like they’ve forgotten what their business is, it’s not all about selling miniatures, it’s about selling a hobby and making people feel good about said hobby but their corporate attitude and lack of any kind of PR is just worthy of an epic facepalm.
If it’s possible why not sell old product? Why not have a digital archive of old editions/books/white dwarfs that people can subscribe to for a couple of quid a month (or better yet for free), instead of sitting on their history/IP like Smaug? There is so much they could do if they had but the wit to see it…
I don’t have the will to play any current GW games, mainly because they’re a mess – but no less fun for it it has to be said. I don’t think this is the ‘end’, by far, just a symptom of a few years of senility. GW is showing its age and needs to sup up a 6-pack of health potions or a Keg of Bugman’s…how have they not made/licenced that beer to a micro-brewery yet, for exclusive sale in Warhammer World, I’ll just never know…
If they are concerned that games like Necromunda aren’t worth the money – try a Kickstarter for all plastic gangs and terrain…join the 21st Century and stop being so damn insular, like some mad hermit that people love to make fun of/openly hate/ignore, but may also have some affection for as well, because of who they were before they locked themselves up in a shack and started poking puppies with their walking stick.
Lastly I’m not one full of hate, just episodic with frustration, I don’t want to see GW fall into oblivion or be bought and shipped to China to feed a fantastical demand for high quality cheap plastic minis, I just hope that, if this result continues into their end of year, that they realise they have been given the slap in the face they need to get their gak together. If not then they’ll continue to lose money for exploiting their sacred IP instead of loving it…which is a shame for the industry, as much as it is a boon for parts of it.
@wizardlizard1130.
The thing is GW plc have been cutting costs for 7 years now.There is not a lot left to cut.
They have the funds available to invest in some proper market research , find out who their customers could be, and how to attract them.
Find out what is the most efficient price point for their products and do not exceed it !
Also open a positive narrative to discuss mutual support with the people and independent companies that promote and support GW sales.
IF GW plc corporate managers started to acknowledge their customers, are their most important asset, rather than a resource to exploit. They may have a chance of putting things right.
Bang on, as cheesy as it was their 10 commandments where, it was the core of excellent customer service which has just gone from the company
Just say the rumours are true and that GW are indeed to release a Warhammer Fantasy Skirmish game…
…Well at first I was like ‘yeah, fantastic!’ I love Fantasy, 8th edition is brilliant and a skirmish game would be wicked mate. A big bonus being that I haven’t really the time, space or indeed funds to do the full-blown tabletop game nowadays. But a Fantasy skirmish game would be great!
But then my brain tells me ‘hang on mate this is Games Workshop’. No doubt the miniatures will still cost stupid money and the game itself will retail for a crazy price that’ll be even more ‘fantastical’ than the cover art on the box. You won’t get hardly any counters and/or scenery just sh*t loads of propaganda to try convince me in blatant terms to buy the full blown game that nobody plays anymore because it’s so expensive to get into. Then there is no longer any guarantee that the rules will be any good, no doubt they’ll do their usual copy and paste job from past rulebooks and games. And of course being that it is GW, they probably won’t support it beyond 18 months. It’ll be another footnote in Wikipedia alongside Necromunda, Inquisitor, Warhammer Quest and all those other amazing games they’ve dropped. So that’s GW problem in a nutshell – I don’t trust the buggers.
I was a big Games Workshop enthusiast, especially for Fantasy. However I’m sick of all the crap that has to be endured to be a GW hobbyist. When it comes to 40K I’m a Dark Angels player and when that codex came out it was the final straw for me. What the Dark Angel codex demonstrated was that the high prices no longer guarantee the quality of a GW product. Had they sold the codex book for less and they weren’t so arrogant as a company I would’ve given them some sympathy but then their relations with loyal customers is non-existent.
Since going to Salute last year I have opened up to all the other amazing gaming companies out there, and they are superb. The range of new and different games on offer is quite fantastic. I’m a Deadzone kickstarter backer and I’m sure that not only will it be the game of 2014 but its success will draw away even more discontented hobbyists from GW.
So how can GW improve? The extreme prices are a barrier to success and raising them again and again over the next few years will be fatal. Crucially they need to re-release games like Warhammer Quest and Space Hulk and sell them mainstream to attract new customers, including young people. Sci-fi/Fantasy gaming has never been bigger (so popular) and with the world-wide recession people are more likely to stay in with friends than go out and spend loads of money. So this is when the games come out! And also, GW must urgently repair their relationship with customers and fans and start talking and listening. At the moment they are regarded as arrogant, greedy and ‘evil’. They really must get a new image and adapt to the internet and online community fast!!!
Oh and lastly…a company that calls itself ‘Games Workshop’ should really produce more than just 2 game systems (and Lord of the Rings games whenever a film comes out). It is quite sad to see Fantasy Flight Games producing a larger array of GW licensed games than actually GW does. It says a lot to me.
In the end, it all comes down to one thing. GW failed to sue enough small businesses, independent publishers who have no clue who they are, and fans making fan sites.
To recoup the money they are losing from being an all around bad company(who happens to have a good product line…) They really need to pick up the legal action and drive everyone who supports them and still likes them into bitterness and dislike.
In all seriousness… you guys can talk business strategies as much as you want. It really IS as simple as, piss off your customers, lose. Lose money, lose your good reputation, lose potential customers, and eventually lose your company if you don’t change something.
As a customer here is why I stopped buying GW products (beside sometimes second hand on ebay) : Ridiculous increase of price for plastic miniatures + attitude towards people/groups that supports the hobby. Simple as that.
it isn’t *just* the fault of GW.
Wave some meat in front of a beast and don’t act surprised it bites.
It really is just as much the fault of the fan boys, i.e the people who think GW can do no wrong, see the more expensive miniatures as “status symbols”, and continue to indulge GW’s latest BS (data slates etc). People who are “so happy” they got their Imperial Fists supplement (with rules that SHOULD have been in the godamn Codex). They really are people happy with scraps from Longshanks’s table.
Remember a company is ALWAYS controlled by the public i.e. the consumers, and it will only get away with what you let it get away with. Blame (with good reason) management and stupidity, or shareholders, but at the end of the day it’s the moron who keeps buying GW products at retail from the GW site (SOMEONE is buying their 1-click-collections you know…) that enables GW to continue to shoot itself in the foot. We all suffer if GW suffers, in the end.
They killed the the good will and gaming spirit behind their games recently and they are feeling the effects of their actions. Games Workshop once was a magical place, the stores supported the hobby and the magazine inspired. The sad truth is that in their zeal to sell, sell, sell they forgot what really sells: customer service, kindness, art, style, fun, fanciful wanderings…when you just makes models to sell, they lose their soul.
Like many here, Games Workshop was my path into the gaming world. The hobby is all the strategy, pageantry, creativeness, style and swagger one could dream of. Slowly, this changed. GW did not have to change because of online dealers. They did not have to shut down all mention of their products from the web and send lawyers out to hound diehard hobbyists that they created. They did not fail to adapt to the new era of gaming, they became prideful in their opulence and in that lust for more material gain, lost their soul and lost much of their truly loyal fans. Young people can only take them so far, they needed the legions of people who grew up in the hobby to stick with them…instead we all went off to gaming companies who still have that adventurous spirit and kept fans center stage.
P.S. Can I be a bit more jaded than most because I’m a Wood Elf player? 87 years and no new codex. Every time for the last, oh, 15 years I keep hearing they could be next…never to be.
look at all the money you have saved for the 3 or 4 pages that have changed
We must remember many of the wargamers came from roleplaying games and then move into miniatures. The original D&D rules used miniature movements and had grids. GW didn’t create the hobby it was simply dominate because it produced a large range of miniatures with decent wargaming rules in a niche that had not been properly filled. TSR didn’t get into wargaming nor was there a decent space wargame. Look at the design philosophies of rogue trader and WFB. They stated why design decisions were made in their rule sets. Original rogue trader was a universal future wargame that could be adapted from everything from dune, to aliens, to starship troopers. WFB had rules to play just about any fantasy game and even historic battles. They just gave great fluff.
In the late 80s and early 90s, GW had tons of games that were gateways into the full blown hobby. The original rogue trader had a skirmish feel which appealed to a player like myself because there were few if any space skirmish games out there. You had space hulk which was a fast fun game for two people but used the same miniatures as the regular game. Then they had at least two expansions To space hulk. Similar things happened with tyranids and space marine scouts. The two rulesets were very different but the worlds were the same and you could easily take the miniatures from one to the other. The nice thing is only one person had to buy the game to play with friends. I also have game ADD so I like different systems because each has their own flavor and play speed.
Now cost is always an issue and wargaming is never a cheap hobby. I saw the argument showing the economics of GW and after that I do not fault their design methodology. What I do fault them for is poor design that does not encourage small games. Scenarios for small skirmish games, optional rules and other items that could be used for new players to encourage scalability. Apocalypse is great for those with massive armies, but why not encourage half size squads and work your way up? This way a new player can buy a unit box and learn to play. Include single or half unit games. Focus on additional model scenarios. Ok, add one transport to your existing squad. Use a fast attack squad for this scenario. Use a heavy attack squad. It does two things it lets players learn the rules at an easy pace and sets a low bar for entry in cost (relatively speaking).
I used to buy GW miniatures because they were far superior to anything else on the market and was willing to pay a premium price. Their miniatures are good but not leap and bounds ahead of other models on the market. Finecast spelled the death knell for me buying GW products. I can deal with plastics and because after pinning and trying to line up arms at two points simply made gluing is a blessing. What I cannot accept are inferior models due to poor quality control, warping and other issues. This left a bad mouth in the entire community and the prices were excessively high.
This is key as other companies actively encourages volunteers. Privateer press has press gangers who are to organize events and leagues. They give different rule sets and they actively engage their audience. They blog online, they clarify rule sets, they show videos, they organize tournaments, etc. GW has their online site, but it is really just a hobbyist for painting rather than adding something to my game playing experience. It did not help that their practices to squelch alternative sites to promote their products have left a sour taste in my mouth.
The heavy handed action distributing actions to brick and mortar LGS have turned off owners. Many owners have limited space and carry multiple products from several companies. Warmachine/hordes now has a bigger presence in retail space in the last few LGS I have been in. Infinity and several others have grown while the amount of space and location of GW’s offerings have shrunk.
Finally and this is very important to GW’s issues. The internet has made it much easier to find other competitors games. Places like Craig’s list and eBay make it much easier to buy warhammer armies in the grey market especially when people leave the hobby. Miniatures are not a perishable product. GW in an effort to bypass the grey Market keeps revising their editions and in some cases intentionally obsoletes units and by forcing wysiwyg rules force players to chunk their models.
So to summarize here are the issues they need to address:
1) a very narrow offering in their stores for products.
2) quality of formerly excellent metal miniatures have been replaced with finecast
3) little support to LGS to support their products
4) high cost of entry with poor scalability.
5) poor volunteer support for games
6) constant rule changes which require multiple purchases of codexes and rules.
7) a niche market where competition is becoming more fierce.
Great article Warren, it’s very fair as the others I’ve seen have just spent the time bashing GW. I’ve played 40K since 2nd ed came out (what a Birthday) and it is true that back then £5 would get you a large choice of stuff; there was always the big stuff, I saved for ages to get an Eldar Dreadnought.
But it seems at the moment the GW are pricing themselves out of the first timer market. I run a gaming club at a college and the landscape has changed in the past 2 years. Where once the games would all be 40k or WFB now I have kids playing Dreadball and Infinity or buying their models from Anvil Industries to be proxies.
The landscape has changed and other companies are filling the void left by Bloodbowl, Necrumunda, Epic et all. GW will ride this out but will not lower prices as that would be unsustainable. At the end of the day we all have a choice about where we buy our mini’s and what we play GW know that and will just have to try something different.
I think GW should get a visit from Gordon Ramsey, he might give them a good wake up call as to how they could run there business much better.
So, internetron is covered with rumours that GW Germany is gone, brets, wood elves, beastmen, and khemri are not getting new books, GW France and GW US getting scaled back (staff cuts, and move some responsibility back to Lenton).
Sounds like GW Management know what they are doing :/
GW Germany going
http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/gw-changes-stores-closing-and-armies-no.html
This is one of those nights, where reporting the news and rumors just sucks the wind out of you. There are big changes happening. Finecast gone, GW stores in Germany gone, Wood Elves/ Bretonnians/ Beastmen/ Khemri also gone. It looks like a lot is going to change with after this last financial report.
While these are just rumors, they are given a lot of credibility by verified news earlier this evening that GW HQ in France, Germany and the US are being cut back. Here is the link to the news earlier.
http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/games-workshop-germany-shut-down.html
Something big is underway in response to yesterday’s semi-annual report and stock losses resulting in what looks like Games Workshop Germany Headquarters is shutting down. US and France will be effected as well. This will place stores under direct leadership of GW UK.
I get annoyed reading all the claims about GW being technology leaders in miniatures manufacture. Really? So why is it that literally dozens of historical kits manufacturers turn out superior plastic, resin, etched brass and other kits (hybrid or not) for prices that are less than GW’s? Don’t take my word for it – have a look.
I can’t name a single company that makes superior plastic kits (plural note). I can think of a few who have released a handful of plastic kits which are equal to GW but not superior.
And I see zero evidence that GW’s Finecast (WHEN. SOLD. AS. INTENDED. Bubbles free) can’t be beaten. Matched, yes. But not beaten.
Price is irrelevant, obviously, when dealing with quality. Just trying to be fair to GW as it’s a little toooo easy to bash them.
I can’t name a single company that makes superior plastic kits
You need to get out more
Price is irrelevant, obviously, when dealing with quality. And price is NEVER irrelevant
Please name kits then that are superior – not equal – plastic kits, to GW – we’re talking about options, detail, quality of the plastic, and quality of mold. I have plastics from Perry, PP, Mantic, Warlord, Wargames, Dreamforge, Avatars of War and some others. Only Dreamforge, Perry and Avatars MATCH GW’s plastics, they don’t remotely beat them.
And of course price is irrelevant. We’re talking about whether a kit is aesthetically good and well made, not whether it’s worth the cash. No one claimed that GW kits were value for money.
Who are these companies that are so much value for money ? Privateer press certainly aren’t any cheaper than GW, other companies don’t seem to offer much better value unless you are talking about mantic and frankly I think their stuff is well below standard, wouldn’t have it in my army.
That’s a nice bit of devils advocate there chap. Quality of plastic is really in the eye of the beholder and subjective to the individuals tastes. Frankly I would say Perry’s plastics really take a lot of beating. However by asking whose ‘kits’ are superior you threw the door open a hell of a way. So far that I think we can throw in the greater ‘toys’ scene and that includes Tamiya and Hasegawa and to an increasing degree Airfix of late. Kits wise that is. 😉 Yeah I know I am missing your point. Again its subjective. Some of GW’s individual plastics really have been good and fun to build but there are some up and comers that make GW’s claims seem to push belief I am loving the Malifaux series of releases in plastic at the moment. The latest pieces seem to have beaten their previous iffy quality problems and (And this is very very important if you sit and think a while) it matches the background and all the fluff produced for each faction. Evil looks evil. Dead looks dead. The dark side are to be reckoned with by looks as well as fluff. The models in GW’s line up simply don’t give you that feel of matching the fluff straight from the box. Surely the real test of if the product is any good is if it makes you feel like it matches its rep on paper?
@rayliyal
Perry Miniatures, Fireforge and Avatars make equally excellent plastics for GW and very low prices (when compared to what you get from GW). I’d probably throw in Dreamforge’s Eisenkern Stormtroopers as well in there.
Some of Mantic’s newer stuff biting at GW’s heels, for low low prices. Mantic’s Orks are just as good if not better than GW’s.
Dreamforge games.
Their stuff just rolls over GW offerings. The Leviathan is the single most enjoyable kit related to wargaming i have ever built and painted.
Outside wargaming, my jaw just drops every time i open a bandai gundam kit, of master grade and above. The new sazabi is a work of engineering genious.
Perry miniatures are historical, I was really talking about alternatives to use for GW armies, Avatars do some nice dwarves but are actually more expensive than GW’s, Dreamforge storm troopers are good value but I certainly wouldn’t say they were better than, say, space marines, they just don’t look as good, although that is just a matter of opinion. Privateer press charging £40 for 10 plastic Khador riflemen seems to be more of a rip off than £25 for 10 space marines or am I missing something here ? Don’t get me wrong, I think GW have made some bad business decisions in their time but I just wanted to put a few things into perspective regarding price, something most people seem to have a problem with. While I agree they are expensive it’s not as big a gulf as some people would have you believe, and I’m talking generally here because I know you can find a few inconsistencies with their pricing. My main army is Skaven and I find £20.50 for 20 clan rats quite acceptable.
Rayliyal the biggest beef folk have with GW is they sell boxed sets of units which cannot be used alone straight out of the box. Almost every other system going sell you a unit that you can use in a game from the kick off with no additional units to qualify for the game standard. Its not much good if a unit minimum is 8 figures and the box contains only 5 figures. Nor is it much use marketing a game requiring an outlay for 60 figures minimum when your box price and contents are so badly messed up to require huge out lay before you get to the games normal figure quantity. Since you ask who are the ones presenting value for money. Perry minatures boxes are aimed at the large unit game sector of the market. 30 plus figures to a box for the price of 10 space marines… Now that is value.
Really, that’s the biggest beef people have ?
@cadfael I don’t think art is subjective in a free-for-all sense that many desire but I understand what you mean and think we can all sit down and define parameters ha ha.
The fluff should be discarded if we’re talking about “who makes the best plastics” as there are many companies that make plastics but have no fluff. Don’t bully them 🙁
Lol just saw something related to this, look at there stock of 2005, you will realise that this drop isnt that big of a drop in comparison to that one.
Ok so GW is reaping what it has sowed…
What do you expect from a company that continually raised prices throughout a period of world recession with marked quality drops (fine cast roll out, codex spelling errors etc.) while also attacking its distribution channels by silly demands imposed on retailers not to mention the all out of kilter trade agreements. Its so sad really cause I love 40k but they have been milking peoples wallets dry for too long. It just can’t keep going. Hopefully some good common sense changes can happen. Like having a sale, not charging a silly amount for expansion books. One can only hope!
My question is why arent the GW stores selling their related IP games? I mean fantasy flight games makes several GW board games, card games and roleplaying games. You think they would try to bring in their partners to support their games/IP. The same includes any other licenses. This way you are buying into a world/environment rather than just a limited offering by a single company.
GW used to do all those games and stopped because they weren’t making much money and actively worked against their strategy of selling the maximum number of minis that they can. Selling the licensed games in their stores would give them the same problem with the added bonus that they have to give a share of any profit to another company.
In-depth analysis at masterminis.net :
http://masterminis.blogspot.de
Its worth your time.
Yes they are down 23% but, they are already back up 4 points.(1%). They are still up 53% on 5 years ago considering the economic climate during those years its not bad. It’s just a bump in the road for these guys, GW had an even bigger drop in value in 2005 and they are still here. Tom Kirby must have rolled well on the warlord chart and got it will not die.
Just an interesting note. GW’s last big hit was like i say 2005 that coincides with xbox360/ps3 release. Now they take a hit right after xbox one/ps4 release. I know I just spent £500 on one so that’s definitely a couple hundred out of GW pocket, pretty sure i won’t be the only one. How many kids do you recon asked for a console rather than GW stuff they asked for last year? There are factors outside of the industry that impact profit. Console releases are tough for alot of companies as they are usually a must have item especially at Christmas which will hurt alot of companies 1st Quarter.
Superior plastic kit manufacturers? How about Tamiya, Hasegawa, Revell, Dragon, Trumpeter, Airfix, Italeri, Zvezda, Plastic Soldier Company, Victrix, Perry’s, Mini Art, ICM, Hobby Boss, Bronco Models, Meng Model, AFV Club, Cyber-Hobby, Mirror Models, Academy, Masterbox, Kinetic and many others. Yes, these are primarily historical kits, not gaming pieces, yet they have far more detail and complexity, finer parts and often have etched-brass or other components for those areas that cannot realistically be made in plastic. And many of them cost less than the GW kits!
I have 40 plus years of kit building experience, and more or less the same in wargaming, so I have essentially seen it all, in all paradigms and from minute naval ships up to 1:32 scale WW2. GW may make any claim they wish. I just point to many thousands of pieces of evidence that contradicts their claim. And in case we are limiting it to games manufacturers only, I note that many people use the model kits in their wargames as they can be the most cost effective way of getting a good vehicle, ship or aircraft (sometimes the only way).
GW (de facto shareholders) lost around 50 Million (!) bucks worth over night. Thats a lot money simply disappering into thin air.
They are closing HQs worldwide, firing people, stopping and crippling Game Days, soon discontinuing armies and maybe whole system lines. They are desperately throwing and changing product and release strategies. This doesnt seem like sharp strategy or confident acting. Its panic and concern, and simply a failing vision we see there. GW maneuvered itself into a bad spot.
The one factor that is causing every single wrong move and sets GW apart from the entire industry as such is sitting staring us in the face. It sold shares that trade on the stock market. That above everything else will be its downfall if anything.
For me the big thing is the increase in price, going from metal to plastic was supposed to make the models cheaper, in reality they are way too expensive. Also the so called finecast, I’ve had too many problems with this format and will not buy another finecast model.
I love the Black library and forge world stuff! but again way too expensive, for example the new Graphic novel, £75!
Also their apparent refusal to bring back the popular skirmish games like Space Hulk or the immense Bloodbowl.
I also don’t like going into the store, where you immediately get pounced on, I love the chat about the hobby, but the focus is clearly on getting you to part with as much cash as possible
I am now considering other products such as Deadzone.
I went to last years Gamesday and enjoyed it but was disappointed to see there were no games tables and half the arena was for their retail.
Warhammer world in Nottingham is awesome but a long way to go for the experience.
I agree with a lot of what has been said here, especially the point that GW need to re-engage with their customers and get back to what made them great, invest in the hobby and those that enjoy it and the profits will come, just stop trying to out price the majority of us out of the hobby because with all the competition form other companies making better products we will leave and not come back.
What needs to be done…
GW should start listening to the community for one. They have no forums, no open play testing, in short they have no contact with the people that actually buy their products.
They should ensure quality publications across the board. 6th edition codices has brought great ones like Tau and Eldar and then some simply atrocious ones like Chaos Marines and Tyranids. And this is just not acceptable.
Their pricing is steep… There may be good reasons for this, but the fact remains that other wargame companies sell their products alot cheaper. One can get a whole “army” in Malifaux for the price of 2 GW vehicles/MCs. Add in that their necessary codices costs more than the Core rules for most other wargames, and are of dubious quality.
GW are driving themselves out of business with their arrogant behavior towards their consumer base, and their lust for maximum profit.
I had some more constructive things to say, but they got lost somewhere in my mind…
G W is a British company with British mind set if ( things / profits ) go wrong the management spit the dummy out star sh***ing on the workers / customers & anything else getting their goat up co.’s its never them like a lot of rich people its their party and their,l screw if they want to they have made their money they can retire if they want
Zorg, is this one of those sentences you have to piece together in order to understand what it means? Apart from being a bigoted stereotype it is grammatically incorrect because there are no full stops in the sentence. Go back and try again.
Sorry about that. Just having a wee rant. Its just that iv played GW games for over 30 years now. It’ll be a shame for such a big company to go belly up. Things are getting bad when one of the escape mechanism’s of life may dies off.
That’s the drink off the shopping list.
as
What are you on about? Do you really think the small fish at GW are rich lmao.
Quit with the 1% vs 99% bile. The reality is GW stupidity. If GW were serious about getting rich they’d be making better decisions. I WANT to give GW my money, and I WANT them to get rich off my backs – but I want them to EARN IT.
PP, Mantic, THEY’RE EARNING my cash. I’ve even bought Hail Ceasar, and I have no idea what to do but damn, what a beautiful Rulebook. Have my gold coins.
Back in the late 2008 I got back into the 40k game after a long absence, absent since the glory days of 2nd edition. Wow, the 2nd edition Chaos Codex, what a tome… and for only abouts £10 as well.
Some of my mates played a little 40k, so me and a few others got persuaded into joining in, or rather inspired. Back then we were around 10 people, guys and gals, now 8 out of 10 shuns GW wargames and GW in general. I am one of them, my Chaos lads of the great Grandfather gathers dust, sold my Dark Eldar.
Was thinking of getting back into it, because I love the IP, with the ‘nids. At least if the Codex was good enough, I had some hopes about that considering the new Daemon, Marine, Tau and Eldar codices even if that CSM codex was just horrible… can probably blame that on being “first” was my thought. Then the ‘nids came, and it was just… meh.
Well, saves me the money. Will just spend it on Wyrds Malifaux instead. Great looking minis, cool IP with great fluff… And NOT a money-sink like warhammer.
Such unreliability is what amongst other things that which loses them customers. Along with the greed and arrogance etc…
I feel that the whole management of GW has gone awry. They are resting on laurels that were perhaps earned but sadly over the past few years, forgotten.
I’ve been with the hobby for over ten years. I enjoy building, painting and playing with GW and other figures. It’s a hobby unlike any other.
However, there is a very specific and unique component to our hobby that makes it profitable. Us. We gamers are the very component that makes this hobby relevant and allow it to thrive. Seems obvious enough, right?
But this is where it gets a bit sinister. As gamers, whether it be card games, board games or miniature table top games, we all share a common trait- collectors’ OCD. We all need. Desire. Crave. DEMAND.
As collectors we are almost never satisfied. We must continually have. That’s the nature of collecting. Whether it be the next army, book, figure, paint we simply MUST have it. And the beauty of collecting both from a business standpoint and a psychological one, is that the itch will never be scratched. It can’t be. Otherwise we’d have nothing left to collect.
So, the business model we are all scratching our heads about is less about models hegemony or longevity, but rather moreso about we the gamers and our insatiable need for more and more stuff. WE are the business model.
I came to this realization after many countless nights wondering what GW is thinking. They are completely mad with their pricing. Almost to the point of being profane. But here’s the catch – how many times have we complained to our club mates about the ludicrous pricing only to run out at the mere mention of a new codex hitting the shelves of our local game shop and shelling out the $50!
GW knows that their consumer base, although irritated and upset, will pay the price for their wares. Or will they? Now, it would seem from the numbers, that their arrogance has finally shown them that after so much abuse, gamers WILL put their hard earned money into more reasonable pockets.
There are companies out there like Privateer Press that celebrate the gamers. They have common sense release schedules. Sensible pricing. MERCS is a game that has a great support base from its creators. Many companies out there are listening to the consumers and delivering quality product at reasonable prices. Why can’t GW do the same?
I have to admit, GW has been hurting and abusing it’s base for quite some time. The past few releases and price points have been nothing short of absurd. My clubmates and I often scratch our heads over their pricing and methods. It’s very sad considering they do have a great game, but a huge part of what makes a company thrive isn’t just the product it creates but how it supports its base. GW has been absolutely AWFUL at this over the past five or so years.
Forever is a long time. GW will surely not make it with the way they are operating. They are simply… baffling.
I suppose the statement ‘If we cant sell it we dont wanna talk about it’ goes hand in hand with GW and as such this killed off good hobby articles and interest – let alone passing those skills onto the next level of gamers instore (anyone remember terrain making days in GW stores and gamesday?)
GW killed off the passion for its own games through a whole host of decisions. Having worked there too and tried bringing the passion back though i can tell you no one is interested and management dont want to hear it…..they know best and you do as your told!
As for what would i have done differently…..
– Well anyone remembe the skulls promotion, bring those bad boys back to highstreet stores only and make an exclusive catalogue of merhcandise for them to be redeemed against (Models, minis, prints etc)
– Got De Agostini onboard again and tried to repeat the success of a Lord of the Rings Battles in Middle Earth with the Hobbit (GW has got MASSIVE recruitment issues and this brought so many people into GW that saw the advert on TV, played and collected the game but who also came in and saw WHF and WH40k for the first time and moved systems down the line). Appropriately i would have looked at pricing of Hobbit/LOTR as an entry level game/gateway and allowed 40K to help carry any losses on this range as a loss leader into the hobby (Yeah i understand there would be issues re NewLine/MGM and Warner to work around also so not as easy asi put it above)
I suppose there are lots of minor things, products here and there which you could release, change but i think the damage has been done and people are well and truely completely disillusioned by GW, there products, policies, prices and more now a days and by voting with there pockets people are telling GW this – the boat has sailed and i GW wont becoming back from it like before….
No the future of GW is losing the the entire chain of highstreet stores (though alot of properties are on leases atleast upto 25 years in some places – though could GW rent these out to other stores and recoupe some cost?), having Indies carry their product like FOW, PP, Mantic and others while moving more heavily and at increasing speed to the ‘come buy from our website…the only place you can get ALL of our products in one place’ from stratedgy with rules and so forth all being paid for only (Kiss all the Free of charge stuff goodbye – though its mostly there already!)
GW Germany closing, under UK control.
GW France closing, under UK control.
GW Auckland closing
Amsterdam shop closing.
GW USA closing under UK control
I think that there may be a reason that GW sales are falling that everyone has missed. A large amount of their customer base have already made the major purchases required. Once players have 100 tactical marines, they wont buy another 100. New codexes and rulebooks keep us buying, but in terms of models, the amount of models that a previous player would buy is small.
Example a player who played marines would have bought the new codex, maybe a squad or two of the new units. They are unlikely to buy a tonne of tactical assault and devastators that they already own. Furthermore Ebay has to be taking a huge chunk away from them
Mantic and privateer press etc have probably taken more sales than ebay. The release of the playstation 4 and xbox didn’t help
The sun not setting on the union jack, was a sign of the British empire.
That’s no longer true.
Anywhere you go you can get a game of warhammer. That was a sign of GW’s empire.
That’s no longer true as well.
That would imply that the customer base is static, it isn’t, and inadvertently touches on why GW adopt the sales strategy they do.
I was introduced to 40k from hobby stores which carried everything from RC cars, historical books, roleplaying games, and model trains. I still go to such stores to see a variety of items and will buy what interests me or would make a good present for my friends or family.
GW doesn’t produce the best hobby related supplies. It doesn’t have the best paints or brushes or even bottles. 12ml of citadel paint for $4 when I can buy 17ml for $3.30 (msrp) from vallejo? Plastic cutters, hobby drills, etc. The prices are hardly competitive in comparison for those supplies. It is like GW slaps on its trademark and pumps the price up 30% or more. It doesn’t help that my LGS has a variety of paints manufacturers, foam cases, 40k related items such as by FFG. Hobby lobby and Michaels have high quality airbrushes and paint. So unless I am going to buy GW models I have no reason to enter into their stores.
Let’s be honest we could play all their games using dice, pencil, paper and cutout markers. In the beginning rogue trader even had paper markers in the back of the book to represent marines and orks. They need to wake up and realize to grow the market they have to engage their customers, broaden their appeal to include the hobbyist who loves to paint and wants the best miniatures to the father who wants to play a board game with his son.
And as a side note the battlebunker in Chicago closes this month to be replaced by a single man store.
Sad days all round
They did it to themselves, Stopping independent stores from using their images, to promote their product. Very stupid as it hampered sales.
Stopping instore gaming, and tournament support freed people from needing 100% GW models. Playing at independent shops exposed them to other aftermarket parts, and alternative games.
I’m reminded of an old cartoon I saw as a wee lad. You know the kind, the tools that tried to teach as much as entertain, in it a shoe maker had a failing business, gnomes came and helped. But they explained business to him first and foremost.
In it, they pointed out that through cost management, advertizing, shipping and product quality and prestige you earned profit.
To paraphase, as it’s been 25 years…
The old man said ‘Yes! That’s what I want!’
The gnome said ‘Yes, every business wants that, and you need it to keep the business running, you need to spend it.’
‘Spend it! But I thought you kept profit!’
‘No, you keep your wages, but profit needs to be reinvested in the company. Refining your product, manufacturing, improving your employees or advertizing. In the end only 20% at the most should be kept by the employees, even you!’
‘But how do I get a bigger salary then?’
‘Simple, you grow the company.’
My economics professor wondered why I won all our little mock business games. I told him cartoons…
It is completely unsurprising. GW have had falling volume fairly constantly for some time now, it just seems to have finally bitten, with many saying they have hit the mutually reinforcing fall (less players, so less advertising, so less opponents so less players) that wipes out future growth and shrinks the company down to be one of the pack (assuming no change from GW). All this too in a time when the market segment they are broadly part of is having considerable growth, making the shrinkage even worse (relatively).
How they got here seems fairly straight forward. They grew the ‘post wargames’ market (you young pip squeaks wouldn’t know but the popularity of miniature games as in numbers playing them as a % of the population was in the past, the 70’s i think). They had a range of products, changing over time. They then focused on the younger customers and the core games allowing customers to slip away – often very angry having ‘bought in’ to then be given the cold shoulder and actively encouraged to sling their hooks – and other companies to offer those same style of games. Even better they tended to be low model count affairs making entry even easier. At the same time they faffed about with how they sold models, at one point with online discounts apocalypse boxes and the like GW was remarkable cheap for a company that gets flack for price.
The upset former customers exploded onto the internet, something I doubt GW expected, nor the venom directed at them, or the way their stores that had undermined independents were in turn undermined by online sellers and did the reactions outlined above.
So GW have in turn acted to cut out the undermining sales channels (everyone but GW), cut their costs (stores and the service they offer) and upped their prices while hammering discounts.
They are left with a reduced group of players, a brace of entry level competitors, the store network that was the main recruiting tool in bad shape, and an incredibly hostile internet presence that means any kid doing a websearch hits as many negative points as positive (the legalhammer sadly did not have the desired effect) all combining to mean if you do get into ‘heroic’ wargaming it is no longer a given it will be with GW.
Toss into that mix the games aren’t good. Certainly people like them, but they are somewhat limited affairs. They have a lot of special rules and list building that rely appeals to younger players, but very little on table challenge (the ultimate challenge is of course something like chess or go, but we like our chrome). GW just didn’t engage with the trend for fun, 1 ½-3 hour games with the majority of decision making in game and that hits their scalability to wider customer groups (for an example of what GW can do when it is in the zone is 4th edition Epic Armageddon – it has the list building and special rules but also a fantastic, varied, on table experience with balanced army lists).
I often wonder by axing the unperforming branches (like British Rail did) they suffered withering of the main product and stopped suppression of the other companies, all for long term problems.
I really don’t know what I would do. I can’t rely on the ‘fans’ because they are fewer in number and the older ones range from indifference to loathing (with a few misty eyed stalwarts, but not enough). I can’t do the shop network because the shareholders want a return that is incompatible with that approach. I can’t shift to direct only as that means losing size rapidly and hitting all the problems of a reducing market share, not to mention increasing the relative amount of my fixed costs. I can’t just re-release all the other games people want as my own data shows while there is a small increase in sales, most is cannibalised from the main game lines (well it is what happened in the past when BFG got re-launched in the US and so on, course that was a fair while ago).
Every choice seems to involve short term pain for uncertain long term results.
Maybe the only solution is to move to being a toy company and getting eaten by Hasbro. The other things needed – better core games, sensible collecting paths, either more stores or a new approach to promotion/advertising, a wider selection of games to take the fight to competitors, new relationship with shops that an help grow my player base, etc etc are all challenging with uncertain reward.
Certainly I would take the risk and try – have Specialist Games as a spin off company to help saturate the gaming environment again with the IP at all levels, handling Warhammer historical as well as other scales, launch a legends service that would re-issue old models, bring back skulls to bring more business to the webstore, have a good webstore, make the core games appeal to a wider group of players, have a good intro game at the same scale as the main game, get model based board games into ‘normal’ shops, synchronise game releases with video game adaptations, upload to the website thousands of old white dwarf articles and the old website stuff to be the source for general modelling etc advice.
Some of it is timing and organisation, some of it self funds (skulls – here being a webstore only reward scheme, SG, a legends service), some of it is hopefully cost neutral (good fixed terms of trade with brick and mortar shops) though I recognise that weakens the return per $ and some costs money (rules and game development, uploading all the vast resources to the web). And I would look to get myself out there – allow websites to use the stock images, not be fascist over web articles, leaks and names, work with companies to bring out mods to models, get the spun off SG to do kickstarters, get free/in game purchase games of decent quality onto devices, hopefully multiplayer based.
Incidentally, though not directly relevant, check out the kickstarter article below. Leaving bones aside a lot of this money is going into the types of gaming genres GW dominated.
http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/27655.html


Over $55 million was raised for tabletop games on Kickstarter in 2013, according to an analysis by ICO Partners, a UK-based consulting firm specializing in online games. That’s up from around $16 million in 2012, and represents a huge infusion of mostly direct-to-consumer dollars into tabletop game publishers.
Perhaps even more impressive, the money raised for tabletop games in 2013 nearly equaled the amount raised for video games.
We’ve been tracking the Top 10 Tabletop Game Kickstarters, and that ranking can shed some light on the 2013 growth. Seven of the top ten tabletop game Kickstarters, all over $1 million, were in 2013 (see “Top 10 Tabletop Game Kickstarters”). Of those, three were over $2 million and one was over $3 million. Those represent new highs; only one project, the first Bones Kickstarter, topped $2 (or $3) million in 2012.
http://www.icopartners.com/blog/archives/3439
Can i get the comment approved?
This will make you really popular ……….say by by to any and all codex review’s from now on!, this isn’t the way to build bridges man.
Is this a UK thing then ????, *+cks!
Nothing so far for me has replaced the felling GW has with its games/models, other company’s should step up, but I think there replacement hasn’t reared its head as yet, only time will tell…………..the king is dead long live the king.
Wowsers, there was a lot to read there, ok, my take as a small business owner…
– GW see 40K as a delivery system for minis
– This stops the game REALLY mattering and so the community is not relevant; Airfix don’t need to engage with their customers like Mantic do for example
– GW aren’t thinking or planning, they’re reacting
How to fix it? Bite the bullet. They need to re-engage with gamers, especially those whom they have disenfranchised (like me, I sold all my 40k a year ago) and begin to rebuild the community and the game. IF they can do that AND they bring down the prices a BIT then they could turn it around. They just need to stop staring into a mirror and start looking at the world around them.
But as I don’t see them doing that, I’ve moved to Infinity and haven’t looked back really! I know some people think the minis are fiddly and overly detailed (?!?!) but for me they’re gorgeous and the game is awesome. 🙂
Let go down in flames…over priced and chase smoke. i still have army box sets of ogres, dwarves and another…..mint….but cheaper prices, prepainted stuff, cooler minis and better selection got my bucks…..shit i haven’t looked a GW in several years unless on ebay page in my search
It use to be that most of the brick and motar stores in alberta….had a large selection of GW….good 30% of the shelf space. Now it confined to a comic book stand in the corner….maybe two feet wide and 6 feet high. if that. it has died out west…..people are dumping armies, minis and books for better suppliers of miniatures in price and diversity
But most B&M stores i visit have comics, board games models, gaming areas, manga (yuck)….really alot of diversity. As for online sales….unless it a very unique mini or alien artifact…..my favorite store is a wonderment of cool stuff…..glad that it has NO GW crack…ya can order it but its like ya have leprosy….but you name any other miniature and they have samples and can get it for ya. and that’s in northern alberta……there is 2 GW stores in edmonton.alberta..but what a farce they are…..they are empty and the boys just paint or play with them selves. cool job…..but my comic hobby shop has expanded and its busy…from magic card games to star wars to die hard D&D’ers in the corners.
SO i toast to GW death throws….like wizards of the coast….may a paizo animate your corpse…..really isn’t mantic doing that…..shit what about warlord games….adding orcs to the roster.
@warzan
Just to follow on from your comment about them being poorly structured to deal with the internet. When do those kind of things stop being an excuse, and start being an accusation in themselves?
My 95 year old grandfather, seems to understand online retail better than the management team of a company that does (in a good year) 200 million pounds of turnover. It just beggars belief, that they are ignorant of their ignorance.
If they live in a bubble filled with yes men who are telling the CEO etc that they are doing the best job possible, then there’s no way this ship is going to turn around without spilling the senior management.
I agree with a lot of this sentiment.
In my opinion the the sequence of events probably ran like this.
The model of retail and manufacture under the one house was necessary to properly deliver the ‘experience’ of the product, and was the only feasible way (in their heads at
least) of sustaining growth. (this is there the little black book and ten commandments back all this up, and in many ways were a magnificent strength of the company)
Ticking along concerned only with the rebuild of the company after the last crash (brought about as a result of the LOTR franchise ending)
Inexperience in the potential threat of online sales to the business model they had long ago established, allowed the development of more aggressive discounting to foster, (this is a natural thing to happen, as price is the easiest USP to develop, but its a race to the bottom).
By this stage, EU Law protects those who are doing it and there is no easy way either structurally or legally to backtrack.
Arrogance (and potentially a worry about litigation or falling foul of trade laws – even if that wasn’t the intention) means they decide not to work on a platform of cooporation, but rather enforecement.
Cooporation could have been a very quick fix.
Enforcement takes time as its done in very slow stages, where the legal team have to constantly find new legal ways to turn the screw.
To back up enforement, the business model may need to be changed (either for good or at least in the interim) to increace its effectiveness, and prepare the company for the next step.
The next step as I see it, is one of 3 options…
1) Games workshop leaves retail all together and focuses on manufacturing
2) Games Workshop play the slow game of having EVERY retail outlet (both owned and independent) acting as purely recruitment opportunities and as fast as possible moving them to GW’s online presence to support their purchases.
3) Games Workshop Ditch independent retailing entirely and completely go it alone.
My gut tells me its number 2, but that only works when you have the other Online retailers out of the way.
The upshot of all of this is it’s been very bad for the customer, there have been absolutely no winners in this, and if you want to start a blame game, that blame is going to spread around a lot of the stakeholders involved in this sorry mess.
A very good series of points.
If their management can get it in their head, that they need to revamp their management systems, and strategies, then they can “fix” this mess.
Firstly, they need to review their KPIs. KPIs are great, and it makes me sad to see so many insiders so hateful of KPIs. Without KPIs you don’t know how your business is going. You can’t steer the ship with any accuracy. From the response of ex GW staff though, the KPIs are wrong. Not incorrectly derived, but driving the wrong behaviour.
After the move from “RPG” games to “wargames”, GW focused (successfully) on recruiting into the hobby. However this success was because their “old” customers wanted products GW didn’t really make any more, and they needed customers interested in their new products. It was a great move, at the time. To still focus on it now, after 20 years of acquiring customers, with the direct and deliberate side effect of neglecting those customers is poor business acumen.
Give me a reason to buy from the GW store, and I’ll happily do that. Bring back skullz or something similar. There’s no excuse not to have a loyalty program for orders on the GW site. But if the only benefit is that I know more money is going to GW, then why would I pay more for that? It’s not like they run events, have gaming tables, or anything else that actually helps me enjoy the hobby, aside from products.
I suspect the frustrating thing, is going to be seeing how quickly they will turn the ship around. Or will they all still be drinking the cool aid as it sinks?
I remember when I started in the hobby, the local GW store while not huge, at least had tables. You could watch games between players who were obviously not new. That is what drew me into the hobby, not watching a squad of orks vs a squad of space marines played over and over by a redshirt and a new prospective customer.
Evening – Can we get a show on this if possible please from you guys in the sense of a backstage or weekender extra?
Hi
Firstly in regards to this problem GW is having is I think they have to realise GW is not a hobby, wargaming is a hobby
What I think their problem has been is that they become to narrow. Epic, Warmaster etc were great games and played well but GW in their wisdom decided to dump them and place all their eggs in 2 baskets
Having started and finished my 40K experience with Rogue Trader and from what I see now the ruleset could have done with a complete rule rewrite about 20 years ago to make it into a fast playable skirmish game which went back to its roots of a dirty nasty dark future SciFi game
The prices GW and FW charge for their figures certainly doesnt help especially when other manufacturers are producing stuff that is better quality and at a far cheaper price
If they did release Warmaster Gothic etc again I would most certainly buy it as I know would a lot of other gamers who left GW games many years ago but again they would need to compete with other manufacturers out there on their prices
I will leave you with a quote by Gary Chalk which I think sums it up
“As you know fun is no longer allowed unless it has accidentally slipped into a set of rules by accident. If this does occur, it’s usually weeded out by the fifteenth edition. “
Here is the problem I have with option 2 in the US. Almost every city has an LGS. Very few have a GW store. By pushing people to your online store you are not providing an incentive for the LGS to support your product. After the way GW has treated its independent retailers at the brick and mortar level, there is a lot of trust that needs to be rebuilt. They should shutter their retail outlets. They are selling to an ever smaller customer base and directly competing against their independent retailers.
They should have exclusives such as their limited edition products via online. These are alternate models or upscaled products that anyone can buy at their LGS. They need to reduce their prices or at least have small army bundles that are cheaper so retailers can move product. They need to reduce the number of packages (space marines are incredibly bloated for nearly identical models) so the independent retailer can reduce their shelf space. They need to engage the community and volunteers to promote the product.
They need to alter the rules for faster play and having players engaged. It still has a clunky roll to hit, roll vs. toughness, then roll vs . Armor. They should look at getting rid of the toughness. And yes they did cut out at least 1 roll from 2nd to 3rd addition by removing random damage (and the force field saves). Maybe switch to d10s and combine to hit, damage and toughness into each one similar to what happens in space hulk. Have players alternate moving units.
If need be have multiple rule sets for different size battles. The design is still somewhat dated to when players had 30 to 40 models each and the original rogue trader was a total of 30 or less. Have a skirmish rule set intended for beginning players that have 1 to 2 boxes apiece. Then scale up to a battle level where players have more units and options (100 figure or so with a few vehicles). Then finally go to an Apocalypse level where you have flyers and hundreds of figures.
Why not create rules for multiplayer so more than one person can play at a time? Have each player move one or two units at a time, then go to the next player. This way going first isn’t the huge advantage.
Have a public playtest to reengage players. Put up a blog explaining rule changes as you progress in the playtest. Be open to criticism and be wary over bias to favor one army over another. Use white dwarf and warhammer visions to Try new scenarios and rulesets. Have optional rules that are not tournment legal, but encourage players to experiment.
I think several years of GW being the gaming bully have left it in a position of ‘The skeletal grip of a corpse’s hand round eggs trying to hatch*.” The go forth a sue policy of GW have to quote Warren, ‘By this stage, EU Law protects those who are doing it and there is no easy way either structurally or legally to backtrack.
Arrogance (and potentially a worry about litigation or falling foul of trade laws – even if that wasn’t the intention) means they decide not to work on a platform of cooperation, but rather enforcement.
Co-operation could have been a very quick fix.
Enforcement takes time as its done in very slow stages, where the legal team has to constantly find new legal ways to turn the screw.
To back up enforcement, the business model may need to be changed (either for good or at least in the interim) to increase its effectiveness, and prepare the company for the next step.’
Makes a, lot of sense and covers a lot of perceived issues with GW, the whole debacle with Chapterhouse was, one feels the final nail in the coffin with the hammer blows coming from the various C&D letters they sent out to forums and fan sites. This has repeatedly made clear that they are right and own all right ok, its their property, yet having a fan base is exactly that ‘having fans’ and as such taking the attitude of ‘their our toys and you can’t play with them anymore’ does no one any good.
Fan sites show off your products, they show support for your goods, they show support for you as a company so going at them from a legal point of view shows a poor choice of response to people who buy your stuff. It’s also showing in the legal spats against others who use words like Space Marine in their own works, because you don’t understand the history of what you have. WHFB & WH40k are built on the ideas and concepts of others that the originators took from the ideas of others who they loved and appreciated, who caught their imagination and took those ideas in new ways and so was born the early concepts that has become the popular monster we all love to hate.
However, it doesn’t have to be like this many of the new companies, especially those that have older GW ex staff, seem to understand and remember those days when it was a two way communication path between, gamer, fan and company. They talk to and listen to the buyers, the fans and develop systems and miniatures that work for both. They encourage fan fiction and communication, community hubs and competition. They understand people buy into what you are offering.
People play whatever version they prefer, they always will and the Oldhammer movement has shown this, a lot of us remember when the gaming stores where that and the smaller games like Blood bowl and AHQ and Space Hulk drew you in they were whole systems that required just what wa sin the box, however that was an advantage as people whould buy this as a gift and so you would play, get into the system and then think about more want more so you looked at the bigger worlds, bought more miniatures and so grew into the hobby, so maybe this is something to take into account, and look to actually reboot the whole system. Both shop and game, talk to players find out what you and players like, what you want. Support the community and encourage, offer the stores as a place to get involved and get the staff on-board and see what they offer not see them as the drones.
But what will happen, sadly more than likely its sold in pieces, and so little pieces of the pie go to various interested parties that do not understand what they have but think they can make money from it. And then it dies.
*Quellcrist Falconer
Its interesting that google was used, while I agree with a lot of what was said in article.
I feel the larger picture is resource management, just like google goes to China to create a search engine to partner with the Chinese government.
China turns around and steals its software then gives google the boot.
People go to china to manufacture goods because slave labor is cheap. Nobody cares about the end result of empowering a tyrannical and totally mad dictatorship such as china.
The booty is cheap lets get some, Hey its not me getting my ass kicked for not making spongebob squarepants jock straps fast enough…
To be fair the corporation has had life breathed into it, to the point that it is a monster we have created. While I am no fan of the choices made by GW. I still understand why some of them have taken place.
If GW were to allow online retailers to go on gun slinging prices in order to move product faster. It would have been costly to GW in the long run.
This would have eventually destroyed all the GW stores around the world because who would use them. When you could go online and order your plastic for pennies on the dollar.
I mean you could put a price list in effect but who would really honor that.
Nobody, So what they did was start limiting the ability of what online retailers could purchase. At the same time build a ton of GW stores across the states for example.
Either way the choice that had to be made was costly.
Among a hosts of other moves it is obvious to me now that there is still trouble for the game maker. Chances are they saw it coming probably way before us.
Another resource is the customer so it appears to me that it is a management problem.
Now you have a flurry of other war games out there some of which I feel do it better in some aspects and are gaining ground in other less desired aspects everyday.
Both google and games workshop are facing blow back from making bad choices.
With the global markets jumping off a cliff atm, it is amazing that they are doing as good as they are.
Considering most developed nations are feeling the burn to the tune of almost a third of each one are currently unemployed. This is only my opinion and is only meaningful to myself so not trying to step on toes here.
I am certain their are others with a better grasp than myself
There are a legion of differences between Google and GW. One that is key for me, is that Google actively seeks out new and interesting things to strengthen its company.
It will reach out and acquire 3rd parties and give them resources to do great things. They collaborate with other 3rd parties to do great things.
OK Google makes Billions, GW do not, but tech companies typically cost millions or billions, while companies in our industry cost 10’s or 100’s of thousands.
So I think the comparison is fair.
If GW were to demonstrate to their shareholders (and customers) that they were always looking for the next big thing and would invest to secure the best and most exciting developments, I wonder how that would effect the share price.
That’s pretty neat insight there my friend…
isn’t it the purpose of the corporation to feed upon itself or own kind by design.
For this is how it grows so any and all reach outs to third parties is in the end nothing more than a feeding frenzy.
Regardless of what size or scope in reference to money generated however when GW turned upon itself by with holding its product from third parties. As listed in above it broke this unspoken business rule.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHrhqtY2khc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHrhqtY2khc
Wow, there’s alot there (read all the posts, whew) and good points too. As a veteran gamer myself and one of the last hold outs to support GW (until recently), even after so many of my fellow gamers here in town gave up, I wish they could see the error of thier ways and correct themselves. However, they won’t and we all know it. They forgot what the hobby is about and who it is about. My youngest son (16) has many friends that like to play but won’t get into the hobby as it’s too expensive. Many of those who used to play, and enjoy getting together, either don’t play anymore at all or have splintered off into other games more friendly to gamers. Maybe they really did need to raise prices to the nutty levels they are now to save themselves, but if so that says volumes about thier own incompetence. What made them great was those independent local stores that got people involved and hooked, yet they are left flapping in the wind. A friend of mine said minatures are like my own version of crack, he may be right. However, GW has made it alot easier for me to get into rehab, so to speak. In the end the writing is on the wall and the end is nigh unless they have a true epiphany adn remake thier strategy. Have they asked themselves why there are so many GW refugees working for other companies now?
Well, I didn’t really say anything new but I got it off my chest, sigh. I just hope guys keep doing what you’re doing and make sure we have access to what’s happening in the hobby. Thnx!:)
The senior management at GW need to be replaced. Bring in new blood with fresh ideas that can inject something new and exciting back into the hobby. Maybe they won’t have a knee jerk reaction to this, although I think they might if their next financial report isn’t so good either. You never know, a bigger company might buy them out..
Remember, they knew about the lower performance long before they released the results. So plans would have already been afoot.
Big middle management changes are on the way, but no word yet on changes at the top level.
Although they are advertising for people
http://careers.games-workshop.com/2014/01/15/customer-experience-interim-2-years-nottingham-uk/
looking at their jobs available hey have been looking for a mini’s designer since September
Pricing, chapterhouse and attacking fan sites have all controbuted to this stage of events it has to be felt.
They are constantly trying to reinvent the wheel, with new glossy paint colours instead of building the rest of the the vehicle and expanding the gaming market.
Chapterhouse, well that was entertaining for many of us to watch GW get a bit of a bloody nose, honestly, could have been handled better IMHO, but how maybe by buying them up on the quiet and using them as a r&d and prototyping company, GW due to its size must take at least a year to get a product from concept to cleared for manufacturing and then it’s looking at another year before release. Chapterhouse being small could do a lot of this in about 6 months, meaning that you use them to test the market, see if concepts sell and if they do closing it down slowly and transfer to GW main, allow gamers to use both products but say only GW released articles for campaigns and competitions in store or store based.
Thinking better of it as telling everyone that a license deal with CH has been arranged as and working it as being a subsidiary and tax option.
Support the community, if you are not going to support Specialist games, then at least support the community, Blood Bowl has a fan based league and living-rules, so get in touch and look to release miniatures for it, speak to the community and like Mantic have ‘Pathfinders’ they support your product because they like and want to buy your product.
Re-establish the community part of the site and the hobby, that has to be key, GW have aggressively attacked fan sites and such yet forget that players are fans and want to support the hobby they are buying into. Would have been cheaper one feels to have a community liaison staff member employed at minimum wage talking to fan sites and asking to make changes rather than expensive executive account lawyers filling paperwork and court actions.
The other problem is the lack of innovation and progression, its a bloody static game these days, the historical and specialist games at least showed a trend to think outside the box, and to consider those gamers who had moved away from the market.
Could even have looked to license these out and help invest in smaller innovative companies that you could tap over time to help expand your own market, Warlord and Foundry have both shown the historical market it buoyant; but no, they stick to the two main 40k and FB with the buy an army and that’s it your done policy, yet at the same time keep pushing prices so it remains just out of everyday reality achievement of the buyer.
The old blue book for those that remember Rogue Trader, encouraged smaller forces that you built and over time grew, that was part of the fun to develop your force, but now its buy a ready army off the shelf, and at a time when many people have to consider between eating and heating a home. Not a good market strategy.
On the whole, time will tell out here one thinks.
Blood Bowl is a great example. A very easy to support global community (NAF all volunteers) and they did their best to make it hard for them (wwebsite name, logo change, no more warhammer world), ultimately stopping them issuing dice (that major threat to the bottom line). But look into that community and even when it was poorly tolerated a massive amount of negative words were said about GW, almost a necessary evil really. Even allowing such things to continue can’t be done in a culture of perceived hostility. The change that people want to see is so far reaching I doubt the company has it in them.
For a company that prides itself on making great miniatures, premium kits, I think the period from Jan 2012 to mid 2013 really hit them. Nearly all their army wide releases were consistently poor or average, something seriously was wrong with GW’s designers and sculptors (or their orders). Sure stuff like the Forgefiend has grown on us but growing on us is not the same as instant “I must buy”. The list of terrible models is long during that Dark Age, before the Tau and Eldar releases marked a purely average release rather than a terrible release, followed by the Lizardmen – a stunning release and back to form.
Going for a year and a half making technically brilliant but dodgy or average looking models can only hurt you. I am sad that the recent Tyranid release was more like the Tau and Eldar’s lackluster release but meh. GW have some SERIOUS problems. The Tau, Eldar and Tyranids were all average releases but devoid of horrific clusterf*cks, which makes them stand out from past releases. The Space Marine release, ignore the Centurions (why they exist will remain a mystery) and it’s still an average release though Space Marines can only look so much, and the Sternguard are pretty damn good. The Dark Elves and Lizardmen were both stunning releases. But something is STILL seriously wrong. They’ve grown out of their idiotic phase of making Flying High Elf Chariots and just awful, awful Daemon models, but they’re not as they use to be Dec 2012 and before, where their army releases were amazing. Dark Eldar, Blood Angels, Necrons, Ogres, Tomb Kings, Skaven, just remember the joy of those releases! It’s not *just* the prices, it’s a lack of the actual will to make GREAT models as they used to pre-2012.
For a company that is supposed to be making premium stuff, collectors and painters more than gamers, that becomes a problem as you can buy superior models from other “lone-ranger” type guys who make their models in high-quality Resin (which allows for higher detail than plastic) at comparable or even cheaper prices. I can just look around at PP’s stuff and pick one a model that takes my fancy. I can order online from Puppets War, Kromlech, Anvil et al for yes pricey resin but no more pricey than GW! And I KNOW those guys would love to drop their prices the moment they can, to attract more customers.
And if you’re in it for a “great complex game” … 40K is now a mess, with all these dataslates and BS supplements confusing that frak out of everyone and lessening the game-quality (which may well be GW’s aim anyway, to remove competitive play). It’s a shame became both the current editions of the games core rulesets are probably as good as they’re gonna get without a massive shake up.
40k makes me sad – to be honest i didn’t like the change from 2nd (with power tweaks) to 3rd edition and never managed to get back in. But hell, just re-package the Epic rules and you have a system with list building, special rules and an actual enjoyable challenging game on the table!
The single core mechanism which ruins the game (40K) and creates an entire eh “meta of stressful bullshit” imo is their change from good old fashion Armour Modifiers to “AP” which created a great racial divide between Powered Armoured Armies and Everything Else.
When you write a list you *have* to develop it trying to get AP3 or better, as much as possible. When we rate a new model it all comes down to “how well does it deal with 3+Armour Saves?” it all revolves around “how well can I bite through 3+ armour”. (Now my memory is questioning whether or not it was always like this, come to think of it…)
I don’t know what other people think, but this single, strange, rule drastically changes how you interact with the game and list building, and even buying, in a negative way.
2nd to 3rd was a big wtf in my opinion .. stuff that needed fixing was hand to hand and the sustained fire mechanic, atleast those are the only two things that really botheted me too much. Epic looks to have many of the features 40k probably would have if the designers had more influence over the rules. These days its just abstract and stupid. Hitting stuff at nearly point blank range on 6+ and call it overwatch .. abstract and stupid as it gets.
And so it comes back to community support or the hostility a situation of us against them, with even those long standing fans taking a hard look at the company. The ranges have been more regular fare and to be frank, they seem to have made a legal business model out c&d p1ssing everyone off. To be a little blunt…
*just to point out, in 2013 GW did NOT carry out an across-the-board annual price hike.
Make from that what you will eh?
While I totally love the input in regard to the zipper catches skin article concerning Games Workshop…
One must ponder that maybe this will cause the company to not only respect free online support from places like here and miniwargaming but maybe even work with these guys a little in the future.
After all everyone here is just people who love the hobby and want to further it at the end of the day.
I do think we all miss the most important part of this. The senior management are gamers. Problem is their game of choice is not anything to do with the games they produce. They like to play stocks and shares. The guys at the top are insular regarding actual product and market. Nothing you say or even do is going to get through when the guys at the top making the decisions have got no interest in the product just the profit it makes.
Yeah when your in sales meetings and GW big wigs are referring to your beloved space marines and other races as ‘the product’ (litterally those words) and the margin made on them….well showed their real love and passion (or lack of) for the world and IP so many people love
Was very disillusioned by it all from GW senior leadership who were at a total disconnect from staff below and tbh the real world
So it comes back to a game of two halfs, the gamers and the profiteers. And as has it has been said so many times before if you are not happy with GW, take your money else where, for fantasy try KoW or God of Battles, to sci-fi look elsewhere so many systems, look at the smaller systems like DA or Mantic.
Until people start to think with their wallets and make a loud enough noise that says we have had enough, nothing will change. Miniatures are product, rules are product, that much is simple, nothing different to a football team. However, supporters understand that by not buying or visiting matches they have an impact.
So stop buying the product and support others, look to friends and social media and set up alternative local clubs, play other games, create your own systems and make so much noise that GWHQ takes notice in the only way they know how, by their profit margins.
So make some noise.
@mattalard.
To be fair this has been happening for the last 8 years.(GW plc has continually lost sales volumes since 2005!)
However, while GW plc corporate management could make up the shortfall in revenue just by increasing retail prices over the rate of inflation, and cutting costs by reducing staffing numbers.(And giving themselves and share holders bonuses, because they had nothing better to spend their profits on apparently…)
Now the customer base who still believe GW plc offer them value for money is too small to keep revenue at a consistent level.
GW plc need to add value to their product range,to grow the customer base.
Or they will continue to loose revenue and market share. Its that simple really…
I mean its hard to separate those who have valid game issues from those who are uptight because the only sex they get is internet porn. Thus you have the real reason why they rage…
Regardless,
There are things Games Workshop has done that I like there are also things performed by the company which I despise, the bottom line is a simple one with the drop in net worth. There will be some rapid fire changes coming our way.
I seriously doubt that at the end of it all you will see a global departure from the hobby or what this game company has to offer game wise.
However it is painfully clear that to most ,this hobby is to big to just go away and we have too many great game companies following suit and growing as well. So the drop could also be applied presence by other great game makers who really kick ass.
Excuse me while I whip out me jimmy and pop the computer screen with it:)
SMACK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtonY7I92PE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtonY7I92PE
Seriously what if this drop has nothing to do with Games Workshop but more with the market itself
Meet Peter Schiff on London real…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSj4tpu0kYU
+10 power for Peter Schiff reference
When a lot of these smaller companies started up they showed gamers just what is possible, GW should have taken note them. However, like most major companies, they are slow to react this is the key issue, size is not always a good thing.
The compalinancy of GW is also not helping. GW used to push the upper limit with ideas and ranges, but it’s more mehh…. These days. The Lizardmen’s range was nice and had some nice bits, but it seems to be few and far between. I still remember someones comparison between Red Box Games figure and the GW horse faced female dark elf, still LoL with that one but it made the point very well. So many figures look bloody awful, and at top end price.
I have to say one thing. I phase in and out of Warhammer 40k/Fantasy a lot. Everytime I go into a Games Workshop, I go in, usually dumping all of my memories to the side, acting as a new customer. Every Games Workshop I go to has only 1 staff member who is very friendly, and very in-depth in explaining the game in as simple-term as it can get(in a system that is very in-depth beyond chess). I immediately get hooked and excited until i look at the back side of a small box of soldiers. I secretly say to myself(these Lizardmen warriors rose 5$ since last year, These Carnifexes are bundled 2-in-a-box for 95$ instead of 45$ each. My whole rules-set is now re-written and I cannot play warhammer 40k in GW stores without current rule sets which will cost me now, 70$ for core rules and 45$ for the codex and 40$ for the optional rules set for the tyranids alone).
A person buying a starter set for 100$, codex for 40$, paints for 30$, will find their wallet sinking more because they now want some details on their models(which will probably line Hobby Lobby or Michels’ pockets by another 30$). 200$ and 3 hours of time painting their models with 1 layer of paint looking ugly is hard to keep a newbie’s interests high in a game they can’t have any choice but to play the squad they own, strict from the box. it gets worse when their first game is against a hardcore veteran inside the game store who will only make you ‘feel’ like you were getting close to winning but they stomp you down outright.
At the end of the day, new customers aren’t invited to this game because the price of the game is per player. sure, they can split the costs a lot, simply by buying the box set and glue for 115$ after tax, but that doesn’t get you scenery or any pretty-looking painted models. It doesn’t even give you the feeling that you paid for a complete game after walking into a store with 2 walls of ‘critters’, that will cost you the price of 1 or 2 codex books.
At the end of the day for returning customers, they see their rule book is old as well as their codex, as well as the release of expansion rules sets now for the books. Returning customers are on a tightrope of forking over 110 or 150 in books as well as another 300 in models to keep up with the current meta(paraphrased money-sink), which is inviting to only the few with the plastic crack mindset.
I really hope GW does not go out of business. Yes I was a hater, but after coming back in to the hobby after 6 years I am taken care of by the Manager at the local GW. He has given me so much more quality advice and support through understanding Warhammer 40k with the new 7th edition which I love. GW are an excellent source to start wargaming. You should have seen my sons face when I stacked up several boxes of Warhammer 40,000 kits including the starter set back in the GW store in 2004 to get him in to the game after only one intro game from a GW staff member. I feel safe and secure with GW and its products, there is no where in my local town centre where I can get an intro game from the other small to big companies for free. To get an intro game from other companies I need to subscribe to a wargames club and pay the weekly subs before I get through the door. I love the other companies miniatures and games and the starter sets are amazing but the accessibility which GW offer to introducing someone to the wargaming hobby is immense and so welcoming and you feel part of the hobby. GW is vital and crucial to our wargaming industry. They need to stay around and I bet most of you who are experienced once started out with a starter set from GW. The price of products that GW offer yes I would agree are expensive but how about take this view. Spend a month painting your Tactical squad to get almost a professional look to it. Spend a month working out and learning how that tactical squad works. Then the next pay day buy another box in say 8 or 10 months you will have 8 or 10 units which you know and understand and are painted to a professional standard. Give the time to your hobby rather buying in bulk. There is no GW staff member will try and get you to empty your back account in their shop. They are there also to advise how to get the best out of the hobby. And going on talking about other games in a GW, would you go in to a Renault car Show room and start talking about the latest Vauxhall to the sales guy. You cant go in to PC world and start playing with the software or play a game or try a game out that you bought a couple of weeks ago.
Well this is obviously a topic of great interest to a lot of people. I find it interesting that when GW was growing and planting new stores everywhere … the neigh sayers were out there saying old gamers have been forgotten. Now they are downsizing they are doing something else wrong. Time will tell if t heir strategies pay off. One thing I will say @warzan did not discuss is the previous strategy did stop the flood of cheaper models but it also chocked the growth of the hobby. What I mean by that is now in the general populace the GW brand has shrunk unless you go looking for it. If they want to increase sales they need to bring people to the hobby and moving stores out of mainstream shopping areas and pulling out there presence from big chains of toy hobby and computer game stores as well as removing white dwarf from the shelves of your local news agents has dropped the business under the radar of the common person. Therefore growth outside of th ed gaming market is unlikely. The current hamming market is flooded with choice, many a company that does not charge 58.00AU for a single hero figure. So they are not compeditively priced for the small niche market in which they exist and while they can argue they are the top shelf quality miniature company … many would disagree further fracturing their appeal in this small marketplace.
I for one love the age of sigmar game … although I am yet to see the shinny that tempts over th ed line to invest. I guess like all things time will tell on that one.
As an outsider to GW for the past 5 years. In order to survive they need to win back their people with reasonable (not cheap) priced minis and in order to thrive I think they need to expand beyond the gaming world.
Just my 2 cents 🙂