Weekender XLBS: Hail Caesar! Getting Psyched For Ancient Wargaming!
February 1, 2015 by lloyd
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Happy Sunday!
Drop assault is ok, nothing ground breaking, but worth a look.
Lloyd – It was Terrahawks dude, with the dulcet tones of Windsor Davies voicing the good guys drone commander Sgt major 😉
Beat me to it, that and stingray the basis of many a morning
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nJ2vyXKOOE
Yeah of course :), loved that show
Hail mighty Cesar! Lloyd one of my favorite time periods. We were just talk about ancient Rome and building a Coliseum and a Circus Maximus for chariot racing on 28th scale. John model looks incredible job well done.
Also: I studied the post-Roman period in the British Isles when I studied Archaeology and it’s fascinating.
One point: the form of Christianity that was linked with Emperor Constantine (interestingly, from the province of Brittania…) was markedly different to that which prospered in Ireland during the Dark Ages. Whereas the Roman institution spread throughout the Empire, the Irish tradition arrived after travelling up the Atlantic coast and is seen as being a much less rigid body than what became the Catholic church. This “Celtic Christianity” was effectively subsumed into the Church sometime around the 9th century when representatives of the two sects met in England…
@dawfydd Statue of him outside York Minster – city of Eburacum (York) was not just Constantine’s birthplace but is very likely to have been the temporary administrative capital of the Roman Empire until Constantine could sweep through to Mediolanium and into Italy proper. Interesting point you make – Celtic Christianity’s monastic nature allowed it to survive on the fringes of the world, the traditional Roman religion was for the most part exterminated with the Saxon conquest. Mind you, far from Celtic Christianity being subsumed, it was the Irish system that ultimately ended up converting first the Scots, then the Northumbrians and the other Saxon kingdoms until all the British Isles abandoned the Old Gods 🙂 Only really when Britain was converted that Rome could seriously consider reintegrating both us and the Franks into the fold, taking the archetypal Monastic system of the Celts to heart. Bizarrely, it’s English missionaries, educated in the Celtic school of thought that ultimately converted the Germans when Roman missionaries had failed (usually getting brutally murdered in the process) for several hundred years…
Thunderhawks! Thats one of the biggest blasts from the past I’ve had for a while Lloyd!
Terrahawks, of course! Thanks @dawfydd ;]
I’ve always found it fascinating how the “classic” Roman Legionary (segmented armour, that iconic curved rectangular shield) is really a very narrow slice of the army in general, and how earlier and later legion equipment more closely resembles that used by the Auxilia units….
Question of supply. Roman army was supplied by I think 4 major manufacturers (Manufactoria), in the later era some of these factories get destroyed, suffer supply issues themselves so were no longer in the position to keep churning out lorica segmentata (segmented armour of the legionaries) which is bizarre, as it was actually cheaper to produce than chain mail… Something you may find interesting, believe there’s been some interesting archaeological evidence coming out of Germany at the minute from a number of known Auxilia fortresses on the frontier, no legionary presence for miles yet they’ve found bits of segmented armour. If the factories could produce a surplus to the needs of the Legions, who is to say that the Auxilia couldn’t be kitted out in much the same way. Would just be the level of training that would be different 🙂
The classic depiction of legionnaires and auxiliaries and their equipment is not that well supported by the evidence. There’s massive uncertainty over it and even over what their roles were. As wargaming can’t have that kind of uncertainty, we’ve kind of picked a horse and ridden it lol
Welcome aboard, Lloyd! I’m an ancient historian so if you want some pointers and recommendations then just send me a PM 🙂
Definitely go with @redben on this, Lloyd. I appreciate the mention, John 🙂 and yes, I am “conversant” in Classical histories, but this is absolutely redben’s neck of the woods here.
Great show! Always love to see the BoW team dip their toes into the chilly water of historical gaming! 😀
If Sci-fi is the beer of gaming, and fantasy the wine,
Then let wyrd be vodka that tastes of turpentine,
And let us all raise a glass, and toast To World War Two,
For its a brandy, thick as mud, with a hint of superglue.
Napoleonics have their fans, bright colours on parade
But rules abound, to bog it down – a cat-piss lemonade.
Horror of course, isn’t scary, but much beloved by some
It’s pretty weak, timid and meek, all coke without the rum.
no, there’s no finer game, in all those here, to play, if you’re able,
To set up a force from history’s arse, the oldest on the table,
Yes, ancients are it , the cream of the crop, though finding the models is risky,
But there’s no better way to savor your plays, truly ancients are gaming’s fine whiskey.
Hail @lloyd ! This is exciting, it’s great to see you get hyped up about Romans! The HBO Rome show is actually pretty accurate, it was a joint BBC/HBO production and one of the conditions was that a historian act as EP on the set to ensure accuracy – it’s not perfect but it’s remarkably better than most – as close, I would argue, as you get for film. On the original DVDs you can watch the series in “All roads lead to Rome” mode where factoids pop up to tell you what is historical and what they had to fudge for drama (mostly the first) and at certain points you can hit buttons to activate mini-info bars or mini-documentaries to give you background on what’s going on in certain scenes (culturally, politically, ritually etc.)
I certainly hope this spurns warlord into bringing some of those ancients back into stock 🙂
Happy Sunday!
Happy Sunday guys! 🙂
@lloyd Think out of the box when looking at your Romans… try looking at other mini’s in other scales 15mm or even dare i say 6mm… there is life beyond Warlord.
ok should have watched a bit more…lol but rules wise Fields of Glory is far better than Hail Caeser as a ruleset
Hey Lloyd you could always get your Romans and use them as an army of man in Kings of War
West Wind Miniatures does a range of Late Roman/Arthurian miniatures..
There is a recreation of a Roman fort in Coventry, which is well worth a visit. I do have a stack of photos, which I’ll try and upload in a thread on the forums.
The Empire collapsed due to a number of reasons, that included econmic, mass migration, crop failures, stretched resources and new archaeological evidence has shown that in the later stages of he Empire there was a period of climatic change. This was probably a factor in some the migrations of people, another factor which is covered in the book, Justian’s Flea was the emergence of the plague.
All of these would have placed a massive strain on the empire and it collapsed under the weight of them all.
I do like the Roman period, it presents a wide variety of different armies to battle against and has the potential for some good campaigning.
@lloyd – loving the coverage! massive fan of historical era, couple of bits you may find useful:
time frames.
Republican Rome is the early stuff, so from the founding through to the Marian Reforms. Rome for a long time had a citizen army, you had the Hastati (young Romans, not much equipment but deffo the fittest and some of the strongest) in the front line, then the Principes, these were older Romans, more sort of middle class and could afford better equipment. These formed the core of the army. Then you had the Triarii, the very best in the army, best equipment, fought like Greek hoplites and were only sent in at the very last minute. The light armoured people you see in the Victrix box are the Velites, the absolute dregs of Roman society, peasants who couldn’t afford armour what-soever (but still had a duty as citizens to fight) so they fight as skirmishers in front of the army. The wolf skins allegedly were a means of being able to hide in the long grass of the Italian plains, from a distance they’d look like a flock of sheep or something, only when you got close and you realized what they were… You mentioned the Etruscans, Victrix Allied Legions box is just that. Once Rome conquered it’s neighbours they started levying forces from the conquered peoples, people like the Tarantines (who were exceptional horsemen) would provide the Roman Army with cavalry, while other states in the south of modern-day Italy (which at the time was actually called Magna Graecia – greater Greece. lot of these cities were Greek colonies that absorbed the local Italian tribesmen and created something new) Republican Roman era deals with the wars against Carthage, some of the wars with the Celts and Germans to the north (everywhere north of the river Rubicon was for a long time Celtic territory, known as Cisalpine Gaul, or Gaul beyond the Alps) so all that needed to be conquered to secure the borders. Also have wars with the Spaniards. Carthage had colonies in Spain, so to take out the Carthaginians, they first weakened them by picking off the colonies. Problem is, once they took over the Carthaginian colonies they ended up at war with the locals in much the same way that Carthage had been. Rome is able to beat Carthage but gets its ass kicked in Spain by a huge army of Numantines, a Spanish tribe from the north. The old Citizen Army system (Hastati, Principes, Triarii) just wasn’t working so a bloke called Marius instigated a series of reforms, the Marian Reforms to create Rome’s first ever professional army. Would still be supported by Auxillia from Rome’s allies, whether they be Italian or Celtic cavalry, Spanish infantry, Libyan infantry etc but the core would be the new model army. The Ceasarian era stuff represents the new model army at the tail end of the Republican era, this is when Rome starts to look east, they conquer the Greeks, the Macedonians, go into the Balkans, Anatolia, Judea, then Ceasar invades Gaul while Pompeii Magnus (Pompeii the Great conquers Spain). Crassus, another famous general (it was actually him, Pompeii and Sulla before Sulla broke off and caused another civil war, at which point the young Caesar takes his spot in the Triumvirate, the military council of 3 that took over for a while) leads an army east against the Parthians (the successors to the Persians) and the Seleucids (Alexander the Great’s Greeks that conquered modern day Syria and Iraq) Problem is, military reform wasn’t enough, they needed political reform. The empire got too big. Throw into that equation a new professional army (the men of the Legions actually swore their oaths to the Legion Legate (bit like a colonel/general) who supposedly acted under the mandate of the Senate and People of Rome (SPQR, Senatus, Populus que Romanus). That’s how you get the civil war. Different generals, different ideas of how the country should be run kicking the crap out of each other until Octavian eventually wins (becomes the first ever Emperor, Caesar Augusta, or Caesar the f*kin awesome)
Word of advice, the Wargames Factory stuff isn’t great. Was some of the first attempts at plastic kits and they easily look a bit dated compared to the newer stuff from Warlord or Victrix. One thing I would consider is the Celtic chariots and the Roman cavalry, the cavalry just need head swaps and they look great. Victrix Carthaginians look goof as Libyans and other north African nations.
On the Celts however, the naked horde thing is a bit over done. Sam could try looking at Gripping Beast’s Dark Age range and mixing them in with the Warlord stuff. The normal Dark Age warriors make great tribesmen whilst a box of Vikings (with a bit of conversion work) would make for great Hearth Guard. Barbarian tribes were huge, tens of thousands, so you had the hordes of tribesmen but every tribe would have an elite of a couple of hundred professionals, usually aristocrats who could afford the very best swords and the very best armour. Why did Rome spend so much time looking at new armour? Celtic steel was the best in Europe, it could cut through pretty much anything the Italians could make. Can do the horde if you want, but you don’t have to be pigeon holed with the Barbarians.
Sorry. Bit of a diatribe but any historical coverage whatsoever really gets me going hahaha
Just to refine some of that impressive wall of text lol. The Republican period covers the deposing of the last king, Tarquinius Superbus, in about 509BC through to Octavian’s victory in the Battle of Actium in 31BC. We’re told that the Romans fought in the hoplite style until the fourth century BC when was replaced by the manipular formation of three lines with the ability to rotate between them. Originally the lines were determined by wealth, then later by experience.
Gaius Marius reformed the army when he was consul in 107BC to solve a manpower crisis. This is the basis of the Caesarian and Early Imperial armies. The defeat of Greek kingdoms was prior to this. Marius was involved in the earliest civil war against Sulla (who is the fella in my profile pic). Sulla won the second civil war in which Pompeii and Crassus made their names though they weren’t a triumvirate with Sulla. Pompeii went on to bring eastern Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, and Israel under Roman control. It brought him into conflict with a faction in the Senate who resented how powerful he had become. This caused the formation of the First Triumvirate with Crassus and Caesar. Caesar pushed through their legislation in exchange for command of the provinces of Cisalpine Gaul (Gaul on this side of the Alps), and Transalpine Gaul (Gaul on the other side of the Alps). This is the background the Asterix books and the Rome TV show begins towards the end of this period.
It also forms the background to part four of my article series on ancient battles that changed the work. Condensing it into 2000 words is proving a struggle lol.
ah my mistake 🙂 cheers @redben! so much to consider, about 1000 years really
Like I say, it was just to refine a few points 🙂
great show\ as always
If looking at ancients rules – have a look at ‘Sword and Spear’, excellent set of rules, great C&C system.
I’ve learned what little I know about ancient Rome from the Rome Total War games. It’s worth having a play of the latest one (Rome 2: Emperor edition). It’s probably not historically accurate worth a damn (especially since the whole idea of it is you’re basically rewriting history), but it gives you a good idea of the archetypical ‘styles’ of the various groups of the time and how they linked together.
Happy Sunday guys is there bow clan on drop assault ?
Happy Sunday guys. For a good range of Republican Romans check out Aventine miniatures. And Little Big Man studios for some superb shield transfers. You can even use an Elephant In your army too!
I have Republican Romans from Aventine. Quality stuff.
The rules you want to try are ‘To the Strongest!’ a new set by Simon Miller, an independent British games author. You can find more information on them here: https://www.facebook.com/TotheStrongestWargaming?fref=ts and here http://bigredbatshop.co.uk/.
Simon and his cohorts ran demo’s at shows across the country (UK) last year to great acclaim, and they intend to continue this year. If you want to see an entire Roman legion on the table this the set of rules for you. Quick to learn, intuitive in action, and historically excellent I commend these to all of you.
Hey Sam, he has a wife you know…… Her name is incontinentia….
Incontinentia Buttox!
Pfft!
@bow …just a little update on my tech problems from last weeks xlbs…don´t know if you changed something…but this time the surroundings where much less detailed…but the three of you where much better to look at…so all in all a not the quality of the frontstage 1080p…but much better to look at than last weeks xlbs
Another fun XLBS. Funny that you should talk about how cool the Romans are, and Horus Heresy at the same time. The more you think about it, the more you realise how much of an influence Roman history was / is on the writing of the 40k background.
The Roman armies that were self sufficient have their parrallel in the Great Crusade and the Space Marine Legion expeditions. The all-conquering legions expanding rapidly and then the Empire coming apart over disagreements over how it should be ruled when ambitious generals fall out is again in history and the HH.
It’s not just the equipment and the style of the tabards and things that GW have copied from history! (Which of course is why it’s as good as it is!)
The Roman civil war sounds interesting, I wonder if both sides had the same colours? I’m going to find out more about it. Cool weekender guys! 🙂
Great show packed with cool topics. Roman history is the best when you dwell into it. I would say it is a never ending learning story with numerous topics like army, culture, religion, politics, everyday life… Hmmm…. I think you just got me into Hail Caesar @lloyd
A very entertaining show guys with a bit of history chucked in for good measure.
A list of battles in and around the Roman Empire for you Lloyd.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Rome
Ugh, you lost me at micro transactions
I really enjoyed this edition. As a historian and historical wargamer I enjoyed the banter but it would be nice for you guys to get a ancient/dark ages/medieval and renaissance historical wargamer on to show what’s out there. Warlord, Wargames Factory, Foundry, Perry’s, Gripping Beast, Victrix and a group of smaller companies are producing beautiful metal and plastic figures these days.
Games like Saga, Hail Caesar, War and Empire all offer warfare at different scales, skirmish, battalion and army scale.
Have a look at Dark Age warfare in Ireland. Brutal stuff!
Unless it has already been mentioned above, I’d recommend taking a look at “Warfare in the Classical World: An Illustrated Encyclopedia of Weapons, Warriors and Warfare in the Ancient Civilizations of Greece and Rome” by John Warry. A great introduction for how the Romans (pre- and post-Empire) as well as other ancient armies organized and fought themselves. I was a bit of a noob myself when I started into Hail Caesar not too long ago, but that book really helped me learn the difference between cohorts, maniples, signifers, etc. Plus, the book includes some great pictures for painting ideas. Good luck!
Dude, I have that book. 😀 Great maps, paintings, diagrams of siege weapons, artifacts, and campaign overviews. Probably not as detailed as some others, as it covers such a length of time, but a great umbrella reference.
Does Firefox not play well with flow player? Its so hard to watch any videos any more.
Its not working for me on chrome either.
Should work fine on chrome but yet Firefox can be a bit Ropey with video
lol, my dad had at one stage 2 working brenguns, he wouldnt have been able to afford to fix the engines but had tracks, and bodies and other army stuff.
The ‘In Our Time’ archive can be quite useful to listen to while hobbying for zero effort historical background, even if it’s a bit anglocentric.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/2Dw1c7rxs6DmyK0pMRwpMq1/in-our-time-archive
Ancient Rome archive:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01hb0h8
The eastern empire became known as the Byzantine Empire and was ruled from Byzantium 🙂 The Emperor of Byzantium had a bodyguard made up of mercenary VIKINGS!!! Epic or what!
Ancients is my ultimate pipedream period. Biblicals (lots of chariots) would be the ultimate but a load of Roman content on this fine site would give me a massive smile!
As an historical gamer I really enjoyed the episode. Welcome to the Dark Side Lloyd! : )
Early Imperial Romans were my first wargaming and were great for pitching at a whole variety of opponents from anywhere in the 1st and 2nd Centuries AD, including the invasion of Britain. If you want a Roman Civil War check out the events of 66 AD following the death of Nero and the rise of Vespasian to power. Lots of opportunities there.
Caesarian Romans are better for 1st Century BC battles and the Civial wars between Caesar and Pompeii.
Whatever period you choose you can fight Romans against Roman as different individuals fought to become Emperor or Dictator of Rome.
For other rule sets check out either Impetus or Basic Impetus it’s free starter. They let you fight with your units on larger bases without individual figure removal thus allowing you to create diorama effects if you like. (Bit like Kings of a War.)
John
Terrahawks…sign me up!