Any minimalist thematic rules sets for wargames like OSR for RPG’s ?

[limburger 22088xp 0]

So recent XLBS posed the question : would you make your own wargame rules ?

And that got me thinking.

Would I when given the chance ?
Nope, not really.
I might tweak the rules of an existing game and scenario a bit, but fresh rules from scratch ?
I’d rather play a game and not waste my precious hobby time on creating new rules …

There’s plenty of rules out there already. Many covering similar periods.

The only thing you really need is a wargaming mindset equivalent to the one that gave us OSR and Mork Borg for RPG’s.
And that includes letting go of the need for absolute detail and focus on the holy trinity of scenario, theme and narrative.

I used to be infected by the D&D virus and think that I needed rules and systems for every possible action in a rpg.
As a result I collected a ton of equipment and splat books, because they described new mechanics.
Now I only need a single rule that states how to check if an action succeeds at a given difficulty and a way to determine how difficult an action needs to be if it is important enough for the plot to be random as plausible actions always succeed.

tl;dr;
First we need to define the essence of wargaming in the same way we kind of have discovered the essence of roleplaying.
Maybe what we really need is a neutral judge of conflict that can determine the plausibility of any given action on the battlefield ?
We could call hime a referee …

And then the indie of the week got mentioned ( Écorcheurs ) and that kind of ticks several of the boxes mentioned before.
The site says it’s going to be a kickstarter, so unless you happen to see the thing in one of the demo games at conventions you’re going to have to wait for further details (or until OTT does a ‘Let’s play’ 😉 ).

Anyways …

Are there any systems already out there that focus on keeping things simple yet functional and thematic?
Things discovered so far :
– ROGUE WARRIORS: A Modern Warfare Skirmish Game (former Indie of the week or at least mentioned on either Weekender or Discord)
– One hour Skirmish games
– Xenos Rampant / Dragon Rampant / Lion Rampant
– Arguing When ( https://tabletopmatrixwargames689972109.wordpress.com/ )

hmmm .. looks like I got quite a few of them already in my collection that might fit this concept. 😀

But there’s always room for more, right ?
My only complaint so far is that these systems may be a bit too lightweight/abstract to be useful for more than a one shot game, but I could be wrong. Rogue Warriors definitely has supplements for campaigns in various settings.

And yes … there’s One Page Rules as well, but I wonder if that system is getting a bit too bulky as it is starting transform into its own thing and may lose sight of its former flexibility. Or maybe that’s just the community focussing more on using it as a better version of the GW games?

So … anyone got ideas on this subject ?
Most appear to be focussed on skirmishes and not the bigger battles … so there’s that as well.

[briand123 1170xp 0]

The Thud and Blunder and In Her Majesty’s Name may be worth a look. Also check out Fistful of Lead, and the sister rule sets to that.

[blinky465 17178xp 1]

One hour Skirmish games is a great book. A Fistful of Lead reads like a great set of rules (I’ve never played a game using them)
Expanding on that idea, couldn’t you make a card deck (one for each player) usable for just about any decision?

For “opposed” actions (shoot/dodge, hit/parry) you draw cards, your opponent draws cards, highest wins.
For “simple” actions draw a card and compare against an agreed success threshold (based on the difficulty of the task).
Characters with higher skills get to draw more cards (you choose the highest/best for your outcome) and replace the others (either at the bottom of the deck or the top).

Special rules would allow you to peek the first x cards of your deck.
Or shuffle your deck. Or shuffle your opponents deck. Or replace your discarded cards and shuffle (resetting the “memory” of the deck).

Minimalist and thematic? Some kind of card-based mechanic would be ideal for this.
If one doesn’t exist, just “take inspiration from” One Hour Skirmish Games and go from there?

 

[limburger 22088xp 0]

Fistful of lead is another one to look into. They’ve done a few thematic variants IIRC.
With games like this I do wonder if they’re not pushing the system a bit too far at times. Although the same thing happens to D&D clones as they’re used for genres that don’t suit the core mechanics (Call of Chtulluh being the worst example of this).

I do wonder why there isn’t a bigger community advocating a generic lightweight set of rules for wargaming.

Could it be that OSR is effectively classic D&D and that system ‘just works’ whereas wargaming never had an equivalent that got big enough for something similar to happen ?
D&D going ‘open source’ (for a short while) probably helped a lot, because that allowed for variants without fear of copyright issues.

@blinky465 Relic Knights does its entire game with a system like that. That system uses a custom deck, but I see no reason why a standard deck couldn’t be used. One could borrow a few aspects from poker so card-combinations can have extra effects too. There is the risk of it becoming too complex to be useful.

OTOH … it’s only a mechanic and could be done with dice rolling as well.
Rail Raiders used a poker dice variant, but that’s probably the only game that ever tried and it was more like a boardgame.

 

[jeffersonpowers]

For several years I’ve been on the hunt for a good set of “one size fits all” generic skirmish rules, without any setting or genre attached to them, mainly so I won’t have to keep learning (and struggling to remember) new rules sets every time I want to switch to a different genre. It’s been a surprisingly difficult quest.

The closest I’ve found is Crooked Dice’s 7TV, which is a fun rules set that accommodates a wide variety of genres. The only thing I don’t like about it is the lack of codified rules for creating your own character profiles. The game comes with tons of different miniatures-agnostic stat cards, with the idea that you should be able to find one that’s close enough, and you can swap out one or two things to fit, but that’s a little too vague and unconvincing for me. I want to be able to create new, balanced units from scratch, using a list of options like you would when creating a RPG character.

Lately I’m coming around to the idea (posed by Gerry, if I recall correctly) that generic rules are too…generic, and you are better off using a set of rules that have been designed specifically for the genre you want to play. He’s probably right, but that leads us back to the original problem I was trying to solve, that of struggling to learn and remember too may different sets of rules…

• This reply was modified 3 months, 3 weeks ago by jeffersonpowers. Reason: typo

[limburger 22088xp 0]

But why is it that we can sort of do this for RPG’s, but with wargames we struggle so much ?

Are periode/genre specific features so essential to the gameplay?

Or is this because there is no neutral party (aka referee or games master) to keep things containted that makes it more difficult ?

@jeffersonpowers
‘The Walking Dead’ by Mantic does have character creation as an option. Maybe that is a better basis for a game set in ‘modern’ timelines ?
otoh … you won’t find magic or advanced tech or anything that allows for more command&control.

[jeffersonpowers 363xp 0]

I think the presence of a gamemaster in RPGs makes it a lot easier to handle edge cases and ideas that might be outside the rules as written. But I also think an RPG is a very different experience to a heat-to-head or even multiplayer miniatures game. With a head-to-head game, even a “friendly” one, you need most if not all of the rules to be spelled out to a reasonable degree since ostensibly the goal is to win the battle rather than just move the story forward. The rules don’t need to be nearly as granular if you have an impartial referee to parse them and make judgement calls, like you do in an RPG.

Genre-specific rules are sometimes important. Just as an example, one of the settings I’m trying to find a good rules set for is Aliens, specifically the second film. This would need rules for things like autofire and ammo counting, since running out of ammo was one of the points of tension in the film. Also, probably some kind of mechanic for stress as the characters start to lose their cool. And the Aliens would need fairly robust stealth rules (“They’re coming out of the walls!”), but also probably rules for multi-figure units since their main advantage in the film is their numbers.

Another genre I’m looking at is Batman, which wouldn’t require anywhere near the same granularity with regard to firearms, but would need very different movement rules to reflect all the swinging around on grappling hooks and the like, rules that would likely be wildly different in Aliens. Would it be possible to create one system to accommodate both genres? Probably, but the more “generic” you try to be with the rules, the more rules you need to cover all the different possibilities. It seems like it might be better to have a dedicated Aliens game that’s designed for only the things that happen in that genre, a Batman game to handle the uniquely Batman stuff, and so on.

On the other hand, a Batman vs. Aliens game would be cool, and not entirely unprecedented… 😉

[gebaye]

You’ve already put your finger on the idea of ​​a “wargaming OSR,” even if you didn’t call it that at first.
And in reality, many players are tired of the overflowing rules and would be willing to adopt a system that: Focuses on the story, Minimalist but adaptable, Modular for skirmishes or large battles, Possibly refereed to streamline the games.

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• This reply was modified 2 months ago by gebaye.
• This reply was modified 2 months ago by gebaye.

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