Talking about Kings of War 4th Edition

[nightrunner]

Hi everyone,

I received my copy of KOW 4th edition rulebook on the 31st and I have read through all the rules and skimmed through the army lists.  Overall I have mixed feelings – maybe because I loved 3.5 ed so much.  So I decided to write down my initial thoughts as objectively as possible, even though I have not yet played an actually game.

I will start with the stuff I am not convinced yet, then I will talk about the stuff I am convinced of.

Not convinced:

In 3rd ed, the basing system had an established convention, that was taken purposely from the old Warhammer Fantasy system.  In 3rd there was a chart explaining all the bases in one small section of the page.  Now Heavy infantry, Monstrous infantry and Titans are now ‘legacy’ bases and are described on a different page (which doesn’t make sense since they are still being used?).  Personally, I prefer all units to be on the same frontage, it would be easier (like Midgard).  Now it is very ambiguous.  The book says you should use the base the unit comes with – what?!?  Also, can you now put Orcs on 100mm frontages and still call them Heavy Infantry?  In my opinion, they should have kept the same basing convention and kept it in a chart or scrapped it and started over. I understand the simplicity of writing rules for ‘Infantry’, but they should just have said – when we say Infantry we are taking about Infantry and heavy Infantry, and kept everything as it was.

The loss of army selection, in my opinion, has reduced the flavour of the armies.  I play Elves and Ogres at the moment.  Ogres are fine, but now if you have a Sylvan Kin army (as I do), it just feels like playing elves.  I hope things change with the army in the future, but I find that it sucks.  The Sylvan kin have lost several units, but the worst for me is the loss of Kindred warriors. Now all the infantry have to be Tallspears, which is a shame.  Kindred warriors, was just a weapon option, and it was great for gamers like me who has a lot of elves with swords.  Also, Elves are a bit overpowered with the choice of Palace Guard and Critters (excellent chaff units) as Core choices.  I hope this army is reworked in the future.

The loss of the 3rd edn combat system particularly hurts (especially the loss of wav/nev mechanism).  Now armies are stuck until the combat ends.  KOW was always very stylized (more so than other wargames), and that is fine, but now the stylization is even more so.  This is fine for the competitive scene, but for gamers who like a more historical-adjacent game, I prefer 3.5edn where combat is concerned.

The one thing that was great with KOW, was that all the rules and armies were in one book – unlike Warhammer or Oathmark.  Now we have to buy several books to have all the armies in print.  This is mitigated with the army builder – which is a blessing – but I do not like this turn of events.  I hope, when all the army supplements are printed out and Mantic have made their sales and money, then they can issue a 3.5 edn like Red Book with all the rules and army lists in one book.

A small nitpick is the lack of a thorough Index at the back or a more complete Content page at the front.

Convinced:

The first thing I really like about the new edition, is the new army building format.  I have always had a problem with people coming with an Ogre army made up of Shield Breakers (and I play Ogres) or Elohi for Basileans for example.  In fact I only have one regiment of Shield Breakers on purpose.  The new army building rules makes armies look more like armies and reduces the gaminess of the system.

The shooting is better in my opinion as it only causes wavering.

The new book format with basic rules section and Advanced section is just better.

I really like the expanded scenario system.  This is a really great resource for narrative gamers like myself.

Changing the bases for characters and streamlining them was a great change.  It was the first time I actually enjoyed base-changing miniatures.

I never liked the introduction of Legion-sized bases into the game in 3rd ed, so limiting them in the army lists is a pro for me.

Last is the ‘commands’ system.  I think they are a better system than the experimental command dice and add more flavour to the armies as they current are.

Final Thoughts

I think 4th ed KOW is overall an improvement for the game where competitive players are concerned.  The streamlining allows games to be played faster and more smoothly.  Unfortunately, I think the game detracts slightly with the increased stylization for narrative players.

I predict that 75% of my gaming group will simply transition to 4th ed automatically, because they are competitive players and will always play the latest iteration of the rules. I will play 4th edn if I want to play with different people and different armies.

Personally, though, I think I will try to play 3.5 edn where possible – but with the new army construction rules, scenario system and with some small rules changes like for shooting.  This will be with more narrative players in my group.  We are a minority, just 3 of us, but we can still play an interesting campaign with just 3 gamers.

There it is! That is my initial reaction and thoughts.  They my change with time and actually playing the game.  In the meantime, if you are a fan of Kings of War, I’d love to hear what you think.

Regards,

NR

• This topic was modified 1 month ago by nightrunner.
• This topic was modified 1 month ago by nightrunner.
• This topic was modified 1 month ago by nightrunner.
• This topic was modified 1 month ago by nightrunner.
• This topic was modified 1 month ago by nightrunner.

[radegast6 5761xp 1]

thx for sharing. i was concerned about same stuff

[nightrunner]

After My First Three Games

Yesterday, on Sunday we played our first games of KOW 4th edition.  I played in two games with my proxy Ogres and Not Sylvan Kin (or simply Elves).  There was also Undead, Orcs, Dwarves and Northern Alliance (I was disappointment to see that Tribesmen are still DE 5+). The Northern Alliance army was originally a Varangur army, but in 4th Varangur (like the Sylvan Kin) were drained of all their flavour and are now just garbage.

I can safely say the game is still – definitely – Kings of War. It feels like KOW and plays like KOW.  That much is certain.  Everything seems to run smoother.  I really like the new shooting changes, that indirectly place the emphasis on combat.  Shooting is still important, but as a tool of hindrance rather than one of death dealing.

I still have mixed feeling about combat. There are new rules that make combat deadlier or quicker.  One rule, that is very controversial for me, is the wrap-around rule.  This allows a unit that is in combat – say to the front with an enemy unit – to move to the flank with a Reform order, opening up space for another unit to engage or charge into combat.  That is actually great, and allows for more tactical depth.  My problem with it is that if you move to the flank or rear you can attack with double or treble the attacks – I find this stupid.  I disagree because it is not an impact attack like a charge, but troops moving with the swirl of combat. It makes combat very deadly, but removes from the skill of maneuvering…and as I said is just stupid.  You should not get the bonus attacks in this case.  The maneuver is the advantage. Doubling and trebling attacks should only occur with a charge.

I will definitely be house-ruling this and I will not play with my competitive friends if they insist using the rule as is.  They can practice their game with someone else. You might think I am an asshole for saying this, but I simply do not enjoy the game with this mechanic in play.  It really bothers me.

The new Withdraw order I also find cool as a concept, but I did not find it very useful, unless you use it early in the combat.  This is because if you fail the Nerve Test you rout…and that simply means the unit is removed from play. I would have preferred something different, like the withdrawing unit (if you fail the Nerve Test) still withdraws, but is devastated until the unit’s next turn.  I understand the reasoning behind the choice of the rule, but because I like ‘pushback’ in historical games – I am not a big fan of Withdraw as it is currently. It does have a place in the game though.

I like the commands, but we found some to be very useful and others not so much.  I am a bit worried about power creep, as the new books come out – unless they are well play-tested.

Other than that, all I have mentioned in my first post still stands for me.  Mantic, if you read this, bring back Kindred Warriors for the Elves and Sylvan Kin!, and make the Varangur great again.  I think, Mantic really need to get their armies back up to form.  I think they jumped the shark were the armies are involved, and they should have prepared better for 4th.  With the campaign books coming out twice a year, some armies are going to take a few years to get better and more balanced.  Competitive players are going to have a field day breaking stuff and Mantic have their work cut out for them!

Regards,

NR

• This reply was modified 1 month ago by nightrunner.

[nightrunner]

For anyone interested in Kings of War 4th edition, Mantic will be holding a ‘question and answer session’ on Youtube HERE.

.  You can enter your questions and hopeful Alessio and crew might answer them (if the question is common or pertinent enough).

• This reply was modified 2 weeks, 6 days ago by nightrunner.

[nightrunner]

Hi everyone,

Last night the Mantic team had a roughly one hour stream addressing some of the community’s questions.  I came out of it with mixed feelings, but with some hope.

First of all, I was not surprised to see that Mantic owned their misuse of the basing convention confusion, with words like ‘legacy and obsolete’ basing and they reassured us that the basing convention is the same and they will also publish the base chart/matrix they had in 3rd edition.  Good for them. They also agreed with me in the first post, that they should have just said from now on when we say infantry we mean infantry and heavy infantry.  Problem solved.

The stream also confirmed that the Varangur is going to be fleshed out in the future, as well as the return of Vanguard (which we already knew) which is great news.

The new ranges of plastic elves and dwarves were also confirmed – about time!  Ronnie also gave a passing mention of new Elohi and Abyssal Immortal Dwarves.  He also said that metal miniatures would no longer be produced and the future is plastics and 3D printing.

Ronnie confirmed that Mantic want to move to more  propriety ranges like the Twilight Kin which were originally Dark Elves.  Moving forward, all refreshes will be in this vein, that is making something new and original.  So Kingdoms of Men, when they come out will not be like Medieval French or the Normans.  This is a stark step away from the original intent of the army lists, which were done in 1st to 3rd to accommodate armies from other systems when their worlds blew up.

I think Ronnie wants KOW to be like Conquest from Para Bellum Games with its strange and original armies.  You can’t really use traditional armies in Conquest with good effect, and Mantic want to have a foot in that door.  I don’t blame them really, because this move will allow them to sell more of their product, instead of gamers playing their games with models from other ranges.

He also recommended everyone to not build any armies for KOW if the plastic kits do not exist.  So do not build any Kingdoms of Men armies because when Mantic do them, they might change everything about them.  Same thing goes for the Varangur, Silvan Kin, Forces of Nature and so on.  The Varangur, for example, will not be a list to accommodate Chaos Warriors and  Marauders from the GW range – they will be something else or new.

Also, the development of armies now will be intimately tied to the narrative.  So armies like the Brotherhood, and the Order of the Green Lady are no longer  part of the current narrative, so will not be supported.  All armies will now take shape around the lore – period.

Several rules issues were discussed like yielding and yielding characters. Also some spells, but nothing about the combat system was discussed.  Part of the reason was that Ronnie would go on long rants and took up a lot of the time that could have been used to answer more questions.

In the end, after listening to the stream I have come to some conclusions for the future. I will continue to play KOW because it is a fun (even though it is not the best) wargame.  I have a proxy army for Ogres which has not been made redundant – so I will continue to play them for KOW. I also have an 80% non-Mantic Undead army which I will also will build up and use for KOW, but I will build, base and use my Wood Elves for a different system.

I am not happy at all with the move to the app subscription, and I prefer an updated free pdf of the rules.  I bought a 50 euro rulebook from Mantic.  I think they should at least give you the pdf for free.  They will be publish an errata and FAQ at least.

I will not be building any new Mantic armies for KOW until most of the campaign books come out and the armies are finalized with regards to what will be produced in the future.  That is it.  I will not be posting anything else for now, and will concentrate on playing, learning and enjoying the game  and the rules for my proxy Ogre army.

I hope this write up was useful and until I post again stay safe and have fun.

NR

• This reply was modified 2 weeks, 6 days ago by nightrunner.

[athelstane 708xp 2]

Thanks,

I’ve enjoyed KoW for a while but baled out with ver3.5.   The lore in the earlier versions didn’t do much for me, but as it was quite thin and you could flesh it out with your own ‘proper fantasy’ TM – the stuff that Howard/Tolkien/Leiber might write – that was not a huge deal.  But I noticed with Marauder and from your comments that KoW ver4 is even more about their lore.     I won’t go on about modern fantasy as it will derail your thread.  But, I for one, will not be bothering anymore with KoW and Pannithor!!!

[nightrunner 11703xp 0]

Thanks for the reply @athelstane Building armies around the lore is fact, there is no getting around that, but just to drop a caveat – you don’t have to follow or play in their world.  You can always choose an army, proxy it and use the rules to play with the armies of your choosing.  You don’t have to throw out the baby with the bath water is what I am trying to say!  If you don’t like the system, then that is a totally different can of worms. And I agree, the worlds of Howard and Tolkien are the best hands down.

[limburger 22387xp 2]

Getting a good balance between lore and rules is tricky.
Early versions of KoW were a bit too light on lore for my liking.

I’d suspect that with the release of KoW Champions they got a bit more reason to expand upon their own background, which isn’t a bad thing either.

I’m pretty sure there’s still plenty of space to build your own army. It might not be as freeform as Oathmark, but I also doubt they’re going to remove all the joy from experimenting with multi-basing either.

btw:

Have the changes to the basing had any effect on either your existing armies or ideas for creating new ones ?

[nightrunner 11703xp 0]

Hey @limburger, I agree expanding their lore is OK.  Mantic are even going to do a RPG set in Panithor, so yeah their lore is in…everything.  Personally, I am not interested in their lore at all, but I do love their games.

As for the bases, there are no changes in size, except that Mantic wont always be putting 20 men on a regiment for example.  So, if for some reason the men are twice the size due to Hafling fast-food, the box they are sold in will come with only 15 men.

[radegast6 5761xp 1]

thx for sharing

[limburger 22387xp 1]

@nightrunner does that mean they have changed the minimum amount of figures per base in this edition ?

Shouldn’t we be raging at Mantic for daring to sell us fewer figures per unit box ? 😀

I suspect it all works out in the end and makes for better looking units if the restrictions for basing have been loosened a bit.

(soo tempted to buy the new starter set because the humanoid dogs look soo cool. )

 

[nightrunner 11703xp 0]

@limburger sorry for the late reply but I was out for a day and I didn’t want to log into the interwebs.  Quality time with my feet touching grass….etc.

To answer your question – on occasion and it depends.  Look at the new Xirkali.  The humans are still 20 men on a standard 100x80mm base.  The xirkali dogs are 8 on a 120x80mm large infantry base. Normally on large infantry bases you put on 6 figures not 8.  So it depends on the miniatures and aesthetics I suppose.

In either case Mantic never enforced a strict rule of how many figures you were to stick on a base.  They just said, to respect your opponent, make sure a regiment looks like one.  I normally put 75% of the required amount and it looks like rank and file.

[limburger 22387xp 0]

No worries. It’s a forum.
I never expect instant replies.

Sounds like the change was to make things easier and better, which makes sense as that’s been Mantic’s MO every time.

I did notice Mantic base adapters for some of the figures.
Is that something that didn’t apply to your armies ?

[nightrunner 11703xp 0]

@limburger yeah, so now characters are standardized with respect to basing.  All infantry are on 40x40mm bases, all cavalry are on 50x50mm and all other characters that are chariots, monsters and titans remain on their normal base.  Much better.  So the base adapters are for the infantry and cavalry characters.

[avernos 35133xp 0]

Xirkaali aren’t large infantry; they’re heavy, so actually it’s four dogs instead of ten, likewise the placoderms for the TRoN are eight strong instead of ten. No longer having to match up a figure count for individual miniatures means they can chose new sizes for miniatures without having to worry about the room they’ll take up on the base. No longer will thirteen clansmen swamp a base made for twenty.

Also if you haven’t spotted it yet Critters (TM) are aux so they don’t count towards your core troops for unlocks

[Author]

Posts