Tis a Sad Day as MiniWarGaming Are Closing Their Store
March 22, 2013 by dracs
Well my friends it seems that we are reaching the end of an era as MiniWarGaming have announced that they will be closing down their store.
MiniWarGaming have put out a video announcing the sad news. According to the vid, there are many reasons behind the decision to close the store, with the new changes in Games Workshop policy towards online retailers being a major contributing factor in this as they have seriously restricted the products they can stock.
Now I hasten to add that MiniWarGaming will still be publishing their great hobby videos and will still be selling their Dark Potential products. It is just their store which is coming to a close.
It is really sad to see the combination of economic conditions and the changing attitudes and approaches of companies towards online retailers bring things to a stage when the there is little choice left but to close the store.
We at Beasts of War will definitely be keeping an eye out for any further announcements from MiniWarGaming and wish them luck with continuing to produce their videos and the sci-fi game Dark Potential.
Supported by (Turn Off)
Supported by (Turn Off)
Supported by (Turn Off)
Maybe once and for all GW needs to feel for real that you guys don’t want them anymore. Personaly i only buy once half of a starter box from a friend and sell it in order to pay dreadball. Seriously, there are many other amazing games right now that have huge audience and even way better quality than gw minis ( no moldlines, bubbles and all that … )
They don’t deserve your money…
I feel your pain. I started playing tabletop war game in 1985, started with 40K and Fant. Loved them then and still have high respect for them now. But due to their constant price hikes and business practices I quit GW 6 years ago. Now don’t get me wrong, I loved the games and ALL the books, but Bill Gates is not my father and i’m rather poor. But thanks to quiting GW I found Mantic, Spatan, MERC’s and a ton of other GREAT games. And thank God I found BoW. (my brother’s from another mother). I am so sorry Mini War Gaming, I hate to see anyone lose their business, thats why even here in Charlotte NC, US. I am on a one man crusade to show others that there is a whole wide world out there with OTHER games from other company’s. (Never put all your eggs in one basket) Again, I am truly sorry to hear your leaving but I hope others will learn from this and push other manufacture systems. Gaming here in the US isn’t as big as it is in Europe, that’s why I would love to start a “Kick Starter” to raise money to move me to England and set me up at BoW as the host from the states. I could co-host with Warren, do unboxings with Andy and just help everyone beat the crap out of Ming. Stay strong MWG!!!!!!
If GW continues this trend of price hikes and shutting down all possible competition, I foresee them being in a serious financial crisis by the end of the decade. I mean the Space Marine Battleforce went from £52 to £80 in the space of two years, and it’s even worse for anyone outside of England or Europe. People just won’t be able to afford it anymore.
I’m one of those but also there is no local store here and even before they didn’t allow online retailers to sell us ( except for GW website of course ). I’m really happy that i never painted a gw mini so far because i won’t miss them.
I’m putting all my money on Mantic ( Dreadball, Kings of War and waiting for the Warpath kickstarter ). Also I have my Cryx army and i’m waiting for the big juice Kingdom Death:Monster and Relic Knights ( yeah i have more than enough 😛 ).
GW ffs …
I’m sorry to hear that you guys are trowing the towel because of the 1000 pds Gorilla that is GW.
Yes I’m very disappointed of GW with this low blow that instilled on all retailers around the world. I guess they forgot about the little stores that help GW be what it is now.
I’m afraid of saying what I’m gonna do because I really love 40K and have spent over half my life playing the game. Yes since Rogue Trader….plus the investment I have applied to them!!!! we are talking about thousands and thousands of dollars not counting time spent hobbying (assembling and painting)
What I despise of this situation is what’s happening to you guys, being put in this dilemma of having to close store.
Hopefully I get to see you guys in some vids.
Don’t quit, I appreciate all you do.
Good Riddance
Brother G
as a previous customer of miniwarming on multiple occasions, and a big fan of their videos (as well as the ones by beasts of war) I am very sad to see them go, even more so now with the immanent release of the new tau codex and models. I love my friendly local gaming store, but they could never compete with online sales for price. it is a sad day indeed when the gw bullies say competition is bad for their business, lets take them out. its kinda like playing a win at all costs player, it really takes the fun out of this game.
“They don’t deserve your money…”
Totally agree. Until there is a complete overhaul of the way they run the company they won’t get my cash, and even then they have already priced themselves out of my pocket. GW have no respect for their customers who are treated as cash cows. They have less regard for people like Matt above who promote and sell GW products. It is impossible to respect the board of managers who have ruined the company imho.
I don’t care if they still make a profit, the company has sold its soul, so sod ’em.
As you say @vondrasky, there are just too many other better models and excellent game systems available clamouring for attention ever to need to go back. Sad, but c’est la vie.
Is not sad really, we have a lot other things to choose and if GW goes bankrupt the better, they will sell the rights to the highest bidder and there many miniatures companies can get there to make each one a codex 😀 ( yeah crazy but please i want Kingdom Death’s Chaos Daemons and Marines; Eldar and Tau from SodaPop; DreamForge ImperialGuard and Spacemarines! And i’m sure you could think of many others! ). This will open companies to do something that we had already see in kickstarter with collaborations between KD , SodaPop and Studio Macvey. I know my idea is crazy but sometimes crazy is the best way to go.
This is sad day indeed. There is another thing that GW dosen’t seem to realise and thats fact that not only there is lot of competition for them these days but also internet provides both way to people learn about those other games and buy them online when ever they local store dosen’t have those. With so much to choose from these days there is no reason to be stuck with GW even if they games were first introduction to this hobby. Then again some people are too deep in this to quit.
I’ve just signed up to their vault thingy to support them a bit, as with the BoW backstage, I think its important for the hobby (thats the wider hobby not the ‘GW Hobby’) that sites like this stay around , indeed, I’d point something out about the ‘leeches’ of the internet as GW seem to view them.
There is more content on BoW and on miniwargamings youtube channel about starting out in 40k than there is on GWs own website.
Its a family friendly site, so I wont say precisely what I think of Tom Kirby and his mates. But Tom, I hope you get piles. Painful, juicy low hanging grapes.
That sucks for MWG, it makes you think of all the other stores who don’t have such a great online presence and how they will be affected – but evidently GW doesn’t care for the kind of stores that helped to make it the success it is. GW knows it still has a relative monopoly on the industry, as most who get into fantasy/sci-fi wargaming do so through GW, either though a friend or they get interested through the games or BL books.
How does GW expect to maintain the growth of its games when they are closing bigger stores in favour of small ‘one man’ stores with no tables to play games on? Their games may be fun, but they are also old and are simply not as good as some other rule systems out there. It’s going to get to a point where you can only have so many 28-30mm minis on a table in order to actually move anything with any degree of tactical nouse. I can see points costs dropping and prices going up more in the future. I’m still waiting for that £35 Tactical Squad box to be released either this year or next…
I’ve got a lot of nostalgia and genuine love for some GW games. I’ll still buy the occassional mini to paint, but I’ll very rarely buy direct from them (I can’t say I won’t as I have some projects to finish that require me to do so and £20-25 for a Mordheim or Necromunda gang still isn’t that bad value tbh) but I have no reason to go to one of their stores. There’s more diverse and frankly better (aesthetically anyway) product for me to buy and invest in.
I’m already in the process of selling my entire GW collection to raise money for Salute – I’ve done about 40-50 auctions so far and I have a ton left. Usually I won’t support or have respect for a major corporation based on its ethics (like most oil companies or most well known brands who sell for top dollar while using child labour or having poor factory conditions etc). So it’s both strange and sad that I am feeling something similar for a company that sells toys. GW is so out of touch, stupid and inept that they never cease to amaze with their bad business decisions and general PR idiocy.
We all know that GW and all other businesses need to make money – I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is being taken for an idiot by those who can’t know I’m an idiot 😉
It’s just another sad case of a corporate entity being without any empathy or understanding with or for its “customers” – as in fellow human beings who, in this case, hobby and game to, in part, escape such lame-ass douchery they have to deal with time and again, whether it be from phone companies, utility companies or even governments (which are like the plc corporations of nations). To have the company of a hobby you may have invested so much time and money into to continue to act this way is frustrating, if not insulting. At the very least it’s just plain bad manners on GW’s part.
It’s getting to the stage where they are no longer supporting their own business through these kinds of decisions – or is that just me?
Now to await the yearly price increase and all the joyful repsonses it will bring 🙂
At this stage even God may be facepalming at GW’s stupidity.
It doesnt just effect GW though. If they can put online retailers out of buisiness then it hits other games companies that rely on these retailers too. Crafty way of nobbling the competition.
but then GW probably arn’t as devious as i am….
Once again, I am still wondering why no other gaming company is so hostile to stores selling their goodies on line at a discount. Never hear of Corvus or PP being apoplectic about Wayland or others.
Oh yeah, they are living on the same plane as their customers.
This is yet another indication of GW’s insularity and lack of understanding and/or caring about anything beyond the walls of the mighty Citadel.
ps What @warspawned sed.
GW’s plan is a relatively simple one, kill all competition, drive the customers to their shops and their online shop, cut the retailer get 100% profit as the manufacturer.
They do not care if the local shops will survive or if they will kill countries were they have no presence there, if they deemed the local population profitable they would have shops and if the local population wants to continue gaming, there is their online shop.
Personally I am done with GW as a customer a few years now, but their actions affect the local game stores who are reluctant to diversify, I would not say unreasonably, the economic crisis and the Rackham fiasco had a huge impact, the more restrictions and more they struggle to survive, the more new items going to direct only, the less income they get, sure I do not interact with GW, but they can potentially (or slowly) kill the local wargaming scene, something that affects me as a wargamer.
I am quite disappointed that peoples reluctance in trying new games has positioned GW in the position to enforce such policies.
If that is the plan they cannot kill off the competition. It is to well set now.
Apart from which the competition is NOT mutually exclusive to GW.
Most systems are skirmish level.
I really enjoyed this from Adam. This will probably appear in the BoW listings but oh well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9rH2UAo8o4&feature=em-uploademail
That’s a reasonable stance, but holds in countries were the wargaming scene is diversified and there are plethora of wargame stores.
I can see this happening in america and some European countries, but in other countries were wargaming is not widely established and stores are really few, these policies can be quite severe, I was reading on TGN painting frogs stance on the subject and it seems Brasil faces the same problems my country faces.
Get in an environment were after Rackhams fiasco severely affecting them all LGS stocked GW (in effect everything non GW has to be ordered online), the wargame scene is underdeveloped and put these policies in effect, local stores struggle, GW forces players to order from them directly for the most wanted parts (cutting the online distribution), can the local stores now expand to new ranges?
I really hope local stores in my country can diversify and expand and not get killed by GW’s decisions.
“I really hope local stores in my country can diversify and expand and not get killed by GW’s decisions.”
I hope so too. It is tantamount to unfair trading practice imho to be doing what GW have done. Seriously denying the USA stores not to sell on-line? I cannot believe, as Adam said, that the nation that is supposedly so big on free trade allows this to happen.
To choke stores in countries where the hobby is trying to get established is totally unforgivable. There are no excuses. I am sure that PP aspire to grow and make profits. Ditto Mantic and everyone else. But afaik, none of them do so by trying to strangle hobby stores. It is totally unreasonable behaviour.
In the US you’re free to sign just about any contract, even if it’s a stupid one. I’d like to point out that this agreement applies only to those retailers who get their product direct from GW. Thanks to a recent landmark supreme court decision upholding the right to first sale (in a copyright case completely unrelated to any of this), there is no way GW can stop someone from buying a ton of product from a US distributor and reselling it to Brazilians. The cost of such an operation is a lot higher now than it was before GW’s new terms, but it’s still probably cheap enough to beat GW’s prices in Brazil.
Either way, in the end it really hurts GW the most. Their product just became a lot less competitive in a lot of different places. PP and Battlefront are probably the companies best positioned to move into those markets, one by one, and start taking market share from GW. Maybe FFG if they can get their production scheduling issues sorted out. This is a stupid policy GW just made and one that will hurt them in the long term much more than it will help them.
As far as voting with my wallet is concerned: I haven’t bought a GW product in years. But GW doesn’t care about us, remember? They want 12-year-olds. They want a constant churn of new customers. They don’t care about our opinion because we are not their target demographic. Their long-time veteran players are not their target demographic. If Darrel quit 40k, GW wouldn’t miss him. They literally don’t respect him, and they literally don’t care about his business. He’s not a 12-year-old building a brand new army from scratch. He’s nothing to them.
And that’s not new.
GW have every damn right to say “you can’t sell our product”. They make it. The package it. It’s theres. I mean Tescos homebrand can’t be sold in Asda. Free Trade is OWNING YOUR PROPERTY. And GW products are GW’s products, not anyone elses (until they are sold). They have every moral, and should have every legal right to do whatever they want to do when it comes to who and how their own property can be sold.
It is no doubt the case that stopping third party online sellers can only damage GW’s profits in the long term, but that’s their stupid mistake to make. It does seem to be a mistake that every other company can see a mile off though. Imagine if Playstation said “we’re only selling Playstations in Sony stores” etc. Insane.
Now if GW allowed someone to sell their products and then out of the blue pulled the plug causing perhaps bankruptcy, well, that’s a different issue. And indeed maybe that’s what GW has done here, I have no idea.
If GW are making it impossible to buy their products for some countries, at reasonable prices, then capitalism will sooner or later deal with them: someone will step in and offer a viable alternative. It may take time but it always, always happens.
Owning property is nothing to do with free trade.
Sure GW can do want they want with their products.
(Still doesn’t give them the right to behave like jerks.)
Your analogy doesn’t hold up Poosh.
Tesco don’t manufacture their brand goods. they also stock other brands of horse meat, and they don’t supply corner shops afaik, certainly not with Tesco brands.
Trying to behave as a monopoly is not trading freely.
Putting restrictions on the ability to order and sell goods is not trading freely.
Any which way I look at it GW are trying to exert pressure on people not to sell their goods. If they are not in breach of trading regulations I would guess that they are sailing pretty close to the wind.
I’m not sure how to characterize the wargaming scene in the US, but I don’t think I would call it widely established. The numbers tend to throw things off because the nation is so large. Yes, the gaming market is huge here in terms of raw numbers, but it’s still a very tiny proportion of the overall population, and there are large (very large, like hundreds of thousands of square miles) parts of the country where there are no gaming stores at all. I really can’t explain why GW isn’t the same behemoth here as they are in other places. They’re certainly popular, and probably still the most popular wargames company, in terms of sales. But they’re nowhere near the same level of dominance here that they are in Europe.
It could be because we have some behemoth competitors of our own. Wizards of the Coast is the 800lb gorilla here. I know, that’s not wargames, but that’s kind of irrelevant as most gamers here characterize themselves as “gamers” and not “wargamers” or “RPGers”. In the US, if you call yourself a wargamer most people assume you mean historics. Most of the new wargamers I’ve met in the last couple of years started playing because they saw somebody playing Warmachine or Malifaux at the shop where they buy their Magic cards. I’ve seen very little evidence that GW does much at all for recruitment out here (especially after they closed a bunch of their US retail stores a few years back).
This is all relatively new though. We used to have two big stores that both sold and promoted GW product as their primary revenue stream. Both of those stores went out of business, and a lot of new stores popped up to replace them. None of those new stores promote GW much at all. I don’t think that’s a coincidence. GW’s minimum stock requirements are pretty predatory really. Their requirements are much more restrictive and expensive than most other minis companies’. They make it hard for retailers to remain profitable when they have to keep a certain amount of known-to-be-unprofitable product on their shelves just to keep GW happy. It’s a form of debt really. The cost of that shelf space and the product on it that doesn’t ever sell is like taking out a loan from GW in the hopes that the rest will pay off. With the margins on these products and the online competition (including from GW) it’s become a lot more appealing for local retailers to promote non-GW product to keep their businesses open. There’s at least one store out here that doesn’t even carry GW because they decided the cost of doing business with GW wasn’t worth it. They’re doing pretty well with WotC, PP, Wyrd and FFG product.
I think any store that hitches their wagon to any single vendor’s star is setting themselves up for failure. I don’t know why so many stores did just that for so many years. They had the ability to promote other products, to evangelize to their customers from a trusted position. They didn’t. It’s a shame really, because most of those stores are going under now (out here at least. There’s only one store out here that still really pushes GW product, but they also really sell through a lot of Flames of War). But the new stores popping up in their wake are taking a different approach. I hope it works out for them.
Miniwargaming “evangelized” PP products very heavily. In fact they actually bothered to do a nice “how to play” series of videos.
MWG also started their own game, which is where most of their business effort is going these days. He even said in the video, that GW’s decision was just the last straw for an already low-margin business that was on the edge (their margins are lower than retailers who sell at full MSRP). MWG diversified their interests just in time. I hope their game does well for them.
Free Trade is having the right to trade your product as you see fit. It would be a f*cked up world if people came along and told you what you can and can’t do with your own product. Owning property – property rights – is absolutely the foundation of free trade. Free Trade is NOT me coming into your home with a gun (the law) and telling you what to do with your own property – products. Actual free trade, not stealing from someone or demanding someone do what you want them to do with the product of their own labour (and those plastic space marines are the product of GW’s labour – not yours and not Mini War Gaming) is freedom to trade as you see fit. Should GW come along and tell MiniWarGaming that actually they are going to stock Dark Potential, and MiniWarGaming have no say in it? Should youtube come along to BoW and say “FU BoW, all your backstage vids are belong to us and going up on Youtube, you got no say, bro!”
Tesocs make their own products. They don’t let Asda carry them because that’s their right. If they did allow Asda to stock their products, they have every right to withdraw. That is all my analogy implies – I know you’re not dumb enough to think because manufacturing is outsourced that somehow means they didn’t make the item.
I don’t know if GW are trying to be a monopoly or not – i.e trying to close down third party stores with the purpose of stopping gamers from coming into contact with non GW products – another relevant discussion.
That GW think not allowing their product to be stocked by third party online sellers, and other restrictions, will somehow serve their purposes (it won’t) is still their prerogative. If they want to remove £1,000s worth of free advertising for GW then that’s up to them. Telling people you HAVE to trade your product at X and Y is far worse than anything GW could do in 40,000 years.
You have no right to GW products. You have no right to dictate to GW how they trade their own products, You have no right to force them to stock third parties, just as you can’t walk into Tescos and demand they stock Asda with Tescos Homebrand. They have every right to shoot themselves in the foot and destroy themselves: it’s just a damn shame.
I’ll bracket out behaviour which knowingly destroys businesses etc, but that just means, to me, GW should give a reasonable period of warning before cancelling their stock with a third party. I think that’s another relevant discussion.
I am not defending GW, I am defending their rights which are also my own rights. I’m defending GW’s rights to freely destroy themselves.
I’ll repeat this again because it’s important: third parties get their GW stock, in bulk at a large discount. They then sell it on at 2/3 times the price GW sold it to them for. There are good reasons all companies in the world ever do this: product saturation etc.
The problem is GW still think their little plastic models are premium products in a world of £10,000 Alienware PCs.
“Term free trade Definition: The absence of trade barriers, or restrictions on foreign trade. Based on the notion of comparative advantage, unrestricted trade is generally beneficial to a trading country. However, while consumers benefit through a greater selection of products and lower prices, producers in a country are on the receiving end of lower prices and stiffer competition. In that producers tend to have more political clout than consumers, completely, unhindered free trade is seldom seen in the real world. Numerous trade restrictions such as tariffs, non tariff barriers, and quotas are usually the rule of the day (also the rule of the week, year, decade and century).”
I should have also said that the other option is for GW to just not allow anyone else to sell their products at all.
Yes those restrictions listed, chibi, are GOVERNMENT / STATE restrictions – not the producer. Producers are free to impose their own restrictions as they see fit: even to their own detriment.
“I should have also said that the other option is for GW to just not allow anyone else to sell their products at all.”
That has been their agenda for a long time.
And it’s akin to shooting themselves in the head. Their mistake to make.
Very good point. I’m just getting back into the hobby. Use to play warhammer 40k. So what have I’ve been playing this time around…..Dust Tactics, X-Wing and Mercs.
Looks like I have one of my main topics for the weekender…
Indeed you have, will be quite interesting to hear about it.
Also may be worth pointing out they tested the restriction of tables in america mere months before implementing it in the UK… makes me worry
Technically, I think GW has already restricted sales for online retailers within Europe, as if you look at Wayland games, it very specifically states that they cannot send GW products to countries outside of Europe, so we might be safe, thanks to EU regulations.
that would be nice and i know we have an anti monopolies commision and such… (extreme example time) thatcher still ignored most those laws and got round them…somehow
Now I am going to say something that may not be very popular even for people that are now refusing (yet again) to purchase GW products. Please see it as a positive political message to sort themselves out, rarther than a hate campaign.
Beasts of War, please stop all reviews, whats in the box, painting tutorials, tactical advice on games associated to ANY GW product until this mess is sorted out. It is my belief that you are just stregnthening their position in the market which will result in more flexing of the GW muscle and may result in more hobby related stores in the future being manipulated, which may include Wayland if pressure is not being applied already.
You do a sterling job in the promotion of a lot of other games, so lets drive this message home once and for all and support our fellow gamers and stores across the world.
In doing this, I believe a clear message will be driven home that enough is enough and you have the support of the gaming community to do so.
What we can do as gamers is cease to comment on any such articles that slip through the net.
I am not trying to suggest a boycot of Beasts of War, I am trying to say we want to support your community long into the future. Sadly, a lone customer can not really take a stance. But a representative of the community can start to lead the way and hopefully other will follow.
I don’t want a HATE campaign, I want a restructuring campaign that states quite clearly that enough is enough.
I am not sure what more to say without rambling on further, so I will just end by putting the idea out there. I am sorry if this causes offence to the GW gaming community, it is not intended to do so.
Thanks for reading.
Broadside
I certainly hope that if one group decides that, as you said, ‘enough is enough’ and takes a stance, especially one with as many contacts and as big as audience as BOW seems to have, we might finally be able to make GW listen and change, rather than just holding their fingers in their ears and going ‘la la la’, like they did by shutting their Facebook page down.
And I suppose I’d best change my avatar if that is the case =P
tut tut /waggles finger. 😛 hehe
This is just my personal answer, and in no way does it reflect any sort of opinion Beasts of War may express (as if there was any “official stance” in these matters…lol)…
I’ve said it before, oh, about a hundred gazillion times :
People, vote with your wallets !
Romain is right, the only language they understand is the bottom line.
I happen to think the releases from Chaos Space Marines onwards for both fantasy and 40K have made it very easy to look at other miniatures. The general stylistic direction has really been , to my eyes, very poor recently. In fact, the dark angels deathwing knights box is perhaps the only release in the last 4 or 5 months I have thought was worth any money at all, and that wasnt worth the money they were asking for it as it turned out.
And its not just of pure money either, I’m happy to buy single minis at £7 or £8 for infinity, because they are glorious models , unique, full of detail and very well cast , I get value from them that I just dont see in GW product, even acheaper GW product.
The answer isnt to stop talking about GW, its to stop buying it, and the sheer number of great games out there now makes that very easy to do .
I couldn’t agree more. The people on BoW are intelligent, articulate people who are more than capable of making their own minds whether or not to denounce a product or company; I believe one of the strengths of BoW is their impartiality and to carry out a GW boycott would harm both; something that needs to be avoided.
On another note, I must say I was impressed with Matthews comments; he was well composed and gave a great breakdown to the whole issue. If GW was smart, They would get him on board and discuss the issues!! (Ain’t going to happen)
Hear that guys, we’re articumalate!
GW what? I seem to have forgotten that name 😉
And start with something simple. Say a Month Without GW. Don’t even call it that, it’s negativistic. Call it “A Month of Alternatives”. Do a month of capsule reviews of lesser known systems in a digest format, with basic info like start-up cost, representative size of armies, links to previous mentions on BoW. Let people vote on the most interesting systems and then do Live Rounds/Battle Report /Painting Tutorial features for them. It may even let you guys (BoW) try out stuff you have not before.
Would love to have a week of hell dorado. Seems a big system that never gets much love. 🙁 The Carnevale week was awesome and got me very interest in that. In fact every week review always gets the juices flowing (except MERCS is still ruined with the OCD card useage, hehe).
I would suggest that instead of new GW products, just feature the old products, like looking a rogue trader and supplements, old OOP miniatures. This would still provide coverage of GW but give them NO new sales, and not promote the current range. I think this would really irritate them. It would be a nice Journey through the history of the Hobby too, like the old article from White Dwarf putting Space Orcs in a Paranoia scenario, or the old Road Wars game, etc… etc… A good way to encourage “playing in the gaps”
Even though he keeps his cool notice what may be a little slip of Matt’s when he admits GW are basically trying to take him out.
All that free advertising Mini Wargaming gave GW.
In fairness to GW, third party sellers, online, get their GW stock for, well, not peanuts but pretty damn little. The third party then resells often with a discount (the logic being buy from US not the original retailer, GW directly). That’s the piggy-backing. Miniwargaming’s 10% discount means they are taking a bigger cut then, say, Wayland Games in the UK who do a 20% discount I believe.
GW should, quite rightly, only allow third parties to sell their products if it makes GW profit. No profit NO miniatures, no outside investment. I would wager, that some in GW have been arguing that without the third party discount stores older gamers will simply bug out and jump ship – this is causing conflict with those who think they should just sell to children and fanboys and use them as cash cows. That’s my theory anyway. IMO piggy-backing, or whatever it might be called, only occurs when people are especially aware they’re not getting value for money at the retail price.
There’s a lot of people saying there are alternatives to GW. Semantics here, but no, there isn’t. Not for people wanting to play MASSED sci-fi / fantasy games. Mantic don’t cut it yet (and seem to taken a massive holiday for some reason…) so who is there? What other company sells a massive LINE of sci fi and fantasy miniatures for MASSED war-gaming?
So when people say “there is plenty of competition and alternatives” – that’s only true from a certain point of view, as Obi Wan would say. It’s also false. From a certain point of view.
The only real alternatives are in their infancy. Mantic haven’t released anything NEW for ages for Warpath or Kings. Other than Mantic, it’s sitting down and helping out Dystopian Legions and hoping Warzone gets back into gear and becomes GW’s sci-fi competitor again (support their kick starter).
This behaviour though, along with some of their other efforts, has raised the question of “is it moral to buy from GW now?” When they’re destroying actual businesses ..and ironically themselves.
GW could easily solve the problem s I said elsewhere. Not that it will happen but, if they just stick to manufacturing, sell to stores without stupid rules and let the stores do the selling.
They get their knickers in a twist by selling to companies that then become GW’s retailing competitors.
As we know, GW don’t like competition. I guess the other approach is to just say we will have exclusive rights to selling our goods. Saves messing about the traders and alienating people.
Oh how i wish Forge World had no affiliation to GW, so that i could avoid all temptation to buy off such a horrible company.
As for miniwargaming, will the videos they are giving away with the free membership be available to members if i joined at a later date, dont start my new job til june, and would rather wait til then see
find it mildly amusing all the products in the background of this video are warmahordes stuff 😉
If anything, this new policy change has given me the gumption to start up a BattleTech league and invite the 40k players. Everyone loves BattleTech!
I love BattleTech! I would happily join a Battletech campaign. Especially if those involved were willing to stage a long-term planetary conflict, where players are split into teams, each player gets a company they have to run through the campaign (repair, salvage, medics, resupply rules all apply), companies not controlled by the players are represented with a game of Battleforce to determine the overall disposition of the conflict each week, and individual skirmishes from that game that DO involve the players’ companies are played out as Battletech scenarios between those players.
Do that with your grimdark 40k grimdarkness! I dare you to try.
Just finishing up Campaign Paradiso for infinity actually. We had a blast running the persistent campaign from that book. The scenarios focus on playing the objectives instead of killing your opponent, so it’s a really brilliant paradigm shift.
In the past 2 years I’ve also run Mordheim and Necomunda leagues with tons of special scenarios. We started precisely because we weren’t happy with GW rules and prices. Maybe it’s just my group, but we’ve actually found that a persistent campaign is much more fun than a “one off” game. Also, lots of people who had fallen away from GW came out to join us in specialist gaming. Most people have the minis kicking around, but at worst, you pick up a box of minis that you really want to paint and convert and you’re all set for months and months of gaming.
People have been asking me for a persistent WHFB campaign with blood in the badlands and mighty empires rules, but at this point I’m leaning more towards Battletech….we all have “some” experience with the game. But I’m really really tempted to run this just out of spite.
Your group might be interested in this (sorry if I’ve pitched it to you before – I just think the Chap deserves some mention for the effort he put into it); http://gangsofnuork.lordblackfang.net/
Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I’ve never seen it before. Will definitely give it a close look. 🙂
If one is sick of how another does business, hit them where it hurts, “The Wallet”. Warmachine, Mantic, Spartan, and the rest the gaming company’s out there should write GW thank you letters for sending other running their way. A shame really, love the games and model but they just priced their way out of the market. At least around here. But it’s ok, if GW is chocolate icecream, you should give strawberry and vanilla a try, mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm good.
sigh
its clear why rick priestley jumped ship the corporate fecks have take over completely and are running the hobby in to the ground at the same time tying milk every drop of cash before the company dies
Not only Rick. Andy was one of the first and I have just fallen profoundly in love with his work on Dust. Alessio doing very exciting work on Loka for Mantic, run by Ronnie, who’s also doing amazing work with Jake and Mike. All of these experienced people are former GW and a lot of the current WHF and 40K is building on the foundations done by them. Of course there is a ton of new and old talent currently at GW doing fantastic work. But when so Manu star players are leaving your team (pun intended), that tends to be a good indicator something is rotten at the core. These guys represent the passionate hobbyists who managed to turn this into their profession. People that older, experienced, hobbyists like myself respect. GW is trying to show that they still care for and support “us” using banner bearers like Jervis and John. Both are cornerstones of the GW brand, but won’t keep me in their universe as a dedicated customer. I’d rather like to see Jervis pouring his heart and energy in a new game than seeing his talent being eaten up by being a “Strategy Manager”. In my opinion, a classic case of utterly wrong “upwards promotion” of creative talent. And I say this with the utmost and longtime respect for Mr. Johnson. Make games, please! There is a reason why Blood Bowl and Necromunda are still hugely popular. How many newer skirmish games do you imagine are build on those? I’m still playing 40K and I’d love to collect a Vampire army. But when I do the math I’m not sure if I want to commit so much of my budget into this. I won’t go in to the business side of this as a lot of people already expressed very good and strong arguments and opinions.
I’m living in Europe. Ordering alternative gaming systems is cumbersome and, in most cases, more expensive than buying GW products, mainly because of shipping costs and added VAT. To be honest, I am getting increasingly inclined to pay the extra costs to try out Warmahordes, Dust, Dystopian Wars, Carnivale or any of the other fantastic new systems out there. I do hope my local retailers, both physical and online, can sustain a valid business by refocusing on diversity rather than 70% or more of their revenue depending on GW. I will certainly do my modest part to support this. I will keep on playing 40K because our little gaming group at the office is a lot of fun and the 40K universe is fantastic, but my army won’t be expanding anytime soon. I won’t start a Vampire force because I’d rather spend that money on broadening my horizons. I have been waiting for the Tau to come out but will more than likely keep my wallet closed. My Necromunda gangs and Blood Bowl teams have been udsted off and campaigns and Leagues are in the making. Some of our gaming group members have promised me an intro game of Warmachine and there is a growing interest in Wild West Exodus. Goodbye, local GW store, you won’t see me anytime soon. Not until there is that balance between business and hobby again where customers are king and respected. But I’m sure I won’t be missed. After all, I’m not the gullible dad coming in with his 11 year old son, spending £200 on miniatures that will never be assembled or painted and never coming back to the store again. I’m the passionate hobbyist who wants to spend time with that single fantastic model and recognise the amazing craftsmanship. But I am starting to ramble now.
“Not only Rick. Andy was one of the first and I have just fallen profoundly in love with his work on Dust. Alessio doing very exciting work on Loka for Mantic, run by Ronnie, who’s also doing amazing work with Jake and Mike.”
And Jake is also doing amazing work over at Bryan’s place. Check out God of Battles from Wargames Foundry 🙂
Ps: sorry for the obvious spelling errors. Damn auto spelling. :-). *so many star players*
The fellow is being far too nice. GW are doing this to control the market and because their numbers say that people going into stores spend more. Stores also don’t tend to discount as much, so higher margins. My local GW is – even on a ‘veterans night’ is full of 16 year old kids. I’m 35. I simply don’t want to spend my evenings with shouty teenagers. We game drinking beer or whiskey. It’s our ‘lads night in’. I also work full time and my weekends are spent doing housework, walking the dog and being with the other half. If we go shopping it’s a commando raid. She doesn’t want to spend all day watching me roll dice.
It’s just about money. Soaking more for less. Games Workshop simply won’t be around in ten years. They’re in it for a quick buck for an eventual sale.
I’m sorry, but as a reasonably well paid and deeply stupid person I spend a lot with Games Workshop. Obviously GW are deliberately hindering getting items to stores apart from their own (thus the interminably long delivery times). Without the 30% off I simply won’t bother. More, I simply can’t be bothered fighting their price rises and seeing them shoot themselves in the foot in this fanatical pursuit of cash.
“The fellow is being far too nice.”
Well, he is Canadian.
GW will be around in ten years. There is a nearly endless supply of teenagers. GW will eventually have to grow some stones and get back on facebook and other social media channels to connect with many of those teenagers, but they’ll never run out of teenagers.
GW……Boooooo.
I second Roamans comment, vote with your wallets people. Money is the only thing GW respects. Its just so sickening to see them ripping kids off year in and year out. Can someone tell me how the hell the parents are affording these prices?
Its a shame, but I would encourage other independants to support and promote other companies – GW is the elephant in the room, but I think it needs to find the old elephant graveyard. I have no issue with a company needing to make money, I have an issue with sharp practices, monopolistic practice and a sad disrespect for the customer base.
As for the GW statement stores are key for hobby interaction – I agree but that from a company that has said if your not a begineer your not welcome to come paint in store or game in store it smacks of pure hypocracy.
All good things must come to an end… sad day indeed 🙁
Ok guys, here is where I am, I am yet to find a anyone in person or online that still considers themselves a ‘fan’ of GW, but most of us, if not all, started with GW products as a gateway into wargaming, so their probably is something in our heart that we still cling onto, remembering the good times. Being nostalgic is about all we have now, and I think its safe to say enough is enough. pack up your GW models, go on ebay, sell the lot. You will lose money based on what you have paid for it, but rather that than being a captive consumer. sell the lot, use the cash to have a spending spree on privateer press games, mantic, spartan, infinity, dark age, warlord, battlefront, or anything else!
The King is dead
Viva La resisitance
You can’t have looked far enough …. I don’t know many who aren’t fans of GW.
Also, will you really lose money? GW’s prices have been hiked well above inflation and often GW stuff sells close to retail on ebay. You’ll get a good wad of your cash back and your loss won’t actually hurt unless you’re unlucky in your bidding – or your miniatures are caked in crap (people, CLEAN your minis before selling!).
Personally, it’s time to kiss goodbye to Fantasy… or try to…. I have a copy of Hail Caesar. Celts and Romans (nearly 50 models for £20 often, brand new this stuff is sold for!).
Warlord Games – Wargames Factory – Gripping Beast < check out their retail prices, so many good miniatures for such little cost!
For Rome!
A lot of us have at one point derived a lot of enjoyment from GW products and the hobby. I have worked for them, met some of my best mates playing their games. Currently my excessively large collection is in the process of being sorted with the aim of build it or sell it by the end of the next finacial year.
Some I will keep as I have invested time and dedication, as such I want to keep these armies – some thing I can finish without any GW purchaes and indeed will get used without future GW rules. Yu can play warhammer without giving GW any more money – not their version of warhammer but your gaming groups.
I am not boycotting them, if they have a mini I want and I can justify the price I will buy it. However, most of my hobby cash is going elsewhere – I am diversifying even further and expanding my other systems. THe fact you can buy into at a meaniful level about 3-5 other systems, at least, at the cost of a reasonable sze GW force akes this an attractive option.
One thing I don’t get it – are they shutting down the whole deal or just the GW part of their business?
If the first applies then I see no reason for that.
If the second one is true then that is the best decision they could make!
They are shutting down almost everything. The online store will only sell Dark Potential (their product) and magnets. Everything else online is being sold off now (buy now btw, sale on) – and their bricks and mortar is closing.
This was always in the pipeline, GW just made it easer for them.
So much GW hate, I mean blatant GW hate not just passive resistance but serious hate. Protecting a business model along with active and ongoing product improvement and churning out awesome new content takes some real commitment to THE CUSTOMER in order to generate BUSINESS from that customer. I only started playing…or sorry was “recruited” by the evil greedy cabal of GW by a friend a few months ago and since I’ve been involved in the hobby, I’ve seen a new rule book, 3-4 new codices, multiple new models, a starter set, new paints,campaign books and literature in abundance. Compared to any other game company in this time frame tell me who else is so prolific and so dedicated to their fan-base/customers. People try to say “play a skirmisher” but hey, buy the starter set and play the several missions in it. Get the free rule book and DL the free errata that they take the time to correct/amend. Play a skirmisher? play a 300 point game, a 500 point game, and 750 point game, make your own missions, make your own chapters. You people make me sick like little pissed off girls who cant all own the silk purse. Go play your stupid skirmishers and shut the Hell up.
snurgle, you are both right and wrong.
What some of us question is if GW’s business model is actually viable. I don’t think it is – I think it’s going to fall down like a house of cards in ten years, and I think GW are constantly making bad choices. This will not generate business, this will destroy GW – and that is why some of us are upset about this.
Secondly I think with some objective claims GW’ last year of models have been poor and average with a few gems here and there. That is not what GW normally do – they normally are hitting the 99%s in class. 2012 marked a change and move towards childishness that didn’t match the fluff or was just badly made. – This is absolute evidence they couldn’t care less about the fan base. So you’re right it takes MONEY and CAPITAL to bring out 3/4 kits a month – but GW stopped making good stuff last year. You have very low standards.
GW’s literature are somewhat separate. In edition these free DLs are often rules clarifications and corrections – things GW should never have had to do in the first place, which means a lack of clear writing and quality control on their part (which means they are selling you dud products btw). In addition the people who write these FAQ are often random staff making random decisions, who had nothing to do with the rules / codex.
You are right that this “play a skirmish” thing is dubious. I don’t want to play a skirmish. And there are NO options for me if I want to play a decent sci-fi fantasy massed wargame.
But then. I’m making my own.
Ten years? are you f*cking serious? The entire global market could dissolve in ten years, what a presumptuous load of crap. Models being good or not is completely in the eye of the beholder. No one else has made as many and as many good ones in the last 6 months. Haters ARE going to hate because the type of consumer that actually makes GW money is obviously not even engaged on the idiot fields of the forums and websites. The vocal minority are the negative breed who cant afford to supply their hobby. GWs literature are not separate in any way. They are pulled straight from the website of the corporation and there has never been an involved game with rules upon rules that break rules to make a game fun without NEEDING errata and clarifications. By your fuzzy logic pro football and Cage fighting are dud products too because their rules got amended through time. It’s not lack of clear writing its sometimes just accepting that the player would surely be able to understand the letter/intent of the rule but ‘competitive’ players who aren’t even ‘supported’ by GW make nonsense claims and rhetoric to force their hand to hold the players’. And it is mostly ‘competitive’ players who want to sign in to a website and get taught how to win not how to play. Your assertion that they are moving towards childish is just that in itself.
Yeah, you don’t know what you’re talking about, I’m out.
The numbers are all there in the GW financial reports.
They are selling less product, for more margin, to maintain their bottom line.
They’ve cut a heap of staff.
This is what a business trying to turn itself around does, not a company at it’s peak.
Ultimately, shutting down retailers or crippling their ability to sell online will hurt GW’s bottom line. But they are far to committed to old school retail to understand.
It may not be 10 years, but unless they change what they are doing, they are going to have to cut more and more, or increase prices higher and higher, or just admit that revenue is falling.
I agree completely.
Furthermore, Games Workshop has a big problem insofar as they can’t really cut anything else away. They have all but crippled their own retail chain by reducing it to one-man stores and kicking the veterans out of the few remaining large shops.
What else can they cut away? The ‘eavy Metal team? The game developers? The sculptors? The artists?
Out of what I’ve read here snurgle your comment is the one filled with the most hate.
I think most gamer’s want to love GW (myself included), but the way they do things, from policies such as this – which means they make it harder for small gaming stores to operate at a profit (I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume they are doing so so they can be the only store in town), along with the blatant money grab of releasing a new edition of 40k/Warhammer every 4 years to keep their addicted player base hooked – and I don’t think it’s a far cry to use such terms, people are not only financially invested in GW but also emotionally invested (as sad and strange as that may be) – hence the hate from anti-GW voices and voices like yours.
There’s a lot of other things also, like the way they make certain units redundant through bad design, the disparity in global prices, the yearly price increases above and beyond the rate of inflation, replacing metal to cheaper materials of less quality yet charging the same or more while trying to convince me it’s the best quality material on the planet, like the resin version of mithril?
The point is if GW was doing everything right there’d be no descent, no angry voices and no hate. They can’t keep their social media accounts because of the criticism (be it justified or not). I agree that the hatred shown by people borders on the insane at times, but I believe it is born more out of frustration than anything else.
I agree smaller games are the way to go – I still enjoy playing 40k (of any edition) even though the game is a chronic mess, I’ll admit it. However GW do not make me happy to spend my money with them due to their non-existant PR and all the reasons I noted above. I know I’m not alone and I know there are others who feel the total opposite.
Their release schedule has only stepped up in the last 6-8 months, before players have had to wait years for any updates and some factions (like Bretonnians, Wood Elves, Dwarfs, Black Templars etc) have had to wait for so long that 2 whole editions have gone by without any releases or even suitable rules updates in some cases for a long time. That’s not what I’d call dedication to a customer, that’s neglect caused by their pursuit of changing rules like clockwork for the sheer financial hell of it.
GW has not upped its releases due to a sense of dedication to its fan-base, it has only done so to inject more cash into their coffers more quickly, which is what it should have been doing for years – whole editions have gone by without entire armies being updated for them. A lot of the stuff you are seeing being released every month has probably been designed in advance, packaged and waiting in a warehouse for a suitable time-frame to be released.
GW is the largest manufacturer with the most popular games and, quite possibly, the best models (for most people anyway). However its games are not the best and it is pretty much the only manufacturer who doesn’t have its own forums or social networking hubs due to people’s continued disatisfaction.
I don’t know about you but to me that speaks volumes to me in and of itself, regardless of the internet being filled with opinionated crazy people 🙂
No company can do everything right , get real. I suppose we should all hate monopoly for putting out so many different editions to their game that changes no part of the gameplay whatsoever just fills their coffers with cash, how dare they capitalize on the gameplay that is already there.
Sigh…
I agree no company can, for the most part, do everything right to everybody – there will always be those that praise and blame in life. However GW continue to do many things that make them the most profit, without really giving us more value, whilst telling us it’s all for our benefit. For example every new Codex they release is rehashed and most gamers only really need the rules and the army list, so most people are paying for 1/3 of the book.
A better company would release both the Codex book (which people may want which is fine) and the rules/army list seperately as a download, for instance – I don’t think people would mind spending £5-10 to get the new rules for their army (whilst most other companies offer such things for free – you may argue becuase they have to).
As it is GW over-inflate the cost of their codex/army books, when I could buy a much larger (200+ page) hardback book for the same price of equal, if not better, quality – the typo’s and grammar errors of the new Dark Angels Dex, for instance,are simply not good enough for the price GW are charging. The difference between now and a few years ago is that I KNOW I’m getting ripped off if I were to purchase a Codex – I used to buy them all as I enjoyed reading them. Of course they have a right to profit. I think what most people are saying here is that they are no longer willing (or at least apprehensive or regretting) having to pay £30 for a 90-100 page Codex, filled with the same lore (if not changed for the better or worse) for years and pictures of models they have seen over the internet and in store already. As it is a Codex book is only £15 less than the 452 page rulebook, whilst being a quarter (or less) of the size – that’s just not gravy to me, if anything it’s exploitative 🙂
I know GW have lost money from people like me, who would have bought all Codex books even if they didn’t collect the armies, simply by over-inflating the cost of them. So instead of £180-200 they’d be getting from me every edition, they end up getting nothing. I know hardback and coloured books are a novelty to them but that doesn’t justify the cost. If they were more expansive tomes, say 200-300 pages with special scenarios, alternate army lists, painting guides, full short stories etc, then the current cost would be justified…instead they follow the same format since 2nd Ed (skipping over the 3rd Ed leaflets).
Your Monoply analogy just proves that Monoply isn’t a broken game (unlike 40k) – it’s great (IMO) and all that really changes is the theme. No one is forced to buy every edition of Monopoly, yet with Warhammer/40k they are pretty much forced into buying new books & toys (which again I think most gamers want) in order to remain competitive.
I agree most players are casual players so this may not be as big an issue as others like to make out. However even at my local club last night I talked to people who are reluctant to pay full GW prices (with most saying they never buy direct) – even though they love the games. I think many people are looking more towards the second hand market and proxy models because of GW’s narcisistic obsession over its own “quality” – which they confuse with model design and aesthetics. The majority of hard plastic miniatures available are of equal to or better quality (in terms of material), whilst their design may be lacking compared to all GW’s bells and whistles. I’d even say that this is largely not the case anymore with CAD design becoming more common place. I bought a £12 Gundam kit, which articulates and didn’t require a drop of glue, that was the equal if not better than all the GW kits I’ve put together over the years. The only difference is if GW produced it it would be £30-40, instead of the £12.
GW is, in my opinion, in danger of alienating its longer serving customers (which help others get into the GW hobby) through its pricing, as well as through corporate policies such as the disparity of global prices etc. They have a right to do so, of course, but the longer they continue to act with the pomp and arrogance they display at times, will only mean more people looking elsewhere for product. This latest move in Canada simply means that not enough people were buying from them direct, for whatever reason. Does GW think that people will still do so and at the rates that they buy from discount retailer’s? I don’t know, but I don’t think so.
GW is insular, even Rick Priestley has said that one of the mantra’s of the company is “there is no competition” – which may as well translate to “we can get away with what we like”. I don’t think they can for much longer, sooner or later their aggressive pursuit of continual price increases will catch up to them. Every dollar spent on another game is a dollar not spent at GW – it is only through them dropping numerous balls (possibly marbles) that most of these other games companies exist – they’d do well to remember that.
Releasing a whole bunch of corrections and clarifications a mere day after Codex Dark Angels :p
lol @snurgle You’ve only been playing for a few months, so I’ll give you a bit of context. Firstly, March/April is the typical “GW” does crazy shit time. We get an insane policy change, followed a price increase. This is a special/magical time of year, when we all band together as a community and pile our hate on GW. It’s like some kind of sick inverted version of Christmas. I call it “hates-mas-time” and it provides an important sociological function. We all forget about what’s op, and who is a cheese hound and we all join our voices in unison. Quite beautiful when you start thinking about it. People mail out lots of letters, and buy up models before the price rise. It’s secret ritual going back to 09′ and it’s a time of year when we stop to reflect and forge strong bonds among ourselves. :P.
But supposedly this is new to form from GW in the last 6 months, unprecedented coffer filling even. 🙂
End of fiscal year ’13, start of fiscal year ’14. Create shareholder backup to keep the value of shares stable and try to project a strong business model for the future to generate share trade and increase the overall company stock exchange value. Did anyone notice what their new strategy is regarding the new digital development licenses after THQ went bust? We are going to get more diversity and, oh so many crap games for each good one. It’s all about the money. Thank heavens FFG are an amazing company with great developers.
You are a shining example of why I must go against my own pedigree and not only say but rally around the right for abortion to remain legal.
Once again GW thumping its chest again…. This has been going on now for years, they will never learn as they like to bully people into their way. They also have no respect their customer base and for them to treat us as idiots is poor.
The main problem is people will still pay for their product no matter what the price is or if they have to only get it from them direct. I think people should vote with their wallets and move onto other great games out there as I did a few years ago. There is more this great hobby than Games workshop…
Just one more reason why I do not support GW or buy any of their crap.
@Snurgle.
Two days in and over to the second page before some one throws a pissy fit and calls everyone “haters” just because they don’t want to roll over for GW to tickle their bellies.
This is pretty much a record. IMHO it suggests that the tide has turned against GW’s idiocy.
For the record and for the umpteenth time:
The reason why a lot of people get so annoyed is not because the “hate” GW, but because they are fed up with the manner of operations. They are frustrated at this because they actually like the products and games.
If the management changed tomorrow and started to act as a rational business once more and showed real respect for customers and traders, I would start playing again.
Now if you actually read what people say instead of labelling just criticism as “hate” you would be able to see that for yourself.
I read every line and there is pure hate there. You have no idea what rational business is, when was the last multinational, multilingual miniatures manufacturing and rule making entity that you have run been scrutinized by others. Please. My local game store supports almost every mini game out there and the only one that truly sells well is GW and M:TG and yet they still will stock other stuff to get people into other games. They never complain about minimums and guess what they never discount GW products either. They sell on merit of credibility and quality and the community belief, trust and reliance on the business. For over 20 years I might add. Manner of operations is to have stock of product and fast turn around to the stores, reasonable prices for what the market can bear and availability of information at the customers disposal. Twice I have called to complain about finecast being too bad for what it is worth, twice they have looked at my online account and mailed me new product no questions asked. That, I would say, trumps your assumption that they just accidentally exist with no rational business actions.
I think you serious misunderstand hatred, the video and the posters are not attacking or hating GW they are simple expressing unhappiness at business conduct and disappointment that it has come from a company that used to be both an effective business and a positive force within the hobby (Although some older players would argue otherwise)
Oh and don’t pull the you have never run a mutlinational company so your not qualified to comment, its an invalid point and makes you look like an ass (You could be a great bloke, but thats not the image your projecting). The only hatred I have found is from yourself, if you don’t like reading other opinions don’t read em, walk away from the interwebz. If you disagree respond in a constructive manner, start a discussion on merit not emotive ranting.
If you local area only plays MTG and GW stuff then more the pity diversity is a massive positive for the hobby in business and personal enjoyment. Every business must have their own strategy – I know if my local game store relied on selling GW at full price, it would not work – local factors will effect each game store. Every business is a semi-unique case – core principles apply but then clientelle, locality and market will vary.
You are, to borrow from the military, confusing tactics with strategy.
No one has criticised the customer service. The overall business methods leave a lot to be desired, however. There is nothing rational about cutting off your balls to spite your cock old fruit.
This, “play a skirmish” thing was presented as something as well as, not as a replacement for GW.
The sad thing is GW’s dominance over the last 20 years means there just aren’t any truly established 28mm scifi *battle* games around, and the few that are trying have an uphill struggle, so they often use the leg-up of designing their models to work as counts-as GW stand ins like Mantic’s Warpath or they just go down like Rackham with AT43 and a million others most of us never even got to hear about.
The thing is, If GW went under tomorrow, the Intellectual properties would be in someone else s hands by Monday, and by this time next year they’d be the big fish again, but without gw’s retail chain, the pond would be much smaller. In a perfect world GW would separate the retail chain from the model company, instead of spending money to make what are now outdated and substandard hobby products like the figure cases, bring in better products like battlefoam, and stock some forgeworld products in store. There are also several products GW should be selling to us all but don’t, for instance rather than ipad only digital rules, if they were going to restrict the device you can run them on, why the hell didn’t they get some cheap droid tablets load ’em up with the rulebook, switch around the connections on a flash drive and cards for the codices and storage, DRM the b’jesus out of it Stamp an Aquila(and possibly some skulls) on its backside and charge us £100?
The reasons for all of this are simple- the people in charge are all old farts, and millionaires already, they only need GW (more importantly happy shareholders) for about 5 or 6 more years, at that point they’ll be retired, and everyone else from the new guys in charge to the everchangingcolour-shirts can rot.
Your assertions are rather ridiculous. Who gives you the authority to say the IFs and THENs about GW? I understand opinions , I have them too but you talk as if you know something that we don’t, we all see the same thing from different angles. You see the bank statements and address books of the upper management? Please.
in fact, the earnings of the top management should be in their fiscal report. again I cba to check.
Ok, I actually did look it up. In 2012 this was reported:
T H F Kirby – 352.000
M N Wells – 266.000
K D Rountree – 202.000
That’s British Pounds ofc.
oh yea, and Kirby got 1.9M Pounds from dividends from his shares
Well I am sure that Dark Potential will keep you guys in business…
Also as a side point games suck as Warmachine do scale up to a size battle of your choice as would any of the other games that are branded as “skirmish”.
For instance at tournament level X wing is played at 100 points, however I had a 200 point 6 player game with my mates that lasted four hours and was epic fun! Make the games what you will the points cost means you can scale up or down as you please.
I don’t buy anything from GW any more as the rules are clunky in my opinion and I got fed up of throwing fistful’s of dice. GW business plan sucks in my opinion and I can’t be bothered whining about it I just voted with my feet and went to another system Warmachine that is amazing and the best table top minis game I have played ever! Also X wing is amazing and I have a growing fleet of ships as a secondary game. Also due to Tabletop and my friends liking boxed board games I play them also and my gaming life is varied and interesting.
This hobby may have GW as the market leader however it have variety and diversity within it . Make the hobby suit you not the other way around I say.
Gotta get into this X-Wing stuff. Are the models to scale i.e an X-Wing is larger than a TIE Fighter?
Yes they are to scale
That’s cool that you have friends to play boxed games with too.
So many good things out there but not worth getting as I would be unlikely to get any real use from them.
On the other hand I would end up bankrupt if I did! Good job I don’t have any friends lol
I love GW. I love how I started collecting their stuff 10 years ago. I love how GW gives you the opportunity to buy a new rulebook every few years at ever higher prices. I love how GW’s attitude towards both their customers and retailers have evolved over those past 10 years. It was because of all this love I’ve had a ton of GW stuff to sell and totally fund my MERCS and Malifaux endeavors. Thanks GW. I love you.
Same here, but I invested mt refunds in Infinity and Warmachine 🙂
I’ve bought my last GW figure. No more…
For me, I’m not that wealthy (sadly!) so it got to a point for me where even the discounts just werent enough (especially when they were “last years” normal prices!). I’ve been happier since I started working on my own game and making the kind of models I’d always wanted to see, which didn’t really exist – so I don’t really see it as a bad thing as it got me to be productive in a positive way.
Anyway, I hope whatever these guys choose to do – they’ll be happy and be able to make a living doing something they enjoy.
That’s brilliant that you’re making your own game!
Games Workshop are reminding me more and more of another (similarly sized) UK specialist retail company who tried to treat their customers like idiots. I used to work for this other company – its name was Jessops, and they recently went bust. So many things were similar – customers were treated like they were less than cattle IMO.
The idiots who run these companies don’t care though – they just jump from one cushy job/failed business to the next. Shareholders ruin companies, and this is what is happening here. It’s just growth worship – they expect more from less year on year, and it just isn’t a sustainable business model.
I’m a big fan of 40k, but the way things are going, I’d rather play a game with a smaller community from a company which treats its customers like customers – not like cattle. I actually bought something from a GW bricks and mortar shop the other day for the first time in a long while. I was talking to the sales guy about it, when I mentioned that I was going to magnetise the minis so I could use different load outs on them. The guy’s face dropped, and he instantly clammed up – it’s obviously against company policy to discuss saving money by magnetising things. This pretty much sums up GW for me right now.
r.i.p m.w.g
Well I read through a good number of replies and you guys fail to mention what I will now…
Miniwargaming has had a direct and totally positive impact on our hobby, one of the few retailers to actually give back to the community with a volley of video content that was very entertaining indeed.
“You guys will be greatly missed as a retailer” I didn’t mind the extra money because of the vault and other things you put out.
One thing is certain I will never buy jack when it comes to GW now…
I been telling you guys for a better part of a year now Privateer Press and other game makers are the future of our hobby.
Its time to take the hobby back with our wallets
Also a round of applause for BoW for continued support of kick starter projects -kudos- 🙂
Indeed, the power of independant s to support and promote GW is one they have recently failed to recognise and constantly overlooked.
Best of luck to MWG in their future endevours.
So many different issues affecting retail
Outlets following this new GW policy. It’s certainly
Disappointing to hear MWG’s store is going
Out of business. Is what GW is doing a restraint of
Free trade or should they be allowed to control the
Flow of their product as they wish? Hopefully there’ll be a resolution before
Too many
Other retailers stop trading and they can keep
Making money. GW’s short-sightedness may
Kill their business
If they keep this up.
Right now you wonder how many people will keep
Buying from them if more and more outlets go out of business.
You’re welcome.
How poetic
Shows hoe uncultured I am! I couldnt work out whether it was poetry or the limitations of typing on a smartphone!
Hangs head in shame 🙁
it’s an homage to the contents page of White Dwarf issue 77.
As far as MWG is concerned how cool is it that by selling GW merchandise they are able to spend time playing games all this time and taking time to film it and edit it and post it up and comment on it? all because they were making enough money by selling GW products to the masses in order to spend time playing games. If the Dark Potential game takes off then will they use that money to afford new/more GW videos or more Dark Potential models rulebooks, terrain etc? Will they sit back and sell to every tom dick and harry and let them discount their IP into oblivion or will they price fix and protect their product from over saturation by unscrupulous min-margin business models? I wonder if they hit it really big I mean really really big will we see them 10%-30% off retail all over eBay this time next year? Or will they protect their product on their own website and manage who buys how much and where they operate out of. Sour Grapes I say but time will tell…
How dare a company promote another companies products to make a living – oh wait, no that would be a great example of the power of independants and adding value to both companies. MWG manage to make a living from gaming through their efforts and abilities as business people and retailers – it was not a free ride from GW.
In addition I put this counter point to you, if other companies can afford to make money selling GW at big discounts, it just highlights the margin GW places on their products – if your margin was smaller – so your products were more reasonably priced – people couldn’t consistantly discount at 30% as they would be making a loss. No other miniature company has an issue with their retailers selling at discount, cause they are still making money off each sale for no outlay in retail staff.
These retailers promote the manufactures products, often excellently and drive sales far higher then the manufacture would them self. As a personal example if all non GW stores closed in the UK would buy a lot less from GW – as there staff no longer offer excellent services as they are forced into the pressure sale approach. They don’t run in store events so I would never be bothered thinking about the latest rules sets, so further lost sales. In short manufacturer and retail is a partnership something GW fails to understand in their current model. They see every sale by a retail that discounts as lost revenue arrogantly assuming they would achieve that sale.
Oh and in most countries you will find price fixing is illegal which is why GW is use these circumspect routes to discourage other selling theri products. I almost hope they suceed so they can see what an error they are making. This is not sour grapes on MWGs part, it is a reasonable public expression of dismay at a trading partners strategy – which is actually presented in a fair and balanced manner.
Anyhow theat 2 more responces from me then your posts deserve, in the vague hope you might open your eyes to the discussion.
wait, are you calling MWG “freeloaders”. ridiculous.
If and when what happens, remains to be seen. Untill then, you should refrain from throwing speculations and accusations around without facts.
They way i see it that MWG are simply engaging with their customers with mutimedia; that’s just smart business by not only reinvesting with cash but with passion. What’s wrong with that? Please also remember that GW also was originally an independant retailer back in the 70/80’s – pretty much what MWG is doing today.
This push by GW to protect its IP may be a great catalyst for MWG’s own product range; nothing like a crises to stimulate creativity.
Lastly snurgle, we all play with toy soldiers here in this forum; please use a bit of perspective and less of the cynicism – lifes too short!
ARG.
GW SELL THEIR PRODUCTS TO RETAILERS AT A MASSIVE DISCOUNT in bulk.
The fact that your locals are selling them at full retail just means they’re taking a 60% 70% cut of what GW discounted to them, rather than pass the savings on to you.
You are aware that price fixing is illegal right? Just seeking clarity rather than feeding the argument.
I think by price-fixing he means GW being the only retailer of their product… I think?
I’m not talking about price fixing, I’m talking about margin protection in order to run a profitable retail business. The onus is mostly on the manufacturer of goods sold at wholesale to create liquidity at profit for its retailers, even if that retailer is a companies own fulfillment facility. If the product was junk it would not sell. If the numbers did not jive the strategy would change. If the margins are not protected by MAP policies and standard business practices then the B&M stores would fizzle. I’m what they call on the internet a ‘grown ass man’ able to afford what I am interested in. There are enough of us to keep companies like Anhueser Bush, Sony, Microsoft, WotC, Bethesda, Alienware, Coke, Chivas Regal, Games-Workshop, Apple, Electrolux, Toyota, local restaurants, etc. etc. alive because we work for what we want as long as our needs are taken care of. There are too damn many things like politics, criminals, gasoline prices and human rights violations to crab about for there to be so much negativity on a gorram plastic toy company.
Idiots on eBay selling unboxed, most likely counterfeited, product for very little discount and online retailers drop shipping for profit is not the tack GW seems to need or want to take. Get over it and move on right? Play a different game (just dont chime in on a batrep like an idiot and feel like a fool it really gets you know where trust me haha) I’m obviously playing Devil’s Advocate so I see why I am deemed a cynic, I get it, I’m big I can handle it. Just to reflect and Thanks Warzan for not limiting the font count of a post 🙂
Here is what I see as negative, unnecessary, derogative hate about a company that is going to do what it is going to do.
A sampling of previous comments, context at discretion…..
Vondrasky: They don’t deserve your money…
Chibi: GW have no respect for their customers who are treated as cash cows.
I don’t care if they still make a profit, the company has sold its soul, so sod ‘em.
Vondrasky: …if GW goes bankrupt the better
Warspawned: At this stage even God may be facepalming at GW’s stupidity.
Chibi: This is yet another indication of GW’s insularity and lack of understanding and/or caring about anything beyond the walls of the mighty Citadel.
ps What @warspawned sed.
Mpopke: GW doesn’t care about us, remember? They want 12-year-olds.
Bubbles15: Games Workshop simply won’t be around in ten years. They’re in it for a quick buck for an eventual sale.
Dags: GW is the elephant in the room, but I think it needs to find the old elephant graveyard.
Demise: I am yet to find a anyone in person or online that still considers themselves a ‘fan’ of GW, pack up your GW models, go on ebay, sell the lot.
Most of these are what forums are for, discussion, so I respond how I see it as well. I’m not really looking for right/wrong as much as why/why not.
I buy full price, paint full detail, play with full sound effects 😉 and store in full battlefoam and enjoy Andy and Darrel and Ming and Stu and even Warren’s! antics and info…no matter how cheesy.
It seems my comment has offended you, for that I apologise, maybe I should put it another way
‘if you dont want to support the company, dont support the company, if you want to leave it altogether, there are alternatives’
Is that less negative, unnecessary derogative hate for you? And I am very, very, very sorry that someone like me makes you vomit.
Think we’ll be seeing a lot more closures when 3D printing properly arrives on a mass scale. The lack of diversification in a lot of these businesses will mean we’ll probably be seeing a lot of new names at the top in 10 years time. It’ll be interesting to see how all the publishers handle it when that wave finally hits 😉
This has always boggled my mind when it came to similar things in the past from GW.
How can they call their own retailers “freeloaders” ? The product being sold still comes from them (GW). How can they even remotely think up the idea that they have the right to dictate what discount a shop owner gives? If GWs distribution channels are sub optimal, that’s what they get.
If anything GW has been “freeloading” from the many blogs and sites dedicated to their product.
How can they declare that teens are their primary target group in this day and age, yet completely forget about every new technology the hats has come up since the internet became mainstream? How can they price the stuff for employed adults at the same time? The attention span of youths has diminished over the last decade, how can they possibly expect a 15-year-old to spend 800GBP for a starter army (+ all the acc.) and a considerable amount of time to enjoy this hobby? 800 bucks gets you an x-box and and a ton of games. Sure, if they sold to an elitist customer base, but they are not, quite the opposite according to their own statements.
And how can they dare in this day and age to completely ignore customer criticism? And not only that, to even try to censor and quench it? IN THIS DAY AND AGE?
Srsly WTH?
I salute MWG for their decision.
I think it has to do with the rather unique UK-centric viewpoint that stores are where you come to learn the rules, play the game, paint your miniatures etc., all without being charged anything. So of course they don’t want you to go and buy from an internet retailer.
This, of course, entirely ignores the reality of the real world:
1) It’s not really free – we all help pay for the stores when we buy their products.
2) Veterans are no longer welcome, nor are painters. Newbs only, thank you.
3) One-man stores do not provide opportunities for painting and gaming at all.
4) Many, in fact most, areas of the world have no Games Workshop stores and have gotten rather feed up with having to pay for this so-called Games Workshop Experience ™. Which, in any case, you can’t get any longer…
That, I think, is why they consider non-GW stores to be “freeloaders”. They believe that they, and they alone, are recruiting new players and that indy-stores are then simply taking advantage of the market that Games Workshop, and Games Workshop alone, has created.
It’s a horribly old-fashioned and out-of-touch-with-reality mindset that seems to have crept in over the last decade or thereabout. As they said themselves: “the internet is just a fad”.
In short: in a world of internet retailers sending goods all over the world, Games Workshop is still desperately clinging to the old brick’n’mortar shops model, which is slowly killing them, believing that they exist in a vacuum with no competition.
Also, remember that they consider their customers to be price insensitive. And thus, by shutting down the indy-stores providing deep discounts on the internet, they expect all the customers effected to immediately switch to Games Workshops own store, paying their crazy retail prices and full (over-charged) shipping. And that, of course, would mean more profit to themselves.
and why isn’t there and edit button to remove my anger fueled spelling errors?
Amen to that one, and my fat fingered typing
Yew shed tip mo carfooley olse yew wool ind op sanding lick the Poloosemoan frim ‘Alloo ‘Alloo.
rofl
I am glad MWG is working out a new business model. Matt et al, I look forward to seeing more fun stuff coming from you guys. GW will reap what they sow. What is interesting to me is how amazingly healthy the gaming industry is right now. So many cool new games are appearing. My limited money and time will likely be spent on what is new. Nostalgia will get me into a battle now and again using well worn armies. But times being what they are, GW will not profit from my entertainment dollar. I am no longer spending hundreds of dollars a year on miniatures.
Your comment about the health of the gaming industry just hit me with some personal experience. I ran a little sporting goods store in 2002, not the store just the lil hole in th eback corner called a paintball dept. Paintball was around for years before but was about to blow up! I personally drove to Tennessee to train on fixing guns, airsmithing it’s called. went from selling 4000 dollars in 2001 to about 500,000 in 2002 and to over 2million, yes 2 million in 2004! by buying the good stuff, selling to the customer with features and benifits and holding to MSRP and not bending to “do you match internet” because of the service.
anyway your comment reminds me of a enrty level company called Spyder, they had the best quality entry level guns on th eplanet at the time, Tipmann was good too but not on my point. and other companies like JT, Elite and Brass Eagle, the countless knock-offs who tried to get market share and still to this day you might see them. Those companies were in wal-mart and cabellas and huge chains while i was selling Spyder (by Kingman) guns to REPLACE those guns for poor mothers whos sons had realized they bought what looked like a Spyder, but was instead a gas filled ball blender. If the new games you mentioned are good viable substitutions then that will be good for some. But there is a high probability that they are the fly by nights needing a cash grab that will get those who purchased it into the Spyder of the hobby, Games-Workshop. Just a scenario that seems legit to me. Now discuss Kingman,Tipmann,Smart Parts, Dye and Planet Eclipse escalation strategies with me 🙂 Ballers know…;)
This is correct.
I too have felt that people who buy cheap will often buy twice! Because no matter what they want the best. It’s up to all manufacturers to realise this and differentiate thier offering so they can be the best at that bit!
I can see your point, but I don’t think the comparison is a straight as you make it out to be.
Many of these competitors are catering to a different audience. For better or worse, Games Workshop now sell mass-combat games whereas competitors like Infinity and WarMachine are skirmish level games.
As such, even for those of us who’re old enough to remember the start of 40K, these games have an attraction that Games Workshop simply doesn’t have – namely a skirmish game with a low model count and a reasonable buy-in cost.
Also, going by personal experience here, Games Workshop has now raised the price so high that, even believing that they’re the best there is (and I’d vehemently disagree with that), many players never progress form “second best” as they simply cannot afford it.
In effect, Games Workshop themselves have, rather ironically, given their competitors a huge boost by pricing their models so ridiculously high. Privateer Press, Battlefront, Malefaux, Infinity, Dust, etc. are all going strong and there have been several Kickstarter project that racked money in hand over fist.
To me, this suggests that there is a huge marked for non-GW wargames. And, whereas those Mal-Wart guns you mentioned were of dubious quality, these games are all very solid.
It is not a question of this OR that, but one of this AND that.
Instead of dropping a ton on GW you can get set up for a skirmish game as well.
@snurgle I can relate to your story, but I don’t think it is an applicable analogy for the gaming market. GW are not the small premium line of gaming, and they haven’t been for the last six years or so. When I stopped buying GW stuff (way back in 2005, not a recent event) I went on a quest to find an alternative game -something I highly recommend even if you want to stick with 40k/fantasy; learning about all the games on the market was very fun. I was shocked by how many great little games were out there ready to grow. If I took that same quest today I would be nearly choked with great options far more healthy than what I found back then.
Gaming and miniature components of any game are never necessarily of the same quality also needs to be taken into account. In the minis department GW have top-quality plastic miniatures. Their infantry models have dozens of rivals, but not many are in plastic yet -and their large kits are nearly unrivaled. The only real drawback is how many models you need to buy for a game. GW’s rules however, are among the poorest on the market. Even their FAQs need FAQs. As far as models go: GW is like a fine restaurant that tries to sell the common man a banquet in spite of his average appetite and their premium (but somewhat justified) pricing. As for their rules: GW is like McDonalds that charges steakhouse prices.
Seven or eight years ago you might be right in saying their competition are likely fly-by-night operations that will crumble, but today’s market has a stable of higher-profile alternatives have reached their five year anniversaries (or ten in the case of warmachine). There could still be a few shady companies ready to bust in the market mind you. I would caution others to watch out for companies that rely too heavily on crowd funding. Sales need to be the heart of a company’s income -not donations.
From reading your comments I can tell you are a fervent fan of GW and have personal experience with how online sales can be damaging for a market. You have also been brave enough to wade through an ocean of rancor to express an opposing viewpoint. I respect that.
Your attitude to those who are upset at this situation however, is appalling. A pillar of the gaming community has been shaken and people have lost their jobs because of a draconian business policy by their distributor. I would have expected a greater degree of sympathy from any small business owner.
Sad to see MWG go, but I gotta say good luck to GW. Sarcastically. They seem intent on pushing themselves out of a market they themselves created. They almost took it to a mass market. But they are not interested anymore – if a handful of fans will make up the profit that a hundred used to provide them, then good luck to them i say. It’s not a business practice that’s ever worked, but hey, we’re not here to tell them how to run their business are we.
Its a massive shame no one company has come along to challenge/compete against their market dominance – sure Mantic and PP are getting there, but there’s no-one quite leading as they do.
I look forward to the day when hobby stores do not need to rely on the income from GW sales. I suppose it’s our own fault at the end of the day. I ain’t bought any GW stuff for five years or so, only visiting their store to check what kind of a profit I can expect on my eBay items!
Here’s hoping for some more positive interesting times ahead.