December 14, 2011 by beerogre
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Andy and Darrell take a look at an Eldar Army list submitted by one of our viewers.
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Just wondering about fireprisms x3 and you have a pretty heavy firebase also wraith lords are pretty good for a brightlance platform.
Other thing id like to see is more D cannons they are probably my favorite ranged weapon and i hardly see them used because of their cost especially on heavy weapon teams ( also in the heavy support section if i recall).
Last thing id like beats of war to try is see how many lascannon shots it takes to destroy a falcon with holofields and a farseer casting re-rollable saves moving flat out. it even makes the chance for just a denial armylist with rangers and a 2+ cover (possible re-rolls from farseer)
And ofcourse spirit stones on the falcon.
#1. Eldrad is one of the most powerful CC models in the game. WS5, T4, I5, 3Wo, 3++ rerollable invul, 3 attacks on the charge, Power weapon that wounds on a 2+ or S9 versus vehicles.
#2, Fire Dragons in a Falcon is a TERRIBLE recommendation. Please update your strategies to 5th edition.
#3. Witchblades are S9 + 1D6 pen
#4. Wave Serpents are one of the most difficult to damage vehicles in the game if not the most difficult. The BEST odds ANY shot in the game will have against front and side armor is a 50% chance to damage with a 33% chance to pen.
#5. Nothing beats rangers as troops…? Um.. wow. Seriously? Do you guys even play 40k? Rangers/Pathfinders are the single worst troop choice eldar have.
#6. DA Bladestorm is an offensive troop build, not an objective grabbing build. You get out and fire 32 s4 BS4-5 shots and with a Farseer reroll all shooting and wounds.
#7. Nightspinner are the option kit that comes with Fire Prisms. The Nightspinner is a devastating weapon that typically will do more kills then a prism blast. It’s Twin Linked, Rending, Large Blast, and every unit hit by the blast takes dangerous terrain if they move. Nightspinners take either nothing or Holos + Stones.
#8. The falcon is a Long Range gunboat for anti medium vehicle. The Night spinner is anti infantry, two different roles.
#9 Harlequins do grant cover. Veil of tears only activates if you target the harlies unit. Therefor they would still grant a 4+ to anything targeting through their coherency.
As I watched this I got angrier and angrier. You are giving TERRIBLE advise to perspective Eldar players. Please if you are going to review an Eldar list, have someone available that actually knows what they are the hell they talking about. PLEASE PLEASE do not listen to this video as i have listened to a lot of bad advise on forums… this takes the cake.
You are absolutely right … i would like to see a rating system that would stick this post to the top :>
i normaly like the tipps of BoW, even if there are some mistakes here and there, but this one was a little bit disappointing
I would agree to most of this… BUT
Pathfinders are great heavy infantry killers, Termies kinda die against them when there’s 10 of them in a building with a 2+ cover save,
I’d also say a Falcon can potentially be a heavy vehicle killer, especially when its already got a 2 shot pulse laser on it…
but yea, you tell the truth dude, what list would you personally have then for 1,500pts?
At 1500 a competitive Eldar lists looks something like:
Farseer w/ RoWard, Guide (In falcon)
2x 5 Fire Dragons + Wave Serpent w/ Scatter Lasers
2x Dire Avengers + Wave Serpent w/ Scatter Lasers
5 Dire Avengers (In Falcon)
3 GJB w/ S Cannon + Warlock w/ Spear, Embolden
2x Nightspinner w/ Holofields
1x Falcon w/ EML, Holofields, Stones
4 Troops and 7 Skimmers. Unit focus breakdown: 2 Anti-heavy AV, 2 Anti-Medium to Heavy AV, 4 Anti-Light AV, and 2 LB Anti-Infantry.
PS: please post the list, without points costs obviously, so I can give this poor guy some knowledgeable advice.
good idea, if they put up the list on the vid as well it may give someone a chance to look at it before they forget it…
I have played Eldar for a couple of years now and I must agree with bluedagger here.
Rangers are cool models but thats already it. If you take Rangers as the core of your army you have to whipe out the enemy by turn 3 or so, because otherwise you get crushed in CC. Even a troop of guardsmen would kill a squad of Rangers in one CC phase. They die way to fast for their costs. Normally I also recommend DA as your troop choice, the offensive build works good against other troops.
Eldrad is not bad in CC, he can take quite a lot of damage because of his good save and his reroll, but on the other side he doesn’t kill a lot of other modells because he has so few attacks. I wouldn’t consider him one of the most powerful CC Models, he’s just not bad.
Furthermore I think that Firedragons in a Falcon are not that bad. Usually they die fast but they get the job done. I am ready to pay 80 points of Firedragons if they whipe your 250p Land Raider from the table. 🙂
The issue with Dragons in a Falcon is not the Dragons, it is the Falcon. A Falcon is a 180 point investment that has 3 S8 48″ shots when kitted properly and it’s biggest weakness is melta. You are first off negating it’s shots by moving full out for the Dragons, negating it’s range by closing on your opponent, and putting it in range of it’s biggest weakness melta.
Falcon Loadout – EML, Holos, Stones w/ 5 DA inside and preferably something to cast Guide on it.
Fire Dragon loadout – 5 Dragons in a Serpent w/ Scatter Lasers.
Not only is the Serpent cheaper, but it has a vastly increased chance to not take damage on top of a natural resistance to melta when you are getting in range.
Also Eldrad’s killing potential per turn is greater then most whole units. If there is no invul save on your target then you have pretty much assured 1 kill per turn while the returning hit have to get through a 3++/3++ save. This leads to a lot of matches Eldrad along winning by one. I’m soloed Dreads with Eldrad more times then I can count.
I’ll say Hi to you all first as I have not posted before, here goes…..Dire Avengers are great my list runs with two squads of 10 in wave serpents. You can not evaluate their use in isolation as like most of the Eldar it needs another element to make it work, generally a Farseer of some description……. Bladestorm with guide and doom, and if there is anything left do it again with the 2nd squad, most people I play find that quite aggressive not a last resort.
I’ll give the big unit of pathfinders a go though (good excuse to paint some more) see how I get on, i have only got 6 at the moment and use them as an annoying distraction but if the enemy takes an interest in them they don’t last long. I certainly wouldn’t use them to hold an objective though.
Eldrad over a normal Farseer I’ll go along with a normal farseer option but then mine never intentionally gets out of his Falcon.
Bluedagger……Can’t disagree with you… but I do mount my Dragons in a Falcon usually people are so peed off with the dragons they don’t have anything left to shoot at the falcon.
Heavy support(tank wise) I like Falcons over prisms although I have just built a Nightspinner tonight so i can exchange this for one my falcon when faced with more footsloggers. You sure about Large Blast I thought it was Small? Hope your right and I’m wrong.
BoW guys I really enjoy this website even when I don’t agree with what you say, It is definately well informed opinion even when you are having a pop at my beloved Eldar.
As for the list that sparked it all I’d just exchange the nightspinners for falcons and drop in a nightspinner when i needed one. Eldar are still a good army when played properly.
The Doomweaver is Large blast, only in the rules the formatting is a bit off, so the “Large” part of “Large blast” is under the range, separated from the rest of the weapon type information by a huge gap.
nice one i like the sound of this model even more can’t wait for monday night when I get to use it
@bluedagger … opinions will differ with the current meta-game. As we’re used to playing in a tournament environment, Rangers are much better than Dire Avengers… they claim objectives quickly and can camp there with a solid cover save to protect them.
Rangers (Pathfinders really) have a better range than DA and Guardians. They are more accurate over range and give foot-slogging armies nightmares… they can also take a pop at light vehicles… something many don’t expect.
Experiences with Dire Avengers may differ, but they have poor range and sub-par melee ability. If they had power weapons, I would agree that they were worth their points (even a few more)… but when Inquisitorial Crusaders come in at 15pts with Power Weapon & Storm Shield, backed up by Warrior Acolytes with Bolters (for 5 pts each) the DA are just a little shoddy for their points.
I’m actually a competitive Eldar tournament player and have a multitude of tournament wins and top table placings to include winning Hardboyz prelims for the last two years. I can say whole heartedly that unless your tournament Meta has not caught up to current 5th edition standards, Rangers are utter garbage.
First off they weigh in at 19pts or 24pts as pathfinders. They can not move and shoot while having a single shot at BS4. 5 Pathfinders will put out 5 shots with a statistical hit of 3-4 hits which, for their unit size, is not bad. However, now they have the epic fail wound rate of 50%. Vs monstrous creatures or high tough MCs this isn’t bad, but vs EVERYTHING ELSE it is terrible. Hitting marines it is the equivilent of hitting with a bolter and vs Guard the equivalent of hitting with a lasgun. the AP or Rending is negated 90% of the time because cover is so easy to maintain.
Vs vehicles, if your rolls are on fire you have a small small chance of doing something to light vehicles. Also in return they can’t take a vehicle themselves, so you are losing the opportunity to take a Wave Serpent.
The unit will fall over in a heartbeat to any CC, flamer, or cover denying attack. Since they are on foot, they simply can not move away fast enough to get away for modern CC threats.
Now, a comparative cost to 5 Pathfinders? Guardian jetbike 4 man weighing in at 129 points. This unit consists 3 Guardian Jetbikes with an Underslug S Cannon and a Warlock with a Singing Spear and Embolden. The unit has a 3+ armor save, 3+ cover if turboboosting, 4++ save on the warlock, T4, Embolden to reroll any failed Leadership, moves 12-24″ with a 6″ move in the assault phase(if not turbo boost), 1 Str 9 shot, and 3 Str 6 shots. They are fast enough to get where they need to be, can pop light to medium vehicles with ease, and can absorb massive amount of damage since they won’t run away as long as the lock is there.
For Dire Avengers the minimum size squad is there as a 60pt upgrade to make your wave Serpent scoring. Wave Serpents are the hardest to damage vehicles in the game thanks to their Energy Field. Add to that Twin Linked Heavy weaponry and you have an extremely fast, hard to kill tank, that can actually kill stuff.
For Bladestorm Dire Avengers their whole purpose in life is to make marine units vanish. They will dire up to the 18″ range, hop out and unload 27 BS4 shots and 5 BS5 shots and if kitted right with have guide on themselves and doom on the target, so all those shots go twin linked. This will net you 28 statistical hits and then 21 statistical wounds. With a 3+ armor save that is 7 marines falling over that the other player has no control over who they will be due to volume of wounds. Also keep in mind that those are scriptly averaging numbers and I personally do not like DA bladestorm to to their cost efficiency.
Your experience may differ from ours. The energy field on a Wave Serpent might be effective against weapons of S:9+, but the danger comes from multiple shots of S:6-8… like squads full of missile launchers… Darrell’s favourite.
Jetbikes etc. are fine. However, Pathfinders have an advantage in that they are fast (as they will always use Fleet because they can’t move & fire) and once entrenched they are a painful unit to deal with.
Plus… I would never field 5 Pathfinders… its always units of 10.
just from experience… I’d say Jetbikes are considerably faster than Rangers xD
Longfangs and Psyfleman dreads are indeed the bane of Eldar existence, but then again they are the bane of every vehicle’s existance outside of Landraiders and monoliths. Serpents at least keep Melta at bay which allows you to cover that close range better and making them the most resilient vehicle in the current meta.
How would you possibly consider the ability to move and run as fast? Every model in the game can do that. It doesn’t make terminators considered to be fast, why would it make rangers? Not being able to move and fire is a hinderance to your flexability as any infantry use has the choise of running instead of firing. “Fleet” on a pathfinder just means they can assault after running which I’d highly not recommend. “Fast” is a jetbike that can move 24″ per turn with a 3+ cover save.
10 Pathfinders is also a mind blistering 240 points. The unit will immediately die if ANYTHING assaults it. Any enemy that deepstrikes, has jump packs, DE, etc will catch them in a heart beat. At
240pts you are looking at:
– almost 2 packs of jetbikes
or
– a min DA serpent with another 5 man to go in a falcon
or
– a foot scatter laser guardian squad with embolden lock and Serpent
or
– a Tri-Flamer Storm Guardian Squad and Serpent.
I can testify to the light vehicle killer, a rending shot through the center of a speeder rips it to pieces, the problem i have with pathfinders though is that when a flamer is brough to bear aginast them they lose the only protecton the have, this is where DA have an edge
I wouldn’t exactly call having to roll a 6 on pen and a 5+ on rend a “light vehicle killer”. More like a “eh I have nothing else to shoot at” chance.
Pretty much, buch dire avengers don’t have a better chance against them.
However they are 60 points cheaper which you can you to invest into real Anti-Armor
I have to agree with bluedagger. This blog was awful for lots of inaccuracies and definately not good for new eldar players (veteran eldar players know better).
Rangers are ok (I take five just to annoy people). However, DA are the bread and butter troops for any competitive list. The bladestorm with doom and guide will make mincemeat of any space marine (2+ armour or not). Their short range of 18″ is compensated by having fast skimmers (12″ + 18″ = 30″ range!).
I think the mistake here is that you cant compare them to marines or play them like marines. Eldar only work in unison and pull apart the enemy piece by piece. If i want to stop a Land raider from moving up the field i will stop it with bright lances or the new Warp Hunter (D-Cannon).
To summarise i think it would be good to next time have a person who plays that particular army proof check before posting. But what am i to say as i could be reading things wrong! Looking forward to seeing other comments and videos.
DA are maybe better at taking objectives from the enemy, since when moving the Rangers only have a 12″ range and one shot each, but they can always snipe at the unit holding then have someone else move onto it and to hold them rangers have a clear advantage- their are far fewer weapons ignore a 3+ cover save than a 4+armour save(though in the same situation the avengers would get a 4+ cover save anyway), and at 18 inches pretty much only tyranids and other eldar will have to step into your range to shoot you, marines will hurt you a fair bit, terminators or grey knights a lot, but the same points in imperial guard- roughly two squads- given a “first rank fire…” order will quite likely kill a ten strong avenger unit in one go.
Pathfinders arent that great in tourneys, i had better results using Eldar jetbikes and they are cheaper and have more mobility.
As for the of ranges/pathfinders being good against footsloggers and mentioning the list being tailored for tourneys i realy begin to raise an eyebrow (like the Rock). Who in there right mind takes a footslogging army to a tourney? We are in Mech edition after all.
Dire Avengers in cc just spells doom, the unit is ment to kill off small units with Bladestorm, not for an overextended slugfest, a babysitter is always required for them (farseer with doom/guide).
I do have to agree that Eldrad might not be the best option, he is good but you only get out his full potential if you take a Warlock unit with him (with Enhance/ Embolden in it)
i think that eldar rangers are pretty good in matches, they need to be chosen for the right thing though. As soon as they get in cover and start poping shots off players tend to get a bit off edge and start redirecting a lot of their armies firepower into killing them leaving your army to try and level out the losses, in my opinion they would be best used in high point matches with max unit or apocalypse games or random senario matches. also very good if you do full table settup where you and your opponent take turns placeing the scenery till its all down, place a terrian peice as close to your deployment zone as possible and you instantly have something scary for ur enemy to deal with. but i do agree they need to be picked wisely and deffo not for lower point games as they cost too much.
i do however agree that in tournies its gonna be a bad idea to field them
Rangers/Pathfinders are hardly scary, a good players just moves up dealing with youre big guns and than on the go just wipes them out in an assault phase.
I have experience of Rangers/Pathfinders as well as the Night Spinner and think that the points made on them miss the true strengths and weaknesses of these units.
Rangers/Pathfinders are extremely good at what they do, but have problems with assault orientated drop pod lists. They also suffer from weapons that ignore cover such as flamers as they then have to rely on thier standard save.
NIght Spinners excel at being a pain in the a$$e by disrupting troops, taming hordes, killing light vehicles and on occasion immobalising the odd heavy vehicle.
Like all things Eldar, you have to place it in a role best suited and play to its strengths whilst trying to play down its weaknesses.
I tend to use two to support my army, keeping them moving to minimise assaults from my friends Rapid Strike Space Wolves Army.
Just gotta say from a ghosting perspective this discussion has been great. Hats off to both @bluedagger and @beerogre for the lively discussion. Seems like each perspective is valid, and speaks volumes about how personal play style influences army composition.
I’ve not used Rangers in a long time, they are not that hard to get rid of with weapons that ignore their cover save. Flamers, heavy flamer from a drop podding termy, whirlwind, some psychic powers (Guard power that causes you to break and leave cover). You need them to have area terrain- just a wall isn’t enough as an Ord blast’s direction comes from the markers centres to a bit of scatter can loose them that advantage. Even when they are survivable they can’t put out enough damage to stop being hit with an assault.
I prefer the Dire Avengers – if a farseer is near guide makes bladestorm pretty awesome. They pair up well with war walkers with all scatter lasers.
Agree with all the comments in support of the Night Spinners, great fun to hit Nob Bikers with. Bezerkers if you can get them out of there transport in time.
I don’t think points comparison with any of the new books is ever going to make an early 4th Ed book look good but they were great during 4th ed, 5th hurt them especially with points values but roll on 6th. I’ve got masses of eldar sat in storage waiting for the new book 🙂
I agree with the above criticisms of rangers, they can be good but but spamming them is questionably effective such as spamming something like all AV14 would be: some armies wouldn’t be ready for it, but some would, it doesn’t mean its inherently better. You’ll tend to completely dominate some games, but some armies will be able to deal with it and thrash you.
The problem with a lot of your criticisms of eldar is I don’t think enough of the synchronization of the eldar was considered: for example, bladestorm might seem tame at first but cast doom and guide on it first and it becomes pretty fearsome.
hey guys, this is a 1,250 points of necons can you help, thanks
1 overlord 90, phareon 20, ressurection orb 30, warsythe 10
1 overlord 90, phareon 20, ressurection orb 30, warsythe 10
10 immortals 170, gauss blasters –
10 immortals 170, gauss blasters –
10 warriors 130, (dedicated transport) ghost ark 115
3x annhialation barge 270
5 deathmarks 95
Gentlemen,
I am a steady fan of your comments and your tips ever since 2009 but I also have played Eldar ever since 1994 so I have to be honest with you. The Eldar codex has been out of date since the day it was published. They stated: ” We wanted to make a well balanced codex” And they succeeded. But it was and still is the only “well balanced” codex out there.
All other codices are made in the traditional way, new is best.
Besides that:
I do not agree to the other comments, that Pathfinders are the worst Troop choice we have.
Frankly, the composition of your Eldar army primarily depends on how you play.
The same army I constantly win with may give you only lost games.
So there is currently no real tip on army building but to go with what you like and need.
However I agree on one thing: Eldrad and almost all other HQ choices are WAY to expensive. But honestly, that can be said about every single unit in the Eldar codex.
🙂
Aren’t the Dark Eldar and Necron books balanced? (in a “6th edition is coming” sense) ?
Nothing jumped out as over powered in those books they all have strengths and weaknesses I thought? As for Grey Knights, me no know, but I did hear people who claim it’s overpowered are “noobs” or whatever, ’cause if you know what you’re doing you can handle them.
I saw a game on that miniwargming site where eldar pathfinders took out two Space Marine tanks with their… sniper rifles.
I made me sad.
I’d say that Dark Eldar are actually quite tough to play. I think a balanced codex is one where there is no glaring weakness making the codex unlayable, or a glaring OPness making it impossible to play against.