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The Secret Deal – When two giants (don’t) go to war?
July 22, 2010 by warzan
Kotaku has an article up that most of you guys will at the very least find interesting.
http://kotaku.com/5591285/before-starcraft-there-was-warhammer-40k
In the article they show some comparisons between the main protagonists in Starcraft with those in Warhammer 40K and the obvious similarities between them.
But is this really just a case of one company owing a ‘visual debt’ to another, or is something a little more complex at play?
Facts about the relationship between Blizzard Entertainment and GamesWorkshop are not exactly easy to get (at least anything official that is), but what Kotaku didn’t explore (deeply enough) is the fact that these two giants (of their own industries) have had a very ‘interesting’ history.
The basics as far as we can tell (and we could be wrong as we have never been able to get the ‘official’ story on this) is that in the early days of GW’s licensing attempts they may have been a little more naive than they are now. Blizzard we’re working on a game using GW Intellectual Property (i.e. the visuals and fluff that we all love so much), somewhere during that process there was a falling out and Blizzard went off and made ‘some’ changes and rolled out Warcraft (we believe this was the title they were working on).
The Secret Deal
This is where things take a turn and the hearsay ramps up a little, according to some rather than just take Blizzard to the cleaners (BoW Legalese for suing them) GW for whatever reasons opted for a ‘non aggression pact’ basically saying if you leave us alone we will leave you alone. Since then Warcraft has become the behemoth we see today, and come on, surely everyone can spot the resemblances ;o) And if you have a look at the Kotaku article you will see them drawing comparisons between StarCraft and Warhammer 40K.
So where does this leave us?
The above may or may not be true, most likely we will never know the whole story of what actually happened between these two companies, and all the key players have probably moved on long ago (Blizzard has changed name and been bought and sold about half a dozen times in its history), but one wonders:
a) Could this experience explain a little why GW protects it’s IP so vigorously now (and we believe rightly so, considering that a video game like Gears of War will turn over more in its opening weekend that GW would in a year, you can see why a rich and powerful Intellectual property like that of 40K is worth protecting – yup we believe the story is worth more than the little plastic men we love so dearly.)
b) Do the guys in Blizzard still enjoy a game of Warhammer or 40K during their lunch breaks ;o)
So what do you guys think? There is obviously some reason why these two companies have not went to war, (considering the rest of us are afraid to take a dump that looks like a space marine in case a cease and desist letter comes up the toilet!), does it mean that anyone with deep enough pockets can go and setup their own game with bulky armour-clad Galactic Marines and nasty looking Insectisaurs?
All we know is there is no such thing as coincidence!
BTW: Watch the trailer because Starcraft II is looking awesome!
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This have been on my mind since Starcraft (1) came out and hit me over the head with the similarities! Really dope games!
Starcraft was originally ment to be a 40k game, GW did give the rights to blizzard after the success of warcraft to make a 40k and for some reason GW changed there minds. This was in an interview way back with blizzard (who some of them have said they love the odd game of 40k). So what they had made sofar for this 40k game they then turned starcraft. Yes there some similaritys of the 2, but they are vastly different which is why no action has ever been taken. Marines in Starcraft for example are mainly re-socialized criminals and look nothing like space marines, arent genetic enhanced or even called space marines. The Protoss are nothing like the eldar except for advanced tech. Zerg yes are like Tyranids but you could say Tyranids are based on bugs from Starship troopers novel. I also see that Andy Chambers of GW fame now works for blizzard entertainment as the fluff director or something for Starcraft 2. I have never understood this comparison thing between the 2, i love both products. You could have a field day with Fantasy and Lord of the rings!
Which brings us nicely to the whole point of ‘Tolkien based Fantasy’ so much of the fantasy imagery and literature goes back to LOTR who can any of it be truly ‘Original’. Although we did hear that GW were the first to make Orcs green 😉
On that matter: http://tinyurl.com/2vawoef 😉
Indeed. Must of Tolkien’s work is based on Scandinavian and Germanic folk-lore, so much so that even some character names and dialogue in Lord of the Rings is ripped straight out of Beowulf. No, you can’t be truly original…
It’s been common knowledge that blizzard created a WHFB “ripoff” after losing GW’s support. And I can surely understand that step. Knowing that they had created a somewhat great game, instead of just canning countless workhours (and therefore money), they simply changed it just enough so GW won’t be able to say a thing and released it.
Imho they didn’t even think about talking to GW about creating StarCraft, probably knowing that they would run into the same problems again and just built it up from scratch with 40k in mind.
Can’t blame them, why re-invent the wheel? I like all four franchises and tbh I’m tired of these “oh look, a bloody 40k ripoff” debates
Wow… I mean.. I hadn’t even considered the possibility, but I feel like an idiot with it staring me straight in the face! haha
Dang, I’ve been playing warcraft/starcraft since their inception, and fantasy for over 10 years. Talk about feeling like an idiot!
Great article, cant wait for the game to come out!
Thanks BoW!
tbh i realy wana play starcraft 🙂 i think starcraft took some good ideas from wh4k but changed them. still starcract 2 looks awsome!
“I like all four franchises and tbh I’m tired of these “oh look, a bloody 40k ripoff” debates”
Snap, and tbh i can’t even see how people compare the universe’s background, as i have seen in other forums. The lore is so different between the two. I will say that the trailer is pure awesome, looks like a proper movie! and cannot wait for the game.
Actually I don’t even know wether or not to buy SC2. As much as I loved the first one, Acti-Blizz really is going down the cashcow drain.
50 bucks for a game thats basicially 1/3 of the original (only 1 terran campaign, no zerg/protoss), offers no LAN mode (in which, lets be honest, SC1 made the most fun to play), no chat lobbies, but this stupid b-net 2.0 with facebook integration
might i go out on a limb and state the article was discussing the visual similarities, naturally there is going to be some background and fluff differences between the two.
lest we not be argumentative, just sayin!
i’m looking forward to get this game. I got the collectors editions. That version has the first starcraft on a usb stick in the box :D. I have the orginal starcraft on CD, but i hope this version will be updated for windows 7 ;).
I will admit that the zerg in star2 do look similar in ways to modern Tyranids but to me IMHO they both look similar to geigers Xenomorphs 😉 , but i don’t agree that the protoss look like the eldar, or the terrans just becuase they have shoulder pads as part of the armor, look like spacemarines. Do any of the BOW team play Starcraft/Diablo/Warcraft at all? As i siad before i do find it interesting that one of the head 40k fluff guys Andy chambers(who has said he loves starcraft) now works for BE, well the starcraft department. I do wonder if he will be providing fluff for future Warcraft games?
When push comes to shove the only people likely to win in a court case like this would be the lawyers which is probably why a case between two parties who could afford to take it to court doesn’t happen while massively agressive and antagonistic C&D letters fly around like confetti any time someone uses a picture that could remotely be GW related
I also am getting the Collectors edition, after being part of the Beta for SC2 the game is awesome! so is 40k 🙂
There is no such thing as innocence…
I always thought there was alot of similaries to both franchises, specially them orks.
tbh i think its nice they haven’t tried suing each other over these things because then we may not of had starcraft or warcraft or maybe any of the excellent plastic models that gw are bring out today,i think it nice to have more fanasty products out there, i would hate just having one company to rule all so to speak (aka microsoft).
I believe Bilzzard just managed to evolve its stereotypes better than GW, on both SC and WC.
That been said I wait to see what mr. Chambers did to SC2, from his GW years I can’t say much or really any good words about his competence in both game balance and mythos development, now I wait to see his input on SC2, who knows he might be good and just got hit by GW corporate mindset…
I wouldn’t say ripping off GW is the reason for their success, Blizzard are a brilliant gaming company (or were) though it’s pretty obvious they ripped off Warhammer and Warhammer 40k. It’s the reason why I love GW products so much simply because the fluff behind them is amazing and the look of it all.
No other fantasy product comes close to being as bad-ass as Warhammer or Warhammer 40k and the fluff is superior to any other gaming fluff out there, hands down.
When I say Blizzard were the best games company in the world is before Activision took over. (check my website for the article I wrote on them regarding Starcraft 2 http://cynik.co.uk). They’re basically charging you 3x the normal price for a normal game and there will be map packs and other pay-to-play features coming later. Activision and Rob Kotick are gonna bleed anybody who continues to be involved with Blizzard dry.
stop surfing the web, bow, and go back to work, i want more episodes of the warhammer table tutorial! 😉
Hear hear – back to work you monkeys, time to make Darren gaffer!
Finaly i topic i do know allot about. The similarities warcraft and warhammer fantasy are a bit blur. There where orcs and elves and dwarfs in other media so i would not call this identety theft. But the story is as far as i know totaly diffrent. Orcs from WH are just blood thristy cause they are, while the WC orcs are just demon driven.
On the fact of starcraft, as far as ik can tell starcraf 2 equals dawn of war 3 (ooh i hope they hurry up). SC was stolen from the 40k univers, races and all. I love the bliz games but lots of props to GW for creating such a thing.
GW didnt create the idea of a Space Marine, swarm alien hive minds or aliens older than the stars and with almost infinite knowledge. They’re the basic architypes of sci fi just like man, elf and orc are in fantasy.
The races do look similar for reasons mentioned previously but thats where it stops. In fact its really a small amount of units that look similar.
And Starcraft 2, is Starcraft 2, not basically Dawn of War 3. It bears no resemblance to either Dawn of War 1 or 2.
How is SC an WC ripp of WF and W40k? i just don’t see it, the closet thing to the W40k is the zerg, then agian the tyranids arent original either, if anything the Zerg resemble more the Borg or Cybermen for assimalting other species but organic. The universe’s are vastly different from one another. For example there are no tau, chaos/demons/necrons/ Space Marines types, in SC. The marines in SC are just normal men in body armor, mainly criminals, there not elite soilders there the bog standard infantry. The Backgrounds of the speices are differen’t fully fleshed out backgrounds. The one thing that i don’t like about 40k is that the fluff keeps changing or gets removed completely, were as the fluff for SC is crisp and freshed out and makes sense and is mainly focused on the characters of Raynor and Kerrigan. As for the price is only expensive if you go for the collectors edition, regular game is the standard £30-35 and it has been stated that the 2 expansions will be full games but only at the price of an normal expansion set, ie £20, i don’t think that is overpriced.
A friend of mine (yes I know using that phrase on the web) use to work for GW’s legal Dept. Short of the story is GW vet Blizzard’s Star/Warcraft IP’s to keep GW and Blizzard IP’s seperate.
As a big fan of both universes, it’s obvious the Starcraft universe was heavily based/inspired on the WH40K universe. But both universes are vastly different due to the fluff that’s been created over the years.
However, you can definately still see the resemblance between the Terrans and the SM / IG, the Zerg and Tyranids and the Protoss with the Eldar.
I’ve never played Starcraft, but I have heard at the end of the credits, they have a note that says thanks for not sueing us, GW.
zomg i have to play it now 😛
Seriously is that a game or movie trailer!? I half expect the Pixar or Dreamworks logo to come up at the end.
I have to agree. What’s the point of a game trailer if it doesn’t actually show the game working?
Blizz are known for making trailers like that. There’s enough gameplay trailers out there. Their own trailers are more story trailers (see all the WoW trailers).
We cant discuss the ‘similarities of GW and blizzard without talking about where GW plagiarized their material from. Surely no one one here actually things that anything GW has published contains even a minority of original material?
I’m sure George Lucas would have something to say about space mariens, HR Geiger about tyranids and the descendants of Tolkien in regards to the various races he created that have since been palgerised by various companies, but more belligerently by GW. For example, Elves and Orcs both appear in both GW universes as and either in fluff or in the game we see other races such as dwarves, elves and ents appear. Then of couse there is the stuff taken straight from mythology that has no copyright.
The 40k universe and back story as well as the WFB ones borrow almost all of the material in some from classic literature of various periods.
Im sure once you take away what has been borrowed or coped from another company or from mythology, there is not much left at all by both GW and blizzard. In fact if GW and blizzard went head to head in court im sure GW would have many authors/artists come out of the woodworks and take them apart in a court room. Why are the giants sleeping? Because it’s the safest way to avoid being eaten by a dragon.
Exactly, nice point. I have never understood why people always compare blizz and GW, there are other games that are far closer to the WFB setting, the Elder Scrolls series esp Morrowind and Oblivion. Doom is similiar to 40k, space marines fighting Demons etc the list is endless, So if GW where to go ahead with legal action, as you have said it would be like waking a sleeping giant, i say just let it be they are both fantastic IPs and i love both to bits and just 4 days to go before release!
what a dick trailer, makes the game look like an amazing action adventure. or a mean movie. they should have shown boring base building and a new player being slaughtered over and over in online
The similarities are quite blatant. It’s almost sad how Orcs and Orks are nearly identical, it really speaks to Blizzard’s lack of real creativity. I mean, even the Tau were brought over to WoW in their beefier cousins, the Draenei.
That said, if GW isn’t going to sue, then so be it. Blizz has a free ticket to wealth and mindshare^^
Tau came out in 2001. Draenei came with Warcraft 2 in 1995.
Well played, sir, well played…
I’m just saying, these ‘two’ companies should just hook up and cut the nonsense. We all know where everything came from, just get married and make some starcraft 2 tabletop babies!
the trailer is a sick son of a @#$!% trailer.
Personally the way i feel about this matter is that (im smoking hot) i do see similarities (still smokin hot), but who cares about similarities (even hotter than a second ago), i enjoy both (Starcraft a bit more just cause its bad ass…… oh……..and im incredibly smoking hot right now), let them both be.
JUST HAVE A KICK ASS TIME AND BE SMOKING HOT LIKE ME!!!
WHERE THE HELL DID MY COMMENT GO!!!
Most of GWs so called IP is ripped off to some extent, they have done well at moulding it in their image, but they are not original and certainly have taken a lot of ‘inspiration’ from well establised sci fi and fantasy sources.
GW won’t sue cos they dont have a leg to stand on.
Both games workshop and many other major licences ‘steal’ ideas.
It become a problem when you start stealing intellectual properties.
It would bore you the number pf science fiction writes whom have rose and fell in the years that GW has been operating.
Why do I bring that up.
Is the idea od a ‘Space Marine’ truely orginal?
Take a look at a deep sea diver suit from 1715.
Do they look very similar to something?
Perhaps an astronaut suit…
Wait what if we combine the two and give it a warrior motif.
Please.
Dark Angels. Homosexual Illuminati.
Blood Angel. Vampires with Christlike overtones.
Ultramarines. The Roman Legion.
Tyranid. the red scare/starship troopers (there both the red scare)
Eldar. Elves.
All of this is true.
But this is the surface.
But taking the first of the mentioned the Dark Angels.
Cypher is on the classic quest.
They have elements of the Rags to riches story being lifted from the death world they came from, they are ‘over coming the monster’ of there past and the stories all very tragic.
But it from this amalgam, we get a truely unique story within this universe.
The dicotomy of betrayal and forgiveness and what they mean.
The struggle to free one self from there past and what living there can do.
Hope that Cypher may succeed as well as fear.
Ancient pacts clashing with what is needed today.
All this in a dystopian future where there is only war.
Sure there is been mash ups like that before but you see people doing a story like that it would be on like donkey kong.
But that brings me to my second point @dalekseth said they may there was a meeting this was based off it or some such.
Magic the Gathering, is another such gaint who talked to someone that makes even blizzard get cold feet when meeting with lawyers.
Disney.
However it never happened?
Why?
Disney said great you have a product give us all the rights and we will market it for you for free, just all you will be doing is the cards and nothing else.
Unsurprisingly they walked away.
Whats my point market value and shares interst are things that will make the most sane man rage like the hulk.
This doesn’t mean deals weren’t made.
And finally this brings me to crux of my point.
One potent enough to end on.
1947–1991
No declared the US and USSR were at war.
Did they.
Very interesting. From what I gather, a legal battle would ultimately hurt both parties (which would suck). I’ll admit I’d not heard of SC until recently, but I have been a fan of WH40k for a few years now. That being said, I initially leaned towards the GW side rather than the Blizz side on this kind of subject (copying ideas, pictures, etc.). However, I did some research (like any interested, concerned enthusiast insulted by the denotation “fanboy”) and what I have found scouring the internet is fascinating. First I will clarify my position: I have been “raised” on 40k, meaning my sci-fi interests were spawned by Space Marines, Chaos, Orks, and (my favorite) Tyranids. And the others… blah, blah, Necrons, Eldar, blah. So you might understand my umbilical connection to GW.
I have to tread lightly here because there are bound to be “Me’s” on the other side of the fence (the Blizzard side). I used to be in the camp of “shoot first, ask questions once they are all dead and you can’t get them to say anything” until I realized it didn’t matter, SC and 40k would STILL exist. But, Alas! Poking around in the SC universe shed some light on my (and a lot of other angry peoples’) problem. They ARE different, very different (which disappointed me, actually, because I wanted it to be cut-and-dry, Bam! book ’em Dan-o, there’s the perp ma’am, kinda thing). SC is… cool, kinda (but please don’t tell the Inquisition!). Ok, ok, I’m not going to sell myself to Blizz (again, thanks WoW). I don’t know why it hurts to say it but, they do make some cool stuff (with or without the help of ex-GW). Don’t get me wrong: still a HUGE 40k fan[atic] and I’m not going to get farther into SC than I need to (enough to impress the Blizz-Chicks). To me, lore / fluff / backstory is key, pick the one you like (people who say 40k fluff is shallow, lame, not deep enough… l2Read or gtfo, because one thing GW CAN do is write and write and write and hire people to write! There is a big-boy vocabulary though, might need to get your nanny to read it to you.)
If you skipped all my boring words, here’s my condensed position (unabridged version): 99% GW, 1% Blizz (dammit WoW). They are similar, they are both going to stick around, 40k came out first (just sayin’), I like 40k (and am not going to crucify the SC fans).
Think of these franchises like bands (heavy metal, of course), people can lose their cool over how “this was taken from that!” or “Oh yea, well all of this was from this even OLDER source!” To this I say, “Come, come, children and listen to the pounding power chords! Put aside your band drama and breathe deep the avalanching drum beats, let the wailing soul resonate in your veins and give you strength!” Or something to that effect (bands = Blizz, GW; metal = sci-fi awesomeness; old bands are building blocks, Heavy Metal thanks you, Beat Movement bands). My biggest, err… disappointment I guess, would be that GW did not rain hell on Blizz when it was still an infant. But the past is the past (and long before I got into 40k), and the ugly little baby turned out to be… ugh, kinda, sorta, maybe just a little, cool. But just barely, and definitely not an adult yet, but then again, with nobody threatening to rain hell on it anymore, it now has the possibility of getting big. I’m bitter (but only enough to pillage a SMALL village, not enough to lay waste to the countryside for my cause), where was I… I’m bitter to think that GW could have possibly been the big gun on the block, whereas now it seems to be a sliver of what it COULD have been (without SC), but what’s done is done. (Kids who think 40k is a SC knockoff?? I weep for their ignorance.)
Ahh, Blizz-Chicks…
Now you know why GW protect thier IP so vigorously,not so long ago a chinese company released a substandard copy of Bloodbowl ,GW let slip thier IP lawyers and i belive that company no longer trades.
Just got the CE of the game, and i have to say it is awesome, and the soundtrack is one of the best and most beautifull orchestral soundtracks for a game i have heard.
As for that bloodbowl that was a straight forward copy so yeah GW would get involved, but as other people have pointed out the 40k/fantasy universe’s aren’t pure original, GW didn’t come up with the term “space marine”, they themselves have borrowed stuff, tau obvious reference to manga, the backstory of the emperor, horus and the primarchs have elements from the bible in it ie horus based on Lucifer etc, Space wolves are just vikings, necrons = Terminator even has a rule called “i’ll be back”. So sorry but GW are just as guilty for basing there stuff on other things as well, but i do love both universe’s to bits i cannot wait for the Space marine game and hopefully the next installment of the Dawn of War series.
this hole article is pretty arogant. no one stole anything from anyone. i cant belive beast of war actually put this up, all it is are conspiracys and rumors.
@pluguglie ‘come on pull the panties out of your crack. This is good to converse about both conspiracy and the rumor mill has always been a great marketing tool 🙂
verry clear this trailer, space mariens vs nids I guess…?
One thing I don’t get is when people say “Yea but GW took other’s ideas too…” Didn’t GW get started before Blizz? Also, I don’t think it’s possible to develop anything without input / ideas / concepts that haven’t been used… ever. The concept of a “Space Marine” WAS developed before GW, but I don’t understand how it’s “copying” or stealing ideas when it’s so different from the original. Human Space warriors are everywhere now, no need to select GW (or even Blizz) out of the rest (Halo, Gears of War, etc.). If anything, there are copies of copies of copies… the list goes on. I think the music analogy is accurate. Heavy Metal for instance, how many sub-genres of Metal are there? Yet they are all different (even though Melodic Metal might have had roots in Power Ballads). So how can people single out a “parent genre” without following through and saying that the sub-genres are also guilty of not being “original.” I think the logical conclusion of the arguments against GW “originality” fall through because how many of THEIR inspirations were taken from something else, which came from something even further back… Someone could get an idea from the lowest level of nature, but then would that be “original?” If GW is just a conglomerate of borrowed ideas, then so is everything based off of their material (ie. Blizz). The assumption here is that SC is inspired by 40k, which seems obvious given that ex-GW are involved in development (they are VERY different, to be clear. Notice I mentioned inspiration, not a knock-off).
Logically it makes sense, then again, logic can be flawed (but it usually isn’t). I’m not against Blizz or SC, but singling out GW as a bunch of un-original, borrowed concepts / ideas / characters in order to defend the “identity” of SC is just illogical. Sounds like the argument a rebellious child would make when looking for individuality from their parents. Come on people, respect your elders / roots / progenitors!
If I’m wrong, let me know (but if you don’t agree, don’t bother).
I wasn’t singling out GW, i was saying that like they also do it like most other companys, i realise the word “borrowed” was probably no the right word and should of used “based/inspired.
I do love a good conspiracy theory!! and this sounds actually more believable than most,
I would hold any and all companies suspect when they go the classic to big to fail.Blizzard is bashing there fan base and seeking legal action. Just like GW http://www.d3scene.com/forum/wow-private-servers/21584-help-stop-blizzard-closing-private-servers.html I take issue with any company that attacks its own fan base. Especially those fans that start up sites and forums like this one. This only helps the hobby and increases interest in the hobby itself…
atleast with table top wargaming your not subject to losing your time and money investment…Word to fellow war gamers WOW is shutting down in a year or 2. I tried to find the articles but Blizzard fired the employee that leaked it and had articles pulled. Just a heads up can’t see paying for something that is slated for shut down.
Sure there is similarities between those two but does it really matter. Both are different kind of games. One is scifi wargame and other is scifi RTS game. Lets face it, if GW is not orginal then why Blizzard should be.