New Tau Empire Errata – A Storm in a Tau Cup?
April 6, 2013 by stuart
Just when you thought it was safe to play your army straight from the Codex on the day of launch... ta da!
This is going to cause a mixture of reactions in the community. Its only a small update, but released on launch day (and a troubled launch at that) and coming on the heels of the Dark Angels debacle, is this another 'nail in the coffin' or is it the makings of a 'storm in a tau cup'?
GW has the ability to polarise opinion like no other manufacturer in the hobby. For some (myself included) I'd far rather that mistakes in the Codex are identified quickly and brought to the attention of the community than go unaddressed for months or years. But should the company who state 'The products we make for our customers are the best in the wargaming world' be releasing something with a known flaw, however small?
Whether or not you think it indicates a lapse in quality control or not, it looks like the FAQ was a little rushed - it refers to Chaos Space Marines!
Let the conversation begin!
Supported by (Turn Off)
Supported by (Turn Off)
Supported by (Turn Off)






























Whether or not you think it indicates a lapse in quality control or not, it looks like the FAQ was a little rushed – it refers to Chaos Space Marines!
I think it indicates a lapse in quality control after that last bit 🙂
i wondered about that when i saw it too
Could be subtle way to push the customer base away from the Hard codex to paying the same price for a live online version to download.
I would gladly go digital if GW buy me the i-pad as they are failing to support other platforms
They could have made us pay £100 for a shackled droid tab with the rulebook that would have had an obscene profit margin then given us DRM laden codices that would only run on their tablet with some proprietary media. (swap some pins on a flash card and reader and glue it to a facade that fits in the gw tablet drive but not in others) And if they’d also released an ipad version along side it I’d have bought it cos in my mind I’d be saving £200 on the cost of an ipad. As it is they get none of my money for digital products, cos iPads are the one product with a more horrendous price for value than GW rules…
same here, you can’t even download from itunes for a pc…. seems like a lot of work to make the digital products if so much of the base can’t even buy it
I must admit this is a little disappointing…
yet not exactly surprising…
im glad its been sorted out before you saw it become massivly over powered and abused and then people cry when it gets changed
@huscarle i will probably buy a digital version for use in games but i love to collect the hard back copies of the books as well but that much just be me
I prefer both too
Couldn’t organise a bun fight in Kiplings springs to mind
Reminds me of Fantasy 8th ed, opened my brand new book and it’s got a print out informing me of a correction. I think they need some quality control before they announce the release date.
HAHA yeah! I remember that :p the little correction paper WAS printed on nice paper though :p … worst attempt to put a positive spin on something ever.
GW and quality control….. I don’t think its in the dictionary of GW
they kinda lost the page when they started with the fail cast !
Its an other nail in the coffin for me. Its proof GW is just about making money not about quality of there products. you don’t miss some thing like this if you play test this stuff! clearly we have seen GW does not test the products…
to make things worse the FAQ is a FUP as well!! haha this is not a real company its a circus full of clowns , every press release is a joke , the last few codexes are terrible and clearly written but not play tested….
GW have got a huge QC department. Its called the end user.
to bad they dont listen to us anymore
Its no where near as bad as the Dark Angels as it monor alterations not major changes. It still highlights the inability of GW to deliver a product of a quality I expect for the price point.
However, from my brief scan so far its no where near the worst written codex, everything that is in there seems to be fairly clear to date, although I can think of one minor question already. Which just highlights its just not checked by anyone who games/or is competant.
Why cant they produce a codex without mistakes, it isn’t like they are running to an outside schedule they print when they want so why not take an extra week or month to read it through..
Yeah, I mean, there’s no company in the world that would dare release a product with a minor mistake, right?
No such thing as a second edition print in literature, right?
Hey, cars have never been recalled because of issues in production, right?
They may not be perfect but this is a really, really petty gripe at best.
I agree with you.
Mistakes are made its just a part of ‘creating stuff’, I think it’s incredibly unrealistic to expect no mistakes.
I also remember a time when FAQs took months before they came out. (and we complained about that!)
However how you handle mistakes is what’s important, I remember a University pulping nearly 100k prospectuses for a single error…. They had spelt University with a lower case u.
That was a big deal for them as it was an important lapse in a cornerstone of thier ‘quality’, most certainly other mistakes would have been ‘let through’… I wonder what the ‘cornerstones’ of quality are for GW. What mistake is a mistake too far?
to be honest the FAQ was something that would of been used and abused if not set right fast… you would of seen 40 missile drones in every army and then there would been riots when it got taken away because it was massively over powered.
I’m glad it came around on day one, just a little surprised 🙂 id rather have an FAQ than 100k Codex’s pulped and waiting 2 months for a codex when the army is already released? that would be a mistake too far 😉
If the situation is game breaking, then I do agree with a timely FAQ,
However, as with dark Angels, if I’d just spent £60 on the ‘limited edition’ super special book, and I needed to stick a bit of paper printout in it, probably before I even received the book, I would be extremely annoyed.
Mistakes do happen, I’ve never played a game that didnt have adjustments down the line, even in the fabled history of 2nd edition 40k where rose tinted glasses say everything was perfect. However, if you are going to charge £60 for a rules supplement then as a company GW need to do more playtesting, day 1 faq on that is just shoddy. They can’t have it both ways.
Actually this is wrong. Very minor mistakes do happen and end up in the released book (though i don’t recall as many mistakes in GW’s older stuff) but a lot of these recent Codex mistakes are just shoddy workmanship and and laziness on the part of all involved. Some of these problems are even lack of fore-sign on behalf of the authors.
And the guy who did the FAQ, i’d bet you he had no hand in the proper penmanship of the codex and was just told to go over everything AFTER the item was printed. So he’s picking up obvious stuff that the author game-designer(s) didn’t pick up on.
It IS hard writing a ruleset and game rules. BUT GW is meant to be the best, they said so themselves. I agree totally.
I have noticed these mistakes in the last two 40k codex’s to come out have all come from Jeremy Vetock, someone in GW has to start reading his codex’s months before they are printed
Mistakes are made.
However it helps one to forgive a company if there is trust in them trying to sort things out before rather than after release.
If this was a one off then okay shrugs shoulders.
But it isn’t. It shows that GW do not or can’t learn from its mistakes.
Sending out a message that this sort of behaviour is acceptable will not help the company to improve.
There are minor mistakes and consistant trends show lack of QA, and as @warzan says it the addressing and correcting these issues. The Dark Angels codex, should of been re-printed and an exchange offered if they weren’t going to pull the release.
I think it’s just lack of proof readers, (graphic designers inability to spell/use a spell checker. I used fo be a printer so came accross this one a lot) and the fact they are printing in china now where the language barrier may be preventing the printer from noticing.
You used to get the odd typo in GW books but they didn’t get rules wrong. They would have pulped the books at one point, but they realise now that we’re not really that fussed.
So basically GW is saying we don’t care what you think because we know you will buy anyway.
pretty much
the more I see, the more I disagree with the last part of this conclusion.
i know i’ll get negatives for this but they are getting better with FAQ’s and codex’s. look at the size of the 6th ed books FAQ’s compared to the 5th ed ones.
6th ed: CSM – 2 pages. DA – 2 pages. Tau – 1 page. Daemons – None.
5th ed: SM – 4 pages. GK – 6 pages. Necrons – 6 pages. IG – 4 pages. SW – 7 pages.
i know they shouldn’t need them in the first place but they ARE improving.
I agree (so you got a thumb up from me).
😉
Only two little points needed to be clarified this time. If you remove the introduction and explanation paragraph, the FAQs would only be about 8 lines long…
They ARE getting better.
to be honest i was expecting negatives because what i said was in favour of GW, lately more than ever things like that simply seem to rack up loads of negatives.
I can give you some if you want! 😛
A lot of the recent negatives were because of how and what what said, not because people disagreed.
Why would anyone one give you a thumbs down for presenting facts simply, clearly and politely? 😉
I may not agree with you that this is acceptable but only a churlish bore would bother to click the thumbs down.
Thats a pretty good improvement, I’d kind of like to see all the FAQ’s for all 6 editions compared and see if it has been a steady trend
I agree. They’re improving. So are their prices.
Proffreaders and testers are probably better paid or have better work conditions 🙂
While that is true and you are right, I do think they are getting better in some cases. (I have heard that the Daemons codex could use a small FAQ tho.) Especially how quick they are getting armies updated to the new system. But you have to look at the fact that it is a new system and the newer codexes are made for the current system. The longer FAQs were made for codexes designed during and for previous rules systems. They are logically going to need more correcting to bring them up to date with the newer rules. I couldn’t say for sure but I don’t think those codexes started out 4+ page FAQs(ok maybe Wards did, :-D) and I doubt after 7th edition is released the current 6th ed. codexes will still only by 1 to 2 pages.
not as much as you’d think, most of it are the previous questions and their answers updated. they’ve just thrown a few extra bits in like “Person X can only use ability Y on units from this codex” and “Person A is psyker level B”.
My stealth suits list is severally screwed over by this update, marker drones are useless cause they arent networked anymore. etherals are better this ed and aunshi is back as nuts as ever
Has anyone tried returning a codex after day one faqs?
Did only GW stores get the New Tau releases?
No some independents got stock, but only the smallest of allocations and then only the codex,
Interestingly my local GW didn’t have all the stock for the release – no 3 box battlesuits to which the manager couldn’t say why or when he would get those in, he did however have the overpriced singles in stock
It varied, one I know in Plymouth, got one of everything and dupilcates of some. Codex seeed to be uneffected.
i preordered from thewarstore.com and they were able to ship right on time, so atleast some independents did get the codex atleast
Wow… definitely another nail in the lid of the coffin for games workshop as far as I’m concerned. Such a wonderful IP and universe in literature they’ve created it, but such a sorry excuse for a game.
These changes are really not that bid of a deal. Especially if you downloaded the Tau Codex. I think GW is doing a lot better job than before, and I for one am happy they did this right away.
They should change it from Frequently Asked Questions to Frequently Unanswered Questions. That acronym suits what they are doing better.
I’d just like to clarify that I’m being critical of their books’ quality, NOT the timing of their FAQ documents. You guys should be happy you get an update so quickly.
It just seems to me that an extra week to playtest and have more sets of eyes go over the intended final draft before it went to print could have prevented this mess.
Exactly, speed is good its dated 1 st April which is odd, FAQ and Errata should be for clarifications following wider play. These should of been spotted in proof reading/testing.
Its a QA issue when you want £30 pound for a 105 page book it better have decent QA in place.
Also agree with FUQ as the have a habit of failing to address key issues or provide true clarification. @bloodhunter – yes they are getting smaller but that is for the recent codecies so you looking at correction of production errors as opposed to clarification, I am sure these will be expanded upon as they see play.
Although overall I am generally positive about 6th Ed codecies, even if the deamon one has me stratching my head as to what I would do with the army.
If everyone could just stop buying from these clowns for a bit and force them to reflect over their disgusting behaviour .. they need some hurt to even change slightly
Notice how they have released an F.A.Q for the tau to address a minor almost overlooked upgrade and the much needed daemon F.A.Q has yet to materialize, i mean at the moment we have a whole unit that’s unplayable (Flaming chariot)
Not something that bothers me at all and I’m glad they’ve dealt with an issue that they’ve noticed post-printing in a such a prompt manner. It’s not as easy you’d think, even for a company the size of GW, to catch everything.
That was fast for them to make errata for this brand new Codex. Still they could had took care of those before printing actual Codex but maybe thats just normal for GW.
There’ll have been quite a long lead time between finalising the manuscript for print and the release of the codex during which this issue will have been identified. I’m sure no-one would have wanted GW to pulp the print run and put the release back several months. It’s easy to be critical of GW but they do manage to maintain a very high standard of accuracy, especially given the amount they release and the size of their design studio.
Link to info regarding the “Dark Angels debacle” and “troubled” release of the tau codex please? 🙂 I can’t seem to find any info on either of these topics
“I’d far rather that mistakes in the Codex are identified quickly and brought to the attention of the community ”
Identifying mistakes before publication would be even better.
GW are so paranoid of leaks that they blindfold proof readers and printers.
Never mind a sheet of A4 in the 20 odd quids worth of the Army Annual is not so shabby
I long for the day when you can buy a rulebook and army list and play straight away, oh well I can only dream.
I think it is good that they have released the faq on launch day but at the same times they must have known these issues like the Dark angels ones when it went to print. You draw your own conclusions from that.
I’m off to play Saga….
I’m some what curious as to why this FAQ did not make the print deadline….was this codex not withheld for a little over a year? In theory weren’t both books being produced in parallel?
Whilst this is indeed something of a joke I must give kudos to the development team for putting out errata and faqs so quickly and consistently. Spelling mistakes and omissions are not forgivable from a company with as much experience as GW but rule clarifications have been quick in coming compared to previous editions.
It’s days like these where I begin to wonder if either 1) most 40K players don’t have experience playing anything else, 2) they can’t take an experience from other incidents in the manufacturing/creative/retail space and create a correlation to GW experiencing the same thing, or 3) and possibly the most disappointing: we really are just that petty, and the idealized level of perfection because “were paying for it” people expect from GW is grounded in bias or some other frustration.
Paizo had something like 10,000 downloads of their Pathfinder RPG beta, is on the 5th printing of it’s core rulebook and it still gets errata.
Fantasy Flight Game’s still cannot seem to release a 40K RPG book yet that doesn’t confuse they are, their and they’re. They are riddled with errors to the point where even people on their forums have volunteered to proofread.
Green Ronin released an updated edition of their Song of Ice and Fire RPG that actually pulled previous errata and put the broken stuff back in. Oooops!.
How many video game have been released that are completely unplayable day one, by tons of people, even after extensive testing?
Frankly, I’m just glad GW is getting FAQs out in general, day one or otherwise. We attribute so much malice to GW, that now we can’t even grant them a mistake or two.
Yeah mistakes do happen but are 99.9% picked up before going to print/manufacture. Recent spate is shockingly poor. Just smacks of getting stuff out Asap on the cheap – You pay peanuts you get monkeys looking after your QA. I agree releasing a FAQ is an appropriate reaction but it shouldn’t be needed – £60 for a book – you would expect better…..
Some of these mistakes are not easy mistakes to miss, or clarification difficult to predict. Just because X has a lot of FAQ, for example, doesn’t mean the original rules were bad, it could mean that the rules just happen to be intelligently complex – or that a lot of people just happen to be asking stupid questions.
GW are PREMIUM products. Get that in your head peeps! They are sold as premium, cost premium. With GW’s constant price hikes one should expect, at the very least, HIGH quality.
FAQ released on the day of the release etc is fine if the Questions answered and predicted questions that the author suspected would come up, despite it, in his/her opinion being clear from his work. That’s fine. But obvious stuff that should have been picked up in playtesting? Annoying spelling mistakes in a £billion book?
That being said, I’m happy that there is such a big push by GW to get balanced armies on the table. That they’re getting these books out so quickly after the new rulebooks is GOOD, shame they can’t just get that quality control right (Finecast eh?).
One thing you should keep in mind is that sometimes the production processes messes things up. Updated text does not get where it needs to be, corrections by authors are not communicated by X and Y. Sh*t happens. But for a premium product with such a very, very high price point this sort of thing should have been kept to a minimum. If these are somehow the *only* problems with the Codex, and were a result of production mishaps (“you didn’t open my corrections e-mail!!!”) then that’s a good sign.
http://blogs.wsj.com/drivers-seat/2013/02/28/porsche-recalls-sports-cars-for-tailpipes-that-might-fall-off/
Maybe GW really are the Porsche of the gaming world.
No suprise something like this would happen. They dont give a toss about their resellers and customers so only a matter of time before they stopped giving a toss about their products as well. What a bad bunch of whoppers they are.
This is a case of people just wanting to hate for the sake of it, and you can tell that because people keep mentioning the collector’s edition codex price, as opposed to the normal one, which the vast majority are going to buy.
I struggle to believe anyone would honestly regret buying the collector’s codex for this reason.
In fact, alot of the complaints from people, remind me of the complaints of “that” Brass Eye Episode, where you had people say they’d watched the hour episode and felt offended throughout; why did those people watch the hour episode of a show they knew would offend them? Why are the people in this thread getting far too worked up over a codex they’re not buying?
Mistakes happen in all war gaming systems. If you bought the rulebook for Infinity, then you’d probably be classed as a complete idiot while PP army books are hardly free of errors either (the less said about the release of the War room app the better).
Oh dear the hate word again
You know, I don’t really care As said, poop happens.
But since GW are the self proclaimed premier Porsche, the doyen of gaming, the jewel in the crown , the bees knees and so fantastic; the company that keeps telling everyone how superlative their quality is which is unsurpassed, then one should expect flawless quality.
It ain’t hate to pop their over inflated balloon of Hubris, it is just what people do.
If I told you I am the best modeller in the whole gaming world and put up a piccie, you would be right to pull me down a peg. Would that be “hate”?
From the quote of the article
The products we make for our customers are the best in the wargaming world
you have somehow twisted the quote into
But since GW are the self proclaimed premier Porsche, the doyen of gaming, the jewel in the crown , the bees knees and so fantastic; the company that keeps telling everyone how superlative their quality is which is unsurpassed, then one should expect flawless quality.
No, you’re quite right, what you have said, does not indicate any “hate” at all.
Just because they say that their product is the best there is (and GW are hardly unique in being a company that says such a thing to sell its own products) does not mean that mistakes can’t be made.
I haven’t twisted anything
That is but one quote of many statements. With the additional forrid plaudits from the fans my remarks are about right.
The difference with GW is that they don’t give a damn about their customers and unlike other companies that make such statements they actually belief their own myth.
If I buy something I want it to do the job. I don’t care if it is a computer game that needs patches, or other excuses made to justify shoddy workmanship. Get it right if you want to charge top dollar.
I know exactly when I hate and don’t hate.
Right now I have a lot of it, and it is not directed at a maker of toys. So don’t presume to imply otherwise. There are more important issues to get sanguine about.
Maybe when you are old enough you will learn to distinguish cynicism and satire from hatred. Until then try refraining from using the word as a platitudinous ad hominem..
Many statements from whom? Send me a link of official GW statements, which when combined come up with the quote you have come up as opposed to the rather boring / childish self entitlement beliefs that seems to be particularly prevalent in the online wargaming community.
GW don’t give a damn about their customers? Seems to be rather contrary to nearly every story I’ve ever heard whenever someone has got in contact with their customers services.
OR maybe I could point to the fact that GW released an errata on the very day the codex is released, so as to stop the army being “broken”. If GW really didn’t care about their customers, then why would they care if the codex was “broken”? Why bother updating it at all?
Maybe when you are old enough, you will learn to not use such hyperbolic statements to back up you own horribly flawed arguments.
“GW don’t give a damn about their customers?”
I’ve been through 4 boxes of multiple Fine Cast models, all replacements direct from GW over a Year – I even waited for them to sort their act out over the last time.
Even the recent replacements were full of bubbles. At ONE point I said to them on the phone “please go ahead and open the boxes up and check the models yourself, I would rather you personally check them then just send them to me” – the replacements were worse than the original. They didn’t check them.
Some 5 boxes now of these guys. Do they *really* care? I can’t even swap them at GW because most of their stock are not kept at GW stores.
Yeah because I have the time and inclination to fill in the gaps of your selective memory.
Parody and Satire young padawan Parody and Satire.
I think it’s good that they caught the errors and got the info out right away. One could argue it makes them look on the ball…
I think it’s bad that they charge so much, work to their own schedule, and make claims about their highest standards of quality but still miss these sorts of things. One could argue they aren’t on the ball, they dropped it to begin with.
Mistakes happen, sure, it’s understandable and not a huge deal (especially if addressed). But don’t think I’m not going to mock the guy parading around like a pompous big shot when he steps in the dog poo and falls on his face.
Also, can I say I’m dubious about the so-called popularity of the Tau scum. I mean come on, it’s one thing to underestimate the popularity, and quite another to send mere handfuls of your product to serious retailers, such as the major Online guys. Come on. I don’t buy it.
GW delibs cut down on products, in part to hurt Online retailers I suspect and “push” people into buying from GW directly, but also to simply create the idea that the Tau are in “high demand” and “rare” thus why there are so few to get….
I really do smell a Clan Rat.
Theres a few people flying the ‘mistakes happen’ flag for GW. I get that but when ur a company charging the kind of prices that GW charges and hiking them at will then i think as consumers weve got a bonified right to expect ANYTHING they put out to be right first time yes?
As someone who is something of a proponent of the “mistakes happen” ideology, I come by it for two reasons.
1) No plan survives contact with the enemy. 40K is suitably complex, even more so when you factor in the variances in terrain, allies combinations, etc that eventually some combination, somewhere, is a perfect storm of broken and needs an FAQ or Errata.
2) Modern, international printing, in the run size that GW likely has, with the language localization, is suitably complex enough that I find it hard to believe that there are any less than thousands of balls in the air at any one time, and any one of which could be dropped.
* an optional 3) as someone who lived and breathed in the software industry, eventually you have a release date you need to hit, and if that release date coincides with other merchandising, marketing, events, etc., sometimes it’s nearly impossible to stop the Titanic, and you fix what you can, and you patch the rest.
In the end, really it’s a no win situation. If the FAQ didn’t get made or was made too late, then GW hates their fans, if it was made too soon, they shipped a shoddy product.
This is to be expected when you print all your books in the Far East the printer is not paid to proof read the document, I suspect the plastics are produced there as well now rather than in the factory in Nottingham .
How ever they are not the worst offenders the Darkage rule books and Helldorado are riddled with mistakes and repeats in the text. Helldorado I can forgive because T&A a fantastic concept and had to be translated into English plus it adds charm. But Darkage is a English language book cypher didn’t bother proof reading
And yet most of my other books printed in China are perfectly fine… and they have more text in.
Damni should have proof read my last post oh the shame
At least they corrected the mistake in a very shot amount of time. People would be more angry if they left the missle drone spam in there, converted the models only to be told you can used 6 or whatever..
Good job GW I say.
Not only the FAQ but on having a look through the normal codex itself. The limited edition codex artwork is in the regular book
I don’t understand…well I do I guess, it just tall poppy syndrome going on with GW, everyone seems to criticize them all the time, their business practice, their rules, their codexs their armies, why? just because they’re the biggest? They’re not perfect but nothing in this world is and they are the biggest because they are one of the best. Rock on GW always and forever :o)
Are the tall poppies Papaver somniferum by any chance?
I get not being perfect on launch. I cant remember the last gam release by any company that didn’t have some errors. This is also why I’ve fallen in love with the digital version. The currency pays for the version very quickly.
Conspiracy theory
Hypothetically do you suppose that the company line of “inherantly under estimating” the popularity of this army release, might have actually been a savy business plan?
Having looked at last years GW net worth sales table, the larger income segments alligned with the quarterly army release shedule (no real supprise there). All companies generally aim to try and moderate financial growth, perhaps the reduced or withheld poduction run might be an attempt to artificially prolong the life of the realease? With high demand and low availability of product, the customer base is forced to wait in order to snatch up the dribs and drabs that fitler through.
GW don’t really have to maintain the hype either, once people have the codex. Players are then “locked in” to an army and forced to slowly aquire the models to make it playable.
Sorry if that is too off topic.
Not providing all the models in a new codex seems to be a criticism that has been levelled at GW in the past
For various reasons, its what they do. I doubt if it is a savvy plan.
GW don’t do plans. lol
Sorry I was more refering to the concept of limiting units (modlels cast or extruded) of a production run, of those models they did wish to release. In theory trying to make them more desireable for a longer period of time, say like “space Hulk”
Well who can guess with GW? lol They do all sorts of strange things. It may be possible.
I know that other companies have had problems getting sufficient quantities of new products out of China in the past. certainly Airfix have been stung in this way It could simply be that sort of an issue. (Am assuming GW has production there? may be wrong)
It would not make a lot of sense tooling up for small production runs and normal business sense would suggest that costs per unit would be more than for a large run.
Sooooo….no Tau week? Are you guys finally giving up on GW? All you do now is parrot their commercials.
But did not GW plc give up on 40k players first?
All GW plc do is ‘commercials’.
They do not do PR, or interviews, or communicate in any sort of useful way with their customer base..
It’s interesting that everyone is surprised at GW’s behavior. By this point I have realized that Gw is the Kevin O’Leary of the wargaming indurstry, and are willing to charge the highest prices possible, as long as they make money.
I do agree though that if they charge the amount that they do for their product, they should make sure it doesn’t include stupid errors. Ever since I started playing 40K I have been extremely annoyed at stupid spelling mistakes and grammatical errors, that aren’t just a one time thing, they’re consistent throughout. Having said that, we’re still buying their product and using it, so we still must like a majority of it, or we would have quit completely.
Not sure that people are surprised tbh
Perpetually disappointed maybe closer to the mark.
We live in a deluded state of hope and expectation that GW may actually start behaving less like a parody of a 2 dimensional corporate villain, and more like a business that values its customers.
Until that second coming I, like others, have quit.
Even then I am not sure I would return