December 19, 2012 by darrell
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Can 6th Edition Necrons really do this? Darrell reveals a pretty substantial "loophole" for Necron players during the Relic mission in new 6th Edition 40K.
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This almost sums up why I find the missions in the 40k rulebook to be silly.
It’s fragile and can’t be moved quickly, but can be dropped at any given time? What’s so fragile about it that it can’t be placed in a flyer and why would it automatically crash? Did no one bring their battlefoam lined lead carry case? Also the flier moves at great speed – but there’s no straps inside to secure it?
No this isn’t cheese, this is just Darrell exploiting the flawed logic between the background of a thing, the rules of it and the ham-fisted nature of the scenario. Technically D’s correct though – it doesn’t say you can’t put it in a flyer – just recommends that you shouldn’t because it will crash. It’s not in the spirit of the game but it’s correct as the rules are written.
I have used s similar tactic, but i just disembark the squad from my stationary transport monolith on my side of the table instead. As they count as disembarking from the the monolith as long as you don’t move more the 6″ out of the door you’re fine.
love it cant Waite to use it in a slimier way just hope a new FAQ dose not spoil it.
My response to someone having a go at this would be:
If a model is forced to move more than 6″ the Relic is instantly dropped. Entering reserves would be without doubt more than 6″ unless you crashed within 5″ of the board edge from which you will re-enter the game.
An alternative is that the Necron player can NEVER embark upon the Nightscythe due to the unit that holds the Relic not actually being on the Transport but somewhere else unknown but definately more than 6″ away. So again the Relic would instantly be dropped.
Dimensional Corridor won’t work either. Regardless of how it does so, grabbing a unit from across the other side of the board to a Monolith Portal is certainly moving more than 6″.
Grey Knights can do the same thing.
Interceptors made into troops shunt move on Turn 1 and claim the Relic. Librarian uses “The Summoning” Turn 2. Come get me suckers !
that’s the thing, technically they’re not. they’re disembarking from the monolith so start their movement at it’s door.
I feel that the rule that states that “a zooming flyer can never voluntarily move less than 18 inches” should stop this cheese, as putting the relic on the flyer is effectively volunteering a move of 6 inches.
@bloohunter No way at all mate. If you are any more than 6″ away from the Monolith then all of a sudden you are waltzing out one of it’s access points you have moved more than 6″ no matter which way you try to spin it.
Read up on Dimensional Corridor “the move is treated exactly as disembarking from a vehicle that has moved at combat speed.” this means your squad starts it’s movement by disembarking from the monolith.
I completely agree it’s cheesy and horrible, but RAW i can get away with it.
Read up on how to measure a distance.
If a unit is 48″ away from the Monolith and then suddenly is right next to it there is no way at all to suggest it has done anything other than move 48″.
That’s irrelevant when they are DISEMBARKING FROM A TRANSPORT. Their turn starts by disembarking from the monolith.
Surely you realise that you’re proving your own argument wrong fella… In order to DISEMBARK as you keep insisting that you are doing, you had to move (by whatever feckin means) to EMBARK IN THE FIRST PLACE…
You really should think before you type…
you are TREATED exactly as if disembarking, if you haven’t noticed you can’t actually EMBARK in a monolith.
At the start of any phase draw a circle of radius 6″ around the bearer of the Relic.
If at the end of the phase he is outside of this circle the Relic is dropped, regardless of how he got there.
What you’re saying would allow a unit to be inside any transport that moves any distance so long as they only move 6″ when they get out, which is specifically forbidden by the rules.
Also add to that if the vehicle is treated as having moved at combat speed you have already moved your 6″ so if you disembark anymore than 0″ then you drop the relic, therefore you can’t disembark, so therefore the unit is forced to move more than 6″ so it would drop the Relic before it disappears.
It can never move more than 6″ in any phase, when their turns starts is irrelevant. If they are in one location and then are in another more than 6″ away they must drop the relic.
Pavane of Slaansh anyone ?
combat speed is defined as UP TO 6″, not the full 6″. so if i count as having moved at combat speed i could count as moving 1″, leaving me room to disembark. Nothing states it counts as moving the full 6″.
So a flyer will crash the next time it zooms across the board once you’ve placed the relic inside…? So what if I used a squad of fellas to transport it onto my Stormraven, which would have to be in “hovering” mode to embark/disembark (unless Skies of Blood disembarking, whatever you call it)… Why don’t I just keep moving it in “hover” mode, as opposed to zooming?
Unless I’m reading the rules wrong. I can move up to its desired Combat Speed and it moves like a Fast Skimmer if in “hover” mode, if I so choose to… Yes? So I can just keep moving it up to 6″ instead????
Wrong or right or unfair…??? :/ :/ :/ I’m not experienced in flyers, and could very well be wrong here….
you’re still ignoring the DISEMBARKING FROM A TRANSPORT part, at the start of the movement phase they are disembarking from a transport.
@bloodhunter, I could equally claim that there is nothing to say you have not moved the full 6″. Best of luck convincing any opponent that teleporting a unit across the board and then disembarking 6″ is playing by any sort of rule set. No way can you find anything that justifies that rule.
@dreamzkape yes you can move the Stormraven at 6″ if you want there is no problem there.
hehe! Now, although my Stormraven would become a prime target… Would it be such a great idea??? haha! Considering this, should it move 6″, my squad couldn’t disembark and 6″ (not that I would…) with the Relic, as it’d drop. Might have to try this and ensure full support for my Stormraven…
Just as your entire argument is based on the relic moving across the board instead of disembarking from a transport (which it is disembarking from a transport).
Also i have convinced most of my gaming group (as there isn’t a solid argument against it yet). They make my warriors/monolith priority targets or use fast units to move up and grab it first, if someone else gets there first i have a tough time getting it back especially against a drop pod player who just lands on it turn 1.
Should I be able to get it on board my Stormraven, which could take 2 turns depending on how the game started, I wouldn’t disembark the unit that carried it on. Once it’s on board, I’d need to wait the next turn to move away… But I wouldn’t disembark the unit whatsoever. Keep moving the Stormraven a naff 6″, whilst getting shot at. lol
Stormraven would hopefully arrive on Turn 2 and ZOOM straight up to the Relic, by which time I hope to have a unit to grab it. Turn 3 it’s in hover mode, moves close enough for the unit holding the Relic to move and embark the only 6″. Then Turn 4, move the flyer away… It’s quite a lot to do…
And Relic is by no way an easy game.
@magpie as much as i wish i could agree with you the wording of dimensional corridor does seem to allow for it… i wouldn’t agree with Darrell’s guys in the nightscythe tactic… not sure what argument yet but there’s a few ideas in the back of my head as to why you can’t… however a method I’ve got with Eldar that can’t be argued with in terms of legality is to turbo-boost guardian jetbikes onto relic then use my assault phase jumpy move to go back towards my lines then move jump for a while 😀 @bloodhunter the dimensional corridor tactic is still rather cheesy and i think I’m not gonna use it in the interest’s of fair play
@bloodhunter. You’re not playing it right. If the unit holding the relic is moved from one place to another more than 6″, regardless of how it does so it drops the Relic. The unit using it’s on movement or not has nothing to do with it, it is the displacement of the object in 3d space that is important. That’s why I mention Pavane of Slaanesh as it is a way to force your opponent to drop the relic if you roll right.
@dreamzskape. Go for Interceptors mate. Use your GM Grand Strategy to make them troops. Shunt move them to grab the relic then have them bug out. Being Jump Infantry they can move a little quicker than other units by jumping over difficult terrain etc.
Use the ‘raven to shoot up the enemy. If you want you can land and embark the unit but it isn’t really worth the bother. You’d be better off with another unit of Intereceptors in it so they can Shadow Skies in to get in the way of pursuers.
Unless of course Bloodhunter talks you into being able to fly the ‘raven 6″ then have the unit inside disembark and move another 6″, which it can’t do.
Alas, my friend, I’m using Blood Angels. Well, the BA Codex. Sternguard are my fave unit. So I’d most likely have enough DPs to drop 2 in the 1st Turn. Drop the killer unit behind enemy lines to cause problems, and then drop the 2nd with a Troop between the enemy and the Relic. Would be my plan. Problem is the SR arriving on time and give the drop units support until it DOES arrive… Not a concrete plan, however… But a player needs one… lol
No point disembarking, which like you said, I could not do, once the Relic is on board. It’d be tough though… But Interceptors, eh? Allies, I smell. Allies…
Yeh Sternguard are the business.
Indeed. And I hate spamming, but I would field a Sternguard army with Pedro. I just love Sternguard. My favourite unit. Wolf Guard come 2nd because they are crazy and can be equipped somewhat better in a mad-but-loving way. lmao
just to ponder on a thought lets say Obyron gets to the relic picks it up and uses a “lantern” to teleport to Nemesor Zahndrekh at you end of the table what would happen then to the relic?
Depends… Can you teleport “anywhere on the board” or, say, within 24″? If anywhere, I’d say the Relic stays with the model. If within 24″ (an example), you’d only be able to teleport 6″ else risk dropping the Relic. I reckon anyhow.
IMO the rules says the relic is IMMEDIATELY dropped if it is forced to move over 6″, not dropped after the 6″. So if it was put on a flyer and that flyer had to zoom the relic would be dropped at the point of pickup. So Darrels cheese IMO wouldn’t work cause the Unit would imbark on the Flyer and the relic would drop out at that point and then the flyer would move.
I take Immediately to mean be for the movement is made.
@obyron, if Zahndrekh is any more than 6″ away from Obyron then the Relic is dropped. “never move more than 6′ in any phase” means you can never be more than 6″ from where you started the phase at anytime, regardless of how you get there. If you’re going to claim a flyer crashes because it it “forced” to move only 6″ then everything else has to be “forced” to move only 6″ as well.
@dreamzkape soemthing I thought of overnight is that there is a huge advantage to putting your guys in a ‘raven (or any other vehicle) and hovering away. you can move 6″ in the movement phase but you can then “flat out” another 6 in the shooting phase.
Ah! Spot on @magpie. I was actually wondering during work how I could further the movement. Daymn! I forgot about moving Flat Out. Thanks 😉 🙂 It’s a lot of work to get the tactic to work, but if it wins the game for me… Can’t complain.
lol Bryan….you never win so I wouldn’t bother with tactics of any kind my dear brother!! Concentrate on my birthday coming up and my jimmy choos you need to be saving… wurh wurh wurh!!! P.S best tell rob to log out before I get to the PC.
I would call this legit
@magpie – given movement is a clearly defined action within the game it is the act of movement that would cause the model to be dropped. When the unit enters reserve it is removed from play – 0 movement the unit doesn’t move over 6″ as they are not on the flyer hence the entering reserve rule. Which is why veiling a relic away would work as you redeploy not move to clearly defined but different terms.
When it deploys from reserve if it doen’t move more than 6″ the relic isn’t dropped – I understand why you don’t want this to prove correct – but that is the issue with lax rules and scenario writing, it allows for abuse of the rules or in this case creative use of game mechanics as the fluff clearly supports this tactic.
As an other example uk tax law is lax enough starbucks etc can shift money to other countries so UK runs at 0 profit – and dodge tax. Not a sporting think to do but the fault is with the law not the abusers. Of course you may decide to avoid said abusers as a consequence…
It really doesn’t bother me either way, I can take just as much advantage of the rule as the next guy but it simply isn’t correct. If the unit is in Reserve it isn’t on the table when once it was therefore it has move more than 6″.
Movement in terms of the Relic is the general case of displacing from one place to another, it is not limited to the actual act of movement as determined by a unit’s movement allowance, as the rule says 6″ in any phase.
Were does it state it is the displacement and not movement? The distance between where the model starts and finishes is irrelvant – its the distanced moved as far as I recall.
To be fair this is such a minor rules gaffe by GW standards. I remember when Jervis came out with the no more FAQs its rules as written – that lasted about a week as people pointed out thing like terminators didn’t have terminator armour in the marine codex at the time.
Because it says “in any phase” so it isn’t confined to “movement” in the Movement Phase sense.
right seen as there sent to reserve who is to say were that is apart from off the table given Necrons ability to use different dimensions can not the reserve point be 6″ from the table but in a different dimension were its the game table that moves not the reserves (like the world rotating and a space craft reentering at a point to land in a specific country) there for keeping the relic in reserve and not moving 6″ so it will not get dropped.. all in my mind perfectly what you think magpie? LOL
That sounds great mate. Sorry what page is that on again?
another problem is @obyron is that when the alternate dimension swings back around to release the unit from the reserve “witchspace” it would still have to displace the relativistic >6″ to be able to correlate back to the same plane of our existence.
Small question: When a unit leaves the game (Like when entering reserves) can it take away the Relic? I think this seems to be the major issue fluffwise, cause if they left the game already (Getting back to some place far from the battlefield and then back), what reason would it have to come back to the battlefield and then go away again? And if the relic has all those “fragile” rulings, I think withstanding warp travel and teleportation in general would be problematic as well. Maybe it is something to be FAQed.
If your necrons can move through the warp all the way off the table without dropping it than my warp spiders can move 6″ than jump through the warp 2D6 without dropping it. Somehow i don’t think that would fly with anyone.
This kinda crap is what keeps me away from the new edition of WH40K
This crap isn’t because of the rules mate.
First n probly last time poster…
Darrell mate im sorry but this is ridiculous stupid, if u tried this against me i would probly try the old table flip in order to cold cock u quicker! n on this ur “cheesy” tactics are usually stupid and im very surprised that u have ever placed decent in a tourney if u think these are good and legitimate tactics… case in point ur ultimate cheesy tau tactic with a suicide ethereal off the bastin
When you move ANY unit REGARDLESS OF HOW, it is still COUNTED AS MOVING the distance you moved. Also, the BRB says the Relic is dropped immediately, so you can’t go 36 inches then drop it.
@gazdar: What was wrong with the ‘suicide Ethereal’? Are you saying it’s a waste of points or something? Or ‘The Price of Failiure’ only kicks in when he is killed by an enemy?
It’s just an arsehole of a thing to do servant
Agreed.
This is completely fair and perfectly legal. Note, in the actual mission it says that “the model carrying the relic cannot run and can never move more than 6″ in any phase.” and “A model carrying the relic can embark on a transport vehicle, but that vehicle cannot move more than 6″ per phase whilst the relic is on board (so don’t put it in a flyer, as the flyer will automatically crash next time it zooms).” The bracketed section is advice, and not an actual rule, so it can be ignored. That being said, this play does not violate any of the other conditions for carrying the relic. The unit only moves 6″ and embarks. Next turn the flyer only moves 6″ and crashes. As per the necron rules the unit enters ongoing reserves. At this point it has not moved more than 6″ and is in reserves. When they return to the field, they move 6″ and no conditions are violated.
As a note to non-necron players whose armies have psykers or units capable of deep striking. It is also perfectly legal to use a special rule or Gate of Infinity to deep strike a unit carrying the relic back to your table edge so long as the unit is not a vehicle or jump infantry. Gate of Infinity allows you to place a token within 24″ of the units current possition, but this is not the unit moving. The movement occurs when they deep strike. A unit arriving from deep strike “cannot move any further, other than to disembark from a deep striking transport vehicle if they are in one.” This means that they have moved their maximum possible distance during the movement phase. Next, “In that turn’s shooting phase, these units can fire (or run) as normal, and obviously count as having moved in the previous movement phase. Vehicles, except for walkers, count as having moved at cruising speed (even immobile vehicles).” Thus, when we break this down this is what we get.
1) A vehicle counts as having moved its maximum potential speed.
2) Thus, it is safe to assume that any deep striking unit counts as moving at its maximum potential speed with certain units, such as jump infantry, having moved 12″.
3) A deep striking unit can still fire or run in the shooting phase, having counted as moving.
4) Regular infantry can only move 6″ in the movement phase and can still fire all weapons or run in the shooting phase.
5) Thus, regular infantry count as having moved only 6″ when deep striking, as this is the maximum possible distance that they can normally move.
6)Finally, this means that regardless of how great a linear distance a unit of regular infantry has traversed they count as having only moved 6″ in the movement phase due to deep striking. Therefore they do not violate any of the conditions for moving the relic as they are not moving any distance greater than 6″ and are not running, and can deep strike with the relic anywhere on the board.
Go ahead and try this at any tournament. It is totally legal and violates no rules and any legitimate tournament judge would permit this.
So, for example, if I had a Librarian attached to 10-Sternguard (scoring because of Pedro), I could use the Gate of Infinity to move them to safety, anywhere within the allowed 24″ range?
Sounds very interesting as it does state that a unit may move only 6″ in its MOVEMENT phase, or any phase for that matter. However, as you’ve pointed out that the Gate of Infinity is a Deep Strike to another area, which counts as their maximum movement option, which is why they can only shoot/run.
Gate of Infinity is a Deep Strike, not an actual movement… But I’m more than sure that people would argue against it in a tournament because they don’t think it’s fair or because they didn’t expect it. I guess using the actual text is what’ll help me get away with it.
You have alot of good points but I dont feel the same. And I feel you overlooked a key sentence in the rules. Like you say the flyer crashing is not a rule its in brackets so its advice and i agree should be ignored. In the sentences right be for the ones you quoted tho, it says ” The Relic is fragile, and swift movement will likely damage it, so the model carrying the Relic cannot Run and can never move more than 6″ in any phase. If it is forced to do so, the Relic is immediately dropped.” If the flyer is zooming it has to move more than 6″, so if the relic is aboard said flyer/transport it is IMMEDIATELY dropped.
In the rules for dropping the Relic it says “If the relic is dropped whilst aboard a transport vehicle,(that is what the Necron flyer is, correct?) place it 1” away from a randomly determined access point.
Definition of immediately is 1-without delay 2-directly; without an intermediary.
I take that as to mean be for anything else happens the Relic is dropped.
You know i”m probably wrong but I can’t see how anything else could be done Especially if your following “Rules as Written”
I guess You could always roll a d6 or flip a coin.
This is one of those times where it could very easily go either way, since the necron unit in question does not immediately redeploy to the board. Since the rules for the relic never state what happens to the relic if the unit carrying it legally leaves play and then later re-enters the field, there is no definite solution. The other thing is that I realised that I was wrong on an earlier point. The flyer must move at least 18″ but in the wording a unit carrying the relic CANNOT move more than 6″. The brakets also state that a flyer will crash immediately if it zooms. This actually means that the flyer crashes the moment it would move and ends up not moving at all. The reality is that this scenario is a mess and GW needs to get themselves in gear and fix this problem or you will see a pile of people arguing over a scenario that they will play less than 1/6 of the time.
Another rule: if the Relic is dropped, it must be placed as close as possible to where it was dropped. That suggests that it would crash with the Night Scythe. Of course, this tacti means that you pick up the Relic, go, ‘oh, look, my Scythe burnt. Now it comes my table edge’ and dare the opponent to break through your carefully planned defenses.
The relic starts the game in the middle of the table, in one move is a table edge within 6 inches?
@polaris3000 if the unit carry the relic is not within a sphere 6″ in radius at the end of the phase it drops the relic there is no way around this. That includes not being on the table at all.
Yeah. it’s just Darrel being cheesy (I’m not having a go at him).
In all seriousness Darrell; how the heck do ever find opponents to play against? If you tried half the crap you say/think you can do against me I’d laugh, pack my stuff up and move on to someone else. I cant think of anyone that would enjoy playing against such a rules exploiter/lawyer. But every area has a different meta or gaming group type, so to each their own. Where are you exactly so I don’t EVER move there. 😛
And moving terrain! And changing it’s designation! (Orks vs Space Marines Live Rounds Battle Report)
I believe you can actually move certain terrain if needed to place models (such as trees, loose and unstable terrain)
I prefer the ridge (like moving up ruins) that became a hill for his vindicator lol
I would love to play darrell, I have the most patience ever 🙂
Just stop cheating. It’s not a rule loophole, it’s a hole in the wording being exploited by the weak-minded. Play the game guys…just play the game.
The way I see it, is the model is being ‘PHYSICALLY MOVED’ more than 6 inches (whether its being moved off the board to reserve or across the board by some funky ability) the model is still be moved.
The answer is simple – The relic is dropped! lol
That would never get by me so stop cheese hunting – but I do like the creativity – Thats why I love this game hahaha 🙂
Yeah. It should have been a rule, not a suggestion, that you don’t put Relics in Flyers. This is too cheesy. I would never do it.
What is wrong about the rule is suggesting that a flyer moves less than 6″ and crashes.
What should happen is that if the relic ends up on a flyer and that flyer zooms the Relic is dropped, simple as that..
the updated necron digital codex says ““If the Night Scythe is destroyed, the embarked unit suffers no damage and is not allowed to disembark, but instead enters Reserves (when they arrive, they cannot Deep Strike).
”
Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Codex: Necrons.” v1.1. Games Workshop, 2012. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.
Check out this book on the iBookstore: https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/codex-necrons/id538370665?mt=11
That clarifies it a lot.
But isn’t that the same as the original wording? Or just about, anyway? What does that change?
“suffers no damage” clears up whether they take damage from the vehicle’s destruction THEN go into reserve which was a bit unclear previously.
Doesn’t really impact this ummmm “suggestion” but then this “suggestion” is stretching the rules interpretation about as fat as it will go.
New FAQ is out but It doesn’t seem to resolve anything. At least in regards to the Relic and that stupid Suggestion in parenthesis.
One of them is “Can a Night Scythe carry a model that is unit type Infantry?(p51) Yes.” LOL I don’t even know what to say about that.