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Are Mantic Going Sci-Fi?
May 20, 2011 by beerogre
If you missed TURN 8 last night, then you may not have heard about the leaked pictures we have uncovered, that seemed to originate from Mantic Games.
Here they are, now in glorious Hi-Resolution, after Lloyd has worked his digital magic on them.
As you can see there are a number of vehicles including one that was obviously designed by a fan of the Thundercats!
This is exciting stuff, the potential for a sci-fi game on the scale of Kings of War is a mouthwatering prospect... perhaps that might help to soften the blow of the latest GW price announcements.
BoW Andy
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It looks like a mashup of Squats and Voltron. The Hummer might be a keeper for my traitor geard if it turns out to be true.
I imagine if they created something that could do as female Imperial guard they would clear up.
Hear that , Mantic! female Imperial guard! Sound’s like a winner to me! Youguyz got away with ripping off GW so far so why not beat them at their own game? especially with the introduction of “Fine cast” I think players will be deserting GW in droves soon?
Yeah it was mentioned on 40k radio a while ago, they said thet they were going “Gothic Sci-Fi” a.k.a… 40k! Love you Mantic, we can beat the price increases!
Can They stop copying GW? For the love of God Mantic. Your business practices are on the same level a GW.
In Mantics defence They aren’t copying GW they have created a range of generic fantasy armies. If they happen to be competing with GW then that can only be good for the hobby. I for one appreciate the alternative option.
No. They are. Look at the range, they may be generic, but all the troop choises are the same of Warhammer. The Orcs slogan was “why pay more?” implying for Warhammer orc players to buy from them since they sell them cheaper. When they announced The Abyssal Dwarf they where called Khaos Dwarf so the Warhammer player would take a look at them but at the last minute change the names so they dont have any legal issues. They are making now Goblins as a Army, for what? To acompany the Orcs for what? For the Warhammer player. On the Undead armies, Mantic making command groups on some kits that did not have them you know why? Because the equivalent troop in the Vampire Counts army has a command group option.Mantic cant make original troop choises. They just copy what Games Workshop has and call it their own.
While I’ll partially agree with you, unless GW starts to copyright words to do with the range they supply such as Chaos, Marines, Space etc., Mantic could call their version of Space Marines Astral Marines or Troopers and as long as they don’t copy the design of GWs minis GW could huff and puff all day long and not get anywhere, and as Plasma, and Laser are also words that are not copyrighted they could use those too.
There’s a lot that Mantic can and can’t do, just as long as they tread carefully they wont come into any problems.
“There’s a lot that Mantic can and can’t do, just as long as they tread carefully they wont come into any problems.”
Thats the problem. Why they need to copy? I just wish they were original in that respect. If they are going sci-fi I just wish they go from scratch and not look the armies of 40k and copy everything.
“Lets make an army very similar to Space Marines so people will buy them”
“Lets get Alessio Cavattore to makes us some rules so people think we are making this for our game!”
In truth they are just selling to the Games Workshop player which is sad since they have talent, but their Business Practices are horrible.
@philld77 Gw could never copyright individual generic works in and of themselves. If that were possible it would have been done long before GW and none of us would be able to speak at all without paying a royalty to someone lol. Copyrights are for coined phrases and ideas which are patent.
Perhaps you should take a moment to think about how difficult it is to launch a mass battle game in this industry.
They are the ONLY direct competitor of GW in the market (i.e. Like for Like) all the others are small level skirmish games etc.
As much as you may disagree with how they do business in the long run they are probably doing you a massive favour.
Its not hard Warzan. Look at what they did, they started making models for a range, then they made a new range, on the third range they released the game. Why on earth could they not have made more original things for them. God I look at their website and all I can think about is “this this is X thing and that thing is Y thing in Warhammer”
If you were Games Workshop, would you like a company to do this bastardization Mantic is pulling on GW?
No.
I know Games Workshop practices are horrible but they are on the same level as Mantic. Both are trying to make money wrongly.
I don’t think you get his point. He is saying that their marketing strategy is clearly to offer a copy/knock-off to units done by GW. They are riding off other’s work.
Hell, Their last youtube video is called “Mantic Games: Orc Update and Meet Waaagh!”. WAAAGH!, I dare you to tell me that’s original with a straight face.
Granted there are similarities between GW armies and Mantic armies but that’s not an issue. Hell my Imperial Romans from warlord came with a command group that doesn’t mean they’ve copied GW. As you’ve said Mantic have the talent and I’m sure in the fullness of time they will release original ideas of their own however the generic armis are required to get a basis to expand. People recognise these armies, they know what to expect and they are popular forces. The success of these forces then allows the company to develop other ventures. There is clearly a demand for 28mm plastics, however would Mantic have been so successful with leas familiar armies? I doubt it
If you believe they are just copying GW then let them. Let them show GW they can do it cheaper. Let them show us all. I Love the 40K world but I HATE the Corporate management of it, the Monopoly and the Prices. Let Mantic take a Similar version of the world I Love and take away the part I Hate.
I think saying they’re simply copying GW is silly. It’s generic high fantasy. What were there first army lines? Elves, undead and dwarves. Again your generic high fantasy staples.
I’ve been away from the hobby for a while but I bought the Undead Warhost to get me back into the swing of painting and because they’re great models but there’s a catapult in there and dogs. I had a flick through a friends Vampire Counts book and I didn’t see catapults or dogs there.
As GW has practically monopolised the hobby they have to be mindful of the fact that a great number of people buying their models will proxy them into WHFB so it only makes good business sense get some compatibility in there. On that though what also makes good business sense is the realisation that a huge number of player playing GW games enjoy the game but hate the company so would happily give their money to someone else. They’re our Microsoft.
When I first got into the hobby White Dwarf would have articles on AD&D and you could go into their shops without being pounced on and having the latest over-priced shiny unit stuffed down your throat and even buy stuff for other games. My hope for mantic is they wrest some of the hobby back out of GW’s hands and get people expanding their horizons, maybe even trying other games after Kings of War and who knows, one day maybe even GW will loosen up a bit. All this “must be citadel to be tournament legal” stuff is sickening and destroying the hobby IMHO. A skeleton’s a skeleton ffs why should it matter if I bought it from GW, Mantic, Reaper or whoever. A bit of healthy competition from Mantic will hopefully wake them up.
GW doesn’t have the trademark on orcs, goblins, undead, or any of that stuff. They’re tropes that have been around in ‘fantasy’ for years and years even before Tolkien.
Frankly, I like the fact that Mantic is trying to eat GW’s lunch. Keeps ’em honest. Well, maybe.
BoW Adam
It would actually be kinda nice to see a bit of originality from Mantic as it is true that if you’re going to pillage from another company’s consumergroup so blatantly then you really should try harder to make your alterative range a bit more interesting than and diverse than the one you’re basing it on. At last try and go for a slightly different dynamic with the troop choices rather than making a thinly veiled attempt at coppying them. A prime example is that of the so called Abyssal Dwarfs.
Couldn’t Mantic come up with a better name than Abyssal ? Sound’s a bit crap to me but it was nearly as bad going for the same title as GW but changing ONE LETTER!! How about Renegade Dwarfs? Dwarf Renegades? And the why pay more slogan was a bit thin as arguments go as there’s not a lot of price differenc as far as I can see.
Even if Mantic are BLATANTLY ripping off GW, I think they wholelly deserve it. GW has had it their way for too long hence the reason that their stuff constantly goes up and up and up in price while every one else’s has only escalated slightly.
They need some good strong compettition to stop them taking their subscribes for granted which I believe they are.
Loving the look of the “thundercat tank”
This could be interesting. I’ve been thinking of trying to get into more sci-fi stuff and this might be what i’ve been waiting for.
Hope these are ROUGH concepts.
Not really that excited by the pics. LOVE the concept of Mantic Sci Fi though!
Damn.. In my opinion all of those apart from Hummer look bad. I’m affraid that the big potential for alternative 40k plastic miniatures can be wasted ;/ I hope those are just some discarded ideas from the upcoming Sci-Fi range. And I hope that those will not be dorfs in space.
I wouldn’t mind it if they did, if they can make a success of it and give GW some healthy competition then maybe GW will start to appreciate it’s customers a little more rather than just expecting them to buy, but then again you’re not forced to but just GW as the guys said last night plenty more systems out there, if this does pan out though just one more to pick and choose from, so a bonus for all 😉
I think that the cat-tank has to be a bit of a joke. Even Mantic has a sense of humor guys. Hummers and Dwarf bikes sure…. but a cat tank?
I love me some new minis, I have stuff from games I’ll never ever play, just because they look nice, and thats some nice concepts right there.
But to compete as a game, its all about the rules. I hope they get that bit right (GW havent for a while really)
I dunno if this is old new but I was speaking to Ronnie a couple of weeks back at DWS and he said that this was coming out in September and the first two races would be Space Orks and Dwarves.
Oh man i am definitely excited about these. Mantic will not disappoint.
I can honestly say that this has me very very excited! Mantic copying GW? Who cares about that if it makes GW do something to adjust their attitude! Do you think that it is a mistake that this “leak” (lol I know right :P) came just as the yearly price hike came? I think not Watson!
Mantic need to steal fantasy players pure and simple. Their objective is to get you to buy their stuff to play fantasy with it and then for you to then try the ruleset because you have the models. Simple and effective.
Thats some great business ethics right there.
I cant understand why would people think like this? If they hate GW so much then dont support them, that includes playing their game. Dont buy the army books not even the rulebooks, just play Kings of War then. Oh let me guess, its not ass good compared to Warhammer, then support your game. I hope one day Mantic takes a slip and they get sued hard for being so arrogant and leaching sales out of the hard work GW has put all those 20+ years in creating this game.
Would you also support Wizards of the Coast sueing GW?
Remember GW was originally created to sell Dungeons & Dragons and they began making alternative miniatures for D&D. Now they even have all the same races as D&D… of course some have different names… Slann for Bullywugs… Kroxigor for Blackscale Lizardfolk… Dark Elves for Drow… etc.
D&D has been around for nearly 40 years… longer than all of the other fantasy games and Traveller and Battletech was there before 40K.
I fear your righteous indignation is misplaced.
Preach it Andy
DnD also owes a lot to Vance and JRRT
and both DnD and JRRT owe it all to the ancient greeks
Oh Andy.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but Wizards of the Coast wich if I’m not mistaken aquired D&D after Warhammer was created. But thats not the issue. Only sold single miniatures. Now GW sells armies, bear with me on this since I dont know much of GW since I was born on 1987 and learned of GW a couple of years back. But what you are asking is if WotC should sue GW? why? Look at Warcraft. They were going to make a Warhammer game but GW cut off the deal and they made Warcraft and Starcraft. But lets put it in perspective, did they made a miniatures game? No, if they had done it, it would be Mantic. To be quite honest I dont know why GW didnt sue Blizzard but they are too late to do it.
The thing is GW made for D&D single miniatures for it, and lets not forget, they are at the time genereic as they can get in races and monsters. Maybe one or 2 original but does GW produces them now? No.
The problem with Mantic is that you look at the High elves army book, the Vampire Couns army book, Dwarves and Orcs and you can see all the products they make except 0.1% of their stuff is a direct rip off of their stuff. Mantic ven made Battle Standard Bearers. Lets not Forget Khaos Dwarf that they at the last minute changed the name of them to Abyssal Dwarves to avoid legal issues, its a rip off and noboy can deny it.
I will continue to buy from them, but their business ethics and practices are so wrong as GWs price rises every year or so. My point is, I wish they would stop copying and start investing money on some writers and make a good lore/fluff and then develop from there, but not copy what GW has had created for more than 20 years and then make some vage crappy lore/fluff.
Again, I will buy from them since they make some goos scuplts and for THEIR GAME, I repeat I will buy and have bought for the Kings of War game since its easy to teach to my grilfriend, but, If they keep doing these they will one day get sued so hard they wont have a leg to stand on.
the Mantic stuff is generic fantasy so no ip issues…I see you point monly the selection does rather nicely fit a GW army list. Once Mantic has a toe hold im sure they will get more creative for want of a better word
I think PP started off as making stuff for DnD and that built them up enough to move into minis…. I like PP and Im not surprised they are profitable as some of their figs prices make me want to cry as well 😉
That’s a red herring… D&D has been around for nearly 40 years. They established a a set cast of races and game tropes that have been adopted by so many fantasy games, that they are now the basis of a whole raft of games.
Traveller has been a sci-fi alternative to D&D for only a few years less than the great red box itself and established a generic canvas of sci-fi gaming that also included genetically modified marines.
Whether GW made single miniatures or not is another red herring. Are you saying the Mantic individual models are OK, it’s only the regiment sprues that are a problem?
The fact that the miniatures were made (and marketed) in such a way that they could be used for the alternative game was surely you’re point, was it not?
I wonder would you be this vehement if Mantic also stated that their miniatures could be used for Songs of Blades & Heroes, Warlord and others… if they included a list of alternatives… would that be OK?
OMG MANTIC MADE STANDARD BEARERS!?
Did GW invent Standard Bearers !? Guess GW should sue all those Sharpe episodes I saw.
Yes it is true Mantic obviously want to make sure their models are compatible with other game systems including GW. That’s why they brought out some Slayers. But other than that the bulk of their units are generic.
But you need to be made aware, clearly, about why you are wrong:
Elves: Mantic released these models who suspiciously look like the elves in the LORD OF THE RINGS movies: full armour. Now, if Mantic wanted to just make High Elves models for Warhammer players to use (as you claim quite clearly) then you have to explain why Mantic made their Elves considerably thinner and smaller than GW elves. Also you need to explain why their Archers were released with shields, because GW High Elves do not arm themselves with shields. Then Mantic released cavalry with considerably heavier armour than the GW silver helms. They release a Bolt Thrower which granted is GW (fair enough) but also an Elf Flamethrower which is not GW. Either way, the Mantic elves are just not compatible with Warhammer models due to the size difference. Simple logic: if Mantic wanted to provide a solid replacement for GW models (NOTHING wrong with that) then they would be in proportion with GW models, but they aren’t.
Mantic Dwarfs: Yes generic dwarf handgunners and crossbowmen. Are they meant to be armed with bows? Irrelevant though: the Mantic dwarfs are far larger and bulkier than the GW dwarfs. You cannot use them for GW games unless you want to be very out of place. The Beserkers are indeed ‘Slayers’ but that does not warrant your a ” except 0.1% of their stuff is a direct rip off ” comment. Again – your argument fails for the simple reason that if Mantic wanted to create models to directly use in GW their dwarfs would be smaller and the same size as GW, which they aren’t (in my view it was stupid for Mantic to not produce GW sized dwarfs).
The Mantic Undead are generic with the exception of the ‘Grim Reapers’ which I grant your criticism to but then … so what? Are grim reapers *really* GW property? Did they invent them? The Dread Knights or whatever are, however, a clear attempt to match GW’s ones, which are like £6 each or something disgusting, but then again, what’s wrong with providing generic alternatives? Mantic’s Ghouls are also totally different to GWs but never mind that.
Abysal Dwarfs are obviously a take on Chaos Dwarfs but they look quite different, so the question is, did GW invent ‘evil dwarfs’ ?? GW have no existing ruleset, only fans, so what, exactly, are Mantic doing wrong?
I could go on but let’s look at GW shall we? Almost everything about Warhammer is stolen. Look at the Tomb Kings, they are literally taken STRAIGHT out of the Mummy movies. Their VC skeletons are copied straight from Pirates of the Caribbean. I could go on and on. NECRONS? I mean seriously. Why hasn’t James Cameron taken down GW eh? Skaven are ripped off a trilogy of British Novels, Rats and Domain if I recall.
Now, why shouldn’t Mantic release brand new non-generic models of their own creation? Because they are young company building up a base with a rule-set which is basically 2 pages. The risk is too much given the cost. I mean, what happens if they say released a ‘Fish people’ army? Because they fit into few other game systems and their own rule-set is not sufficient (yet) to sustain someone investing in buying an army of .. fish people. Etc, extrapolate.
The idea that Mantic are just as bad as GW is just… absurd. To top it off, their new line of Orcs, stupidly, are not that compatible with GW. No spears. And their second wave are armed with Halberds. Spears are the standard weapons for GW Orcs, and no Orc in Warhammer can carry a Halberd.
That will do for now. If you want to maintain that Mantic’s no.1 plan is to get Warhammer players to use their models for warhammer, instead of GW’s, then you have to explain why the massive size difference.
Monly, you need to think before you react.
The previous poster was attempting to educate you about the history of gaming. I first started playing d and d before you were born and trust me, 80% of warhammer fantasy is a DIRECT ripoff of d and d (created by the now passed away master Gary Gygax!) Every single race in fantasy was created and developed first in d and d and earlier pieces of fantasy like tolkien and conan.
What about 40k you say…well, lets think about this one:
Tyranids – I think there was a film called Alien/s/3, etc, etc that had something that looked awfully like Tyranids, I wonder which one came out first (just so you know it was Aliens)
Catachans – ripoff of 80’s action films like Rambo and Commando
Space Orks – Oh please, how is that original???
Eldar – Elves in space…another highly original concept
Dark Eldar – Dark elves in space…once again, another highly original idea
Daemons – foor f sake, all they did was add an a to the word…they are exactly like d and d demons!
Blood Angels – Greek warriors in space, sorry, I’ve copyrighted nipple armour!
Space Wolves – Vikings in space
Necrons – OMFG is that a Terminator. And I mean the movie, not the marine armour…check a wiki, the movies came out first.
Cadians – World war 2 American soldiers
Tau Empire – Another blatent ripoff, this time of Robotech, a cartoon from the 80’s, way before the Tau were even thought of.
Space Marines – armour concepts and designs pretty well stolen from early japanese cartoons.
Chaos space marines – see above.
Hopefully now you will see Monly that GW did not invent everything on their own, they took very good ideas and concepts and MARKETED it successfully (and convinced a whole bunch of fan boys that they created all these wonderful ideas).
Now, I love 40k, I love the minis and the game, but I am not going to blindly follow GW. Competition is good, and as an aussie who has recently been shafted by GW (remember, I pay more than DOUBLE in real terms what UK and USA consumers pay) I can’t wait for Mantic to release its scifi range, I will definately be making the switch.
Rant over,
Ashen
I fear your righteous sucking up is sad.
Does GW even imply their products are for DnD RPGs? Nope, but Mantic is very blantanly marketing their models as an alternative model line to Warhammer fantasy. Look at their newsletter saying “Why pay less for Orcs?”, theirs videos (specially the last two), and the mini line itself.
,
I think point was that saying Mantic derserves/should be sued was the issue.
I agree its sad that Mantic do have a bit of coat tailing but the reality is GW is the no1 player so to get market share it makes sense to be compatible with the top dog. I also think the Why pay more tag was silly. Kings of War is what Mantic wants to be about
my Mantic investment is dwarf kings hold so i dont really have my hat in this
@trebormills Look at Warmachine and Horde. Nothing like the top dog yet the are very profitable.
@wargamerlester you are wrong. GW have copied D&D in the past and built a business on the success of the D&D phenomenon (do you remember my interview with Steve Jackson… one of the guys who started GW?). Then GW launched their own line of games and grew from there… is this potted history beginning to sound familar to you?
However, that is irrelevent. You are tipping at windmills. Marketting yourself as a viable alternative is a time-honoured practice and unless you also disagree with “The Pepsi Challenge”, then I fail to see why having more choice in the marketplace that suits a viariety of budgets is a bad thing.
its the same as online games most people always compare new games to world of warcraft as if it was the 1st online game when there was many b4 it. gw doesnt and shouldnt ever own the rights of most of the races they use as most of the fluff they have used over the years have been based on other things ie cultures,myths and history
The problem with GW is that once you have invested in their game system and their models for several years and have built a sizeable collection of stuff, it’s very difficult to just say, “that’s it I’m not buying any of their stuff no more!” it’s a kind of addiction I guess. And it’s true, once you’re in to the GW ethos, nothing else seems as good. Mantic doesn’t have a world spanning network of shops/hobby centers that you can pop down to when you fancy a game so it’s hard for anyone else to compete on that kinda level. It’s Not so much Hatred as resentment for your comitment to a hobby that appreciates its participants so much that it hikes it’s prices every year. I would also reitterate Mr beerogre’s comment below as it’s a very good point.
found this on a German website. Not sure if its real or not as that guy on the left looks familiar from somewhere but anyway here goes:
http://www.brueckenkopf-online.com/?p=33328
OMG i hope that is real. I hope it is so much…
That one is not real. It was an April Fool’s joke. However, if it’s any consolation, it was a good enough one that even a few guys who work for Mantic had to do a double-take, as well as a number of their hardcore fans.
I see a lot of people that trash on mantic yet at the time whine about gw prices. The whole reason you pay so much for gw is because there are no companies that even compete with them. Bring on the mantic sci fi I will just hide the money I saved up for an eldar army till I see what mantic has to offer. Now if you will excuse me I am going to get me a Kola from my pepsi fridge.
Not keen on using different figures with 40k….cos im bored with it. Ill go for food while you have your turn is so 1980’s guys.
I will look forward to the new game system, but Infinity is hard to beat. Some concepts are a bit way out there, i like the hummer…Car wars or any sci fi game needed transport can use it.
To be honest, Mantic Sci Fi doesnt do anything for me, those concept arts do even less!
I agree with some of the other posters about mantic hanging on to GW aprion strings, the fact they market themselves as cheaper models for warhammer really put me off them sadly.
It was the Orcs, why pay more? Id rarther pay more for your own concepts mantic!
Oh my goodness, what a load of twaddle there is on this thread.
GW were not created to sell Dungeons and Dragons, they made wooden board games and then got the gig to import D&D before publishing White Dwarf, a generic role playing games magazine (and the best one there ever was) and then doing their own role playing games then Warhammer etc..
Citadel made miniatures that could be used for D&D, GW bought or merged with Citadel at a later date.
D&D and Warhammer have nothing in common except a generic fantasy setting.
Mantic are meerly covering a gap in the market, perfectly reasonable business strategy, taking a slice of someone elses pie may not seem ethical, but it happens all the time and it’s called competition, without it the market will stagnate and you will have to pay whatever GW want you too as they’d have a monopoly, now you get a choice, what’s wrong with that? Mantic may or not last or provide the competition that Privateer Press are but what they are doing is perfectly reasonable.
Nor is it easy, you have to design miniatures, pay some one to sculpt them, pay someone to paint them, advertise & market it, put up a web site, find someone with faith in you to finance all of this plus probably invest every penny you have and every moment you have to work on it, get people to do artwork and get it all made and out there and then hope people buy it.
What’s so easy?
Mantic going sci-fi? Of course they are, that’s a no brainer, the sci-fi versions of Warhammer and Hordes are more popular then the fantasy, so it’s a larger potential market.
I bought every WD up to about issue 100…sadly by then the best mag (as you say) was ruined
Competition? Come on. A wargame is competition. Pure and simple(look at Warmachine and Hordes, they are doing great financially too) , you dont have to go and rip off the races/troop choices(lets not forget Khaos Dwarves), then get the same guy who wrote the rules for Warhammer do the rules for yours. Thats purely unethical. If you wanna support Mantic buy their stuff, I dont mind but for gods sake if you really wanna support a company support it to its fullest.
You kinda do. As the owner of a game company who has an original IP I can tell you that the majority of people that talked to us at conventions WANTED generic fantasy/sci fi. People don’t want new and unique. They want more of the same.
Look at D&D, Warhammer, Warcraft, Dragon Age, etc. It’s all the same. Look at the movie industry with all of the remakes. That’s what people want. You may not agree with Mantic’s tactics, but this is what the market will support so financially it’s a good move. It bugs me too, but it is what it is.
As to a Mantic sci fi game the idea sounds cool, but that concept art looks like total crap. Overall, I think the Mantic stuff looks good, but I’d rather pay more and stick with GW as their quality is better and I like their games. If Mantic came out with a killer ruleset and cools minis for a sci fi game, I would check it out. But if they stick with the Thunder Tank and some of those other designs, forget it.
Totally agree. I really dont understand it but thats how people is.
As much as I like Warhammer Fantasy I really which Warmachine gets a boost out of this price increase GW has put on their products. Great game and great company. And for Mantic, I hope they realize soon what they are doing.
You keep mentioning Khaos Dwarves. It was a joke. A tongue in cheeK to GW sort of thing. OBVIOUSLY they knew from the start they couldn’t have that name. It was a Joke. Ronnie Bloody worked in GW for Years so I think he knows better than you what hes able and not able to do.
And I’m sure Mantic will create some sort of new Race eventually. They are just getting the basics in place. Humans, Orks Elves, Dwarves, Etc. You know, the races pretty much every Fantasy game/novel/world has.
NO! GW invented Orks, Elves, Dwarves and Humans! I’LL SUE YOU!
Agreed.
Dwarfs in space…hell yeah!
http://www.brueckenkopf-online.com/?p=33328
That looks like Halo.
Seems like everything is 40K or Halo these days.
That amuses me as I think Halo looks a bit like Starship Troopers the animated show 😉
Hmmm 40k…thats like Starship troopers, Aliens, Manga, etc
**Troll mode off***
Ok what happened with my PP comment…never mind
repeated:
I think PP started off as making stuff for DnD and that built them up enough to move into minis…. I like PP and Im not surprised they are profitable as some of their figs prices make me want to cry as well 😉
I hope PP doesnt get more expensive as I may have to bitch re them as well 😉
Privateer Press started out making making minis for their OWN RPG called Iron Kingdoms, not DnD.
Wrong. They started making modules for the d20 System which was compatible with D&D 3rd Edition. Granted it featured their own setting, Iron Kingdoms, but they owe everything they have to Wizards of the Coast and the Open Gaming License.
@theharrower Yes your correct it was d20 rpg stuff i was recalling
D20 isn’t DND, it is a generic rules system. No Dwarfs, no Elves, just a rules template. My point is PP developed their background from scratch. THEY NEVER MADE DND MINIS, fact.
WRONG… Tell me what d20 is? is it D&D? WRONG!!!!!!
Its a free rules system which you can implement your lore/world to make you OWN RPG.
They owe them nothing. Its was a free license and they had to go trough the whole process of inventing and creating a whole universe and characters and designing everything. Now thats something to admire, not what Mantics does, which is copy Warhammer then a few weeks after selling their bastard copies they put a vague fluff/story on their site. YAWN!!!
I never claimed they made dnd minis, i thought they started doing dnd rpg stuff but ive must have recalled incorrectly as i do recall the d20 rpg Iron Kingdoms stuff. Again i think the point is that PP wouldnt exsist without WotC doing the OGL d20 system…a popular game engine allowing new firms to come into being (ironically doing so well, it eats market share from the no1 rpg..debatable im sure)
Anyway i see some people are going nuts on the negative thumbs so i guess the flame war is kicking off….
Dude, I’ve talked to Matt Wilson and the Privateer Press guys on numerous occasions at conventions in the past. He’ll tell you the same thing. If it wasn’t for Wizards of the Coast and the OGL, Privateer Press wouldn’t exist.
And you’re confusing two different things. Privateer Press was an RPG company first. They invented all of the background and everything for Iron Kingdoms because that is where their roots started. You need all of that with an RPG.
If Privateer Press started as a miniature company first like Mantic is doing, you’d have the same scenario in reverse. Mantic doesn’t have a huge world and a sprawling background and IP because they thought it would be cool to make miniatures. You don’t flesh out an entire world to release a bunch of plastic elves.
I admire your passion on this, but your perspective is totally stilted.
The D20 system and the OGL (Open Gaming Licence) are not a free system, they are are an open system (there is a massive distinction) which allows the existence of Pathfinder. Which I imagine you aren’t a fan of, since it continues in the vein of taking something great that was badly abused by corporate measures and trying to make it work.
One of the reasons the OGL was rescinded was when Wizards realized that companies like Privateer were making as almost much money out of D&D as they were. That and all the third party crap. And the clunky rules.
I AM SO HOPING MANTIC GIVES IT A SOLID GO 🙂
Somebody give “battlefoam” a call I need a standard load out for my p.a.c.k. 1520
that holds this game right here Babe 🙂
Mantic gives you more bang for your buck and the quality is top shelf…
Looking deeper at the picture, it does sort of look like an modernization of the Space Marine.
Big guns and shoulder pads, etc.
Interested to see the rules.
I like all of these designs, much to my surprise.
Halftrackdemondog still looks like the thundercat tank to me though. …not that that’s a bad thing. Actually, a thundercat-like faction would blow my mind.
i agree i think a space cat or fantasy cat race would be fantasic (but would wing commander or red dwarf sue them) just think of how many colour schemes possible from tigers lepords etc
yes…the bbc would sue…this is mine…this is mine..thats mine…but not this bit, i dont want that…but all this other stuff is mine.
Some kilrathi would be cool (sp?)
It really annoys me when people call this all stealing from so and so. At the end of the day did Gw invent any of the designs for the vampires completely from scratch? No, sillyness. Same with dwarfs.
This all comes down to people not realising that JRR Tolken did not invent fantasy. The Lord of the Rings ect. were a homage to existing middle-english and old english texts. Anyone who says that they are his creation does not have the full facts.
Same with fantasy ect. look at the sci-fi writers of the 1950-60s for fully developed ideas very similar to the fluff you see these days.
Most of the GW rule sets were a combination of the old historical war games of the past and the influences that DnD put on the market. GW were not the first they were only the most successful. This attempt to sue or even talk of legal action is just stupid.
The buisness plan is obviously to take GW’s market. If they represent a true threat GW will have to adjust its tactics in order to deal with this issue. Even if you think GW can do no wrong the fact remains that it can only be good for consumers.
As usual mantic’s designs look like quality ones that are a good solid basis to built a more individual model range on in the future. At the end of the day they have to do their basic troops ect. before they try to move on to more defining models and rules.
Can you tell me with a straight face that Mantic are not taking all of their products a que from Games Workshop? Games Workshop creates stories/fluff for their games so they can make their miniatures, they invest money in a creative department so they can design how they will create their minis, their aesthetics and so on. BUT Mantic saved money on all of that since all they had to do was just have a look at what Games Workshop has done so they could just make a “sketch” altering their aesthetics. All they have done is look at Games Workshops army books and design the same troop choices with their style so people could buy the ones they do to play Warhammer. Does Mantic Honestly promotes to its fullest their game? Come one.
Mantic needs to stop this shenanigans and start growing some pairs and take some decisions for themselves and make their own stuff. Now they make a Sci-fi game, thats cool, oh but lets make fantasy races in space just like Warhammer 40,000 now thats creative!!!
Frankly, using “Games Workshop” and “creative” in the same sentence is a bit of a stretch, isn’t it? They make beautiful sculpts and have some great art, but look at 40k:
Space Marines = Space Imperials
Space Orks = Space Orks
Necrons = Space Undead
Tau = Space Japanese
Eldar = Space Elves
The list goes on. There are many games out there with truly unique character races and tropes. Generally, no one buys them. Mantic is just jumping on the same bandwagon that GW jumped on when they started.
BoW Adam
I suppose it’s the times we live in, but most people won’t have seen the parallels between the Space Marines and Mobile Infantry (from the book, before you philistines jump on me), the Tyranids and the Bugs, the Hive cities and Metropolis, the Genestealers and the Xenomorphs, or the sacrifice of psykers in the golden throne and Freder’s vision of Moloch from Metropolis. People seem to just assume eveything GW writes is original.
And, of course, Dune.
And Michael Moorcock’s Chaos pantheon.
Konrad Curze, Lion’el Johnson, Eldar (a term from Tolkein), the list goes on. The Tau are the most original element of 40k and even then they are so anime inspired as to be at odds with the Gothic elements overriding everything else.
Games Workshop have only seen so far by standing on the shoulders of giants.
isnt there a quote somewhere about all new ideas are theft cos nothing new can be invented, all stuff is just a new take on whats gone before
It appears that some of you guys are missing the point , allow me to insert a few expansive thoughts here…
To accuse mantic of unfair business practices is pure loony tune material- A Dwarf is a Dwarf-Elf is an Elf… ETC
Somebody needs to poke GW in the Butt there way out of control, I mean poorly thought out and written Codex’s and rule sets . That become ever more dense and impossible to manage
Plastic that requires blood type upon purchase and the prices are now on a yearly rise.
They have a really repulsive and arrogant attitude towards fan sites and independent dealers -The list is huge of those they have really beat up bad…
WHY ?
Because there GW , Well they need to flounder a bit or atleast long enough to change how they treat people.
Look I have a good chunk of mantic stuff. its great to paint and proxy with as well. This company, Fantasy Flight and Privateer Press have alot going for them.
Just to name a few…
With the ever present vulgar display of blissful ignorance handed out by GW. Its only a matter of time before they fall. I would like to support other companies in the here and now. To prevent the caving in of the hobby as a whole. Due to the above listed reasons 🙂
Thanx for reading
To ignore the obvious blantant marketing of Mantic as an alternative model line for Warhammer is pure loony tune material. I say your defending of Mantic in that regard is the bliddful ignorance.
blissful*
We need edit buttons in here…
I love the miss-spell -LOL LOL
Look I’m kinda past the flame wars thing…
I was more aimed at all the things you failed to mention or address concerning the actions of GW…
Another thing that would be awesome that just hit me is all those people who are bent on only GW that like being tooled by GW will ultimately sink with that ship as well.
Should I start pouring out my forty ounce now or hold off a bit
Represent 🙂
Dude, you started the name calling (I just used the same terms you used), so get of that high horse before you fall face first.
I am no GW fan, their business practices and ethics reek, but I don’t turn a blind eye when other hump on other’s IP to try to sell their own just because that IP’s owner has bad ethics themselves. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
Pour it up, maybe you’ll see things more clearly.
And what’s wrong with that? GW is a game company, I’d still have to buy their books and supplements to play their game, wouldn’t I? Maybe I just choose to use a different model line. What does that matter? I don’t understand why people are defending poor little Games Workshop, the 800-pound gorilla in the industry, from the evil start-up, Mantic Games. If you don’t like their figures, then you should definitely not buy them.
BoW Adam
And you dont get the point. GW is exactly as you say, I wont argue. But they are STILL FOR THE LOVE OF GOD making money out of Games Workshop without making that much of an effort.
“Look I have a good chunk of mantic stuff. its great to paint and proxy with as well. ”
“I would like to support other companies in the here and now.”
My point, you bought (and not just you, allot of other people do it) Mantic minis to play Warhammer, thats really supporting something you like?(Warhammer, I mean)
whats is your point? it seems mainly that you are pissed that people like GW games but are not willing to pay their prices. Supply and demand. Mantic are only supplying what is missing from the market
You think I’m pissed? I am at GW, thats why I instead of making a 400 dollar investment in an Empire army will now invest it on Warmachine armies. I love the lore of Warhammer, trustme I love it, but I cant argue that their business practices are horrible, as are Mantics. I have 7 Warhammer Fantasy Army and 2 Armies for 40k, so trust me when I say I know how much it hurts a price rise. But I too understand that If I like something I have to support it. So thats why I made the choise not to buy Empire and just wait for new releases for my other armies and still support the game. Now I will be getting into Warmachine more that what I was hoping for, I got 2 armies from Mantic and I intend to use them for Kings of War with my girl and thats the reason I bought them, to support Mantic. But release after release they keep showing their true face.
I hear on a few points but where do you really draw the line at, is all that I am saying…
I wish GW was different and not bank rolling us so hard. I mean there’s talk of 6th edition and it keeps rising. @monly you make good points. However Mantic is not jacking the tag up that’s all. I dont really care if they are locking horns with GW or not.
Plus I have a hardtime believing whatever sales pitch there using is actually working as opposed to producing affordable mini’s to game with.
The whole reason we are even having this little pep talk is because the economy still sux and this is another price increase that no one can really afford to pay… From GW
When you say no one can take, you will soon realize people is still buying from them. Still you may not afford, but when you say no one you better back up that statement. I certainly can afford it, but I wont, and I wont run to Mantic because of it, I will run to Mantic for Kings of War and not Warhammer. Good way to support something you like. Seriously I dont care what you buy. You wont change the act Mantic is making money out of GWs products. Buy whatever you want, I DONT CARE.
I am just giving my opinion and backing it up whenever someone gives me the dumb speech of:
“They are fighting the big kid on the block”
“I dont care they copy warhammer as long as they are affordable”
“I cant afford GW products so I’ll buy Mantic ones”
Because I am right, like it or not, I am right. They do leach and copy Games Workshop stuff and drive their sales from them and their marketing campaign is driven out of buying from them for “other” games (Warhammer) at affordable prices. And its so unethical it sickens me. But I dont care what you guys do, I just hate the business practices Mantic are implementing themselves.
“Because I am right, like it or not, I am right.”
You hear that? thats the sound of all your credibility flying out the door. If people are right they don’t need to state that they are. You sound like a small child throwing a tantrum.
mantic takes a pop at GW lol
Quoted from there newsletter ‘First, while some (ahem!) companies are raising their prices – we are selling a few overstock items cheap!’
You may have missed their blog post where they mentioned they’ll still ship to the southern hemisphere as well.
I’m sure everyone at Mantic has been giggling gleefully at GW’s antics this week.
A lot of ex GW people now run companies of their own…Ronnie in his Interview with BoW struck me as someone who loved GW but left and is upset with which direction the ship is now sailing in. He knows how much stuff costs and how much people want to pay so he has a company that can fill that hole.
GW is making it easy for everyone else….expensive, aggresive official stores, shipping embargo, new rules that dont really fix issues with rules, old hands like me getting the same ol stuff so often ive had enough etc etc
yeah i got that from the interview bow had with him and was quite disappointed that bow didnt ask steve about what he thought of the way gw was being run but i guess if they did they wouldnt have got the interview
I’m ok with this 😀 I’d love to see some sci-fi stuff from mantic, despite my love for Dwarves and Orcs, sci-fi, especially sci-fantasy, is what does it for me. Bring it on Mantic!
At the end of the day it’s all business and if I was in Mantic’s position I’d do the the same thing. If GW didn’t keep raising their prices it wouldn’t be worthwhile for a competitor to make a cheaper product – but they have so guess what, Mantic appears! Oh, and while we’re at it – Avatars of war and Gamezone (those last two don’t even have games, they just make miniatures that fit perfectly with warhammer and good ones at that).
Now I don’t have any of Mantic’s miniatures (yet) but seeing GW is trying to lock me out from buying overseas (a good laugh if anything) makes Mantic’s miniature even more attractive. So don’t even start on business ethics. GW charge us in Australia 90% to 100% more than what the USA or UK customers pay and it’s not because of government taxes, it’s because they can.
GW also isn’t innocent on the coping front either. I don’t know if any of you noticed how much the Dread knight looks like the walker from Matrix Revolutions so here is a reminder
http://www.flickr.com/photos/23540083@N02/2246180209/
and in the Tomb kings book there is a character that was buried with scarabs and now that he’s back from the dead he can turn into scarabs and move under the sand. For those who don’t get that one just watch ‘The Mummy’.
It’s all business, GW could lower their prices to knock out competitors but they won’t so more will appear.
Avatars of War and Gamezone, I agree. But Mantic’s sales campaign its extremely driven to the Warhammer player. Oh and if you missed out, Avatars of War have a game 😉
Well its all in the pot- I will just say that I like Mantic and there stuff is great especially for the working class. Not everyone has the luxury of living in there parents basement. I will continue to buy there stuff and wish them the best. Also noteworthy mention is that those who are in the industry know that GW is bleeding customers badly. Going back to the last price increase. To the point that outfits like Privateer Press can not keep up with the ground swell of business.
Sure some of it is due to Warmachine Hordes being a really cool game. However I would suspect the majority of it is the very thing you see listed here in this thread.
I will exit this thread due to the lack of constructive criticism by saying I will continue to cheer on the other guys like mantic with my wallet. Let’s see who wins 🙂
Yeah, Avatars of War does have a game, but it took them how long to put one out? I guess you missed out, Mantic has a game too. What point is that supposed to prove? Secondly, let’s do a little test. Put up pictures of GW figs, Mantic figs, and Avatars of War figs. Ask a person not familiar with them what’s what. Whose figures are going to be confused for GWs? Not Mantics.
I your argument is about how Mantic is riding on the coattails of GW than I believe you need a remedial class in business. The cola wars is prime example of various companies vying for consumers by branding themselves as better than the others. Walk in to a grocery store in the US and you have the mainstream of Coke and Pepsi. However, there is also the generic store brand that passes off as Coke and Pepsi except cheaper. Its not only for sodas either. I went in several days ago to a local grocery store and they were offering a popular brand of microwave pizza and the store brand for samples claiming that the sample was just as good but cheaper. It really isn’t bad business ethics for Mantic to subscribe to such means. You can see it many places. For more example, iPhones vs Android phones, iPads vs Android tablets, Microsoft software vs other software. The list goes on and on. I am curious as to why you are so adamant that what Mantic is doing as unethical? Ral Partha (or who ever owns them these days), Reaper minis and a myriad list of companies could try to advertise the same way however they don’t. That decision is upon them. Maybe I’m being negative but remember that the company is interested in improving sales in such a tight industry and only profits show how well a company is doing. However I do hope that Mantic is doing what they are for the gamers out there who want an alternative, whether it’s for an existing game or for Mantic’s own game. Anyway, that’s my two cents for now.
From the cover art of this i can see that mantic is at least trying to make their scifi game unique.
bla bla bla space dwarves i know. But from the cover art those are high tech suits of armor and ships. More akin to halo or mass effect.
This is good. I am starting to get sick of grimdark anyway. I still have my novels and some of the minis, and i have dark heresey, deathwatch, and rogue trader. If im feeling nostalgic ill get the guys together to for a game of that. 40k is very special to me because, like for many of us, it was the beginning of miniature gaming in my life (well technically that and battletech). But it’s time for me to move on. Ive been looking into mercs or infinity anyway. Ill give this game a serious look too.
THE COVER ART IS A FAKE DONE BY A MANTIC FAN AS AN APRIL FOOL’S JOKE! That is not the cover art for Mantic’s Sci-Fi game. The creator has admitted it was a joke.
I’m down with anything that jettisons grimdark, and Mantic may, but they haven’t yet.
(Now, what would be really funny is if Mantic could make that the cover of their game.)
monly is a trolllllllllllllllllllllllllll!!!!!!
@monly don’t you have anything better to do with your live than lead an Anti-Mantic crusade on this topic? Okay we get it. you’ve made your point at least 15 times. Give it a rest. Your not going to do anything but Piss people off with your constant Rantings. lets give others a go at what THEY think about this possible new Sci-fi game. Go create a topic post about Mantics ‘unethical’ behavior in the forums where people will go to if they want to see it.
Wait a minute Guys I think I just had a brief moment of brilliance here…
What if GW is doing all this crazy stuff as listed here in this thread to break there own monopoly up. Because they realize that the hobby and there game in its present form is in fact unsustainable.
Hold on think about it for a second People at GW aren’t stupid so lets give them the benefit for a moment. What better way to save the whole shooting match than to create a volume of sub standard and totally stupid power moves. Like what we have seen in the past year. Its almost like the CEO of Games Workshop is on his knees naked screaming at somebody over at Mantic . To whip Him with a wet towel “SNAP” OH Beat Me I Say !!!
All for the love of the hobby and to ultimately save there own game. By opening the door to competition. WoW talking about taking one for the home team…
OK- Bull Shit GW is freaking greedy and doing it to themselves, and I find myself regretting at times the fact that I smoked way to much Pot in High School 🙂
Bloody hell, monopoly and self-destruction, you might have a point here.
It’s about the only thing from God-Emperor of Dune they haven’t used already…
Loooong time lurker, let’s see how this goes….
The problem isn’t that Monly is a troll, the problem is that he’s trolling the wrong people.
Ramon and Lester here (I lurk on Youtube and Mantic’s forums, I don’t have to be a stalker to know your names 🙂 ) believe in the ‘purity of wargaming’ from what I can deduce – that is, the idea that cool minis and rules alone will sell a company well enough to rise through the ranks.
This, as we should all know, is not how it goes.
Mantic, as Ronnie has said time and again in interviews, is a toy soldier company. That means less specific models for multiple uses to sell to the most people.
What do most people play, in the sci-fi tabletop genre?
Think about how well Weird War 2 stuff sells in 28mm as well, since it has rivets and big guns. Infinity has FANTASTIC minis and rules, but how well were Corvus Belli doing before the theme week here? Also Infinity is small-scale actions, not mass skirmishes. Partly for the whole ‘secret war’ fluff but also for plausibilty – in high technology settings you don’t have mass battles, you have Exterminatus.
Mantic have seen a gap in the market for these sizes of battle, and they know the aesthetic people like.
So, Monly, you are whining at the wrong people. You need to shame wargamers into trying something new, so Mantic will want to make it, not shame the company.
LOL LOL LOL- Dude you rock
Morning all any word on the youtube conspiracy concerning BOW
just asking off to my kids soccer game cheers 🙂
I like that Mantic have the balls to even consider going into large sci-fi war gaming 🙂
As far as sketches go they’re good & I’m sure we’ll see more original releases from them soon. Ultimately the hobby’s about playing games, while background may inform design aesthetics it does nothing else than add story – no matter how good that story is. With time I’m sure Mantic will flesh out background but they are a company who makes toy soldiers & this should be their primary concern.
Games Workshop are arrogant if they think their IP is invulnerable, it isn’t. Anyone with any knowledge knows that Games Workshop have spent close to three decades building their fantasy and sci-fi worlds, as well as developing all their concepts & product on fantastical, historical, mythological & even philosophical archetypes. All these archetypes cannot be copyrighted, which is why GW haven’t been able to do anything to Mantic, Avatars of War etc…they deserve to be punished for their arrogance & for disenchanting the spirit of the war gaming hobby.
Mantic are doing the right thing & pursuing the right policies in their business if they want to be successful, with every year Games Workshop is effectively handing out ultimatum’s to its customers. The fact that Alessio and even Rick have left Games Workshop means the company is going in the wrong direction – no one would leave a job they love, much less a legacy they’ve created, if everything was all good.
I’ll be saving some money for September then 🙂
I dont get the argument, Mantic have a fantasy wargame, its setting is fairly generic, but then so is warhammer, thats pretty much why the models are interchangeable between games, taking the odd pop at the market leader doesnt seem like world ending stuff to me, its not like the Mantic guys dont know the people at GW, I suspect people here take it much more seriously than those in the middle of it, where a lot is tongue in cheek.
And I can’t for the life of me think of a scenario where, for us as hobbyists, more choice is a bad thing.
GW have annoyed a lot of people this last week, some of it is a storm in a teacup in my view (switch toi resin and the price rises for that, assuming its decent resin that isn’t carcinogenic in dust form), but some of it is very valid.
The whole Antipodean market issue is one the deserve to lose huge market share for, not just for what they’ve done tot he uk suppliers, but for GW OZ charging over double the UK/US prices in the first place.
The other issue on the ‘another sci fi game’ topic we are supposed to be talking of here, is 6th edition 40k.
Its in the works, we all know it, having something else out there competing means they cant half arse it, they have to do it well, which is something they havent really done since what, 1998 really, the last two have had plenty of issues, I want GW to make the best game they can, and I think right now they need someone breathing down their necks for it to happen, so I congratulate Mantic, I hope they make a game I can enjoy too.
I’ll leave you with a scenario we dont want.
GW have no real competition, they take the lead from 8th Fantasy, and 6th 40K becaomes about bigger squads, requiring more miniatures.
On top of the price rises.
Scaremongering? Perhaps. Its also commercially the best move for a monopoly to make.
Ugh, not another “monly” thread. Seriously dude, did mantic run over your dog or something?
You have posted literally hundreds of posts with multiple paragraphs across every single BoW topic and every single mantic youtube video on the entire internet. I really don’t get it. You must have spent hours typing and typing the same thing. If you’re genuinely suffering from OCD or some other sort of mental illness, then I apologise, but other than that I can’t see why anyone would do this.
I am utterly sick of seeing anything you have to say, and so is everyone else. You have nothing new to add, it’s just the same point “mantic are unethical scum for copying GW” thing.. over and over and over and over and over again.. We heard you the last several hundred times you said exactly the same thing. We get it, you don’t like them.
You don’t even buy Mantic or Games Workshop. You don’t play play Kings of War or Games Workshop games. Can you please just leave the rest of us who do alone so we can actually comment on this stuff without having to deal with you spamming several pages with exactly the same comments?
So has Ronnie replied to this “leaking”?????????
Probably with enthusiastic giggling.
As CEO of Mantic, and as a guy with a long background in marketing, I suspect the leak was less accidental than we might think. That’s all supposition, mind you, but Ronnie has been running a pretty good mini company so far and making subtle leaks for a long time.
nothing subtle about the leak 😉
i read the latest mantic mail 2day and it had a link to the last turn 8(bugger i keep missing it) and he said something like they must have spies at our hq
Just want to make one more general comment on this and then I’m bowing out of the conversation as I have a blog to work on and minis to paint. I find it funny that people are ripping on Mantic for releasing miniatures that can be marketed to the Warhammer player base because they are “stealing” GWs hard earned money.
Spare me. It’s called business and how the world works. How many iPad and iPhone knockoffs are there? How many companies made cars after Ford did? How many computer companies are out there? Thing is, Mantic puts out a REALLY solid product for a good price. I’m not their market as I’m happy with GW as much as I hate the prices, but their games and miniatures are the best bar none IMO so that’s what I buy.
Is Mantic riding on GWs coat tails? Sure they are in a way, but that is no reason to slam them for not being creative and saying no work goes into what they do. Creating miniatures and doing manufacturing and all of that takes a herculean effort. If anyone thinks it takes no effort trying running a gaming company open your own.
I know from experience. When you are a start up it’s work 24/7. Not sure if Ronnie has a family, but I’m sure they would be he best to tell you. It makes me crazy when I see people slamming small publishers. I’ve been there, it’s tons of long hours, scary as hell, and more work than you can possibly imagine.
People are expecting a small company like Mantic to have the resources to create a huge IP and that takes DOZENS of people. Highly talented and creative people that don’t come cheap and ask for tons of money. Mantic is using Alessio Cavatore and Jake Thornton to design their games and that’s bad? Did I suddenly walk into opposite world?
If Mantic didn’t care, they’d have Joe Blow designing their stuff and getting a game out there just to have one. Here we have some of the best designers in the industry working with them and Mantic is getting slammed for it? Mantic obviously has a lot of passion for what they are doing and it shows and I respect them for it.
This is exactly what the BOW guys talked about on Turn 8 Live. As a community, we need to support the small publishers and embrace what they are doing. If you don’t like it, fine. Don’t buy their stuff. But don’t sit here and accuse hard working passionate people of stealing another companies money and riding on their coattails as that’s just a bunch of crap.
Lastly, I think a history lesson is in order especially with the Warhammer IP. Do yourself a favor and start reading Elric and look at how much GW cribbed off Michael Moorcock for Warhammer. The White Lions of Chrace, the Eight Pointed Star, all of the Chaos fluff, pretty much the entire Warhammer World is a big rip off. Just because GW is the 800 pound gorilla now and they have the money to spend on development and involving their IP into something more unique doesn’t mean they didn’t do the exact same thing that Mantic is doing now that some people hate so much.
Best of luck to you Mantic! I’m not a Customer (yet), but I respect what you guys are doing. Just do everyone a favor and lose that concept art.
Sir, I salute you !
Bravo for that wonderful back-to-reality post.
BoW Romain
Thanks man. I love the videos and what you guys do for the community. I hope you get everything with YouTube sorted.
i love ronnie. the guy cracks me up.
Anyway, i trust BoW will be doing a Galaxy of War week? (if thats really the games name still)
Oookayba then….
Is Mantic deliberately targeting GW’s market share? You betcha! Good luck to them, says I! GW is making some… odd decisions of late, and a wakeup call may be the best thing for them.
Are dwarfs, elves, and undead generic? Dang right – Warhammer is pretty much a generic fantasy game. They use the same tropes as D&D and Tolkien. They may not WANT folks using other companies minis, but, hey, a dwarf is a dwarf, a skeleton is a skeleton, and a pointy eared git is a thing filled with bullet, err… I mean an elf is an elf.
Was Warhammer itself a copy of other games?… Murkier. Chainmail definitely beat Warhammer to the market. D&D beat Warhammer to the market, and helped CREATE that market. Without the old beige box D&D fantasy wargaming would have remained an almost microscopic niche of wargaming.
Does having less expensive alternates to GW’s armies make it easier to get into the hobby? Again, not much doubt – the ONLY reason that I picked up the most recent edition of Warhammer was because of the availability of the Mantic Dwarfs. (So in this case, GW rode MANTIC”S coattails. 😛 )
As for non generic critters…
Did Warhammer copy some of the non generic critters from D&D and other sources? Again, no doubt – take a look at a Glabrezu. Look at the Bondage Cow…. Yeah. Take a look at the early sketches of the Beasts of Nurgle and the D&D Carrion Crawler…. Yeah. The Vrock and the Lord of Change… Yeah. Seeing a pattern here?
GW’s ideas are not as original as you might hope, without even going into Moorcock or Tolkien. (Funny how much that big daemon wielding a whip looks like a Balrog, Ain’t it? Or was that a Balor?)
And D&D stole the Rust Monster design from a cheap plastic toy, so the great circle of life continues….
Complaining that someone is copying GW is well… kinda silly, eh?
my brother in law worked for gamesworkshop over 25 years ago when they only had the 1 shop in Hammersmith and was in the meeting when they had the discussion with their lawyers to whether or not they would be sued for stealing the IP from starship troopers (power armour) and The forever war (dreadnought armour). He still maintains allegedly (according to him) that the company directly lifted these ideas and now have the audacity to stream out IP protection letters to ideas that were not theirs in the first place. ALLEGEDLY
@Morly.
I actually prefer Mantics miniatures to GW’s daft looking Heroic Scale. However, I prefer the Warhammer ruleset.
I’ll use the models I like with the system I enjoy most – the basic idea of table top miniature gaming for years now.
thats a good idea ive been thinking of using the some of the infindy rules mostly the order and movement for necromunda as i think they would add a lot more fun to the game
this is just a funny video but monly wont llike it or find it funny
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnsoawOt2-Q
No I do not like it. Is there something wrong with that?
not at all after all if every1 in the world liked the same thing everytime what a dull and boring place this would be
This guy is green, Gamesworkshop invented green. They should sue him.
its nice to see it, and guessing Beast of Wars already have seen the poster in the following link
[url]http://www.gwhobby.net/forum/index.php?topic=11678.0[/url]
Its on a dutch site but the poster says enough.
way to go mantic ! Good to hear you are considering/planning sci-fi release. Concept art doesnt look that nice to be honest (although I can already see potential of doing some Ork converting 😉 – i do like the humvee though 😉 – I would do what you do quite good so far and listen to your fans before you release something, but all in all- good luck guys and i will be watching that space attentively!
You can argue that Mantic is copying GW but you can also argue that Mantic is copying the source material GW is copying. GW has always borrowed and copied heavily from other sources, for decades.
You know what… I hope they are trying to copy GW for the simple fact that Maybe hobbyist will relise that they can actauly buy a Dwarf army for £50 instead of £200. “you cant play them in store as they are not GW models” you say, erm….. ok, I’ll just go and play at my mates house where I can have a beer while not being pestered by staff that beg you to buy stuff (these guys used to be called HOBBY EXPERTS), or I’ll go to one of the many hobby centres. I also hope that Mantic sell so many of these products that it starts to make a hole into GW slice of the hobby pie, so the will finally relise that there models are a tad EXPENSIVE!!!
Any of you people remember when you would walk into a GW as a kid and play on really good made up table tops with bunkers for Orks and tombs for undead… Dont see that anymore, why?? I found out a few weeks ago.. I was playing a 2v2 on a 6-4 I was playing with a GW staff member against my mate and his pal.. as usual there was not enough scenery in the store front to use. So the member of staff went “give me a min I got a good stuff down stairs” went away and in a few moments came back with amazing hand built Ork and Sister of Battle scenery which must of taken some time to make.. I was ideal as we where tau and sisters and they where Orks.. Not long after we set up the scenery did the GW staff get called to the side by his boss… moments later he came back not happy and took the scenery away back down stairs…. We played and lost (tau with no buildings to get up on = loss) and went for a beer once there he explained that as it was not “official” GW scenery we could not use it….
“OH MY GOD”!! I replied, what a stupid excuse, but then it came to me… GW state that they are here in the store to help you paint, build etc. I have my self asked for tips on green stuff as I have never used it before and had a model which I felt needed it. I ask the GW staff for help on it and they said I would have to purchase the greenstuff before I could be taught. I then pointed to the green stuff on there table. “staff only”..
Away to have a cup of cha and chill for a min or so before I tear up and eat my White Dwarf.
GW used to do in store building tips for figures and terrain…but that was, i guess, back in 2nd edition days. It was about growing a community and helping you get value from your goods….. then something changed and i started to feel harrassed and unwelcome at my GW.
I stopped going to official stores, well actually i did go but took my GF…it so freaked out the store that they forgot to harass me 😉
i’m a big fan of mantic and am very much looking forward to them branching out in to sci-fi.
I think its a real shame that some people don’t realise how beneficial competition is for all parties involved not least of all us.
Well good job people, everyone of my comments is getting thumbed down getting my karma from 50+ to 3, whether it had any opinionated content to warrant it or not. Guess having a differing opinion riles up the masses.
Your Karma looks ok to me 😉
Has Darrell been playing with Karma cheese and tossed it my way? 😉
THUMBS DOWN!!
wow i cant believe you or any1else really gives a sh*t about karma rating it means nothing unless your name is EARL
So Mantic might have a new sci-fi game that sounds great why all this talk about GW. Just think about how cool it would be to have a full on big scale Sci-fi war game. I hope the have people driving big robots!!
Hopefully it will have the same kind of fast and concise rules as KoW.
Stability is an issue with 40k. It get’s wobblier and wobblier with each new codex…
OH MY GOD! can’t believe I read the whole thread. Geez Monly, you have issues. Are you on GW’s pay role? Why do you care so much what Mantic’s doing? It’s called free enterprise. You’re upset because you didn’t think of it 1st? Keep spending your 35 pounds/dollars for a box of 16 troops. I’ll take my 35 dollars/pounds and buy half an Army from mantic. P.S. : Ronnie Renton!!!!!! if you had long hair and boobs, I would marry you!!!!