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May 18, 2012 by warzan
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When a writhing mass of Tyranids is charging towards you, surely you should be able to Stand and Shoot? Darrell and Warren take a look at something that may make it a possibility.
Finally… You do know I’ve been waiting for this all day, do you?!
I’d go with everything but heavy. I don’t think BS1 though, more like -2 BS
I’d also recon that only the guys who get to do this are the guys you charge, so no Darrell, no 50+ guardsmen, just the ones who’d be able to hit you in combat.
Counter-attack would probably give you the choice.
What I don’t like in this rumour is the fact that it decreases the chance of us being able hitt someone with pistol in CC, like in Heresy 40k.
I think the 50 guardsmen that Darrell is refering to would be a combined squad (blob squad). In this situation all 50 are in one unit and all those with allowed weapons in range should get to fire in a charge reaction. So that could be 5 spec weapons, 5 – 10 pistols depending the number of commissars and on how the Sgts are kitted out, and if rapid fire weapons are included up to 45 lasguns (90 shots??).
So if you charge a 50 guardsman blob squad you could get 90 lasgun, 5 bolt pistol and 5 plasma pistol shots on the way in or even worse take out 10 lasgun shots and add 5 melta gun or 10 plasma gun shots or a whole boat load of flamer hits. Hmmm, I will really need to rethink my IG strategy and army lists.
Yes, I know what he’s reffering to. With ‘in combat’, I mean, everyone within 2″ B2B.
Link this rule to the first one you revealed the other day and the charging player will have to be careful who he puts at the front of his assaulting unit, else he may lose his best cc guy before the combat. I’m liking the sound of these new rules
I think Heavy weapons that did not move in their last movement phase should get to shoot too. Thats what happens in real war. Set up a big gun and shoot anything that isn’t on your side no matter what direction it is moving.
I totally agree on that !
Actually, it’s exactly as tasty against 50 Guardsmen, since a standard Guardsmen don’t have a pistol or assault weapon.
To my mind, it would make a whole lot more sense to institute an Overwatch rule- you don’t get to shoot on the turn you go onto Overwatch, but you do get to fire with full effect against units who assault you. Maybe even apply it against enemies who come within 12″ of you: your men don’t have a clear line of sight to the Marines behind that building, but you can order them to be ready to shoot them in case they come out from behind it!
Which, incidentally, leads me to the point Darrell’s managed to completely miss- you’re not standing there like muppets while they charge you, you’ve been busy shooting them- in /your/ turn!
It depends on how the guardsmen are kitted out. In a 50 man IG unit you could have 5 meltaguns or 5 flamers + 5 Sgts with bolt pistols + up to 5 commissars with plasma pistols. Also if you allow rapid fire weapons to “stand and shoot” you could have 5 plasmaguns (10 shots) and 40 lasguns (80 shots).
Everyone in unit that is target of charge including heavy weapon guys that didn’t move able to shoot would defenetly help shooty armies and decrease my worries about close combat armies getting too much edge. Now there would also be risk in charging shooty units with close combat units instead of just reward.
this would add sooo much depth when used in conjunction with the other ‘rumoured’ rules. At the end of the day, yes, it would be scary to get flamed whilst charging BUT that flamer has probably got to be near the front so you would have been trying to shoot him in the shooting phase, its a big gamble really… sounds exciting and dramatic. We should also contemplate the future of grenades etc at this point, snare mines too…
I dont think there is ANY chance of this idea making it into a 1980s set of wargames rules like wallethammer 40K.
As a Tau player I say YES.
Though would twin-linked weapons being able to re-roll count though? thats my question.
As a Tau player I would say No. There are rumors to have unit able to charge in the turn they deepstrike and this rule will only make it worst. BS of 1 only means 1 hit per firewarrior.
I prefer as it is now. Less complicated and gives you a chance to fire with a proper BS.
Of course flamers are a different story.
Also as a tau player YES, finally something in our advantage. A few of these rules I hear about do seem to benifit the shooty army a bit. There are many parts of the rules that need further explaning though including: Rapid fire If they mooved the previous turn. An overwatch option? Although it dose bring more depth into the game. Ie send a rubbish unit in first knowing that the unit can’t shoot if already in combat etc. Lots more discussion to be had I guess
Overwatch, stand and shoot, split fire within units, move out of cc to fire the units primary weapons (the ones you paid points for to use after all) . Stand and shoot sounds good, guess if you want to get close in a game with fire arms; supress, ambush or use cover wisely. Time for more strategy in fossilhammer 40k.
I like the idea of the rule and think it fits well with the previous mentioned rule. I also think you guys are right that this rule should be a accompanied with an over watch rule which I see working in the same way but you would use your normal ballistic skill instead of BS1.
I feel the shooting unuts will line up in a two rank alignment with a zig zag coherency with the flamers and other special weapons in the back row but the formation allows you to shoot your template weapons out, this will then also protect your special weapons from the first assault.
It’s difficult to determine which weapons can or can’t fire, maybe there will be a reclassification of them.
Bringing in some form of defensive fire makes sense. But need to make sure that shooting doesn’t become too powerful. Ok dropping BS to ’1′ helps as you don’t have time to sight the target etc, hence why the normally high BS guys would become the same as an orc.
What I’d say if this happens then grenades need to be more useful, currently they just avoid a penalty, make them able to do some damage or even supress that defensive fire. That is I roll ‘x’ to pin you down with my assault grenades and then you can’t fire back.
If this opens to assault weapons Termagaunts with Devourers is going to be so fething evil! In a 10 man squad that is 30 attacks, that is 5 hits and 2-3 wounds per 10 Devgaunt.
If flamers get this then I might run a flamer every now and then.
If rapid fire weapons get this than Plasmaguns might see a resurgence but meltaguns will still be king.
Would pinning weapons force to roll for a pinning test? Image somebody tries to assault a group of fire-warriors and end up being pinned in his own turn.
That would be interesting with Orks =D
30 Shoota boys? You want to charge me and get 60 shots in the face? BS 1?! I normally shoot at 2 so not a big change. That puts you off charging me? Prepare to be charged!!! =D
£70.00 for bit of inside info Ah well you were in the land of Robin Hood
Yeah that seems a bit much for half a rumour guys… tell you what, send me a glasgow-lenton train ticket and I’ll get us the whole rulebook…. I’ll supply my own zip ties and hand towel.
woul surpressing wapeons let the enemy take cover an inch befor hes got you?
BS 1 is a bit harsh.. How hard can it be hitting something that comes running at you with a silly knife?
I’m with you on this. Point blank is like shooting at a barn wall. If anything some weapons should be an auto hit. Also I think heavy weapons should have some rule that says if not fired yet, they can when charged. Think of hamburger hill and other vital points on a battle field where assault was almost impossible due to heavy fire weapons.
I really love this rule. I play a shooty space marine army and this rule will make this a lot better choise then it is now (now you still beter just run then shoot).
About the weapon type. I would think that it is for all weapons but then I remembered something. GW said that all the codex after the tyranid codex were made to also fit the 6th edition rules. This said there were 2 weapon which I think were a bit useless before but with this rule only aplying to pistols would make a bit more viable option: the hand flamer and the infernus pistol. Both got introduced in the blood angels codex, the first codex after the tyranid codex and this would make all the space marine specalist weapons also avaliable in “pistol-format”. And think about it, the infurnes pistol would make a great defence when you are getting charged by a walker, and the hand flamer would be a great weapon against hordes of boys. I think this is the only reason what I can think about why they would make this only for pistols, but I still hope this will aply to all weapons (this would help a lot for my tau playing friend)
Maybe something along the lines of an Initiative test with your natural BS? If you pass you can fire a weapon of your choice bar a Heavy weapon. (E.g. Bolters, Pulse Rifles, Laspistols etc But not Lascannons and Missile Launchers) But, Heavy weapons can be used if the squad/model didn’t move the turn before and passes the initiative test (You can’t expect someone to run with a Heavy Bolter, plonk it down, put in the rounds and aim before the enemy is there) This gives the Tau a massive advantage in terms of firepower, but they are currently only Initiative 2 so the chances of passing is slim. Maybe if you pass you get your Natural BS if you fail it counts as BS 1?
So your ‘nid army which already struggles to be competitive and gets shot to pieces before it can assault already, is now going to have another round of shooting aimed at it? Well that’ll really help all the bug players – not.
Think on it, most people pre charge ‘nids. Since this is the case they will likely always get a shot at the opponent
Thats correct, but 40k needs a complete overhaul .. In wh40K 2nd edition you could use movement speed and cover (moving out of cover, moving between cover) to make you harder to hit. Unless this system grows and gets out of kindergarden for 6th edition im not bothering with it. Way too much cool stuff out now (like infinity) that challenges your strategic thinking.
Totally agree with that, what about chaos daemons? and other weak armour close combat armies
Yet another nail in the coffin for Hive Fleet Evil Lady Bug, but my other armies to include necron, eldar, ultramarines, and possible grey knights and blood angels could benefit from this rule. My only issue with this rule rumor so far is that it seems too incomplete to make a full analysis of the rule yet, like many of my peers have said so far what I really think this needs to be is more of an overwatch rule now that would be truly awesome.
Great… as if shooty armies already don’t have every advantage in the game. The IGO-UGO system is what it is; giving gunlines an extra round of shooting is just going to make it so much worse.
I think this rule would work really well. i think with the tyranid armys your going to see alot more stratergy where you force your opponent to face a certain way. Then try flank your cc units from the sides. I asume if you dont have line of site you cant shoot. I think the bs 1 is a good rule to show the panic of the unit after they let the oponenant get so close. It will be interesting to how the grenades work and what cause just as likely that the assalting player gets to throw grenades so should the definsive. If you have a libarian it would be interesting to see him choose between an attack or defensive power or if he gets both. It will stop the little units of only a few guys less alot less likely to want to charge a vehicle, walker or monsterous creature (if it has shooting available). It would also be interesting to see if it counts as wounds inflicted in the close combat cause it does favour the definding player to win.
An overwatch rule must be put in place if they want to make this rule part of 6th edition. Don’t you worry, I like it a lot (even though I do play Orks).
Maybe instead of shooting in YOUR shooting phase, you can declare you go on with an overwatch and then, you can shoot at the first unit charging you during your opponent’s turn! If it works like this though, I’d say, the model’s BS should be used.
I’d say the same rules apply to all of the weapon types. If you didn’t move during your turn, you still get to fire with heavy weapons. That would add a lot of strategic thinking to the game as you would always wonder about moving or not in case your opponent has something to throw at you during his turn…
I’m really liking where this is going. As some other guys have already said, this makes the other «leaked rules» less abusive. If you know you’ll get shot at, where do you put your CC monster?
As @jamesf: said, grenades should be more useful than they are at this point. A lot of unit have the option to take this or that grenade type but who cares in the current edition!?
In the far future, it’s only logical that shooting should be a lot more deadly than it is right now in W40k (even though i’m playing Orks).
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