Cult Of Games XLBS: Another One Bites the DUST! Why Doesn’t Weird World War Appeal To The Masses?
October 3, 2021 by avernos
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Finally! It’s the XLBS.
Saga is the greatest and most versatile games system on the market. If there was a weird world war version of it, it would be amazing but only because it was Saga based.
Great topic. I think the genre needs to be split into Alternative History and Weird World War. In Alternative history Germany delcares war on Poland, and the UK and France order them to leave. The USSR also invades Poland and the Allies declare War on both of them. Hitler defeats the French. The German Navy lures the British navy into the North Sea and then sinks it with the massed assaults by the Luftwaffe and submarines. Germany invades Britain and doesn’t invade the USSR until 1944 after developing an atomic weapon. They only declare war on the USA once the US is fully invested in Asia-Pacific and nukes New York in 1945. That’s more or less the story of ‘Man in the high Castle’, Fatherland and SS GB. These aren’t that hard to believe. Both Britain and Germany had jets prior to WWII but suspended research until late in the war. What if they hadn’t? What If Hitler had been killed in one of the numerous assassination plots? What if the Japanese had followed up Pearl Harbour with an invasion? All believable, all events that would have altered world history and tech levels massively.
Then you have the Weird World War ideas, Iron Skies, Dust, K47, Secrets of the Third Reich etc with Undead, Werewolves, Cthulu, aliens, mechs etc.
The silliest thing in weird world war are mechs. Walkers make no sense as they are easily disabled. A tank with a broken tread becomes a gun enplacement, a crippled mech is totally useless.
With mechs, it is somewhat difficult to proper justify there use over “normal” vehicles in the general sense, but there would be places that mechs would make more sense to use.
If we take the K47 American pondskater as an example, on most open battle fields a tank to armoured car would be better, but on a boggy or possibly mountainous area the pondskater would have the advantage of manoeuvre.
Happy Late Sunday!?!
John refers to a WW1/War of the worlds scenario. Thay tried that with “All quiet on the Martian front” a few years ago. Where’s that gone? Seems AbbyNormal games have purchased the IP or something but models etc seem a bit scarce.
https://www.beastsofwar.com/sci-fi-wargaming/martian-tripods-burst-alien-dungeon/
GHQ do a nice Wermacht 46 range which uses the tanks an equipment that both sides had in development before the war ended
Not a fan. For me Weird World War combines two things I like but together it’s not quite right. I also like fish pie and ketchup, I just don’t want them on the same plate.
Painting the original Warlord Games WW2 Brits I noted how the faces ranged from young to old, reflecting the ages of soldiers in the late war. I felt a connection with the tiny fighting men and I think shoving in Tesla coils or werewolves breaks that a little for me.
Some of the tech is cool but nah.
For the record, i do like Saga…but do find it a bit restrictive. As you said, you can roll all your dice at the start and not be able to do what you want. Also when you end up having a duel between warlords…it was very anti-climactic… But otherwise is great game with interesting mechanics
Hi XLBSer COGz.
Lol to the start.
Happy Sunday, and fashionably late.
3 great golden button winners, been following that statue build, really cool.
Two wild bore are meant to have mugged shakira?
One for all or nout for everyone.?
?Cujo?
Afternoon, keep your Dust stuff Lloydy get your self a set of Wsr without end from Two Hour Wargames, it has stats for most of Dust stuff and for post war designs.
Think your discussion hit it on head though in that most weird war goes off the rails with weirdness.
Start your world with the reason the war carries on introduce some of the what if designs and early post war stuff but for all the combatants. Use that to ground your game with initial supplements being 1947 this is new stuff that appears and then do yearly updates this is 48 etc. Once you have your grounding then do the weirder stuff that you could add as an option say aliens or Cuthulu but they are an option if that’s what a playing group wants but can be left out if not.
Don’t forget that with the history of k47, the rift tech doesn’t just appear right at the end, the war itself was changed abit with the first nuclear bomb being dropped on dresden in march 44, creating the rift that the Germans got their rifttech from.
But I tend to agree with you to a degree with having the early, mid and later war periods of weirdness,
?That’s a early war one as no extra fuel armour John.
It’s a late war M4A3. No armour on the sides because I believe the hull design gave the tank wet stowage, and larger crew hatches for the drive/assistant driver.
Ooh nice.
Sunday yet again
On the topic: Weird War isn’t a flop. It’s just tu niche I think. It’s to absurd for the historical crowd and way to serious for the grim dark crew. It’s a hybrid. And may still to close to home in real time terms.
Now on with the show!
00:00 HAAAAAAAAAAAANS! GET ZE FLAMMENWERFER!
01:20 The way @free is not looking at the camera and saying “no”… you know she’s lying 😉
16:00 Stuff in boxes…. who has anything like that *shoves some boxes under the table*
25:00 Existential crisis? Pah!
30:00 Battletech body pillow…. oO
40:30 @johnlyons shooting himself in the face XD
46:00 remembers me a bit of Jason and the Wheeled warriors
57:00 Case and point. As John said. Just noticed: why does he wear a World of Tanks cap? 😉
1:00:00 Weird War II meets the world of Fallout? Hmm….
1:20:00 There never where any flying saucers and there is nothing on the dark side of the moon…
1:28:00 3D printing weird war… meh.
What? No closing pillow talk? aaaw…..
Matilda an general gevence wheel bike.?
The problem wiht Weird War is the same that D&D has : it is forever stuck at a specific tech level and never appears to advance although realisticly it should.
This works when the ‘conflict’ only lasts a few years, because tech doesn’t get too crazy by the end as one side inevitably runs out of resources.
Once you make the conflict go on ‘forever’ the tech will affect the standard troops as well and the end result will look more like a Science Fiction setting and less like the ‘history but weird’ that it started as.
Proposed alternate timeline :
– 1939-40 : WW 2 starts
– 1943 : asteroid hits / new tech is discovered by axis forces giving them the edge to hold on
– 1944-45 : D-Day / Market garden / Bagration fail or run out of steam as the new units used by Axis are enough to stop the advance
– 1945-46 : allies get their hands on the new tech as well, D-Day v2 is a success
– 1947 : WW 2 ends for real this time
By limiting the time you don’t get the full on weirdness that an endless WW2 conflict would evolve into.
We kind of see this with 40k/AoS too, don’t we ?
New stuff gets added because there’s no in-universe reason not to do so.
More developments were made during wars @lloyd as all the weard guy’s come out an are listened to look at hobarts funnys an the swamp boat that turned the troop landing boats.
Happy Sunday,
Now go watch the greatest movie ever made.
Nooooo you can’t kill Sam fox???
This one? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sFC0V4B5Z5k https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4CvFjetZ5lQ
yes this one! Loved it.
Yup they are great mini films John.
That WWI dreadnought/military veteran suit?
Lol for the show.
The Smile High Club should be the name for the people that complete armies. ?
Lloyd. Join us. Join the Ragnarok Kickstarter club. I pledged at the small Saga warband level and already have some undead from the last Kickstarter. Will play them as Vikings in Saga.
Weird World War based on something fairly strict like a book (Team Yankee) seems to be successful to a degree. The threshold for weird will always be a sticking point with the immersion for each player but perhaps having a story you can both be familiar with might set your expectations at a similar level.
What I see as a potential bonus of Konflict 47, of being able to use a Bolt Action army with just a few additions, to someone else looks like a bolt-on contrivance that they are unimpressed by.
Rules are key. A good game will attract players, but we are finding of late that generally people want something shiny and new in the miniatures department before they’ll look into the rules. The rules need to make you feel like you are playing in that alternative era. As the war never played out the hypothetical way you need to decide whether things became even more lethal, or the lethality stayed the same but the weaponry allows you to fight at greater distances and more reliably.
I think the threshold for any setting is what the fluff is like and how it inspires players.
Wether that’s something fantastic like ‘Moonstone’ or something more realistic/grounded in reality like Saga (for example).
Good fluff that doesn’t overwhelm the player with choices while being internally consistent and logical is what helps.
The problem with both Dust and K’47 is that they lack consistent fluff that has logic to it.
Dust kept piling on the weird until it became something that wasn’t ‘weird war’ but more like ‘weird’.
K’47 didn’t offer a background that allowed the setting to exist as anything other than an excuse to use your bolt-action armies in a new game.
I always felt that Weird World War 2 should have been around the occult as there were people researching this in Germany at the time. I would have progressed the weapons given to the troops, so Russians get the AK-47, British get that Bullpup design rifle which they rejected after WW2. Bring forward the new tank designs such as the Centurion. Then add some of the occult flavour to the game but not in a comic book style but dark and gritty.
https://www.all4shooters.com/en/shooting/culture/bullpup-rifles-1945-1970-before-they-became-mainstream/
Interesting discussion today about weird world war, it reminded me of a book I read many years ago but Harry Turtledove called World War In the Balance. The basic premise is in late 1944 aliens turn up and attack everybody, they don’t have any fancy lasers or beams their tech is roughly the same is ours is in the 90’s (when this was written). So they have jets and guided missiles etc. but they didn’t bring loads as they come from a slowly changing culture and the probe they sent 800 years ago only showed men on horseback in armour.
I wondered if you home brew some rules and run a WW2 list against something from team yankee? Ok the infantry are supposed to aliens but you could use the vehicles easily enough, the only problem I can see is for the WW2 side to have a chance they would have to be asymmetric objectives as the aliens would always win the battle but maybe lose at a strategic level when their supplies ran out.
Sorry Hairybrains,I obviously missed your comment about the World War books. There were originally 6 in the initial release. Harry then continued with the Colonization by The Race. I thoroughly enjoyed this series.
Thanks I didn’t know there were 6, I read that a very long time ago.
I originally had all 6 books, but due to ‘my personal library'(wife’s description, not mine), taking over the house, some just had to go! It must be 20+ years ago that I first read them, so, I’ve recently ‘invested’ in the Kindle versions!!! ????
Missing a franchise to add onto, well there is Iron Skies .
I really doubt know why as Secrets of the 3rd Reich is a good game and board games like Incursion proved the idea works. Maybe what it is better suited for board games and alike but I am sad to see the end of Dust
@avernos & @jonlyons , I may or may not have intentionally brought a full Lance of Urbanmechs as part of my Clan Invasion Kickstarter rewards…..
*screams in trashcan*
“Laughs in AC-20”
A shame about the Dust, but it never really took off down here. Thankfully my Allied army has a ton of stuff that already converted, and painted, and I have a heap more type 2 troops I could do if I ever wanted to expand. When Paolo abandoned the Warfare variant of Dust, the community took it over and we continued playing and adding new stuff.
Heck I only recently finished the giant walking recovery vehicle for my Armoured Infantry Platoon.
I don’t think anyone has suggested it, but, the series of books titled ‘World War’ written by Harry Turtledove is not only a great read, but gives an alternative events timeline to what is still a predominantly accurate historical progress of WW2. I recommend a look!
I play a wide variety of games , historical, sci fi, fantasy and so on. I really liked Dust because the rules were fun and the models looked “realistic” (maybe reasonable is the better term). I thought Parente did a really good job of keeping things in the style of the period. As a historical gamer I could see the inspiration from the real life vehicles. Getting games locally was pretty easy, we have and will continue to have an active player base. I was ok with the pinup mercenary units but really didn’t like the zombies. In fact, I’m opposed to zombies in most games, they’ve been overdone. I didn’t care for the Mythos stuff but they were a fun addition to the game. Konflict 47 had potential. I really enjoyed Bolt Action but K47 was written after Gates of Antares and before BA 2.0. As such it’s a weird blend of BA 1.0 and Gates. I think it would’ve been better as a supplement to Bolt Action as it would’ve worked with both editions of BA. The only thing Konflict 47 added was the special rules for the weird weapons and weird vehicles. I liked some of the vehicles but they were a bit meh. I really didn’t care for most of the infantry but some of it was pretty cool. I also really like Reichbusters. The fact it’s Weird War is secondary. It’s got really interesting game mechanics and it’s a fun co-op game with real cinematic moments. All Quiet on the Martian Front was a really interesting game but it’s Kickstarter edition had balance issues. I’m told the new owners of the IP have resolved that but finding the minis is difficult. Tripods and Triplanes, the Wings of Glory game, is another weird war game that’s fun but finding it is difficult. But finding Wings of Glory itself is also difficult.
I think you will always struggle with ‘wierd world war two’ because you unintentionally get tied up in knots as you develop the ‘lore’ and start asking what would happen if ‘faction’ x had longer to fight, or better guns. Very real terrible things happened to millions of people in living memory in ww2 and although you will clearly get lots of people exploring the actual war, by painting and playing war games, I think a lot of people would actually not really want to delve into ‘gee, imagine if stalin had werewolves or if Hitler had lasers’. I don’t have a problem with all the games out there, I don’t question the authors motives, and a lot of the minis and art look cool, I just think that, rightly, there’s lots of baggage around refracting world war two.
Thinking of an IP to attach to WWW2, I know technically it’s after, but Red Alert….
twin-gun tanks makes me approve of this idea.
Mmm… yes… robot hug pillows… tank tits…Roswell alien sex party Mile High Club for a weird world war… GW being ripped off? Slaanesh is pleased.
In all reality, I’d say that the two camp view that John points out dovetails with Lloyd. Frankly I’m of the opinion that there might just be some genres that don’t very well mesh together. Then again you have great and wonderful surprises like the film Repo The Genetic Opera, the musical groups of Babymetal or Ladybaby and pineapple pizza. The rise or fall of a game is at the will of the market and we have some pretty interesting things going on right now with all the mad rush to actually get crap painted. That could be a downturn in the sales overall and a weeding out of smaller producers. The ideas might be so niche that they really don’t carry. Such is our lot that printing provides creators to produce files that won’t take up shelf space and clog the retail pipeline into our waiting veins for mini crack.
I actually have a lot of Dust 1947 and can field reasonable axis,allies and red armies but did buy most of it dirt heap when stores were clearing out fantasy flight stuff. I do love the vast magority of minis and find the game a fun but light romp But have to say much of what was said hits the nail on the head for me aswell.
1. Have some issues with the aircraft. Didn’t like the gumpy aesthetics, the American P thing was just ‘puke’ and at this scale, aircraft feel like they are being shoe-horned in and something is about to give.
2. Having an entire force based on 1 generic pinup was just plain stupid. I wanted more variety in pinups and spread across all factions.
3. The Cthulu and alien stuff isnt something I never played with but I do get the the whole cosmic forces thing and think the minis looked fantastic. But as a player of Chutulu and Actung I’m always thinking, so what is the context? I can envisage a moment in a larger story where a small number of these elements might engage or stumble into each other but not lining up on opposite sides of the battlefield.
So not only are many elements unbalanced but they are unlikely to work without being driven naratively
There really is a fine line that the creator has to be clear on and stick to when doing weird2. Dust almost got it right then dumped a mono dimensional TnA fest into the mix along with a ham fisted approach to a free IP so as the guys said, it lost its cohesion. Interestingly I was having a conversation on the weekend comparing Actung Chuthulu to DnD and we agreed DnD’s broad popularity is that everything in it can be redefined and molded to fit whatever the gamers want and they go on ther merry way. Actung has the issue where all our players are also ww2 buffs so if in haste a detail comes up that grates with our known history it breaks the suspension of disbelief a bit. On the flip side when we riff off our knowledge and Actung goes smoothly it’s shear joy.
I’m not going to hold my breath believing someone will come along and create the perfect wierdw2 game. I’ll keep all my dust stuff for now,boxed and unpainted. I have Reichbusters, Hellboy and Death may Die and wonder if I couldnt come up some narative driven senarios with all those minis.
I think one of the core issues with Weird World War (as someone who truly loves the genre) is that its an overlap of two genres (historical and sci-fi) but its intentionally excluding some key members of each Genre.
Historical – a lot of historical gamers and hobbyists are all about…history. They love precision and accuracy. Their army includes a specific unit, at a specific period of time and place, using the specific gear available at that time and that place. A lot of these gamers/hobbyists do copious research to ensure what they are fielding as an army is an accurate portrayal of reality. These are the “rivet-counters.” Weird World War doesn’t appeal to them, as its not history. Its not realistic. It doesn’t feed that research “itch” that they constantly feel.
Sci-Fi – a lot of sci-fi gamers, particularly in today’s Games Workshop-centered world, are all about creativity. Lots of them love to create a completely unique force that’s got a story of its own. They create unique characters, units, and vehicles. They want to create something that is unique. Its not like anyone else’s army/force. Weird World War often doesn’t appeal to these gamers because a key feature of being Weird World War is that there must be enough real history to ground the game in the genre. While there can be walkers and werewolves, there still must be GIs and Sherman tanks so people know its a weird version of WW2. Without this historical anchor its just sci-fi. However, that grounding often discourages the more creative sci-fi lovers.
Different games balance these two differently. Konflikt 47 is more history, less sci-fi, as it uses a lot of units from real WW2 history/Bolt Action. DUST was more SCI-FI, with almost no “real” WW2 units and vehicles, just common design elements that hinted at the historical period (infantry helmets, vehicles with components lifted from real designs).
In the end, you have a genre that has a dedicated following, but it a following that the genre, by its very nature, intentionally limits.
I like history and historicals allows a deep dive of research into the nooks and crannies of any conflict you wish. The down side is its a bit like rereading a book or rewatching a film. We all know the ending of each particular skirmish, battle or campaign. It does offer some scope for doing “what if” scenarios, but you cant really let your imagination fly.
Sci-fi/fantasy allows you to come up with your own back stories, characters and paint schemes. It allows designers as well to break from the laws of physics and realistic design.
On paper “weird-war” should be the best of both worlds, use your existing models, but with greater scope for your imagination.
However is the issue that in sci-fi “anything can happen its in the future”, in fnatasy “anything can happen its a mythical world” where is in weird war youre sort of tied to realism in some way, whilst knowing it didnt REALLY happen.
D.U.S.T. will be missed.. and I hope that someone picks it up, ’cause the gameplay was fun. Love weird war.
I was just wondering if there was anything Bust 1947 being thrown into clearance but the reality is there isnt anything on my side of the planet a, nothing much discounted anywhere and I’m basicaly doubling the price to ship.
There wasan article in Time mag 6 days ago about tehcrunch of shipping on gaming and Dust gets a mention.
https://time.com/6096497/board-games-shipping-crisis/
‘Although DUST USA co-owner Gregoire Boisbelaud says game demand was “massively better” than expected in 2020, supply chain bottlenecks have since created huge issues for the company. The company’s popular game DUST 1947 is a tactical miniatures game that incorporates aliens, zombies, “cultists-summoning monsters” and futuristic weaponry, all into an alternate World War II timeline. While DUST USA’s product normally takes five to six weeks to get from China to the company’s Georgia warehouse, Boisbelaud says that hasn’t been the case this year.
“We were supposed to have a shipment from China in February, but it got stuck at the shipping hub for almost a month,” he tells TIME. “It finally left in March and was supposed to arrive in May, but it’s been stuck in port in Seattle since then. So my container is sitting somewhere in a pile of containers. It’s so problematic that we’re probably going to close by the end of the year.”’
So maybe its less about Wierd War 2 being a flop and more about a company structure not being quite lucrative enough or flexible enough to weather current market/supply conditions.
“Bust 1947” lol
I was a big fan of Dust for a number of years and even painted a whole army!…
What led me away from it in the end was partly the direction it was going in (the Cathulu stuff just didn’t fit for me), but more the direction the game itself was going. There had always been balance issues but the game meta moved towards very cheap, over powered units that made many of the earlier (& IMO more interesting), units redundant.
LOVED DUST FROM A MINIATUREA COLLECTOR. I HAVE NEVER PLAYED THE GAME. I AGREE THAT IF THEY HAD STAYED WITH A REALISTIC MILITARY ASPECT AND WANDERED OFF AS THEY DID WITH THE “PIN-UP” THEY MIGHT HVE LASTED A WHIE LONGER. E MIGHT HAVE SEEN THE INTRODUCTION OF THE BELL 47 OR SIKORSJY S-51 HELICOPTERS. OH,WEELL, I’LL JUT HAVE O SEARCH AROUND AND SEE WHAT ELSE i MAY BE ABLE TO PICK UP ON THE CHEAP. BY THE WAY,LLOUD THE RUSSIAN HELICOPTER LOOKS LIKE IT WAS OOSELY BASED ON ONE OF THE KAMOV
SERIES. HAVE A NICE WEEK.SEE YOU FRIDAY.
Great topic. I think it is the boundaries that is the problem.
Games Workshop did a great job setting the boundaries for their Sci-fi world.
I think they did go over the boundaries with their fantasy range.
Now you see other sculpted on Patreon making fantasy to write or grand as well.
Lost kingdom miniatures for example is going to big and weird as well in fantasy for my liking.
I loved the Old World.
Last Sword miniatures are doing great sculpted now for fantasy.
Not to over the top.
I agree with Lloyd. WWWII must be believable for me. I have dust models and love them for same reason. I will now use them in konflIKt if I can AS THE ONLY perso i now that will play WWWII will play konflikt, Also my germans are Hydra based.
Cad’s defo searching for a body pillow!