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  • #1967427

    Graduate-Plastics-1631887898

    A thought came to me from a suggestion on YouTube as to how reliant our hobby is on oil and Chinese production. This thread isn’t for personal feelings but an analysis of geopolitics on the supply chain impact of the industry we gain entertainment from. Getting the ball rolling I’ll share the video that kicked things off for me.

    My initial interest was the material cost going up for injection molding in the PRC as well as general costs for shipping. As a further point for consideration I’m curious to know what kind of impact this has on other plastic production companies (Archon, Reaper, Siocast operations?) Aside from that will this be a blip for metal mini makers just for shipping and lead people back to loving pewter?

    #1967429
    grantinvanman
    10166xp

    GW still does their core plastic casting in UK; only their terrain lines are in PRC.

    Also, the number one use for oil extracted here in Alberta is … the plastic pellets that are used to make things out of plastic. And we do a lot of oil. Like, it’s the whole economy. Or people would make you believe it.

    Metal I can’t see making a comeback in any real way, sadly. Too heavy for shipping is reason number one. Molds burn out, and need to be remade, for another. A plastics mold last forever and ever and ever.

    Resin, proper resin, is similar to metal with mold process. Siocast is an abomination (think GW Failcast…).

    The Hormuz situation will resolve, somehow, despite it heating up right now. No more wars? NO! More WARS! So much winning…

     

    #1967431
    limburger
    22468xp
    Cult of Games Member

    The shareholders sure as heck aren’t looking at alternatives to ensure this disruption doesn’t affect production.
    All they care about is how to maximize the profits by selling their current resources for maximum profit.
    That’s why we are in this situation.

    They did not learn from the pandemic by increasing local buffers and looking for alternatives.
    Well … they learned how much profit they could increase by citing supply chain disruption.

    Look forward to an increase in prices for plastic minis in the near future as the increased cost is passed on through the supply chain.

    And don’t expect those prices to go down once this insanity has passed.

    #1967432
    collins
    16605xp
    Cult of Games Member

    You’re right, the problem will pass but the rebound time will have a significantly longer tail and by the time you might be in a position to return to last know good state everyone will be used to the higher prices and a box of marines will be circa £60 (as an arbitrary made up price) and there will be little incentive to reduce the price.

    #1967443
    Wolfie65
    1280xp

    As far as I’m concerned, 1-piece metal miniatures are still the gold standard. As for molds wearing out, Minifigs from the 1970s are still available, I just got a good-sized box of them a few weeks ago and the casts are as crisp as you please. Hard plastic is fine if it doesn’t go to the extremes shown here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxtk2KhDgrs 2 hours to assemble 1 Ogre-sized figure consisting of 46 (!) parts….

    Resin and 3D prints are just too fragile to hold up to serious gaming in the long run and while the extreme undercuts and ultra-dynamic poses made possible by 3D printing do look cool, they also make painting such figures very difficult, since you cannot reach some parts of the miniature withe even the skinniest paintbrush and even air brushes or rattle cans cannot be aimed at them without creating massive overspray. In such cases, your best option is to flood the area with the dark color of your choice, plunging the undercut into deep shadow and not paint what you cannot see.

    #1967456
    athelstane
    709xp

    @Wolfie65

    I agree wholeheartedly.  I have been banging on for ages about how expensive plastics are already, when you factor in the assembly of so many.  Seriously,  you have to give your spare time some value, £20 per hour?  A extra ten minutes putting together a figure is another £3.  And that’s at £20 per hour!!!!

    I wish I hadn’t lost my copy of Donald F Featherstone’s ‘Wargames’ with its section on how to cast lead figures. ( Is his book the equivalent to our hobby of Isaac Waltons ‘The Compleat Angler’ to fishing?)

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 2 days ago by athelstane.
    #1967458
    pagan8th
    14710xp

    I still have some molds i got from Prince August decades ago.

    3 Dwarf’s in a mold, 3 elves, 3 Napoleonics and a chess set.

    Still got the casting stuff and some metal too. From what I recall there were a lot of failures.especially thin weapons, bows and the bayonets on the rifles.

    #1967459
    limburger
    22468xp
    Cult of Games Member

    every material has its advantages and disadvantages.

    I suspect that with modern technology like 3D printing it is much easier to keep master moulds for metals in production.
    Sure, the mould might break, but as long as you can re-create the master production is possible. When you rely on handsculpted masters then things aren’t so easy, unless you convert it to a digital format.

    Heck, the simple fact that we have alternatives is a good thing.
    Likewise companies that can offer multiple materials will find it easier to survive temporary supply issues too.

    #1967486
    Wolfie65
    1280xp

    @athelstane – I remember a time when the average price for a metal figure was around $ 2.00, plastics about $ 1.00 per basic infantry trooper. And I am still highly suspicious of anything that goes beyond that – which today is everything….Plus, we now have the very bizarre situation that plastic figures often cost MORE than metal figures, which, I suppose, is something you have to expect living in upside-down Clown World…I have several of Featherstone’s books, including Complete Wargaming and do cast figures on occasion when it’s warm enough to have the windows open. Which brings me to

    @pagan8th – I have LOTS of Prince August molds, almost all of the 25mm Fantasy ones, some 32mm and most of the 40 mm Holger Eriksson Karoliner. They are very well made, last a long time and if you have trouble with them, there are tutorials on the PA website as well as on TheirTube. If thin pieces are the issue, maybe you need to vent the molds or make sure they are somewhat warm before casting.

    @limburger – I’m not sure what the advantages of resin minis are. They often claim that the detail is crisper, but I don’t see a difference. For example, Demented Games offered most of their Twisted figures in both a metal ‘gamer’s’ and a resin ‘collector’s’ edition and they look equally crisp to me. Same applies to the few metal figures you can get from Raging Hormones, erm, Heroes. 3D prints have the advantage of being completely independent of any mold-related considerations, but that produces the already mentioned painting difficulties. I have talked to several 3D manufacturers onEtsy marketplace and they have all said that no one gives any thought to how hard it would be to paint a particular figure when it is designed.

    #1967487
    limburger
    22468xp
    Cult of Games Member

    @Wolfie65 I’ve heard that claim too.
    I suspect that resin moulds don’t wear out as fast as metal, so they are more likely to have all the details as production increases?
    I’m sure experts will know more about this.

    As for painting issues with 3D prints … I’d say that is a design issue.
    Keep in mind that 3D printing has lowered the barrier to getting miniatures made considerably, so the designers may not have developed the skills required to understand what is needed to make it easy to paint.

    And consider that you essentially skip the mould design process which is a skill in itself. Maybe all the features required for making a good mould also make the figure easier to paint ?

    (never mind that designers that do metal / resin minis tend to have decades of experience … so unless they transition to 3D printing that is a skill/experience gap that isn’t easy to compensate for by new creators)

    tl;dr;

    I doubt it is the materials, but a combination of skill and experience that isn’t as easy to acquire unless you have to paint the minis you produce yourself.

    #1967490
    grantinvanman
    10166xp

    @Wolfie65 I’m glad you can fill your nostalgia vibe with … 50(?) year old Minifigs; nostalgia can be a deeply satisfying drug. Modern Perry metals are beautiful and what I’d be buying. No two ways about it.

    I last built a full metal army circa 2010 – GW no less; a Nurgle Death Guard. Conversions galore, I saved all the filing dust from mold lines to use as “rust” or “corrosion” on the models to great effect.

    Without a power Dremel, that army wouldn’t have come together.

    Building a large monopose historicals army, metals look awesome. I did a plastic Naps army once – Perry minis. Even the relatively simple build of 3-4 parts made me think twice. Victrix plastics? They’ll drive you nuts.

    But for GW gaming, plastic and kit bashing is a winning combo. No two ways about it. Look at my four kits used to make a trukk-trakk… no way metals could do this level of conversion.

    IMG_1362IMG_1358IMG_1359

     

    #1967496

    @grantinvanman I agree that metal is the tasty material of choice. It keeps in the hand when a heft reminds you of holding an object. It also seems to be the best for maintaining a sense of history.

    As far as conversion I wholeheartedly agree the level of work you’d be able to achieve quickly wouldn’t be there. In future the price gouge of plastics is a reason to likely step back away from it (atleast for some manufacturers).

    @Wolfie65 I remember the days when Reaper had those prices per figure and the metals shot up three times before they tried their P65 line of lead prior to the first run of Bones. Logistics costs and manufacturing tends to bite us all in this collective ass pretty hard in this niche interest group.

    #1967507
    Wolfie65
    1280xp

    @grantinvanman – While many of the 1970s Minifigs are rather crude by today’s ultra-mega-detailed standards, they do have qualities that modern minis cannot match, at least not in my eyes. They look like something out of fairy tale or saga, while modern minis look like something from a video game. Pick your preferred aesthetic….And the Aureola Rococo ‘Elves’ – based on Rodney Matthews paintings, especially ‘People of the Pines  and Twelve Towers at Dawn, inspired by Michael Moorcock stories, and bearing some resemblance to GW’s Night Goblins are actually quite intricate little fellows that wouldn’t look out of place in games such as Moonstone, for example.

    More on resin: I am neither clumsy nor careless, but I had a hell of a time with the resin figures that come in the basic Carnevale starter set. Even just during cleaning and prep, one of the ladies of the evening broke off at the ankles several times, so did the harpoon carried by one of the fishermen, which also had so much extra resin clumped on it I decided to turn a casting sin into a virtue, leave some of the excess on the harpoon and paint it as lagoon scum still sticking to the tip. And don’t get me started on the gondoliere’s oar, which quite literally hangs by a thread…..

    #1967512
    limburger
    22468xp
    Cult of Games Member

    One can’t blame the material for a faulty design that doesn’t take the material weakness into account.

    I managed to break a metal knife an Infinity model was holding. And that was because the design had it so super thin that anything would have damaged it no matter how careful you handled it.

    Some companies are better at a given material than others, which makes it tricky for them to release the same design in multiple materials unless you either account for the weakest in both or create a new design for each material.

     

    #1967559
    dags
    4360xp

    I mean Archon manufacture in Poland and other use uk based manufacturing.  So not everything is China based.  It will hit the asmodee studios, cmon and board games with big plastic minis and the like more.  Although all will face related material and shipping costs.

    The turmoil is also likely to hit metals a bit. As they tend to be a fall back stock and a lot of the smelting is China based

    However, its a luxury product and plastics is the common material of choice and necessary for larger kits.  So unless costs drive people out then companies may see reduced revenues but should continue ok.  Of course if it does drive enough out then there will need to be an adjustment, what that is I don’t know.

    As for 3d printing, until it can produce reliably in bulk (tens or hundreds of thousands of units) with minimal labour required and durable resins can be produced then I am not sure its an industry answer.

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