Chapterhouse vs GW: The Human Story
February 7, 2011 by beerogre
So... the can of worms is officially open... Chapterhouse Studios have found legal representation, in order to take on GW in court (or out of it... which ever transpires first) and finally settle this whole affair.
This could be the beginning of the beginning, or the beginning of the end for so-called "GW aftermarket parts"... or it may all splutter out like a damp... er... squig! (poor humour I know).
But, let's put all that aside and look at the human story... you know... the bit thats just too easy to forget, when your dealing with that whole corporate hatred thing.
... and what about the great minds we're forgetting?
As each day goes by, Games Workshop are becoming more the faceless corporation, the pantomine villain. This is in part, because they ARE acting more like a corporation... professional... business-like and profit driven. But lets take a moment to remind ourselves of the induviduals who helped define (or redefine) an entire industry, in this case Jes Goodwin.
Jes is a man who has basically dedicated his life to the development of the artistic direction of 40K. Dedicating your life to something in the creative industries, is an almost impossible task and Jes is one of the few (like Jervis Johnson, Rick Priestly, Alan and Michael Perry et al) who have poured an entire lifetime into creating the fictional world that we fans enjoy so much.. and that many take a little too seriously at times.
GW is not FORD or BP, where production is spread among enormous teams of 9-5, talented empolyees. The beating heart of projects in GW is undertaken by one or two individuals, before moving into the wider production process.
You see... in the creative industries, with every design you create and every sculpt you produce, you're putting a little bit of yourself into it and you take it to heart, because in this kind of business... it's never really "just business"...
Now, I'm sure Jes could have clubbed me over the head with a Storm Raven, after I labeled it a "Storm-Toaster"... because yes... even gentle banter can wound the ego (and I use the word ego here in the most respectful way, as without it we would have no designers), but criticism is part-and-parcel of the industry and most likely, I'll lavish the next model with praise.
But what about being inspired by... what about copying... what about theft?
Here's what I mean. You spend your life creating something, only to see others coming along and at best making money of your hard work, but at worst abusing it with bad design and miserable quality.
How does it feel, I wonder, when you have your future ideas lifted and executed, before you ever get the chance to tackle them yourself?
I don't believe you can dedicate a life to something and not feel a real pang of hurt, when you see your concept, your design, your creation... hell your baby... lifted and profited on by others!
Of course, these people may be doing what they do out of their love of the concept, but when they start to profit from it (or at least try too) it's always going to leave a bitter taste.
You can make bundles of cash from your designs and it doesn't matter one iota, because I'm pretty certain that individuals like Jes, don't do what they do for the money, because when you're that creative, you have to deeply love something to dedicate an entire life to it.
So what about aftermarket parts?
Well, I wonder could we see some kind of official endorsement for some of the talented companies who could produce them. I mean a situtation, where GW get a licence fee and Jes (and the team) can get the proper recognition... or even give an input into the designs.
These talented individuals won't be around forever, but I hope their creations are. At some point (and it's already been happening in GW for a long time) others will pick the concepts up and run with them. Perhaps this could happen in other very talented and officially endorsed studios and we end up with an even bigger and fuller 40k universe.
However, I'm certain that the legacy of Jes and the other pioneers of the industry... those who made it all happen... will continue to inspire generations to come... ad who knows... maybe even into the 41st millennium.
BoW Warren
“I’m sure Jes could have clubbed me over the head with a Storm Raven, after I labeled it a “Storm-Toaster”” Yeah he probably calls it a Thunder Budgie too.
The problem I have with GW shutting this sort of thing down is most of the things these companies do are stuff GW and even Forge World don’t. If Forge World was run properly and spent more of their time filling in the gaps in the main Codex based army lists -instead of 10 million slight variants of things that have plastic kits and stuff that can only be used in apocalypse IF you buy a £50 hardback with its rules in- folk like Chapter House would never have started “infringing” in GWs IP.
It’s a really interesting argument but sadly I don’t think you can separate the effort that Jes puts into his creations to where they become another product put forward by a faceless corporation. Even so do we assume he is hurt by someone else adding to something he has made. I can’t pretend to know what he really feels but, I’d feel more impact from the name Storm-Turkey than from someone making a set of new heads to go on a body I had sculpted. If I didn’t do it for the cash then I’ve done it for the creativity or maybe even to add to the hobby.
“If I have seen a little further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.” Instead of being hurt by Chapter House maybe Gee Dub (as a profit machine and a creative entity) should feel proud of what they’ve started.
It seems to me that if Chapterhouse had simply not used the GW names, then would there be a case to answer?
Alien parts, sci tank door. We all know what they are for.
Does seem a little like GW had to say no to using the same IP names/concepts. Love them or hate them GW do spend a lot of time and money on creating the worlds we play in. That may makes the models more expensive, but I love being able to read in more detail about my army for painting schemes, making rare units or terrain.
I’m not saying Chapterhouse shouldn’t be able to make parts, I like them and have bought similar Tau parts. Why use the exact same names?
Do you think paramount would be happy with star trek figures sold as Captain Kirk.
It did seem like a legal letter waiting to happen…
Two rhetorical questions:
1) Is it right to make stuff and profit from a system you didn’t create, obvioulsy the entire industry has grey areas – so where do you draw the line?
2) If you have the talent to sculpt some amazing stuff why not step up and create you own system?
No easy answers, but the questions are valid 🙂
Damed rhetorical questions. We need to reply……..
Well even though rhetorical means you’re not supposed to answer:
1) On the Warm and fuzzy morality side, no its probably not, cold hard legality flip-side, we don’t get a vote but I suspect the ruling will be a “yes, but only if…” that comes down on the side of GW.
2) When you actually look at some of the stuff chapter house do its not really as clean as GW stuff, it works as parts and you don’t notice the cartoonish feel some of the bits have because they’re hidden by the pseudo-realistic sculpts of the models you put them on, but would you actually want a whole army with faces like the Imperial guard heads they sell?(outside of Relics…)
Good points Warren.
1) no – as a designer I don’t like copying others work, however in the grey area of growing the hobby, you would think that it would make more sense for GW to approach chapterhouse to make it work for both of them. License deal??
2) hanging off GW coat tails would appear to be the easy option. Especially when it comes to reproducing rhino doors, just like forgeworld, NOT good. But I also like the idea of having more options to customise my models. If someone could make parts that took the basic gw stuff and made into steampunk or vietnam????
However – making model parts vs writing a convincing world/background and solid games system to match are very different skills. And would require a lot more time and money…
1) Yes, I believe so. Nobody asks about the ethics of after market parts for automobiles, nor even models of automobiles.
2) Because they too, love the universe Jes created. They really aren’t far off from converters that went professional.
Some of the best converters in the hobby have the skill and imagination to make their own models but chose to make space marines, tau, tyranids, etc. and nobody questions them, just because they chose not to make resin casts of their additions for others to use?
There’s a difference between me sculpting an Ork Warboss that towers over Gazguhl without armour on cos I think Warbosses should be bigger than they are or plating over skeleton arms to make bionics for a master of the forge to get a decent pose to hold his C-beamer, and someone who does it to cast many duplicates and sells them for profit, both morally and legally.
When I saw the link from Facebook, I thought I was going to read about big bad GW stomping on the little guy. I was heartened to read the opposite.
I don’t think licensing would work unless we were willing to pay even more for out plastic aliens. It’s no small thing to walk the licensing tightrope of your own core business in terms of quality control over third parties.
And the knee jerk reactions regarding this subject on both sides would be laughable if it wasn’t coming from what used to be a close knit community.
Obviously, Chapterhouse wouldn’t exist without 40k, but this is not like building a case for an iPod. This is building a different screen for the iPod and using the iPod name. Is it interdependent regardless of the names used? Of course. Is it legal? That’s not for ANYONE to decide except for the judge, arbitrator, or jury in this case.
I’m thinking something along the lines of the old d20 license would work for GW.
for those not familiar, from the Wikipedia entry:
“…many third party publishers produce products designed to be compatible with that game (Dungeons & Dragons) and its cousin, d20 Modern. Wizards of the Coast provides a separate license allowing publishers to use some of its trademarked terms and a distinctive logo to help consumers identify these products. This is known as the d20 System Trademark License. The d20 System Trademark License (D20STL) requires publishers to exclude character creation and advancement rules, apply certain notices and adhere to an acceptable content policy… D20STL products require a core book from Wizards of the Coast and must clearly state this.”
Wizards of the Coast have since moved on to their new D&D 4 ruleset, but I think something along these lines could help GW get some of the money they deserve from people using their intelectual property.
GW establishes an approval process with a licensing fee, and companies that pass get to put the official “GW seal of Quality” on the product.
Win-win, assuming the licensing fee isn’t prohibitively high, and that the approval process isn’t painful.
I’m sure the GW people, artists and all, care about what they do… Even the creator of Hello Kitty cares about that little turd she drew once… Not to draw a comparison, here, but even as they do care, they still design the products to be sold, and sometimes nothing more. And they sell it well.
Granted, many a GW miniature is artfully done, but there’s a hefty majority (so much, so VERY much…) of them that are (pardon my bluntness) crappily made, and so many that are only simple variations on an easily reproduced design… Flashing, sprue marks, loss of detail, misproportioned sculpt…
And don’t get me started on how White Dwarf is now just another catalog, or about the hobby accessories, paints and brushes… You all know, you probably all have plenty of grief to give GW. I’m not here to talk about that.
DO they have the right to do that ? Hell yes. They’re also in it for the money, and that’s the stuff that gets the shops, the clubs and the Games Day running. As long as people are buying, why not try to make a living ?
Do they have a right to sue a company for filling the gaps in their catalog ?
Legally, yes. Indubitably. Or we just throw away the law.
Morally… In my opinion (biased as I may be), it depends.
When a company is making quality parts and miniatures that are an hommage to the GW universe, or complement it, I don’t think sueing is adviseable… And you’ll notice that GW doesn’t sue those companies, at least not regularly : Scibor, HiTech, Micro-Art Studios and many others are still very much in business. They still do lovely stuff, and the non-GW minis aren’t authorized in tournaments and official games anyway.
However, when a company is making terrible, ill-molded, bad quality parts copying the GW stuff, I think GW has a duty to put the plagiarists out of business, were it only to restore the general quality of a market about and around the GW products, a market that is inevitable anyway.
I believe that’s what happened with Chapterhouse, and while it is a terrible thing to have to resort to such legal methods, I believe Chapterhouse made their own bed regarding that matter.
That said, I’d rather have GW come to terms with other companies who are willing to create miniatures complementing their range, communicating with them on what they may or may not “safely” do, perhaps signing some kind of license agreement, rather than sueing them, or ignoring them and leaving a very unseemly and ominous judicial void.
Think about what WOTC did with the Open Game License… Even a simple license given by GW on a company-per-company basis would mean a lot to the gamers.
Would it be a sound business decision ? I don’t know.
Probably yes, as long as you don’t license every company on the market, as long as said licensing allows you to regulate what’s distributed, and as long as the licensed company pay for being able to add to the GW range openly.
I’m not an accountant or an economist, but it makes sense.
Thing is with GW, they seem indomitable, with all the shops and what not. However not so long ago the BBC reported profit loss and many a heart sank at the slightest hint GW might be in trouble. Just goes to show they aren’t untouchable, they can fold just like any other company.
I remember the days when white dwarf was full of characters , rick priestly, that crazy guy who used to pull his best Ork face in every photo (Andy) and it all had some charm. Now it all seems very processed and we get Mat Ward, who should be burned alive for writing in the Blood Angels codex that they all wish they were Ultramarines. Seriously, get out.
My point being that GW has lost some of its ‘by gamers for gamers’ heart over the years, but guys like Jes and videos of him with Phil Kelly talking about the Dark Eldar bring it back, and remind you there are people pooring their imaginations into things for our benefit. The size of GW as a global company then dictates that court cases and the like are hard to avoid, because its not just a group of friends in a shed anymore, its big business, and thats how big business rolls.
Chapterhouse could EASILLY have avoided this if they wanted to, but as they proved on forums, they chose to walk the thin line, and now its put up or shut up.
I’ve had a problem with Jes as a creator ever since he decided to axe the Squats (and brought in Dark Eldar, ecchh). It’s one of the biggest reasons why I left the game of 40k (well that and and 15 million Space Marine armies). Fantasy is all I do play from GW, how long will it be before they start going after the companies that make beasts that aren’t represented in the current catalogue?
Aftermarket is just that – AFTER-market. Carol Shelby put his heart and soul into making the Shelby Cobra – Every aftermarket shop in the industry makes a spare part for it – not a penny of their profits go back to Ford or Carol. Go to any AutoZone in the country and you’ll find a catalog of aftermarket oil filters to fit your car – Do you think GM/Ford/Chrysler makes a dime off of them? No, they make money selling the whole car, their overpriced aftermarket parts are found in their captive shops. The buyer has the choice to go to the Original Equipment Manuafacturer (OEM) store (Games Workshop) or to anyone else they want (Autozone) to get a replacement part – all they have to specify is “OEM” or “non-OEM”. Maybe a windshield, maybe a bumper? It’s all “made to fit”, not “made and licensed to/from”.
How would you like to HAVE to buy replacement/upgrade hard drives for your computer from IBM? Rember how rediculous IBM’s OEM part prices were vs. everyone else? Would you cry “foul” and buy it from Western Digital instead? Or pony up 2x-3x the $$$ to buy the original IBM part that wasn’t as fast or as reliable or as inexpensive as any hard drive in any catalog.
GW can and should profit form the making of their big box items. They should pretect that right jealously with every legal trick in the book. However, the aftermarket is not controlled by them, it’s controlled and driven by the customer.
GW can make as much as they want from their Land Raider, however when someone else makes a better, less expensive door to put on that same Land Raider, the customer has the right buy that door somewhere else. Just like EVERY OTHER INDUSTRY ON THE PLANET.
I really look forward to seeing the AFTERmarket getting a leg up on GW.
You’re comparing the auto industry to copyright infringement. It’s apples and oranges.
Regardless of how much heart and soul went into the making of Shelby’s cars, he did not own the idea of the car, nor the internal combustion engine, the windshield wiper, or the tire.
Games Workshop makes miniatures to support their game, that they own all rights to.
It’s a closed system.
Something more analogous would be toys and merchandise for the Star Wars franchise. You cannot, for instance, buy a cheaper x-wing fighter pilot for your x-wing fighter.
Not a legal one, at any rate. Lucas holds the keys to that walled garden, and every x-wing pilot sold is a Lucas one.
What, you think GW owns orks, space soldiers, elves or demons ?
When prices on models go up and the profits of GW go down there is nothing I like more than a satisfying moan and a grumble. However, in this instance I have to side with GW.
Charterhouse are next to stupid making space marine models etc for their own profit and then using GW established names to label and market them. I love the creativity and imagination at GW; the designer, artists, sculptures and writers are superb. If anything I argue they need to do something brand new to the hobby to keep it fresh. Anyway, for a rival company to setup to purely make GW replicas and then sell them for their own profit is just asking for trouble.
In addition to the eternal issue of prices £££, one thing this episode from Charterhouse does show is that GW isn’t fulfilling its potential and that there is a gap in its product range. Also it does raise questions about Forge World. Would Charterhouse be at all successful if Forge World focused more on offering alternative parts to GW kits for a decent price? Back when Inquisitor was first released (an awesome game), one of the many draws sold to me for investing in the new game system was a pitch by a salesman at GW who ensured me Forge World were going to make a range of parts – alterative heads and guns etc- to accommodate the model range. Nothing promised by the salesman materialised from Forge World. The alternative parts for Inquisitor were for a time produced by GW, which for me seemed like a missed opportunity on Forge World’s part. I assumed offering customisable arms, legs and heads along with new tanks, dreadnoughts and buildings was the whole point of Forge World.
Also it is worth mentioning the issue of customer loyalty. Would Charterhouse be as successful if GW customers weren’t so encouraged as to look elsewhere for models? The reputation of GW as the evil corporation, together with prices, only fuels this kind of thing.
The simple fact is Chapterhouse wouldn’t exist is GW still had its bits service, or if Forge World wasn’t such a Charlie-Foxtrot with the pointless re-iteration and do-overs and repeats and rehashes and same dame new dress models.
Forge World occasionally makes a new vehicle or unit, then has to chase after itself with rules to use it in game, then more often than not these rules get grouped together in an imperial armour book that cost as much if not more than the model. Its not just Forge World’s fault there though GW, when it was writing the Dark Eldar Codex really should have stuck in the raven that Forge World do instead of two similar but not close enough fliers.
Even on the rare occasions when Forge World actually does something new and useful they stick it in a pack in such a way that it becomes unattractive, Imperial guard shotguns for example, if you’re going to have your vets rocking the boomstick option you’ll want all 10, or at very least 6 armed with shotguns(plus three flamers and a sergeant with a pistol and power weapon/fist), but the Forge World pack comes with 4 shotguns, moulded as one piece with the arms and torso, and a plasma pistol.That means you can’t use the shotguns with Catachans and you’re paying about twice what you should for 10 resin shotguns and getting 4.
Possible scenario – GW hit yet another company with a legal threat, this time the target doesn’t back down and finds legal representation to fight the threat – before the case hits the courts GW work out that Chapter house is selling something they don’t make and therefore they have little to from a court case while the costs would be considerable especially if they lose and have to pay Chapter House’e costs as well – result is a meeting outside the court where a “licence deal” is made – GW’s IP is protected, Chapter House is now licenced to produce products specifically for GW’s range and neither has incurred any legal costs (Chapter House’s legal people are going pro bono and GW has a legal dept. on the payroll)
Maybe a dream but if Chapter House’s people win a case in addition to the court costs it could open the floodgates for companys producing the same sort of kit as CH.
Last yer GW lost sales but increased profits. As a shareholder, that’s good, but, long term, bad. If sales are dropping fewer people are buying. That means, long term fewer people are growing into the hobby.
OK, Chapterhouse are riding on the coat tales of a successful story but then have GW paid Michael Moorcock for Elric with chaos and law, Haldeman, Lovecraft, Tolkien? OK, the slant is oftimes different and a massive amount of work has gone into creating a unique universe but there is still a lot of derivative work in there.
Should they protect that IP? Yes, but I’d prefer more effort was put into expanding the hobby base and bringing players in instead of fighting it out over IP that is as old as time itself. Bring in the fans, don’t isolate them. Ever increasing profits on reducing sales is not going to work in the long term. Kids these days have too many distractions. Proving to them that GW doesn’t care about the fans and really cares only about control just makes them our Microsoft. Wouldn’t it be better to be liked and friendly and use that goodwill to attract gamers than to drive them away with business?
GW has every right to protect its interests and copyright. But imho their attitude shows a lack of good judgement. As has been said elsewhere by others, to buy some shoulder pads from a company like CH means that there will have been some GW marines sold to put them on.
Coming from a modelmaking hobby I find the way aftermarket companies are treated in the gaming hobby industry rather appalling.
I realise the analogy has some limitations, but one never hears of Airfix or Hasegawa trying to prevent some cottage industry from stating on the item that it is intended for their kits, let alone threaten to take legal action against them. On the contrart there is often a good raport between the parties.
In last month’s Airfix Modelworld magazine, there are listings of new releases of 2 or 3 Airfix kits. The rest consists of what their direct competitors are doing as well as the aftermarket releases.
In an article about the Hawker Hurricane in 1/72 the author states that the Airfix kit has accuracy issues and shows how to improve the Hasegawa kit.
Can you imagine that sort of White Dwarf?
The problem stems from at least the perception that Games Workshop equate themselves with the gaming hobby, that they are seem to believe they are the hobby.
There are cases of piracy in the modelmaking industryand that is rightly frowned upon.
But staing that your resin is intended to fit a Tamiya 1/48 F-18 for example, is accepted as the norm by everyone. It means taking precise measurements from a given kit (hopoefully) so that it will fit. There are even “correction sets”, thereby publicly saying to the kitmaker, you got it wrong old fruit, and no one bats an eyelid.
Sorry but the child has grown up and has become something of a monster. As I understand it Jes doesn’t own the company and for all of his creative and emotional investment the company is owned by people who don’t have that same committment to the game.
Here’s some questions for ya!
I’ve written some stuff… games I mean… some of which are held in the BoW archives awating a premier.
You guys (sorta) know me. Would it be OK if we here at BoW produced some stuff, on a small scale, but because we’re BoW (and have a big profile) others decide to produce similar stuff that can be used with our games.
Would that be OK?
Would it be OK for them to make money on it without crediting us?
Would it be OK if they were small scale too?
Is it a matter of scale?
BoW Andy
My initial response would be yes as long as the extenders credited you as the source of the original work.
If I had a company manking kinis out of my writing characters then I’d hope they would credit me with the original ideas, hopefully driving sales toward the original work. If someone were to start making an absolute fortune out of it I’d expect a part of that to come to me – it was my idea, after all.
Surely that’s the intent – to grow the base diversify the market and flipping well sell things?
Well said Warren!
Apologies for any ramblings, I have a shitty cold and my brain feels as though it’s in the vice like grip of a giant’s fist!
As an illustrator (part-time or a whenever-the-hell-I-get-hired-illustrator!), I have been in a similar situation to Chapter House, where in my case, I was asked to create character images that were based on films, TV or cartoons. I would have to create them so as they were recognisable as the original but were obviously a spoof of them, and not an exact copy.
It wasn’t something that I particularly enjoyed, since I like to create my own things instead of using someone else’s designs and re-jigging them. It was only when the client started to ask for celebrity portraits or caricatures instead that I started to enjoy doing the work for them, as I could flex my creative muscles and do a painting from scratch; only needing a photo reference of the celebrity and I was free to create.
If I were to see my own paintings re-jigged/copied, especially those I’ve been paid to create, or even more especially those not commissioned and created for my own enjoyment, and then sold on, that would make me feel absolutely put out and angry. I wouldn’t want anyone profiteering from my own creations, not after the time and effort I put into thinking and creating them.
Yes, Chapter House do fill the gap for the bits GW and Forgeworld don’t do, or don’t do yet, and for a fair price. But to blatantly use GW intellectual property without asking was a bit silly (stop that, it’s got too silly now, far too silly).
They must have some of GW’s books and noticed the copyright info inside, surely? Practically every word, symbol and image is copyrighted, registered and trademarked, so, although it was a worthy endeavour to create parts for the game they love, it was inevitable that GW would be on their case.
@maelstorm – I don’t think it’s a fair comparison to make between Ford/Shelby or IBM with miniature sculptures, except in the case of Carol Shelby creating his own model of a car.
The after market for cars is practically a given, and for machines of all types.
The difference between cars/machines/computers and miniatures is, that there is a whole other level of thinking that goes on behind them.
And it’s the thinking that goes on behind them that makes GW stuff what it is, what its worlds are and why we’re a fan of it all. The historical references, the sci-fi and fantasy, even modern day references are all carefully woven into their ideas to create something new, and for those who spot them it brings a whole other level of enjoyment out of their stuff. Something that you can’t compare to after market car or computer parts.
I agree that to be able to buy spare parts at a cheaper price should be allowed, in fact my favourite shop, waaaay cheaper than ebay, is letthedicedecide.com. You can get whole sprues on there, as well as tiddly bits for under 20p!
The difference here though, is that they aren’t copying GW and selling their own versions, they are selling GW parts, not unlicensed designs based on GW’s property.
Now, I know Chapter House DO create and probably spend as much time as the GW design team thinking and designing when they create their parts. All of the new sculptors for GW are basing their ideas on what’s gone before them too. Alas, they are getting paid by GW to do so, and Chapter House are not.
To allow any company, however much a fan they are of yours, to create products that use your own ideas and names without your permission, is never a going to be allowed.
Unfortunately for Chapter House, they have broken copyright laws, and unless GW allows them to exist as some sort of subsidiary, perhaps of Forgeworld and to work with them, then it seems Chapter House are doomed.
If it were up to myself, and I was GW, I’d look at Chapter House’s work, and if I thought they were good enough, offer them employment as freelance designers and start a whole new string of operations where freelance sculptors are free to create new parts and sell them. Although of course, GW would get a cut of the profits, as I’m sure they would with their Ultramarines dvd.
Let’s hope that it goes well for Chapter House. 🙂
Apologies again if I have missed having a point, I have reread this before posting, but the head cold gremlins (gretchins?) have addled my brain beyond all hope! Arrr me harties, tis time for blackcurrant flavour Lemsip, and to enter the land of dreamzzzzzzzzz…..
I have to say that honestly I have not followed this with much interest as it is GW policy to quash the lil guy at every turn…or has everyone forgotten what happened to Armorcast? GW has been moving towards a corporation for some time and IMHO has forgotten all about the hobby…I have seen the games change for almost 30 years and have seen the company change along with them…they have forgotten their loyal followers in favor of profits and in doing so have some where decided that creativity is solely exclusive to them when it comes to the realm of WHFB and 40K…
I can remember when gamers and hobbyists were encouraged by GW and Citadel to be creative and share that creativity with the community…Is that not what Chapterhouse and other “companies” have done?…Were they not started by Gamers and hobbyists who feel as much love for the genre as GW does? (which I question sometimes with the releases I have seen over the past decade)
All I can ask of GW is….Where is the Love?
I hope chapterhouse wins.
I can’t see that happening, but more importantly I don’t actually think it would be a good thing for us for CH to win. As much as GW is the corporate big bad, grown too big too fast and made poor choices for us, do we really want then to look at 40k as an unenforceable copyright and start fresh?
To be fair to GW they have been round a long time 🙂
I don’t see anything fair about GW anymore to be fair about. I despise them. And sure start fresh, 40k is getting old and not really going anywhere.
i agree it will be a great day if chapterhouse win gw dont care for the hobby just the money i have been in the hobby for about 12 years and gw has gone down hill so much.
Agreed, the GW now is not the GW of my childhood back in the 90’s, has fallen very very far. Like Old Republic to Empire fall.
i really like what Warren said here. And i can sympathise from the designers point of view whole heartedly. Chapterhouse has never really been a producer of high end quality work, and has been dipping closer and closer to GW IP for a while now.
Now, MaxMini and Scibor are two out-of-GW companies that do it right, they keep their noses clean by steering clear of directly copying GW products and run with their own naming conventions. Plus having thier own style of design and production helps them stay out of GW’s way. Basically you will know a Scibor product when you see it, you will know this stuff is not copying GW but i think in many cases compliments it.
Im sure the designer of the Land Raider kit can appreciate Scibors pannels that happen to fit the model which only add some nicely themed decoration, and the plethora of shoulder pads and so on.
As much as people see the IP Hammer and go “oh god not again GW wind your neck in” <– a personal quote of myself. I think in cases of model production it is deserved.
What i see happening and what i want to continue to happen is Forge World being the main "official aftermarket" store. Where you go to find specific bits for specific regiments/chapters Where as, like me, you run a custom army then you can go to Scibor or MaxMini to get that special something to set your stuff apart from the rest.
to conclude, GW i hope, will let there be room for other companies but should provide plenty of GW specific aftermarket kits and bits, and let the others do something different.
Well said John. If GW actually put forth an effort to provide a healthy after market for their products, this wouldn’t be an issue. Forge World is nice, if a bit pricey, but when was the last bits pack that GW released? Crimson Fist stuff, if memory serves well?
I think, at this stage, GW is capable of providing more products to their customers, but they have such a monopoly on their corner of the market, they have no competition to keep them on their toes and diligent.
I always get a kick of nostalgia when I read through my old White Dwarfs, some dating back to the late 1980’s. Games Workshop used to promote the hobby across the board, but it seems that over the years they’ve turned more towards the business side of the industry than the hobby side.
If Games Workshop actively promoted their product, supplied affordable bits, released product more often than once every 4-6 weeks, and encouraged the hobby as a whole, instead of creating a monopoly on the market and then sitting back and riding it out, I think you’d see less 3rd party manufacturers creating products based off GW’s IP.
Until then, I’m intent to sit back and see how this unfolds. It’d be a nice slap to GW’s face if somehow CH came out on top.
For GW, get back to the root of the hobby, and worry less about the bottom line. Quit trying to sell the next new flashy thing in order to get an influx of buyers, then dump em and move on to the next group with a new shiny release. Support the hobby, and people will flock to it.
My $0.02.
I have no idea how this will turn out or what the specifics are. I do think chapterhouse foolishly walked a very thin line and that paulson walked a wider one (look out MR DANDY) Having said that I feel like GWs position concerining ip is akin to James Cameron taking GW to court over Tyranids.
Games Workshop is a lot like Daphne at the moment. It’s put on a lot of weight and it’s incredibly unattractive but Niles can’t see this because all he looks at her and sees the trim women that he fell in love with. It’ll take his neurotic brother (here represented by other gaming companies) to make hi see what his bride’s become and make him take affirmative action!
What I’m trying to imply is that Games Workshop is not the same company I bonded with many moons ago, it’s done some pretty ugly things in order to survive but that’s the way of the marketplace and we can’t blame it for trying to remain alive. Still, I’ve fallen out of contact with it recently… I’ve always been able to swallow the high prices because they provide a level of customer service that I’ve been extremely happy with but lately GW store have become staffed by teenagers who know absolutely nothing about what they’re relentlessly pushing in me. I had to explain to a store MANAGER what a Grey Seer was. I mean, come on… Skaven are a flagship range, I know staff can’t be expected to know everything but they should at least have a working knowledge of the armies in the boxed introduction games! I had to teach the same guy what frag grenades did, and he immediately followed up my lesson with “Okay… So how many of the new Blood Angels do you want to pre-order?”.
I have no idea where I’m going or what relevance this has to anything, but GW really need to get their arses kicked. I don’t want to see them fall, but something NEEDS to happen to remind them of what they are and how far from that they’ve strayed. There’s still people in there like Goodwin and Matt Hudson who seem to be honest hobbyist who do it all for love… but for every Phil Kelly there seems to be three Robin Cruddaces. I’m taking my money elsewhere- not because I hate them. But because I love them, and I want them to be better than they are now.
AND YET they won’t go affter blizzard.
say what you will but gw is trying to get a monoply IF they where pissed about “product infringment” why are they not taking on blizzard for starcraf? beacuse blizz will pound there face in to the ground through court. there picking smart battles.
that seems more of what jes would be pissed about his law being plagorized and yet if you don’t take it as faltoury you are a prick in this day and age.
god forbid gw trys to take out the other companys by making better kits at lower prices.
being stagnant doesn’t make you the best choice.
“Here’s what I mean. You spend your life creating something, only to see others coming along and at best making money of your hard work, but at worst abusing it with bad design and miserable quality.” Your quote Warren.
First, if it is of poor design, it should be our choice to apply poor parts or high price parts onto our models. If I want to buy the cheap crap to put on my car (going with the Shelby post line above) then my car will look cheap and that is my choice, or maybe I enjoy my shelby but the cheap stuff is the only upgrades I can afford.
Second, I look at this thread as similar to politics. Capitalism or Socialism. Of course I am purposefully blowing up the point….
Either we say shut down all other creative outlets, others whom might become better just because they make something real similar to ours. We provide state run healthcare and no options. Everyone is guaranteed a job no matter how worthless they are and there is no need to work hard because there is no competition. People become complacent and quality really starts to suck. Kinda like GW. They want the whole market to themselves and no “Aftermarket parts”.
Where would we be if Ford was the only automobile manufacturer in the world? Demand would drive the prices up so high they would be unaffordable. Or, they would downgrade quality to feed the masses…. they would stagnate because who cares what the people want… they have to take what we give them…
I personally think “aftermarket parts” should only go to motivate the GW executives to make better products. To make the parts we are apparently seeking. To make the customer WANT to buy from them not HAVE to buy from them.
At 30 years old, maybe Im the last remnant of a group who believes in capitalism and the need for more than the monopolized stagnating “Artistic’s” who think the stuff their company puts out is the ultimate in design and quality.
After saying all of this… I have never bought a non-GW part. But this thread makes me think that I should start buying these “aftermarket parts” just to encourage some growth.
I don’t think GW is particularly stagnant, they just don’t move the way we want them too. You’d have a hard time finding multi-part plastic kits with a better level of detail than GW get out of new kits, a lot of companies come close and a fair bit cheaper but nothing beats it, even some resin stuff isn’t quite there, chapter house being the ur-example(as in Uuur that head sculpt is horrible and the combi bolter looks like a shoebox ).
If you want to look at release schedules the Super Perrio Brothers do a new plastic historical kit about once every 3 or 4 months, Wargames factory once every 6 to 9 months, thought the new management claim that will improve. Privateer Press is really the only company in the same quality as GW that brings stuff out as regularly and they’re pretty comparable in price and tend to have a few parts that could look better if it was a small piece EG the handle on a khador jack’s chassis.
I don’t really see the comparison to car companies and after-market parts either, due to how cars are standardised(ie all have the pedals and wheel in roughly the same place and run on one of two fuels) and not a specific IP that originated with the company, unless Gottlieb Daimler posts here to disagree my opinion is that all car companies feed off each other anyway and have a common set of rules.
GW’s IP is different to cars because its not an industrial standard. Its a work of fiction. If anyone started selling something that looks like plastic Jedi Knights, and starts calling them Jedi Knights Lucas’ Lawyers would go in deep and hard but if it was a model of “a guy in a bathrobe with a sword” they wouldn’t bother, because while everyone knows what it is it would be damned hard to prove it wasn’t what the seller was claiming instead, or a parody etc that would be covered under fair use or something.
I don’t think it has anything to do with the artisitic side of GW – I thinks it’s exactly the non-creative, business people who are frightened by the drop in performance of the company and think the only way to drive to sales is an almost homicidal reaction to anything that directs attention away from the companys own products. If Chapter House were making box sets of tactical marines that looked almost identical to GW’s stuff and marketing them as a 40k product then fair enough but if it was legal to make the products and describe them as “sci-fi soldiers arms” or whatever but illegal as soon as they say the products fit on a GW terminator then it just seems like a bit of a reach to say it’s IP infringment (but then again I’m not a lawyer or creative)
That’s the thing, GWs IP doesn’t cover 28mm armoured troopers or science fiction knights or even oversized pauldrons and gauntlets round kneepads or bell-bottom greaves, but it does cover “power fists”, “thunder hammers” and “Space marine(r) rhinos”.
I’m one of those who doesn’t really support either side.
The argument that Chapterhouse shouldn’t have used GW names is a fair one…but really the world seems a bit mad when “salamander shoulderpads” breaks the law but “lizard shoulderpads compatable with GW miniatures” does not.
Anyway companies who make parts compatable with GW miniatures, who do name them in the overly wordy but safe way, which are designed from scratch to fill a gap in GW products are totally fine by me.
The issue of inspiration vs ripping off someone elses creative work is a massive grey area, but just look (especially back in the younger days) at GW itself. How many design similarities, names and parodies have GW used based off other peoples works to create their world?
So yeah like I said I don’t really support either side, by the letter of corporate law Chapterhouse probably cocked up with the naming of thier products, but GW have little moral highground in this.
Honestly I don’t care which way it goes… both ways are bad in the end.
In the U.S. we have so many damn lawyers suing companies for other companies or for people who want a quick buck… thats what it comes down to.
But the overall problem is this.. for every lawsuit either side gets into. The overall market will jack prices to pay for the legal department… come on guys tell me I am wrong… I beg you. In The U.S. a stupid lady spilled her coffee between her legs while leaving the drive through McDonalds restaurant. She sued McDonalds and won millions because the cup didn’t say that the coffee was hot…. Never mind the irresponsibility of putting coffee between your legs while driving. But the overall problem was that along with other trivial lawsuits like this one, McDonalds restaurants had to increase product prices to compensate.
If some one tells me this doesn’t relate…. they are ignorant.
And yes the car example relates to this quite nicely… you just aren’t looking at it right.
We should be allowed to choose the “aftermarket parts” and they should be available. If GW is too lazy, too scared, too occupied, or too whatever some of you will try do say to give them an excuse, then other companies should be able to take up the mantle of supplier for the parts that GW is not willing to or whatever reason not to supply. As another person has said on here… If we buy a pack of shoulder pads from Chapterhouse… we will likely be putting them on the GW products that we bought them for. So GW is making their money. And if we put them onto our pretty pretty princess dolls then GW has no freaking reason to complain.
Yes, I understand the issue of copyright infringement and naming the models either directly or indirectly… but don’t you think that chapterhouse and other companies making these parts are only giving a reason for us to buy more GW products??? I mean who is going to order a set of Land Raider doors and not buy the land raider to put it on?
This conversation is so dumb in reality. No, I don’t want to see GW falter. But at the same time, I don’t want to sit on my hands waiting for them to listen to my emails about how if they made this product or that product that we gamers would buy them and be thankful.
I don’t think the car analogy holds water, 90% of cars are assembled from mostly standard parts e.g. screws, nuts, bolts, hoses, batteries, servo motors computers etc I’m not just talking about Skoda and SEAT having the same parts (and almost exactly the same cars) because they’re owned by VW, I mean they all use the same technology to get going now as far as I’m aware you can’t trademark, copyright or patent the dimensions of how a body panel or bumper attaches to a car(unless it was an entirely new system like some sort of molecular frequency bonding or some other technobabble) so its legal to make a body kit that fits a given car’s basic frame. What it wouldn’t be legal to do is make a copy of the whole car(parent groups owning multiple brands notwithstanding) or a distinctive part of the car to fit on a similarly sized car EG the ford oval badge or the front end of a Porche 911.
That’s the equivalent of what chapter house have done with the tau walker, those are hammerhead railguns on that thing, and its shown painted with tau iconography on the chapterhouse website, in effect what they’ve done there is slapped a Ford badge on their new car that looks quite like a fiesta. The Rhino conversion pack is a really odd one, on the one hand that is an exact likeness of a model no longer produced by games workshop altered in dimension to fit a model that is produced by them. Do GW forfeit the rights to the design of the old rhino by producing a new version? I don’t think that they do but it may be so.
I don’t think GW would bother to sue over any of the other stuff there if it weren’t using their trademarked (or at least associated) names without permission.
Having said all that I’d refer back to one of my previous posts Chapterhouse only exist because of poor management decisions by games workshop.
When I started collecting 40k you could go into games workshop, flick through a giant catalogue that had codes and references for practically every single metal part and plastic sprue GW had ever made, then you jotted the numbers down on an order form and took it to the till just like an in store mail order for the direct only stuff works now, or if you had access to a credit card you could just phone up the trolls in mail order and nine times out of ten ask for the bit you wanted by name and they’d help you get the right one without the code.
I really miss the old trolls 🙁 you could ask them all sorts of stupid stuff and they’d never get mad at you…
@cazboab yea you are right… the car example makes no sense… as you said… nuts and bolts make a car right… just like resin, pewter, plastic make up a model marine….. How could I be so blind.
Also you said Chapterhouse has slapped Tau parts on something… you know you are right there also. Because tyranids aren’t based on the movie aliens. Nor are necrons based on the movie terminator. Yea GW has never slightly modified someone else’s work right?
Lastly, as I said before…. If you want to buy the crap from CH instead of the quality from GW…. thats your own freaking choice. Like I said.. your models will look worse, but if that’s the way you want your “Galactic Army” to look rather then your “Space Marines”, that is your own choice… I for one want the choice. Even if I don’t take advantage of it.
I’ll Concede I’m not really able to explain how cars are different. You’d probably have to agree with me in the fist place to see were I’m coming from on that.
I think the problem here is legality is most likely on GWs side were morality most likely isn’t. Chapter House only sells a lot of what it sells because GW won’t(or wouldn’t- in the UK store at least, a little while before the suit was filled they started selling metal thunder hammers…) sell them separately but they do sell then in an £18-£25 box set.
In an ideal world GW’s response to the conversion pack businesses springing up would have been to have Forge World set up a few sprues of bits, cast straight off the plastic or metal component that’s already in a £20+ box set sold by GW, and that would have shut most of them down by just driving a wedge into the gap in the market, in fact they could still do that now, but they won’t they’ll just keep stomping there legal jackboots.
I will agree with you.. at least for now just on the subject that GW/Forgeworld has several “Should have done’s” Don’t get me wrong.. Im not really taking sides in this issue. I think CH is wrong.. but so is GW. Just on different fronts.
Personally, I doubt that it would have gone this far if Chapterhouse hadn’t blatantly used Games Workshop names and terminology.
When you looked at their site, it could quite easily seem as if they were trying to pass off their own stuff, as official Games Workshop addons.
And that is a massive big no no.
If there was the GW logo somewhere I would agree. But I doubt if anyone who has been in the hobby long enough to be wanting resin conversions would be deluded by the website.
To be fair adisclaimer should be on the Home Page to provide absolute clarity. But I see nothing that would warrant a belief that CH are trying to deliberately deceive.
TBH reading some of the comments on other websites, I get the impression that there is a lot of hostility towards CH, when other companies out there are doing basically the same thing. Apart from putting on their own excellent Space Celts in Future Galactic Warzones, why does anyone buy Scribor shoulder pads? What else are they going to be used for, as a cricket box for Action Man? * lol We all know the score whether it references GW or not.
Are the full Sribor figures only used in dioramas or non GW tabletop wargames?
I don’t hear Ronnie of Mantic banging on about only Mantic figures being used for KoW.
iirc during the BoW interviews it was mentioned that Mantic figures could be used for “other games” nudge nudge wink wink say no more guv’nor 😉
I will concede that CH have been sailing close to the wind. But again can anyone show that GW has lost revenue as a result of CH products? Has GW’s reputation really been tarnished?
If CH products are as bad as some people have said, they won’t ultimately last long before going belly up. If they are good and they sell it is because people want to convert their models and have something more unique. There is a market for this sort of product that GW don’t wish to address.
The original article at the head of this discussion was about creativity. I don’t see throwing it over to the laywers as a very creative solution.
*Of course not! Action Man has nothing to protect! lol
I believe GW’s brand name has indeed been tarnished by the lower quality of certain CH items, but that’s a matter of opinion…
The point is, Chapterhouse sells, even if only a little.
Since they sell original products, products you can’t find on the GW catalog or from another company, they’re going to sell some anyway. They could stay afloat for a long while. The key here isn’t quality : they’re a small company with less functioning costs than GW, and they make products that aren’t found anywhere else, so they can risk a little sloppiness.
Granted some of their products are truly original, but looking at the ChapterHouse range, one can’t help but think they set out to make some money by making a sub-GW range, an erzatz, instead of producing a narrower range of quality alternative models, artistic hommages and complements, as Scibor or others did.
CH also profits from the merchandising campaigns and the “name” of GW… Blatantly, without subtlety. And some of their products do compete with the GW range : One could buy cheap parts from ChapterHouse instead of buying expensive boxes from GW for spare parts for conversions (everyone knows many of the GW boxes are just the same basic sprues over and over again, with one extra sprue for ornaments or spare parts specific to the chapter or regiment advertised on the box).
In any case, GW can’t let any of that go on without losing some credibility…
Since apparently GW isn’t planning on selling any parts or adressing the aftermarket issue (maybe it isn’t cost-effective enough for their business plan, who knows…), they take upon themselves to “police” the market, sueing the people who “piss on their boots” and leaving the people who pay them sufficent hommage alone… Picking their battles carefully and with a no-nonsense “a dime is a dime” policy. Do they have the legal right to do so ? Yes. Do they have a moral high ground ? Not really, but that’s besides the point.
It’s a logical decision given the assumptions GW must make and their general policy, even if I (and others) can certainly find many reasons to disagree with it. As arrogant and silly as the decision to sue may seem, it’s not a bad solution in that particular case… They have a right to defend themselves.
More importantly, I think GW had it coming. They took many “wrong turns”, which led to unwanted competition arising (for which we should be thankful, mind you)… GW is not bad for the hobby, but they certainly aren’t that good either. They’re certainly not “The Hobby”, as they claim, they’re no longer pioneers, and they could (and should) do a lot more, a lot better IMHO.
I agree… CH shouldn’t be naming their part the same… but all in all as I said.. If GW doesn’t make what we want. We should be able to buy from people who do make what we want. As I said, quality suffering, if we want their crap we should be able to buy it.
Yes, they surely have a right to take legal action… however, maybe only a few of us noticed the recent rise in prices. I am willing to bet the will keep going up for every lawsuit they make. Maybe they should just realize they are in a competitive market. The more people we players get into our field, the more demand for the products. The more demand, the more diversity in styles. The more styles, the more quality range…. so on and so forth. We cannot wait on a single company to make all of what we want.
This is all like saying that if a small company makes Colt M-4 assault rifles for GI-Joe action figures that Colt arms and Hasbro should go after the toy gun supplier… its freaking stupid.
My wife just pointed out… It’s like Coke and Pepsi colas. Maybe they should start suing the hell out of each other because Coke make soda with caramel color and carbonation first. They are practically the same products. Similar tastes. Both are in a 12 oz can. Both say you should have them at your super bowl party. They both are the perfect companion for chips and dip.
Yea I know, not the same as GW marines either.. but the point still remains. If coke was the only supplier for soda. We would have a limited choice. Markets need to have choices. Even if some of them are choices that are for the other. Which is why I don’t see the problem. CH products are used with GW products. I think CH is in reality helping GW. BUUUUUUUTTT there are so many of you that only see it as the short guy stealing the tall guys wallet.
Making parts, especially when it is parts that the creating company is not producing, should not be a problem. As long as the parts are not exact copies of existing parts, or are not about to be released by the creating company.
GW is not about to make a bunch extra parts. In fact they leave important critical parts out of their armies for months or years. Sometimes the parts are never produced. They are just acting like a faceless corporation in that they do not want someone else to profit off something they could POTENTIALLY profit from. Even when they have absolutely no intention of releasing the parts these after market people are producing.
The only good argument I can see is the use of GW product and intellectual terminology in these after market parts sites.
I always struggle when i hear about the “creativity” of GW. GW has been built on copying other people’s ideas. Space marines and Tyranids come from “Aliens”. Elves, Dwarves, orks and so on come directly from lord of the rings. Dark elves have been stolen from D&D (I have always wondered why they did not sue GW on this). Chaos come from Michael Moorcock’s books. Everything GW has ever made is just a copy of someone’s else idea (i think the only exception are the skavens).
So GW has benefited from the fact that the real creators were too disorganized or not enough corporate minded to sue them when they stole and copied their ideas. And now, they start to play the IP card ? This does not seem right.
Just to add a nerdy, note, feel free to skip it!- Although Orks/Orcs as monsters come from inspiration from the Lord of the Rings, where in his books they were corrupt Elves and in Warhammer they’re just brutish monsters; the word ‘orc’ is an old Anglo-Saxon word used to describe foreigners, in particular the invading Normans who were made up of different Germanic tribes, blah blah blah history de blah…
And the Tyranids are also inspired in their look by the bugs in Starship Troopers, the marines in Aliens were just humans and not super-duper bioengineered 8ft tall sci-fi warrior monk/knights.
I’m intrigued to read Michael Moorcock’s books now!
So GW copied words or got ideas from JRR Tolkien, Blizzard who were going to make a Warhammer game for GW but didn’t for whatever reason, and ended up with a load of artwork and ideas and decided to re-jig it to make WoW and used Orcs copied from GW who copied the word from JRR Tolkien, and JRR Tolkien copied history. I don’t know who in history came up with the word orc, but I bet they’re peeved that everyone’s been making money off of them ever since.
There are no completely original ideas, everything is based on something else or has elements from something else in it.
I don’t see that “everything GW has ever made is just a copy of someone’s else idea” as in made an ‘identical’ copy from whatever source, but they have obviously put in a lot of stuff that they are fans of into their models and fluff. I think the reason for that is the same reason why you or I like a particular army. I one army I like the look of are the Necrons because it’s cool to have an army that’s like a bunch of Terminators. But James Cameron’s Terminators aren’t an ancient race of people who have contained their souls within robotic bodies with some influence from ancient Egyptians thrown in.
They haven’t ever simply copied someone else’s ideas, otherwise from the outset, people would have looked at their minis and read their fluff and said “They just copied everything from popular culture, what a load of *@#*.” And no one would be interested in what they make.
With CH, they’ve used GW’s IP and copied from it to have parts to sell. It’s a shame people who are fan’s of GW can’t get a license to produce work based on their IP, but if they did, I think GW would probably have strict guidelines for them to follow, just as George Lucas has for his IP.
I recently just finished reading about how there were tonnes of knock-off star wars gear, a lot of it were light sabres with a red blade, because, for some weird reason, Kenner toys were only making green or, even weirder, yellow bladed light sabres! So like CH, they filled the gap that Kenner missed out. Until they got put out of production when red versions were made by licensed toy makers.
In the end, Lucas got his IP sorted out so that only proper, approved merchandise got sold, including the Darth Tater version of Mr Potato Head!
Lucas’s ideas are all based on something else, or copied if that’s how you like to view it (Jedis are basically Samurai, the Force is based on Chi or Qui energy from China and Japan). But anything that’s blatantly a Jedi and has Jedi written on the item description when it’s not being sold under license from Lucas, is copying. And the same goes here between GW and CH; CH has used GW’s names for parts based on GW’s parts and is selling them without GW’s permission.
As other people have said, if they had been more canny like Scibor, they could have carried on enjoying what they’re doing. It’s a shame that fans of a game are being hunted down by the very makers of the game they love. But unfortunately it was something that was just waiting to happen.
Well Orks are brute in lord of the rings too. And in fact, GW copied Dungeon&dragon more than lord of the rings – but D&D copied Lord of the rings. The green orks come from D&D, so do the high elves, wood elves, wererats (which became skaven in warhammer), trolls, ogres, dark elves, and so on. Open a D&D monster manual from the early 80’s (so before warhammer was published) and you will find all the creatures from WFB.
Regarding WH40k, well, the inspiration is quite clear : Aliens was released in 85, and WH40k began a year later, surfing on the space marines versus aliens wave. I remember it quite clearly, i bought my first space marines because i had seen aliens. They added some changes to the space marines to avoid copyright (GW was smarter then than CH is now). Ork’s vehicles come from mad max, and so on.
Honestly, the real quality of GW is that they managed to make a profitable and coherent business out of the ideas of others. You cannot compare GW to Georges Lucs : Star wars created his own universe, long before GW even started to steal ideas from others.
So sorry, but to me, GW has no real IP. Thats why they dont sue many people – they know their position is quite weak. However, i agree that CH went too far, because they really did not even try to pretend they were not copying GW products.
All I can say is CH had it coming, anyone who knows anything could tell that. There deserves to be a decent aftermarket. GW cannot have a monopoly on parts in the legal sense, MaxMini etc will continue to thrive as they are operating within the law (whether you agree with what they do or not)
BUT have you actually seen how many of thier trademarks are registered? Not many I can tell you. The rest are just under normal protection because, in my opinion, many could be challenged as ‘generic’ If you dont know what I mean listen to 40k radio segment on trademarks. I mean, BAE, Rolls Royce, and all manufacturers of Military machines don’t sue Airfix for making kits do they? Airfix are totally recreating they’re IP afterall. Probably CH get forced to change what they do, GW doesn’t change cos they think they’re right and wrongly ignores everyone casting thier own parts at home. DOOM for GW I say (not that I’d like that, just seems so)
@tumblebomb brings up a good point. Casting at home. Many of us do it. It’s just as wrong as copying your favorite album onto a CDR and giving it to a friend. Just cause you didn’t charge your friend for the copy doesn’t mean you aren’t cheating the music industry out of a sale. But why do we do it? Music is getting more expensive because of all the suing it does. Same with resin casting your own parts. In 1998 I resin casted over 300 terminator models for my friends and club mates. It was for a special game in which required terminators. In 1998, the models were still pretty expensive for how the U.S.D. was holding up then.
So here is the next issue for those of you rooting for GW. Should Games Workshop start suing all the companies that make at home resin / plastic molding kits? Surely they should because people that cast their own models are making GW loose potentially thousands in revenue a year right? And those individuals that cast their own models are in essence the little guy right?
Once again, I don’t want to see GW go down… but they need to re think how they run their business.
I wonder what will GW do if they found this website XD
http://www.miniatureshobby.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=46&zenid=3d51910a4797de04f283a0894498fd82
lol @darknightdrako you soooooo just made me happy. I bet 20 people just scrambled to their emails to let GW know about that one. I might just go put a few orders in real quick before they get a melta to the face.
Hum…. This is about IP. It is also about trading for profit – currency if you will. All law is commercial… (I’m just thinking out loud atm). Either get rid of the run for profit (laughable since we all have bills to pay), or get rid of the IP infraction. I wouldn’t see an issue if their items were labelled as “Warhammer compatible” instead and made no mention to being of warhammer itself.
To me, IP seems like a bit of a joke, a hindrance, a pain. The whole “for profit” motive seems to be riddled with flaws.
Do we take the game/story as-is (with all its flaws, production-wise or otherwise), or do we improve on it, breaking free from market monopoly.
All this stuff seems entirely contradictory to a free market.
As I can agree with both sides and disagree with both sides of all of our points made here… there is one under lying fact.
IT WILL NEVER STOP.
They (music industry) made 8 tracks, people copied the tech, then at-home people copied the music, tape players had the same problem, then CD, and I am willing to bet if they build another form of media… it will get copied.
Same deal with all other products on the face of this planet. If one person can dream it and another can build it… surely someone else will copy it. No matter how many laws, sanctions, warning, threats, etc occur, they will always try.
This is why I mentioned stagnating earlier. Even though some of you say GW is not stagnate. They are trust me. They are the first kid in the neighborhood to get the newest toy. Now everyone else on the block wants some of that action and they are all getting it.
Now of course, this metaphor isn’t spot on, but you get the basics. They built something that we want, then when they don’t build enough variety ( and they have plenty of variety but…) someone else tries to sneak in and make those parts. Sometimes they (CH & others) get stupid and make it too similar or name it the same. But you can’t stop them. You can sue them until your legal department is blue in the face but all you succeed in is making your prices so high that it is too expensive to buy or get new people into the market.
So to explain why they are stagnate, they need to reinvent themselves all the time now that others want in on their playground. They will never succeed in stamping out all of the knockoffs. Does anyone know how much it costs for a lawyer to go 3000 miles away to battle a defendant in another country?
My father invented a product called the “Creep or Seat” It was a mechanics creeper that they lay on to work under the vehicle. His headrest and part of the back would come up to make a seat for when working low on the side of the vehicle. He built a prototype that looked manufactured professionally. Took it to 12 companies and the sixth company who’s name I will not slander, said they couldn’t make it because of “pinch points” and returned the prototype. A year and some months later, the twelfth company claimed they couldn’t make it because a company just released the exact same model three weeks before at a mechanics convention. It turned out that the 6th company made it “exactly” the same… right down the the name and the color of the upholstery. The “pinch points” were never modified. My dad even had a “Trade secret” stamp for the thing. They are supposed to prevent theft of intellectual or material property rights prior to patenting. My dad’s lawyer cost $700 per hour to battle the companies lawyers a couple hundred miles away. Needless to say, we ran out of money.
So what have we learned? Suing CH is a futile endeavor which will only hurt GW both in the way some of us look at their “morality” “corporate decision making” and continuous inflating of prices.
I think this is pretty open and shut if you ask me. GW has every right to sue Chapterhouse because CH sold products that were for 40k (and used the 40k name etc.) without a licences.
A extreme example is this: If I killed someone who was a murderer, is that wrong? I killed someone who has done horrible things and killed other people without a reason. Yes, he probably deserves to die, do I have the right to kill him? No. I would be tried for murder just like the murderer I killed. It is still against the law for me to kill him.
Now, yes GW looks like the bid and bad corporation that is killing the little guys, but it comes down to a matter of the law. GW has the right to sue them because they used GW copyrighted marital to make a profit. Is it morally wrong for CH to do what they did? Probably not, but it is still against the law.
Now I agree with what a lot of the people have been saying, that GW should do more with the after market products, but that fact still remains that CH used copy righted marital without GW’s consent. I probably seem like a jerk and stuff etc. but like I said, the laws the law, and if you break it, even though it is not morally wrong, then you have to pay the consequences.
@darin Yea… I think you didn’t read all of the posts. I along with everyone else on this thread pretty much agree and know that GW has a valid lawsuit. We know and agree that CH shouldn’t have expected to get away with it unchallenged. The matter boils down to what is best for their business? Sue the hell out of every copy cat and drive their own prices up to take care of the cost? Yet even if they do that, another copy cat will crop up and start anew.
I’m not trying to sound defeatist, but it is rather futile. We consumers are the ones that have to pay for it in the end, as GW will follow suit with every corporation that sue’s over IP. The prices will go up and up. As if the little plastic model’s aren’t expensive enough already.
Also as I mentioned in a couple of my posts, if CH’s products suck like so many people suggest, then they must not be too big of a threat. I know In my threads I sound like I am on the side of CH but frankly, I won’t buy their products because I prefer the GW quality over the CH cheapness.
Ultimately, if CH wins this case then GW have only one option left and that is to make everything that has ever been mentioned or drawn (even in passing) in every codex, book and article they have ever produced so as to stop other companies following CH’s lead and making their own copies. What this means for us gamers is that when a new codex is release the only things in there will be the already existing models and the new releases, which will all have to be released at the same time so no one else can rip them off. Then no more of that army until the next edition of the codex.
GW don’t not make something because they are too lazy, scared or occupied as someone else put, they do it because it would ruin it for every Warhammer gamer if they were forced to release everything for one army at exactly the same time. I’m sure more people would complain if after a new SM codex GW release 10 new box sets then nothing else SM related for the next 5 or so years.
I wonder if CH would be so happy if GW actually started producing the items they currently do, and to a much higher quality. I have no doubt that if CH do win this case then that’s the only thing GW can do. Sure some people will still buy from them, but given the choice between an official Jes Goodwin sculpted and fully licensed Iron Snakes shoulder pad and a cheap knock off I can guess where the money will go. In my opinion it’s the final act for CH either way.