Once Upon A Time In History Competition with Ben & Gerry
May 17, 2019 by crew
Big Ben from 4Ground and Gerry are back in the studio to discuss...something? Anything? Perhaps everything!
The pair pose an interesting question: if you could design a game or set of games around a snapshot of history to be played within one day, what historical campaign would you choose? It's a subject that, in between the myriad tangents, sparks a fascinating conversation about times in history where multiple coincidences or flairs of destiny have affected thousands of people. For example, Gerry talks about Rorke's Drift and how the Battle of Isandlwana took place not 10 miles away from that confrontation.
So, it's competition time! In the comments below let us know what campaign you would choose to represent across several games. There are some restrictions:
- It must be from the same military campaign. However, you are not limited to just historical campaigns. (The Fall of Gondolin anyone?)
- There must be a minimum of two games. Imagine you are setting up a two or three-course meal for you and your wargaming friends.
- Each game must be on a different scale.
Check out their last video on terrain design here
There will be a prize, as determined by 4Ground. Good luck to all. We can't wait to hear what you come up with!
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I didn’t realise Bloodnok was at The Battle of Isandlwana
http://nylon.net/goons/bloodnok/pams-insurance-gas-stove.mp3
If you search 6mm The Battle of Isandlwana you’ll found some lovely games . Ruleswise Bloody Big Battles might work well
I was thinking of Gettysburg as well for moment in history but would also choose Battle of Ain Jalut 1260 or the Battle of Tours in 732
Tours would be very cool.
The two armies faced off for a few days so plenty of skirmish potential there
To my mind Tours and Ain Jalut are probably the 2 battles fought in the dark ages/mediveal that changed history
Tours is my Number 2 Most Important Battle of All time only behind Milvian Bridge (Constantine becoming a Christian and the battle that made him Emperor).
I think I would choose Ain Jalut where the Mamaluks stopped the Mongols sweeping through the Levant and then onto Europe
For me the first course has to be the 16th June 1815, two battles on the same day, not that far from each, the Battle of Ligny and the Battle of Quatre Bras. I would even try and play these in real time beside each other, with different generals on different sides. Something like 28mm Black Powder for these games, though I’m not sure I’d really want to paint that many Prussians.
Then for the main course, Waterloo!!!! 18th June 1815, 2mm and just have a massive game, trying to include everything. It would also be nice to model the contours of the battlefield so you can see how Wellington hid his infantry.
As a side dish, the Battle of Wavre would also be taking place. If we really wanted we could link all the games and if anything happened differently in our games to what happened at Ligny, Quatre and Wavre it would then have consequences for Waterloo.
There is actually someone out there with Waterloo done at 1:1 (or something else insane like it) in 20mm isn’t there? Maybe if we smashed him over the head err convinced him to loan us his minis we could rent an airport runway and have a game?
42!
I assume this is the amount of tangents that they went on? You have done the lord’s work!
We were, as always, laser focused. In. Talk topic. Out.
No faffing around, others should take note of the professionalism we demonstrate
Professionalism, with fully trained camera operating personnel behind the camera.
actually for some reason no one wanted to hold the camera for the quick 5 min chat we were having so they put them on stands and left.
A film based on the Kenneth More film North West Frontier could be fun
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I really want to know what 4Ground are changing with the Base Render!!! Ben started talking about PVA and never said what they are changing. It is one of my favourite products.
Also in Gerry’s idea for the Great Escape, it could easily be changed into Escape to Victory with a game of Subbuteo at the end 🙂
Please @warzan @lloyd make a mini series with @avernos and Big Ben and let them ramble of Ye Old Games Workshop games. And other “tales from the crypt”. And call it “B&G I Scream”. Please! I need it!
Battle Ideas:
– Mad Max (the orignal one). At first you play as good cops agains a group of gangers (28mm skirmish. Judge Dredd rules) After that you have car chases using Gaslands rules. Toy cars ftw!
– Star Wars – The Empire strikes back. Beginning with Star Wars Pockemodels für the hoth ground assault. After that a chase through asteroids with X-Wing rules. Finally escape from Cloud City using Imperial Assault or Legion.
– Highlander The battle before MacLeod get’s immortality in 15mm, after that his time in WW2 in 28mm skirmish and the final fight against the Kurgan in 54mm (or bigger?) with Inquisitor ruleset 😉
So many ideas…
I would love to do a campaign based around Alesia. The thought of the all of the assaults going on with 100,000+ troops fighting across multiple fortified positions is too good to pass up.
Start out with a skirmish game (my group uses homebrew rules for pre-gunpowder skirmishes). This takes place during the building of the walls facing Alesia. The Gauls under Vercingetorix launched cavalry raids against the Romans wood cutting parties and construction parties. Caesar put legions in front of the construction sites to defend them. Gallic cavalry attempting to raid, kill, and destroy while being opposed to legionnaires on foot would make for a good battle with many objectives.
The second would both be fought using Kings of War Historical and focus on the beginning major engagement during the siege. There was one ravine where the romans could not build a wall. Two legions were encamped at that point to defend it. I would have a decent sized (1500pt game) battle in which the Gallic relief force attempts to assault the ravine and break through while the two Roman legions attempt to hold their position between the two ends of the wall.
The third game would be the second day of the engagement. This time it would zoom out and cover all of Alesia. I would use the variant of DBA that my group has come up with. We modified DBA 2.2. The relief force would again assault the gap at the ravine while the besieged forces in Alesia would make diversionary assaults at other weak points in the wall. The Romans must control the ravine and all wall sections they built at the end of the game.
As a Thousand Sons fanboy I’d love to do the Burning of Prospero. Would need to go reread the Forge World HH book on it to refresh my memory about all the various parts of the campaign, but I think I’d perhaps do the bulk of it with Epic/Titanicus, then zoom in to 28mm and use either the 30k rules, or nick Cam’s idea and adapt 8th ed 40k, to do various key parts of the Battle of Tizca, and finish it off by maybe using the Sterling Bridge in 54mm idea you guys had to do the duel between Magnus and that dog Russ in 54mm. Not sure what ruleset I’d use for that, maybe Inquisitor to bring in a more RPG element to it rather than it being a regular 40k battle or some sort of duel board game. That said, not sure what the rules for primarchs would be considering regular marine are OP in Inquisitor anyway; could perhaps bring them down to those regular marine stats considering there’s not going to be anyone other than the two primarchs and Russ’ two puppies involved I suppose.
Alternative idea could be to do like Gerry’s idea for Stalingrad and having multiple tables on the go with each being a different part of the city, although the tricky thing would be coordinating the games to remain in sync so units can move between tables as they move through the city, especially as the Thousand Sons had mini Stargates that they used to teleport around the city, which could make for a nice tactical element with the Sons’ Supreme Commander able to order the Sons’ players to divert forces to other tables and the Puppies’ Supreme Commander having to deal with adapting to that. If I was doing this, then I’d stick to 28mm for all these tables, with the aforementioned 54mm duel to cap things off (assuming the Sons aren’t able to pull out a victory and stop Russ getting that far that is), and possibly doing a Titanicus game on another table/afterwards to play out the attack on the Mechanicum enclave which was allied with the Sons.
Regardless of which approach I took, I’d also like to have the marines not be the only focus and would include the Spireguard regiments that fought alongside the Sons, and the civilian population that would have been caught up in the fighting, especially as the FW book on the battle mentions that the Sons of Horus detachment that accompanied the Puppies spent the battle rounding up the civilians and herding them onto transports to secretly take them away to experiment on.
Timers. Give each table 20mins per turn.
And a whip to crack any players getting distracted and idly nattering instead of playing? ?
Talk of Black Hawk down reminded me of a Flintlock game a friend ran called Black Orc Down. It was a Black Orc trying to escape after crashing his hot air balloon.
I think/hope a film would be epic with army’s of balrogs, cold ones, an various other beasts attack Gondolin’s walls
Great siege 1575, Guns and drums for the initial attacks on the 3 cities, something akin to black powder for the final assault on St. Elmo’s Sharp Practice may also work, a manipulation of Reich Busters for Lascariss defection to the knights, back to Guns and Drums for the final assault. something 28-32mm for the Spanish mercenary’s and knights last charge sweeping the ottomans from the beach.
Alternatively “Death of a legion” either teutoberg forest or the destruction of the 9th Legion north of the wall, start small 9/10mm initial engagements as the Romans take casualties slowly increase scale between games the objective is always the Eagles, Victory for Rome means at least one eagle returns Roman Lines the celts Need their trophies to shame rome to stay at the current border
For me it’s got to be the Highlights of the Anglo-Mahdist War (Specifically 1884-1885).
Start with the attempted escape of Colonel Stewart from Khartoum. He went via steamboat up the Nile and was killed. In reality he ran aground and was killed by Mahdists but it wouldn’t be too hard to make some kind of game up where one player tries to avoid the cannons and rifles of the other and escape. The Mahdists mostly just used captured Egyptian Gun Crews shackled to the guns so the British player could have a handful of Sabotage cards to mess with the cannons and the Mahdists could also have some small boats in pursuit.
Basically something like this from the (horrendously innacurate) movie Khartoum. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpI-qTu_lPQ I mean come on you can’t fire a late 19th Century Cannon with a bit of fire on a stick. Props for actually having a Gardener Gun rather than a Gatling though.
Then the British Camel Corps Marching on Khartoum to relieve General ‘Chinese’ Gordon and first fight the Battle of Abu Klea.
World Famous Hero Colonel Burnaby charging around with his double barrel shotgun (he got killed), Mahdist’s get inside the British Square while the British struggle to get their newfangled Machine Guns to work. Probably use a system like Black Powder for that one.
Then Move onto the actual assault on Khartoum, focusing on the street fighting. Use a skirmish system like The Men Who Would be Kings and have the capture of Gordon’s House as the objective. Historically despite the direct instructions of the Mahdi General Gordon was killed.
Then wrap it up with the First ever Australian Organised Military unit ever sent into an active war zone. The Australians mostly just got stuck in the back and used for guard duty until a small unit of Mounted Scouts (that wouldn’t totally happen again 15 years later would it…) was asked for. These Australians had some minor skirmishes before they went home.
Probably The Men Who Would be Kings or even Legends of the Old West would be best for this one.
You could play the Anglo Zanzibar war in real time
Possibly this is “too soon” or would be offensive or not appropriate for some in my part of the world and I have debated over whether to type this or not… but I think it would it be interesting to spend a day wargaming the Williamnite War in Ireland, specifically, wargaming a song called “The Sash”. It is a rather famous/infamous song and would be offensive on one side and glorified on the other. Just for reference, while I was brought up on one side, I sit right bang on the fence, like most things in life, I’m rather agnostic.
There are four battles/events referenced in this song, and a goal would be to learn more about the history of these battles, and hopefully dispel a lot of the myths and legends that abound about this period of time in Irish history. As I have associates (they are only called a friend if they would give me a kidney should I ever need one) on both sides of the community I think it would be an interesting day all round (and I reckon the craic would be mighty).
So the four battles/events are the Siege of Derry, Enniskillen – which I have always assumed to references a group of loyal Williamites who launched raids against the Jacobites from the town of Enniskillen (Derry and Enniskillen were two of the few places that gave resistance to the Jacobites), the Battle of the Boyne (which one side celebrates every year) and the Battle of Aughrim, which I believe was run as a game at Salute this year by Crewe & Nantwich Wargames Club called The Horror of Aughrim, 1691.
The Siege of Derry could be explored in a game about how the siege was broken. Basically a British Warship engaged the shore defences while another ship rammed and broke the boom that went across the River Foyle. Two ships then delivered food to the city and the Jacobites gave up the siege and retreated. We’d probably have to home brew this game, someone in control of the cannons on the shore and then appoint Captains of the ships to control them going up the river. The ship that broke the boom was the Mountjoy and I think it was HMS Dartmouth who engaged the defences. There were other ships involved but I can’t remember the names. I’ve no idea what size these ships were but I’d guess this would be better played at a relatively small scale.
The raids from Enniskillen could be explored with a Skirmish game, obviously in 28mm. This is a part of the conflict I genuinely don’t know very much about and would have to do a lot of research and reading on.
The Battle of the Boyne probably isn’t that interesting a battle given the amount of attention it receives. You could possible pick one aspect of it and game that, but it wouldn’t be one I would actually put a lot of effort into recreating it. I’d perhaps even just do a demo of the battle with counters or devise a quick play of it.
Aughrim is the Battle I would be most interested in exploring. It is often forgotten but was probably one of the bloodiest battles seen in Ireland if not the British Isles. I’d probably go 28mm and replicate Crewe and Nantwich’s game as it was stunning in the photographs I have seen of it. Ruleset, I’m not sure as again my historical knowledge of this battle is limited, though I do know the Williamites had to wade through water a one point that came up to their waist and the Jacobites fought very bravely.
I have some other ideas, as Ben and Jerry have got my brain spinning and I am going to add them, whether you like it or not 🙂
I would be tempted using Pendrakens League of Ausberg range
Another idea inspired by you mentioning the League of Ausberg would be a day of battles in the same war but not necessarily between the same opponents, or even on the same continent. Take the Nine Year’s War, for example, you could have a big battle in Ireland or mainland Europe, and a skirmish or two in North America and do some naval battles as well. Again, probably don’t know enough about this period to really give a more definite idea.
“Welcome to OnTableTop…”
“Can I go Down on that”
“I wouldn’t”
Ah this will be good.
The guys who ran away with the Flag were Lieutenant’s Coghill and Melvill. They were both killed taking the 24th’s Colours across the Buffalo River and the Colours were lost. Then a few days later a British Patrol found them washed up downstream.
Check out Arch Warhammer’s videos on the “Siege of Vraks” on Youtube, that would make an epic Campaign but it would probably take months to play.
I had an idea a year or two ago of doing a “What If” Campaign about Napoleon’s 1805 Invasion of Britain.
Opening with Airborne Balloonists (The French had a Balloon Corps a few years earlier and the British were afraid of an airborne assault for some reason) dropping in England, a Few Pitched Battles and some Naval actions, I should dig it out and work on it some more.
if I remember correctly Napoleonic also attempted the construction of the first channel tunnel to that end also
He did.Well he thought about it a bit. Trafalgar finished off any ideas of invasion plans
Yes and no. The invasion was already called off before Trafalgar. Trafalgar did stop any future invasion plans.
All I can imagine, with all the Dark Age historical discussion, is having an episode with Ben&Gerry plopped in robes in something like a scriptorum just having a banter in period with preferred beverages of the time for levity. I don’t know if a feature length 3 hour film will be the best idea but it worked for Avengers Endgame. On second thought there was a small boat tour that set out for something like that and lasted for a few seasons (Who’d be the Skipper?).
Hell, that might be an interesting sidebar game for a WWII Pacific campaign of a co-operative nature, in the vein of Red November, in order to assemble a ship and get off Gilligan’s Island before the Japanese invaded.
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/36946/red-november
Looks like my friends @brucelea and @damon and I will be recreating a portion of either Gold or Sword Beach (Overlord Landings / D-Day) in Panzer Leader over the weekend of June 8-9. @amphibiousmonster and I did all of Juno Beach in Panzer Leader with the Canadians a few years ago. Sadly, we can’t make it to the D-Day Boot Camp, but we can’t let the 75th Anniversary go by without some kind of commemorative game.
Not sure if it fits the criteria of the competition, but thought it was worth a mention. 😀
Battle for Ortona and battles to get there. Any scale (flames of war)
Isandlwana is a difficult battle to recreate because it’s so spaced out. I’d split it up with the main battle line and then Durnfords side of things.Then have Coghil and Melvill running for fugitives drift.Market garden is another good operation with lots of thing happening at the same time. I still have Dark future sitting on the shelf complete with 30 year old paint jobs uurgh
Way back in the late 90s, my friends and I loved to do full scale Battletech weekend. Since FASA had Aerotech, Battletech and Battleforce, it was easy to represent the tactical and operational levels.
Finding the time and rules sets nowadays (not to mention players) is a difficult challenge.
But it suddenly occurred to me that with a community like this one, the games wouldn’t have to be located in the same geographic area. You could could have overall commanders that see the operational level and local groups could represent the tactical teams the commanders send out.
Oriskany has probably thought of executed this already with historical, so I am probably starting to ramble on like Ben&Gerry.
I like the basis of GW’s Urban Warfare expansion, as well as Mantic’s KOW: Vanguard tie into KOW (where the winner of the skirmish gets some perk for the next battle).
But what about logistics? Holding a location gives you bonus supplies or makes certain reinforcements available.
Anyways, thanks for causing my trip down nostalgia lane and twisting my idea knob
Another campaign of interest would be Spartacus.
First battle would be the escape from the ludus. I would use the Sons of Mars rules to fight a small skirmish prison break scenario.
The second battle would be the Roman siege of Vesuvius by Glaber. Bands of gladiators repelling down the mountain to flank the Romans and drive them off. I would use homemade large scale skirmish rules.
The third battle would be a large Kings of War Historical game. It would cover the slave army’s last battle at Silarius River. The slaves trying to break Roman lines and kill Crassus to escape the river banks and retreat into the mountains. KoW’s ability to have historical figures do the epic deeds that are recorded in ancient sources would allow a fun battle true to the sources as opposed to the actual truth that we only partially know.
I’d like to do the days surrounding the Battle of Towton from the WotR period. Meant to be the largest loss of life on a battlefield in England, it shows how gruelling and bloody older battles were and something we kind of forget what happens.
The sub games would be the day before towton on the 28th March, the Yorkist armies marched along 3 routes. Each of these routes were aiming to either get troops to Towton, or to try and muster support. This would be a saga esq scale, but also maybe mini saga scale, where you still need to show up to 500 men a side.
Each route has a purpose and different outcomes and sceanrios. For example the Yorkists came across 500 lancastrians guarding ferrybridge, due to the bottleneck it was a fair fight which the yorkists wons and also killed Clifford. They then marched onto Towton – so one game good be this battle, where the fight dictates leaders that make it to towton, yorkists might always win, but could suffer exhaustion, or other losses (if you want to be accurate) or play it out and see if Clifford holds the bridge and the Yorkist army is then depleted.
After the scenario games – the scale moves down to 10mm and becomes a big club game where everyone manages a household. Towton could then be fought, taking into the results of the smaller scenarios. So then on the 29th March towton happens.
Lots of use for longbows and hand to hand, plus a huge terrain tactical advantage to use, plus the weather played a hude role, snow for frostbite and exposure, wind causing the Lancastrian archers to be ineffective shooting into the wind etc etc, so lots of things to play around with. The 10m scale lends itself to being able to get across the huge numbers upto about 100,000 soldiers taking part across both sides, with about 30,000 dying in the one day.
Lots of chance to paint up liveried armies, heraldry and banners aplenty.
Think it would make a great gaming experience to highlight a pivotal moment in the House of York and the start of the plotting to get the throne back and that aided Tudor to come and end the Medieval period of history at Bosworth.