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Operation: Icestorm Mission 5 Battle Report (PanO vs Nomads)
August 1, 2014 by lloyd
It's the second and final game of the week and the stakes are high as Carlos from Corvus Belli and Killian of Beasts of War take to the tabletop and battle it out with the PanO and Nomad factions from Operation: Icestorm!
The guys are going to be playing Mission 5: Take R&D from the Icestorm booklet and a Corporate Security Unity (CSU) is on the loose! Let's see who can take her out first and be the winner!
Would you play it differently?
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I reckon Carlos has got the best job in the world !
Well looking at how Infinity is developing, I d rather say he DOES the best job in the world.
(massive prize come to meeeeee !)
I think Alessio Cavatore has a better job but carlos job it pretty damn good as well
I think Carlos definitely has an awesome job, but I think I might prefer Killian’s job instead. 😉
Oh looks like this will be good! Finally more than “cheerleaders” fighting each other!
Brilliant
I can’t deicde who to play when my Icestorm arrives. So, whoever wins this video gets my support.
go Nomads go !
pewpewpewpeeeeeew dice ^_^
I’m surprised how good the paper terrain looks. Too bad September is so far away.
Indeed, this needs to come out next week, or the week after, I’m flexible.
Awesome battle.
Cant wait for september
Go Nomads!
Good Game Guys!
cool game!
This has been such a great week of content, thanks guys.
What a awesome set, I really wish I could find the money and way to get to Gencon so I don’t have to wait.
Really looking forward to getting the Infinity Operation: Icestorm starter box, learning the game and getting other involved. Great work from Corvus Belli and Beasts of War! Awesome game and an awesome insight!
I thought the VIP model was to play a more decisive role in the game and not how pretty model would have an end as soon
Yeah. I was expecting a big roar from her. Instead we got a tiny whimper.
Two criticals right off the bat stopped her from doing anything. I imagine that she would have been a much bigger impediment for both sides if that hadn’t happened.
Looking good!
Very cool missions set that come in the box so far.
Curse this Internet connection on the countryside, loads way too slow!
Nomads GO! Stomp the army of order into submission.
PANO Wins, even if the lose, aleph will rewrite history for them.
OH SEPTEMBER!! WHY!!!
Good BatRep, Thx.
Another top vid need to wait for icestorm noe
Lookin’ good
I’d take the Pan-O, as they have the akali jump trooper, which is always going to be a potential threat!
Nice batlle report.
What is still unclear to me, does the faction logo really replaces the “1”? At least that is the way it is played here.
Pretty certain that is correct 🙂
What about mission 2,3, & 4?
Guess you’ll have to get the box to find out :p
The new movement of the HI could be a nice change
my favorite game got better- perfect!
good game
Who needs missions 2-4? Not me… got to have something new when the box arrives!
That was a really nice video!
So even I could follow this game. Though I still need to get my head around all that number crunching, i.e. when to use plus or minus what. But a good show, nevertheless.
I’m extremely pleased to see that a game essentially between two starter sets Is played in under an hour. I realize it’s on a smaller table than usual, and the rules have been dumbed down slightly for the starter box, but it still bodes well for being able to get a lot of games played in an evening.
AH, come on Nomads!
I desperately want to get this box, but I am the only person I know in my area who has even heard of Infinity, let alone willing to play, and I don’t want something this awesome to sit around unused. But great job Corvus Belli!
Oh why isn’t it Monday yet 🙁 Can’t pre order till then.
Going to treat myself to the Gencon pack, and be broke for a while 😀
Must admit I am not a huge fan of the “semi English” nature of setting up an account on CB, but I’m sure I’ll get my stuff.
Now roll on Monday, and then September!
Best line ever, “I do not want her … to be alive.” Heh! But it’s a shame that Corp Security went down so quickly. I’d love to see her in action.
Totally a ‘LOL’ line 😀
It was a shame they Corporate had such little impact. Maybe should have had a better cover save or TO or something…
A fun battle to watch. I can’t wait for my copy come September!
Great game! I still didn’t get the cover rules correctly I guess… Is the direction of the shooting miniature important? In other words, is it enough to touch some ppiece of terrain or does the terrain needs to hide the miniature from the shooter?
When will the 3rd ed. rulebook be released?
Cover = Your model has to be in base to base contact with cover/terrain/building/etc AND part of your models base must be obscured from line of sight of the model targeting it.
However if your model is in BtB contact BUT the model targeting you can see your entire base (IE nothing blocking LoS) then your model is not considered to have cover from that particular opposing model.
Hence why most models ‘peek’ around corners. ;D
Carlos..”The most important thing, did you have fun.. the answer is yes..”.. cracked me up.
Is there a limit on how many orders you can spend on one mini per round?
@deathjester72
Not sure about N3 but in older editions the answer to your question is no. You can spend all orders on a single model if you want. But the full game also has rules where groups of similar troops (in the Boxed game the examples would be the Alguaciles or Fusiliers) can be activated together with a single order, moving and shooting as a unit.
Thanks for that 🙂
Speedy HI, gonna be messy and fun 🙂
GG guys. That was quite enjoyable but wanted to see how cc works in this game if it even exist.
It exists but up until now it was difficult to get close enough without taking multiple rounds to the face. Sounds like 3rd Edition rules may have changed that.
CC uses FtF (face to face) rolls, like the ARO shooting in the demo clips, only using CC weapons naturally.
great battle!! I love the Grenzer and the Spektr!!
“overconfident, like Spain in the world cup” hahaha that line cracked me up. Man I’d love the chance to play against Carlos!
Damn, now I wanna play a game, but no time this week.
Really like the powered armor getting a movement bump, 4-4 is a pretty big deal to me- especially in scenarios with limited turns. I hope this is an across the board change for all the powered armor troops as it make sense and my Hsein really wants it!
lol @ “Like Spain in the World Cup”
Look at the mobile briganda bounce all those shots like a true heavy infantry. I’m liking the servo muscles.
Awesomeness!
Great stuff
Excellent stuff, I can’t wait to get my hands on the box!
I’m hoping this release will spark more local interest. Infinity is such a good game!
Nice! I can’t wait for the box!
Corvus Belli rules with this new starter kit !
Yeah for the sexualized MINI’s
So i really want to win! (slips money under the table, more than you’d think, less then the cost of the item)
Infinity is so awesome! That other company *cough* Games Workshop *cough* better watch out.
Liking the changes so far
A nice, fast, amusing and clear batrep / rules explanation. Excited for the new rules / streamlining, looks like the pace and dynamics of the game aren’t drastically revealed even with such a small demo area.
4-4 HI will mean a lot more of them on the table. I like this.
Like I said lets make August disappear
I’m surprised to see that the Reverend has ARM that high, combined with mimitism its a surprisingly tough model for a lady with her bosom unarmored.
It’s not about how much armour you have but where you place it… 😉
Thanks for all the great Infinity coverage this week.
Great work as usual guys
other than being hard to understand carlos, this is great stuff
I’m a long time infinity fan, really Can’t wait to get my hands on this set. Wish I could afford to preorder it!
Nice job, thanks!
Nice to see how the game plays, I want my Icestorm box now! 🙂
September is too far away!!! #firstworldproblems
Good video, Carlos cracks me up talking about the female fusilier and the world cup, among other things. Nice one.
Bad luck for my chosen faction but Carlos is so entertaining. :o)
My 40K Dark Angels are up on eBay right now earning me the money I need to buy Operation: Icestorm. It looks brilliant!
Cheesecake Fusilier, best sequence of the whole video.
A really informative video I must say…. yes, yes, quite.
Damn was hoping for all the missions leading up to this one. Can’t wait for the boxed set, pre-ordered mine. 3rd Ed rulebook can’t come soon enough.
I love the Carlos grumpy-face when the opponent rolls well ! 😀
Seems like the game is evolving into the right direction! A lot of the things I was annoyed wiht get fixed.
It makes sense to have power armour HI move just as fast as LI
Well Carlos… i would have liked Killian to explain everything to us, sadly Carlos cut him off brutally : D Pro Gamer mode… probably
I still have not fully grasp the play-style uniqueness of each faction of Infinity.
From this video, all I see is that both Nomads and PanO have roughly the same kind of weapons, both have their share of good shooters as well as a model with good armor. But they both plays kinda the same way. Can someone enlighten me up?
They simply play without troops that have access to the crazy fancy stuff. The army lists are rather simple as are the loadouts.
They’re using similar combat roles on both sides with only minor variance just so they don’t flood new players with too many rules.
Bear in mind that even the more specialist troops present in this battle used simplified rules compared to what they have in the full ruleset too.
So far as faction variance, they all have some model they can take to fill a role, however it’s the special rules and such that create variety.
As an example, Pan-O are excellent at shooting, have great armour ect, they excel at mid-long range firefights (as you no doubt saw in this battle).
Compare them to another faction called Ariadna though, who have some of the worst shooting in the game, however, they play in a much more guerrilla style, camo and suprise tactics being their best friend.
then you have something like the Japanese Sectorial Army of Yu-Jing. Despite being a game based heavily around brutal shooting combat, the Japanese are very close combat oriented, so they have rules and nifty things to help them get up close and personal (almost every model they have is skilled in CC and is armed with a Katana of some sort :P).
Oh thats why their playstyle look so similar. I’m very interested to start Japanese sectorial army, and your description of them made me even more interested of them. They sounds brutal.. 😀
I need my Icestorm box now! September is too far away…
that female fusilier FTW! she made the game!
Nice battle report. A good job making sure it’s clear what is happening on the table.
I thought Carlos was going to move the Father Knight into CC at one point, which would’ve been fun to see. Ah well. 🙂
How long do I wait for the set now?!?
Bostria so badass playing!! haha great game!
looking great
Good battle report. I’d probably have played it differently, because I’m not an expert at the game!
So Excited! Attending my first ever Infinity demo on the 16th of august in Utrecht The Netherlands.
Well done Carlos, but Corvus Belli should use someone like James M Hewitt, someone with horrible luck that looses most demo games. It might attract some more players.
This was a fun battle report. I was hoping to see the knight get into melee. I was impressed with the heavy armor troops. I think adding terrain to the starter box was a great idea.
Awesome battle report, cant wait for September 😀
I wish I lived in an area with a bigger gaming community. =(
The terrain set which will be available further will be in standard dimensions (120x120cm) ?
Go Nomads!
We need more of these !
I just can’t wait for my pre order to arrive. It looks great and plays fast imo.
What a brilliant box, two new facction coming home.
A really good demo guys! Commiserations, Killian. Carlos, I take it that Fusilier is being recommended for Indigo?
Erm…? Did… Carlos… just… Boom Shake The Room!?!
“Here I go, here I go, here I go go” at 9:23 😀
Brilliant! 😀
“Is this understandable and fun with all the miniatures and stuff? The answer is yes.” Asked and answered. Lots of fun moments in this match.
This really is an attractive demo starter. I’m looking forward to getting my own games in come September. Now if they’d just announce the 3rd Edition release…
I’ve enjoyed this week a lot, somewhat sad to see it end. I guess they’ve done Infinity theme weeks twice before according to their YouTube channel, so maybe it won’t be long before we get another sequel. Next summer: Infinity Week 4 – The Return of Carlos Myers.
Great video. I rather like the way infinity plays. It’ll be this or dropzone that will be my next game after Wolsung is sorted 🙂 probably should just sell all my 40k 🙂
lol @ the Pan Oceania sniper! You just can’t trust the odds when wargaming
Go Nomads!!
I like the joke about the futbol world cup…
B
It really seems like a lot of things have changed subtly, I noticed for example that the Mobile Brigada seemed to have both an increase to BS and to have lost Valor: Courage, so I wonder if those are changes to the OP: Icestorm profiles, or if those will be carried over to the full edition? In any event I am super excited to get this and 3rd Ed, and start developing new tactics and reacting to new meaningful choices and tactics by my enemies.
Man that’s the job I would like to have.
Kilian…you just wasted a camo trooper….good game Carlos!!!
fun video but I was hoping for more rules new rules.
September cant come soon enough. I’m bummed I never tried it before.
I have never played infinity but some the scenarios seem rather fun (and funny when it come to privet Jenkins). I think I will look into the rule set at some point.
So who do guys think is going win, my money is on the CSU agent.
I really like the changes 3rd edition is offering us so far. Can’t wait to rulebook “in the flesh”! 😉
I’ve missed some good play videos. More, more, more!
Very nice battle report ! Fun and didactic, thanks.^^
Now if you could all kindly take your comments down that would be greatly appreciated.
Good game
Nice battle!
cool game
I like it ^__^
I am starting to get excited, I can’t wait to get to play with the set myself
Good game
I am so excite.
Seems like the play area was a little small for that many models, but a decent scenario nonetheless
Love this. Between the explanations of the rules in the first batrep and the pace (and slaughter) of the second I’m getting a feel for this game.
i am so ready for this to come out already
good send off video
Well played Carlos, I cant wait to try this out
I can’t wait to see the new troop profiles, and for my Icestorm box to come in. Beautiful models.
well played
The dice were clearly on Bostria´s side 😉
Go carlos!!!!!!!
Hehe! I like how serious Carlos seem to take it. 🙂
Dude you let the krug down to pan o filth!
Good game.
This is great!
nice to see the new set in action!
like the back and forth, keeps both players engaged.
Come on September! I want my Icestorm box
47min 26 sec of pure pleasure
Thank you !
Can’t wait for the box to arrive
Carlos has the expression …. My body is ready.
I love these PanO sculpts!
Awsome game. PanO seems the factions for me. Mainly I live that big Knight exclusive to the faction in this set.
Thanks for the report, guys
Nomads FTW!
Been sat on the fence too long! Fantastic starter…..pre-ordered. Credit cards bulging, what with Dust, Wolsung and Infamy KS’s. Wife’s gonna kill me! Anyway, roll on end of the month.
awesome sauce
Oh God – what a bloodbath.
I can’t wait to get my hands on this box and start going through these training missions. Seems a perfect way to get my friends playing too.
Gotta cheer for the blue guys, PanOceania are just too cool.. but then again so are Nomads… but also YuJing.. and so are Ariadna and Aleph… but what about the Combined Army? Or the Tohaa?! can’t choose..
Nice battle!
An army of just healers doesn’t seem so crazy, right? right!?
Nice battle report though I kept thinking ‘why doesn’t he use suppressive fire?’ But I guess that’s a more advanced rule?
“Make it beautiful.”
Ooooh Man, can’t wait to play this. #DatFatherKnightTho
Here’s hoping my first game will be as enjoyable!
Game 5! I’ve missed 3 games some were….
Excellent way to round out an exciting week leading up to Infinity’s starter release next month…
Well, I need this box, regardless of rent. Hopefully I can live in it!
That looked fun 🙂
Very interesting…
cool batrep!
Looks like good fun.
Massive prize? 😛
Great game lads, congrats Bostria for a very decisive win. Lookin forward to getting my hands on the box set.
Looking forward to the release
Very entertaining. When is operation ice storm available for general release
wonder if hacking changed?
Hey i think i already commented but then you guys updated the cover page clipping with the fire thing… that shit is legit.
So, excited. Perhaps if I went to the mountains and froze myself, someone can defrost me when my copy of the game arrives?
Cool demo. Didn’t expect to see the neutral model get taken out before it could do anything.
12 days til GenCon!!!
Would love to have a game against Carlos one day, it would be super funny 🙂
Really enjoyed the previews this week.
I think I am going to look at getting round to painting the infinity models I already have.
This just gives me more to look forward to when Icestorm comes out ^.^
It’s great to the see all models in action and how each can be useful.
What happened to the CSU?
Interesting playthrough.
I wonder if there would ever be larger playthroughs by CB between more typical lists in the future?
Carlos clearly used Corvus Belli mind-link powers to make the models roll in his favour, except that one turn where he gave Killian hope before dashing it!
go team red!
Looks good. Can’t wait for september.
I probably would have made the same mistakes. Why not place the spectra in an intrusion position from deployment?
Apart from the fact that that rule is in the next clip. Silly me.
Each video gets me more geeked up
Looking really good.
Really glad you guys put out a second bigger battle report, in addition to the beginners one, thank you!
Been wanting a demo like this all week!
wonderful stuff
Great video there, I enjoyed that one
I wish the Father Knight would engage into the melee, he just needed to jump down and slash at that acquiler.. but alas.
Counting the days to the release now…
Loving the way third edition looks, will be eagerly awaiting the actual rulebook.
Good show!
Preordered my copy!
Infinity is getting better every time
thanks for the vid
Fantastic game and a fantastic walk through guys, many thanks ;0)
Looks even more fun
good demo, some fails but normal
Can’t wait for September. You guys have done a brilliant job of the starter set
Can’t wait to crack this box open
Great game – good stuff from Killian.
Good game gents. September can’t come soon enough!
I like the improved graphic…captures the moment 😉
A very nice way to see the new rules in action!
Good battle guys.
Awesome, can’t wait.
Nice battle report
PanO got the deserved victory!
Great and funny video!
Good report, but am I right that the rules in this are not the 3rd edition rules? but something in between 2nd and 3rd? Looking at this as a way of getting latest rules – so my question is will 3rd ed rules be required on top of this? If anyone has the answer would be great to know
You will have the basic rules in the Operation Icestorm starter box set, which will be the basis for 3rd Edition. You can then either buy the 3rd Edition rulebook when it is released OR download the FREE rules PDF from Corvus Bellis’ Infinity website.
Thanks @spaced2020 forgot the free rules policy CB has, hmm this or dungeon saga…
For me, Infinity is going to be better and better with each BoW video!
I’m really tempted to pick up the new infinity starter set for my local gaming club. It would make a nice refreshing change from 40k.
Pre-order the box…pre-order the box, I must obey, pre-order the box
Time moves as slow as a bubble travels through glas when waiti g for 3rd
Excellent coverage am very tempted to get into infinity now.
I’d love a chance to win some Infinity minis!
Interesting
Unlucky Killian!
Servo-muscles for HI will be such a gamechanger, indeed upcoming Yu Jing Invincible army thanks!
Nice battle report, aside from luck (or more precisely lack of luck) from both side, it shows how in Infinity the game develops along the choices of the players and the tactics used influence the outcome. That’s why to me Infinity has the best potential of many other games today. Apart from the best miniatures, but this is aesthetic and everyone has its one taste, the game mechanics are wonderful. Moreover with 3rd ED. the game will seem to get more neat and clear about tricky rules and interactions and that’s is for the best!
It’s lame being unable to attend GenCon ‘cos of being stuck in Europe, and so cannot put hands on Op:Icestorm quickly. I will attend mid september as it was for Christmas when I was a child. Well a less experienced child – as I know I still play toy soldiers and I enjoy it quite much 😀
I am liking some of those new rules, nice demo.
Maybe some exp. player can explain the “trick” Carlos did with the Orc Trooper. He moves/moves to the edge of the building and back. And the Sniper “must” do an ARO? He cant just do nothing? So the sniper takes a shot at the Orc Trooper….and the Orc does shoot back with 3 dice although he used his 2 orders? Why not move to the corner and shot…plain and simple? I am confused!
I think you have a little confusion over two things. 🙂
One, what an ORDER versus an ACTION is, and two, what actually happened.
An ORDER consists of: one or two ACTIONs – either two SHORT actions or one LONG action.
Moving is a short action & Shooting is a short action – therefore you can ‘move’ and ‘shoot’ during a single ORDER if you choose.
So what happened…
Carlos moved his Orc 2 inches to the corner (half its 4 inch move action), and then, using the remaining 2 inches, moved it back out of sight. He didn’t make two ‘move’ actions, he just moved in two directions using one ‘move’ action. OK?
Killian then declared his sniper would ‘take a shot’ as an ARO when it could see the Orc at the corner.
An ARO (Automatic Reaction Order) allows you to ‘attack’ or ‘dodge’ and Killian chose to attack.
So how come Carlos then shot Killian’s sniper after his Orc moved and was out of sight?
Because of this rule (taken from the Infinity Wiki):
When shooting, the player can always choose the moment during the execution of his order in which to attack.
Carlos declared his Orc shot at Killian’s sniper when it was at the corner as its second action (As noted above, Carlos can shoot at ANY point during the Orcs first ‘move’ action if he chooses to ‘shoot’ as his second action!).
Oh and Carlos got 3 dice because he was making a normal shoot action and Killian got 1 dice because he was doing an ARO.
Great Video, many thanks guys!
Mobile Brigadas have CD13, so they cannot crit at 17
Can’t wait to play this battle on my own table.
It pains me to see the Nomads so thoroughly destroyed. Still, nice game!
Great job, guys.
Hah! I love the way Carlos plays. This is one of the more entertaining battle reports I’ve watched.
Carlos came out with the best quip of the game, referring to the ‘very sexy blonde who is eating cheesecake’. It says a lot when one of the game’s creators has so much fun playing it. Well done guys.
great game looks like my wallets getting lighter again!
Am about to start watching. Rooting for Carlos.
what about a full 300pts battle between them both?
Infinity ftw!
awsome battlerep, very instructive…
HI with movement 4-4?? Thats awesome!^^
Jumping straight from mission 1 to mission 5 ;(
Oh well, still an awesome video
Awesome
I love the Mobile Brigadas! (and prizes! 😉 )
Carlos and the Gaze of DEATH! – he did not like that hit! :p
Looks like a blast!
Hope my pre-order shows up early.
Nomads are awesome!
can’t wait
Excellent vid, I really liked seeing two experienced players.
This is awesome
NOMADS FTW1!!!! mwahahahahaha
End result made me a sad panda. Maybe next time!
spoiler alert! New Skills, New Stuff!
Poor nomads
Go Pan-O!
why can’t I get my Operation Icestorm now? I want to play! Great battle report
I was rooting for the Nomads but alas they lost
Great video, thanks guys!
Looking great
Super fun video. Great to see the two Infinity warriors facing off! Carlos is such a hilarious guy, and Killian is a very gracious and knowledgeable player. I think Killian wins points for being a good demonstrator of the rules and Carlos for his passion and love of the Infinity world.
Totally enjoyed the video and hope we can see more of Killian showing us the technical rules of the game. 🙂
Always good to see the games actually played on BoW.
Especially when its Infinity.
I am so excited to the release…
Pre-ordered. Cant wait now.
Killian is a good addition to the team
A well explained and fun battle report. Thanks
Carlos really played good here, you see the experiece just shine of him haha.
love it!
Carols that is a scary look!
Great to see Carlos having so much fun.
Very nice video. I can’t wait to get my copy of O:I
SPLOSIONS!! PO-POW!
Simple, fast.
I like it.
Can’t wait to run some demos with this set.
This is gonna be amazing!
Very straight forward game. Looks great!
Aaaaaa looks so good!
Going to have to add weight to the smaller terrain boxes. Even a slight bump knocks them all over the place.
Great video. Well explained, really looking forward to this. Wayland Games had this for £60 for pre -orders, released on September 17th. Usual price listed was £75.
september is still so far away…
Juste wow
Just ordered it, I can’t resist beautiful limited edition sculpts like that knight!
The starter set is awesome!
ahhhh nomads why do they suffer defeat!!?? WHY!?
Good introduction to the turn structure and how things are done. Would be helpful for newbies to watch 🙂
Still 1 month to go -.-
King Carlos!
I <3 Carlos' enthusiasm after all the games he must have played and all the explaining he's had to do.
Great battle rep guys, useful to pick up on some of the decisions on where to place miniatures and also how late to deploy the AD troops.
Cannot wait for the box to arrive.
Nomads ftw! 😀
We need a new Red Vs Blue using these guys
Great battle report, very interesting style of play differences. Really looking forward to the release of this box set.
nice battle video, and congrats to the two players!
i really think i’ll preorder the box!
Carlos has a brilliant laugh, puts me in mind of Sid James for some reason?!
Anyway, O:I pre-ordered from Element Games. Can’t WAIT.
Halfway through this video it looked like Carlos was trying to interfere with the AT-AT.
I can’t work out how to add the image.
I’ve set it as my avatar instead!
Really nice build-up with the new edition
Damn that was a pretty close battle. I thought the Nomads would win for sure. Great game guys! 😉
Would love to see more of this kind of coverage in the future. It’s actually a pretty good insight into the game for newcomers. Any plans to do similar with Edition 3 that you’ve being doing with FoW FTW?
Definitely liking the new HI movement.
All I can think of is Red vs Blue.
Why have I not been playing this already?? Cant wait to open the set
Too bad the CSU got taken out so quickly. I would consider placing her in better cover at the start of the game. Perhaps scattering her towards the edge of the building will be enough. To one side she will then have cover. And to the other she will likely not be visible.
Absolutely love the new Nomad sculpts and can’t wait for my preorder to arrive. Excellent work CB!!
I think it’s nice having Carlos presenting the products.
Always fun to see the truly passioned developers themselves.
These missions are looking really good
good game!
I have a few Yu Jing minis, but I struggled to get into this game the last time I tried. It was hard when people kept hitting me with all the gotchas (land mines, invisible dudes, etc.). Has this version improved the game flow any?