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Weekender: Why Warhammer 40k Will Never Get Kickstarted!
November 8, 2014 by dignity
We're talking Kickstarters, as the title might have suggested, and more specifically why Warhammer 40,000 and Games Workshop Kickstarters would just never work! We will however be delving into the way Eternal Crusade is being run and how the Founders Program for that seems to have hit the nail on the head!
Kings of War is also coming back to Kickstarter for a 2nd Edition Rulebook and we have some amazing looking pre-coloured Bandua Terrain to show off!
Hobby time has also been great with Lloyd getting stuck into Making Craters and Justin & John continuing to dive into Bolt Action. If you entered a competition recently we also have a whole bunch of winners to announce!
Have a great weekend!
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Happy Weekend!!!!!
Video is private?
Why cant i view the vid here. Works on youtube.
If mantic fill out the KoW back story I think that would be a bad thing. One of the great thing about KoW is that you can take, for example, some Spartans add some minotaurs and find some mythical characters and theme your army however you want. Even throw in a dinosaur! I’ve seen some great armies put together for this rule set and you are only limited by your imagination. If the back story was as tight as Warhammer you end up in the GW situation where you only use their miniatures the way they want you to.
What I notice about the Bandua pre-painted bits is that you can see the edges/joins. I’d prefer to base coat and paint myself – good shapes though. The colours are also too saturated and flat for me.
Should someone like GW be able to crowdfund/Kickstart? For core product lines … NO ! They’re big enough and should be able to fund,
How they might use it is to consider re-releasing some of their fringe products – Mordheim etc or some new non-core product (e.g. similar to Dreadfleet). Basically saying “This isn’t core, but if you want it enough we’ll divert our resources and expertise to develop it for you”.
Interesting is at what point Mantic etc. get to a size that they think “Do we need to Kickstart? What if we fail?”.
What do we mean by fail. Quite a few projects by small companies as well as large have burst through low targets early on and therefore been seen as a big success. Compare that to something like Cyntopia that’s set a (for me) target that’s too ambitious ($125,000) and is likely to therefore be seen as a failure if it reaches its target which looks likely – so who’s hoing to get on board. Similar games that set a target of $20k in the first place have then reached that level with stretch goals and the fact that the project is already funded..
GW won’t KS, they don’t do discounts or special offers.
lol exactly. You could imagine the stretch goal add on prices.
“We’ve unlocked the new what’s-cha-ma-call-it! Add it onto your pledge for only $50US!”
What is it exactly?
“A brand new exclusive paint! Coloured liquid green stuff!”
They wouldn’t fail anyway, to many fans would just lap it up, whatever it is.
Congratulations to all the winners, you lucky , lucky people 😉
great show guys
Yup Justin, you do get the community buzz, and then you get the community hate when they fail to deliver and more importantly fail to communicate. The failure of Battlefront has really kicked my enthusiasm for Dust into touch even though I have huge forces, they didn’t even send out the rules and cards early like they said so I can play Battlefield, basically they lied to us all.
Great weekender guys. You might want to look into getting some anti tank infantry if possible John.
Yeah I am thinking of some Piat teams and maybe an anti-tank gun.
Great weekender, love Bolt Action and that is a fabulous starter set BUT could you guys do an unboxing of the Rubicon 28mm WW2 tanks – I got a bunch of them yesterday and they are STUNNING!
As regards German tanks, no vehicle was invulnerable but some of them managed to endure absurd amounts of damage, I agree with tweaking the rules but remember balancing tank v tank may upset the tank v everything else balance – the notion is commendable but achieving it is going to be a bit of an embuggerance. Think about bazookas, panzerfausts and A/T guns for example.
Definitely a great weekender!
cool
If Games Workshop set up a kickstarter , it shows there is a willingness in the company to produce something new (albeit a old IP) , if the kickstarter isn’t funded , it’s not Games Workshop who promote to Kickstarter , it’s not there fault for showing ambition to support a new (old IP) in the market place , it falls on this shoulders of those who haven’t funded it.
I think the main concern that GW would have would be the portion of funding taken by kickstarter itself , and then selling that product beyond the initial run that satisfys the kickstarter backers , is there a market for battlefleet gothic past those who invested , or should it be better to as they did with space hulk recently , here is a limited run , slightly updated to give you something new in the box , eat it up instead of kick starting something that is initially successful , but then folds due to lack of sales.
Does anyone know when the mantic kickstarter is starting?
Graffiti – some people have used temporary tattoos on their sci-fi buildings.
I was flicking through a train mag in the doctor’s waiting room this week and saw some graffiti decals. I’ll have to take a closer look next time I’m in.
Blimey you’re right. Goggling “graffiti decals for model trains” comes up with loads. Loads!
They have been around for years
Make sure you look for S scale
They may have been around for years – but why keep them secret? Anyone producing these who had any nouse (common sense) would ask themselves “I wonder if anyone else might buy there? I know – let’s start with other hobby modellers!”
I dont think they keep them secret. They cater to their primary market which is Railway Modellers,which is a far bigger hobby than wargaming. All the wargamers I know always check railway modelling sites for terrain and scenic bits as they always have what you need and some interesting stuff that you dont
I can see how a GW Kickstarters would work…
$100 Pledge Level: Scout (or whatever…)
Receive one 20 model unit set.
– Okay. What’s the RRP of one of these 20 model sets?
– $100
– Hmm…
Saving Private Ryan. The opening sequence is horrifying, but IMO the best sequence in the history of cinema. It’s a shame the rest of the film is entirely forgettable (again IMO).
Replying to myself I’ll watch Fury – for the weathering inspiration if nothing else.
especially those stupid hand signals which sadly found there way into Band of Brothers as well
I’ve successfully repressed that memory 🙂
As far as GW and kickstarter goes, GW has done more to damage their brand than any kickstarter. Between the constant price increases and changing of rules when not needed, I have reached the point where I won’t buy GW unless I have to. I’ll even get models from other companies. To be honest I feel that Mantic has a much nicer range.
I think people still underestimate the dimensions GW works at.
GW (in their very poor year of 2014) had an annual revenue of just shy of 200 Million USD in one year.
In the entire 6 (?) year history of Kickstarter, a total of 283 Million USD has been pledged in the “Games” category (which also includes Computer Games, Double Fine, Star Citizen, etc.., as well as the Board Games, the Reaper Kickstarerfu, Poker Cards, all of CMON, and gazillions of smaller stuff for limited miniatures, dice, terrain, Frisbees made from tofu, whathaveyou).
If GW ran through Kickstarter, they’d have to run a 1.3 Million USD Kickstarter (e.g. something in the league Deadzone) every 48 hours, the whole year through, christmas and bank holidays included.
And that was one of the worst years GW had in a while.
Your point makes sense why almost every big company will never turn to crowdfunding. The only case I can see GW and other big hitters turning to crowdfunding, is to support a charity such as breast cancer society. They would use their resources in a kickstarter to get word out for a cause but never to finance a product as that would make them seem poor and needy.
The amount they made makes it clear that even if they did a Reaper bones 2 mil campaign on KS it be small potatoes for them. They would need to raise at least 20 mil just to make it worth their time. As it is 16.6 mil per month is still viewed as a weak return for the current business model and crowdfunding will (at least at this point) not be able match that return let alone pass it.
Very interesting post there matey, have a plus one.
Good job boys! But don’t let anyone know that Sam is on the set of Game of *beeeeep*!
You mean the Game of Boobies?
I think it would be great if GW did a kickstarter for Battlefleet Gothic, Necromunda, Mordheim and the like. That way they could basically print on demand so everyone that wanted one could get it.
GW wouldn’t be able to run a Kickstarter. Their business model isn’t set up for it. There has been some discussion as to whether companies like Cool Mini or Not should be using Kickstarter to launch games. Cool Mini used Kickstarter as it was designed, to fund projects that the company wouldn’t be able to fund without assistance. However, the company should have the capitol to launch a game without a Kickstarter, but they still use it. They have modeled their business using Kickstarter, so it is completely integrated into the model. At this point, is using Kickstarter a necessity for Cool Mini? Have they crossed from project funding to pre-ordering?
Running a Kickstarter campaign means the company pays about 10% of the total project in fees to KS and Amazon. Still, that is less revenue loss than selling to re-sellers and distributors, so companies have incentive to continue using KS, even after they don’t “need” to. It is hard to say no to guaranteed capitol for established companies.
You have a very good point in that a company that can finance a project should do so rather than putting out the cap asking for funds. GW has no need for crowdfunding and should stay away from it. As for CMON, they will kickstart almost everything they come up with, just to get the word out about a game, even though they can support the financing of the game on their own. I don’t have much respect for them, even less than GW.
And you know CMoN can finance all their games because….
… they would definitely get funding at banks with their track record of success.
Interest vs. Crowdfunding fees ? Remains to be calculated.
Yet crowdfunded projects happen in a special environment of excitement. Its a kick, a horserace. And cool mini know how to kick ass there. I feel like people get exited already just because its a CMoN Kickstarter. I bet consumers behave different in such an environment and tend to spent more.
A bank loan is no more being able to finance your games than a crowdfunder. In both cases you have to go to third parties and ask them for money.
I was just wondering if any other corporate entity has ever tried to buy games workshop? Just curious.
I thought they were owned by hasbro
Banksy style stencils for scenery would amazing.
Space marines pointing bananas, Pulp Fiction style. Make it so!
LOL ! Awesome idea !
Emperor Apeface !
Bananas are for monkeighs!
I’m actually disappointed about not seeing a link to the normandy bombing site.
But in all fairness, that’s probably because i’m just a tat bit lazy to look it up myself.
the only thing’s GW could kickstart without a ton of flack would be plastic thunderhawk or titans something outside the normal ranges
for graffiti you could use some decals i saw on hasslefree for yu jing or nomads
http://www.hfminis.co.uk/shop?product=kanji-%28emotion%29-black~hfjapan01bk&category=accessories~decals-%28tattoos%29
Micro arts actually make great graffiti transfers, perfect for infinity:
http://shop.microartstudio.com/s-f-graffiti-transfers-5-p-879.html
nice spot – but these are quite large. The smaller transfers sold elsewhere are great for ‘tagging’ odd bits and pieces.
I would never support GW kickstarter, companies like dust and mantic are still have my vote for yes but not for long i think they are growing big enough to cover production costs soon. and 3-4 kickstarters from one company is trust bending.
I am sorry, but Games Workshop does “crowdfund”. One of the oldest crowdfunding places of all: the stockmarket.
And frankly, that is what Mantic, CMON, etc.. should do as well. People who “believe in the ideas” of a given company and how take the risk of an investor, by putting their money forward, should in turn be rewarded with equity and a share of the profits, if the company they funded is successful.
That is the very reason why Kickstarter is a bit seedy. You’re taking the risks of an investor if things go south (even after funding), but your potential gains in the case of success are only that of a regular customer, not those of a “proper” investor.
Kickstarter is seedy versus the stock market!!!! /epic facepalm
The other reason GW would never do a kick-starter,(other than potential; damaging of the brand.)
Is because it means listening to what customers actually want,and the company chairman does not believe in that!
(I do find it hard to believe that even a failed kick-starter could damage the GW brand any where near as much as the ‘spots the space marine ‘ and CHS lawsuit fiascoes !)
Armoured fury looks excellent fun, great show as always guys!
Good show guys.
The Weekenders of the last few weeks have not been that interesting to me, but I really enjoyed this one.
More Bolt Action and Flames of War chat.
More please.
Great stuff hearing how your Bolt Action battles are developing, sounds like the Sherman V would have as much trouble with the Panzer IV’s as the Cromwell. Being as the Sherman is medium anti-tank, and medium tank damage also.
Maybe what you could try is giving the Cromwell as a house rule to even the “balance”, the move distances of the wheeled vehicles (advance 12”/run 24”) as it was a fast tank, even FoW gives it more move distance than a Sherman or Panzer IV?
How did find the Firefly work out against the German armour? The down side of the Firefly no HE ammo to use against infantry is a bit of a miss?
Keep up the coverage of Bolt Action and Tank War, looking forward to seeing Tank War week some time this month?
We had my Firefly face off a Panther at near point blank and they ended up staring at eachother most of them game, occasionally shouting BOO at one another. And not much else 🙂
Speaking of kickstarters, why not create a kickstarter hub on BoW? That way we could have info on all the current tabletop game kickstarters in one place.
awesome to see you guys enjoying bolt action! maybe some vids of justin and johns battles?
or maybe some tips? I use heer but struggling to use the ‘howling cow’ effectively!
awesome to see you guys enjoying bolt action! maybe some vids of justin and johns battles?
or maybe some tips?
ugh sorry for double post, long shift!
Rule one of crater club is (don’t talk about crater club) great and funny show guys. LOL
@lloyd the company you want is Custommeeple; they make acrylic bar/hotel signs for each infinity faction plus infinity airbrush stencils (including a large amount of infinity graffiti…) Unless you knew about those things and didn’t want to promote Custommeeple while you were showing the Bandua stuff….
@dignity as much as I don’t want to rehash the extremely long debate between redben and myself, I believe your assessment of kickstarter as not being a pre-order system is semantic. IF the funding fails you’re not on the hook… Right, but no kickstarter sets out to fail, and in the case where a company under-sells their goal to get a funded! rating, but doesn’t actually make enough money to produce the product, they still are on the hook for the pledges or the product. The idea that the chance of failure is a division point between kickstarter and preorders doesn’t wash.
The only difference between a pre-order and a kickstarter is that a pre-order CAN happen without people buying into it, the stuff still comes out (though to be fair, big companies have cancelled projects and returned pre-orders on the basis of overly low sales projections), where as in kickstarter, if it doesn’t fund, it will never come out… Except in the cases where companies are only kick starting to speed their growth cycle, in which case Mantic will still release KoW2, it’ll just be in a few years when their profit growth allows it, rather than now through incentivized pre-orders.
Except, a pre-order is a sales contract.
If you pre-order something, and the company doesn’t deliver, you get all the consumer protection of a regular sales contract. It will be relatively easy to get your money back.
If you fund a (successfully funded) Kickstarter, and the company/individual running the Kickstarter doesn’t deliver… tough luck. You didn’t technically “pre-order” product, but “funded” an idea (promise of goodies notwithstanding). The “idea” didn’t make it (or turned out differently), your money is gone.
Kickstarter as “pre-order” sidesteps decades, if not centuries of legislation on commercial contracts and consumer protection build up in most countries to ensure an orderly conduct of business.
Fair point; I completely agree – kickstarter is unregulated and likely should be; I’m unconvinced that his fact negates the title of pre-order, but you’re right there is some difference between buying through kickstarter and buying at a store in terms of legal protection
I like that the buildings are pre-painted but the colors aren’t really my cup of tea.
pre-basecoated would work fine for me. Although by the looks of it I’d still need to do the edges myself :-/
The only thing that can be said about Lloyds craters is… Who let the Dogs Of War out and who’s gonna clean up after them?
re: GW Kickstarter
I could be completely imagining this, but I could swear that I read an article about a year ago regarding the legalities of Kickstarter (in the US). As I recall, the article stated that the the US relaxed some laws around investing that made sites like Kickstarter legal. (I’m not using the word “crowdfunding” here because my 5 minutes of research claims that it has no legal meaning.) Further, there was something in that article that claimed that larger companies were not eligible for the “relaxed restrictions”. In other words, larger companies could not use sites like Kickstarter. Obviously, GW isn’t a US company, but as Kickstarter is, I don’t think KS could allow it.
Does anybody know what I’m talking about, or am I just full of it?
Quoting:
The so-called JOBS Act modified U.S. securities laws, increasing the number of investors a private firm may have, to 2,000 from 500, for instance, and eliminating some hurdles for companies seeking initial public offerings.
It also lifted the “general solicitation” ban preventing entrepreneurs from advertising sales of equity in their small, private companies to wealthy individuals, known as “accredited investors.” Another provision, yet to take effect, will allow small companies to raise funds from average investors online through a process known as “equity crowdfunding.”
Enacted in April 2012, President Barack Obama hailed it as a potential “game-changer” for small, private businesses eager to raise money….
I’ve been a backstager for a while and watching beasts of war for even longer. But this is my first post…………Great Job Guys, this was a thoroughly enjoyable weekender.
Lloyd managed to get everyone involved in the conversation and we didn’t have to listen to lots of “Waxing Lyrical”. I think this type of weekender is the way to go, at least ever other week. Its strengthened my interest with Beast of war.
Excellent !
GW wont ever take care about is gamming community, they make a windows like wargame that always needs for improvements and updates, leaving some armies to bottom of your storage box. Dont think they ever will KS cause they already had their Brand all arround known, and the power and money to launch a game of limited units like Dreadfleet of Space hulk, maiybe can do same with Mordheim, Necromunda, Gorkamorka, or even a new one, on you run a band of halfling heroes througout a dungeons, but they dont, well market is also full of options so lucky us cause can play what we want.
Winner! wow stunned and yes I am in my jamas! Yay!
Congratulations
I do not think big companies should be barred or frowned for using kickstarter (or other crowd founding programs), beyond using kickstarter as a platform to found a project it is a useful tool to judge customer interest in an idea, it can benefit the company and the consumer in allowing more variety from things that are not “established”, it can allow things only an established company could produce, but their risk would make them fearful of doing so, it would also make companies bolder in their ideas.
I do not think this would harm the new and upcoming companies because the niche they fill will always be there.
Now as far as GW goes, they will never go to kickstarter because they fear, they fear competition, they fear been compared and they fear most of all failure, as is evident with their limited runs re releasing Spacehulk (a sure hit) instead of trying something new and exciting.
Dread Fleet must have been a huge culture shock in the company and its ripples are evident in the fabric of their essence, they have become more conservative than before and I do not think they will try anything new and out of their established path in fear of failing again.
As I mentioned above they also fear competition and been compared, their shops (physical and online) create a sterile environment were the consumer cannot compare them with the competition and they really try to keep it this way, limiting any exposure of their customers they can to other products, if GW did a kickstarter, their consumers would be exposed in an environment not only outside their control, but full of other competing products that they can be compared with.
Loved the show.
Any chance of leaving Warren at home more often, makes for a much better discussion.
Like Lloyd I never cared much for fluff, wishing that GW made codex with just rules only, but now I am a avid reader of all the back stories.
Keep up the good work and pass on my best wishes to mother and baby.
GW wouldn’t use Kickstarter because it requires them to be inclusive with the community – they’d have to release info, respond to enquiries, react to the supporters, create stretch goals that give the supporters a good financial deal and that’s not how they work.
Do not know what a sprog is…
nor really a bambino?
@leoleez.
Its slang for ‘baby’ and or ‘infant human being ‘.
The basic Bolt Action force selection is _supposed_ to represent a reinforced INFANTRY platoon.
The question you want to be asking is not how many allied tanks you need against a german tank.
The real question is: Can I win without taking any tanks at all?
If the answer is no, the force selection is just plain broken.
If you want more tanks, I presume that’s what the new book is for.
P.S. I hope the new quick ref sheet is better. The old downloadable one was the most useless quick ref sheet I’ve ever seen… e.g. listing the bonus for point blank range without ever telling what that range is.
I’m probably letting my ignorance show, but what are the little red flowers(?) the three of you are wearing?
They are called ‘poppies’
They are worn around this time of year (in the uk) as an act of remembrance for all those who sacrificed in times of conflict.
The proceeds from their sale goes to charity 🙂
Guys you need to look at the Armoured Platoon options in Tank War that changes your options of fielding armour greatly compared to the normal Bolt Action selectors
Awesome, I won the Open Fire set. Uhh, what is the process to claim the prize?