Weekender XLBS: Mega Battleships & The Best Way To Learn A New Game?
February 18, 2018 by warzan
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Happy Sunday Everyone!
FIRST!!!!!!! 😉
Now you are just being perverse at our expense 😀
lol
Bet your not first next weekend 😉
lol I bet your right lol
your banned!!!
Great show.
For Warren, I think something to consider about that legacy is who sees it. Sometimes our hobbies are a kingdom unto themselves and our families just don’t get them even when those worlds colide. Your family discovered that uncles love of D&D but had you not been involved in this hobby, it may have meant nothing to you or the kids. The people involved in online tributes and funerals pass on the stories for decades about how important so and so was and what lengths we went to to recognise them, gathering all of the clan and seeing them off within their own hobby space.
Great discussion topic 🙂
Very good point, well made 🙂
on the Battleship side. Why not play Battleship Galaxies. It came out in 2011.
I will have to track it down! 🙂
Happy Sunday!
I fully understand the concept that Warren was trying to express with regards with real as to virtual. Yes virtual hobbys are hobbys but I am with you our hobby is better . I have two stories to illustrate this point.
1) Some years ago I was in my local GW, a mother had just dropped her kids off for the “free babysitting service” while they went shopping *cough*. She saw her friend, another mother, there, and made some comment about how handy it was to have this shop here, and her friend launched, into a spirited defence of our hobby and how she would rather have her boys playing Warhammer than playing video games as they have learn to talk to other people, they have to be polite when they win or lose (can’t say that in video games) and have to learn to fit in. They models themselves take time and they have to be patient and they have something to show for it when they are finished. Her friend agreed before scurrying off to shopping , I smiled to myself and made sure that one of her boys whipped me in a game later (that was not intentional).
2) The unknown Uncle and the connection to him through his minis actually brought tears to my eyes and I will attempt to explain while. In the early 1900s my Mother’s Mother’s family immigrated from Northern Ireland , Parents, two boys and a daughter. My grandmaother was born in 1914 in Australia 18 years younger than her nearest sibling. When war was declared both brothers went off to war before her first birthday. The ship on the way over stopped off in Cape Town, and the boys(not knowing what the hell to send back to a one year old) bought three carved ebony elephants from some bazzar . shoved it in the mail . All she knew of her brothers for the first 4 years of her life where those elephants and she called the big two her brothers names and the little one her name. I was obsessed with those elephants as a kid , and often got told that story and felt really close to both those men . When my grandma died the elephants were left to me and although it seems really odd I still feel those men when I touch the elephants. Physical items have connection (I don’t know how well I explained that, but it is a real thing or maybe I am just odd)
And Warren if your grandkids watch this, I don’t think they could help but be proud.
Re point 1. My real world job has nothing to do with games per se (although my services have been used by welll known video game publishers in the past). It does however have a lot to do with being able to deal with the abstract when modelling and architecting (describing) very real complex business and IT systems, describing values, goals, structures, behaviours and rules/constraints; all while dealing with and communicating effectively with others.
Many otherwise professional people struggle with being able to work in this abstract way – but some of the best I know have board or tabletop gaming in at least their past, if not their present.
The skills you develop in our hobby, including the interpersonal, are very real and becoming very valuable in business.
It is a real thing, and we are all odd.
From memory what Ben is describing is just most the original D&D and AD&D adventures that were produced by TSR and published in Dragon and White Dwarf etc
In any game the QRS s your friend
I think movies are analysed more these days because many of the “big movies” carry political messeges. If the new Star Wars movies were actually just about entertainment the need to nitpick them would be minimal. Unfortunately the opposite is true.
(Elizabeth moon’s Vatta’s War series covers relativistic space combat per what @warzan is describing brilliantly, whilst Alistair Reynolds Pushing Ice hand gets across the effect of time dilation the closer you get to lightspeed in a really understandable way)
Congratulations on your win btw mate.
Thanks man. Still rather in shock O_O
@dawfdd get your white suit on baby and strut your funky stuff
Happy Sunday guys, looks like some nice work was done on the hobby front. @dignity how much of the force is left to do? @brennon I imagine these minis will just keep coming or do you have a final target you are aiming for?
@warzan I think it has been key to see the video game industry have the success it has and through it we are reaping the rewards within wargaming. Hobby will continue to grow as we see things like zbrush become more accessible to everyone along with the constant evolution of 3d printing. Interestingly a couple of the lads have had their characters printed and painted and now use them in games at home as well as play online. In 10 more years I imagine you will be able to design your character on an app and print it off at home while at work for use that night.
I love the battleships idea but think this may be a little much for the kids warren hehe. WIth so many ideas flying around it felt very Enders Game to me and I am thinking about sending you guys two table tennis tables just to mess with you 😀
Congrats to the Typhon winner, have to say I am a little gutted but its probably for the best.
When watching the battleships segment you could see that you all wanted to put in your ideas. If you look back at that and analyse it a little do you think you can give feedback without putting your own ideas into something. After all, we are expected this coming weekend to find game problems and faults as well as play to break the Fabled Realms game. The hardest part is doing that and giving feedback for the 4Ground team to find the answers to and not us.
Have a great week everyone.
@dignity I think you were talking about Corball from Burning Games https://burning-games.com/corball-the-zero-gravity-sport/
Happy Sunday… @warzan with you battleships game you are starting to design a naval wargame, with fog of war. This is kind of like the holy grail of naval war gaming.
As to wacky ideas our naval Wargame group did talk about the idea of doing a submarine game using an old caravan funnily enough it never happened..lol
A little something about digital gaming as hobby.
I myself have played a lot of digital games and still play some games today but I have never seen it as a hobby but as a pass time just like watching TV. This doesn’t mean that it couldn’t be a hobby for other people.
I have to agree with Warren about Mythic Battles, I have taught the game to several people and they get the card, terrain and movement system but struggle with the dice system.
Happy Sunday!!
Lord of the Rings Online (LOTRO) was a big time-chewing part of my life for several years. The main reason was that in that game I regularly hooked up with a group/guild. We initially got to know each other’s online personae, but over time (usually hanging about waiting for a raid to start) we got to know and care about the people behind the avatars. Interesting people from parts of the world we otherwise would never have met. A couple of real world meets (similar to backstage meets) eventually gave us the real world contact.
We tried to move onto other games as a group, without success, so game wise we’ve fragmented. No matter, the guild website still persists as does the chat.
Got me thinking. When it comes to our hobby and its social side, its often not the game time that does it – it’s the downtime before and betweem games where the best social interaction happens. Long live the FLGS and club.
@47:00 check out the chase game, using cards, called Fugitive by Tim Fowers. Chaser has to work out where the fugitive is and where they’ve been before they escape.
Now think of.the empire chasing down the rebels in the last film. X turns tohyperspace (escape) and you need to find and disable them.
Battleships is basically about the Fog of War, a dynamic that computer games can manage well but we struggle with on the tabletop. Can we go hybrid – look at the UBoot app as a great example of the use of an app? You both record your moves in your app, if something is revealed to you then your app shows you, but your opponent doesn’t know you know, unless it’s clearly an ‘if I can see you then you can see me’ situation.
Dunno why you needed a boardgame version of Battleships anyway, it was always a pen and paper game for my brothers and I.
Trying to watch the “Sunday show” and it keeps switching off and going black, then pops back for a minute then goes again!!! Don’t think it’s my Wi Fi, maybe it’s that ghost of the Nintendo CEO haunting my I phone!
Click the cof wheel and select 520 or 360 as your stream option and that should help @jimmyjames72
Excuse me a moment. My brain is resetting after the results of the Mythic Battles Pantheon competion O_O
Congrats mate and we see your claim is in 🙂 over to you @dignity!
Thanks dude. Still somewhat shocked to have won O_o
We’ll see if this is the package(s) to finally break our postie 🙂
Congratulations on a prize well won!
Massive well done to you buddy, lots of painting ahead!
Congrats man well deserved 😀
Congratulations @dawfydd . That is an absolute ton of beautiful plastic coming to your door, have fun 😀 .
Regarding Justin’s anus, it seems Warzan has found the youtube channel Isaac Arthur. He has a video exactly about super computer the size of Jupiter. It’s a great channel abour all thing futurism.
Great xlbs as usual guys.
On the learning a new game side I’ve also had a few issues here. My club is very focused on 40k and not really willing to move away and try something new. Luckily my two boys are now very into gaming but learning new games can be difficult as im almost having to learn on my own and then teach them. Watching your lets plays have helped massively on the wargame front and I’ve also used simpler games like zombicide to get them interested. Of course the terrain making has got them into gaming too. We’re currently waiting for next weekend with our sprues at the ready to follow your journey into fabled realms ready for our pledge to arrive later in the year.
To learn I just used to read the rules a few times, play with the group and then go away and have another read to see if we played correctly. But nowadays I just watch play-throughs and batreps, but more importantly, read all the comments to see where Justin went wrong 🙂
on the topic of easter eggs i remember back in the late 2000’s when i was analysing mobile phones for law enforcement there was a specific section on certain phones where written in the Hex you could see the message:
If you can read this you’re looking too closely
always made me chuckle
@warzan My personal experience echoes yours, in that, I have abandoned digital gaming almost entirely in favour of tabletop gaming because of the material elements I create as part of that hobby (painted minis, terrain etc).
Like you I always try to convince digital gamers to commit more to tabletop gaming normally in response to phrases such as ‘I could never paint like that’ and ‘I just don’t have the time’.
I would never devalue someones dedication to digital gaming but I hate the thought someone is doing that because they feel intimidated by our hobby.
Happy Sunday.. As the ease of learning I found Saga, Frostgrave and Bolt Action very easy to pick up.
The easiest wargame I’ve learnt in the last couple of years has been the Dan Mersey rules, Lion Rampant and The Men Who Would Be Kings.
I fund them really intuitive.
Happy Sunday, although I’ve never attended one yet, I think one of your boot camps must be a great way to learn a new game. Any boot camps in the works? 🙂
Easiest miniatures game I have ever learned to play is Frostgrave. Simple dice mechanic. Very limited model profiles. Not a compeiitive game but great fun.
on the subject of live stream gorilla with a brush has his live streams now. he has them recorded and posted on the site. these need to be front page.
To learn new games I usually leave rulebooks lying around next to me on the couch so I can absorb them via osmosis. Chucking on a let’s play/ bat rep to ‘listen’ to while painting helps pick up a thing or two. And then I might actually open and have a quick flip through rulebook an hour before game :p
Happy Sunday!
I am very much a learn by doing rather than reading or listening, so I just skim rulebooks and then get stuck in. It does lead to missed rules on lots of occasions though, so you always need to be mindful of that, but I always try to have at least one run at a game before reading the rulebook cover to cover.
Also, +1 to Sam’s comment . . . the fluff often gets read before the rules!
Nice one Guy’s loved it.
Regarding the Hot Wheels/Matchbox car conversions: Have you looked at the Gaslands game by Osprey? It’s a racing / vehicle combat game set on a post-apocalyptic Earth that uses converted Hot Wheels/Matchbox cars for minis. Feels very much like the old Steve Jackson Car Wars game combined with Running Man. I’d love to see a few BOW plays of that!
Happy Sunday all.
Learning games, i tend to run through a few phases / turns on my own, then take it to my flgc when i feel comfortable to do so. Not to teach it per se, it becomes more of a group learning thing and we have a laugh in the process.
Congratulations ( again 🙂 ) to @dawfydd and to all Golden Button winners as well. @dignity has done a great job on those Mk3 marines, i love mixing in the older marks of armour into my Crimson Fists.
Thanks for the lovely comments on my Skink Starpriest. Makes me really happy that people seem to be enjoying them as much as I am painting them 🙂
Learning games.
My gaming group generally play 40k, 30k, WHFantasy and AoS. I have become the fatigue relief for those tiring of the big mass battle game. I have taught people Saga, The Walking Dead, X-wing, GF9 Tanks, Infinity and Bolt Action. I actually really enjoy introducing new people to games but with the release of 8th edition 40k I now cross over into their world and enjoy being taught by them.
I think the key to teaching a game is getting the deployment, the basic aims and the movement and shooting rules solid in your head before you arrive. Getting the deployment explained well and sharing the basic aims of the game reassures the opponent that you actually know what you are talking about. If you have to dip into the rules occasionally after that it doesn’t impact heavily on their impression of you or the game.
The only game I have struggled to teach, I need people’s help actually, has been guild ball. I loved the videos on Beasts of War, I got the kick off plastic set and laid it all out to play with my son, but with the complexity of the different players skills and strengths the game ground to a complete standstill before the 2nd turn and my son completely went off the idea.
I have been told to down size it to just 3 miniatures each, and cutting down Infinity into bite size chunks spelled out in Icestorm etc did help in the past. Sadly my son has closed his mind after a negative start and my gaming group are blood bowl fans, sceptical of this pretender to their favourite sports game’s throne. I am not sure how to get this game off the ground again, or whether to allow this game to be cut from my expanding collection and just get it sold.
Dude those Death Guard look great! I just had to pause the vid to comment on them! Good work sir! Check out a Death Guard tutorial on YouTube that uses AK interactive Streaking Grime as a (enamel) wash….. it’s changed my painting life!
awesome show guys, and thank you for bring up the subject of learning new games, rules, and rule books. for a while i thought i was alone in the confusion and lack of remembering things. i love warhammer 40k , infinity, bolt action, age of sigmmar and so forth, but after many years i still struggle with rules and trying to wrap my head around all of it to be able to play a game fully free handed of sheets or books-and the continuous looking up stuff and interrupting the flow of the game/story- i would love to hear more about this subject since you guys have more experience in the hobby and are in contact with game designers and creators. i did got the connan board game, i love the lore, game design, miniatures but i still struggle with the rule book and how things are laid out. my dream is to play a table top game where it`s just me, my opponent and what`s on the table, thanks again for bringing up this topic, and thanks for a great show.
I’d like to speak up in support of @warzan especially in regards to “generalizations.” What he says is so absolutely true, and represents a challenge I run across constantly in these articles I write and interviews we record. Sometimes I’ll be asked a question and in the middle of my reply, I’ll feel compelled to add a parenthetical point, then a parenthetical within the parenthetical, and so so on, until I’ve forgotten what the hell I was originally talking about. 😀 And it’s all in service of preempting the “Gotcha Brigade” – “protecting” yourself from the gallery of “experts” just waiting to shoot holes in your work.
Such is the nature of the internet, I suppose. I’ve just been personally surprised by how tough it is to take a 4-hour subject and break it down to a 90-120 second response that is not only informative and accurate, “translates” it into gaming, and attempts to be entertaining as well?
Yeah, sooner or later generalizations are going to happen.
Okay, @warzan – on the Space Battleship game:
My group and I have designed and played for 5+ years now (just a “dining room table special”, way too cumbersome for any kind of release or publication), a tactical starship combat game largely based on some degree of “real” astrophysics and naval military history. We’ve run into some of the same problems you’re describing, and over the years have hammered out a few solutions.
“Hidden” movement without two boards and a referee is always a challenge. But if I can offer just a few suggestions for the “relativistic delay” mechanic you’re talking about (I won’t offer too much because I know you want to keep this as your own design) . . .
Consider the use of “dummy” tokens. (???)
Okay, you’re looking across the table at some kind of grid, where a Dropfleet Commander miniature represents an enemy ship, battlegroup, or task force. The problem is, this is where that fleet WAS a few seconds or minutes or hours ago, because of the delay imposed by the speed of light (i.e,, speed of information / causality that limit your sensors over astronomical distances).
In game terms, this is where your opponent’s unit was LAST turn. So where is it THIS turn?
When you and your opponent move your ships, you don’t actually move your minis right away. You instead look at your speed, thrust, heading, gravity of nearby astrophysical objects, whatever affects / determines your ship’s possible movement. You decide where you can / want to move. You then put down a SERIES of MARKERS, indicating POSSIBLE positions of where your ship might be NOW.
These markers would all have question marks or targeting symbols of who knows what on the face-up side. The face-down side with either show “LOCATED” or “FALSE SENSOR ECHO” or some such. And THAT’s your movement phase.
So as you’re looking at the table, you see where your sensors officer KNOWS the enemy was last turn, and based on telemetry / sensor readings / computer models, etc., possibilities on where your tactical officer thinks the enemy could be now.
At the beginning of the NEXT movement phase, these markers are flipped to show where your ship / fleet was LAST turn. The “real” marker is replaced with the mini. The “real” and “false” markers are now gathered up and used to track the new turn’s movement.
Basically, you know where your ships are now, but your opponent is always looking at your position last turn. And the same holds true in reverse.
This starts to add a real element of bluff, where players can put their “false” counters wherever they want, so long as their real counter abides by the movement rules. Of course, if your get careless with your “false” counters, it becomes blatantly obvious which ones are “false.” (Hey, how did @commodorerob ‘s ship just move straight through that gas giant? THAT’s a false sensor return for sure!)
The artistry, deception, bluff, and counter-bluff that can work into a carefully crafted (and carefully played) dummy-counter system can be really fun. It really starts to bring in an element of “Don’t play the game, play the man.”
On the more mechanical side, dummy counters / markers like this can also be worked into representing superior / inferior sensors, “cloaking” technology, environmental effects (intermittent solar flares screwing with ships sensors, UNLESS you’re in the eclipse shadow of a planet or moon), electronic counter measures (ECM), etc.
Say you and I are playing a game. Your fleet is smaller but technologically more advanced, with better sensors. We enter a contested star system from opposite sides. I decide to hide in the outer Kuiper Belt of the the system, hoping to bait you into coming at me.
Say we each get a base of 3 dummy markers. Your fleet has 5 sensor dice. I only have 3 (my fleet is bigger, but less advanced). We roll and you get 3 successes, I only get 2. So since you got +1 net success, you get to either (a) subtract one of my dummy counters for that turn, or (b) add one to your own fleet.
Basically, is your fleet using active sensors aggressively, “pinging” in a seek-and-destroy pattern (taking away one of my dummy counters), or putting out your “EM ears” and really listening for my fleet (remaining quiet yourself, adding one dummy counter to your fleet)?
Say you decide to get aggressive (I have a feeling “Admiral Warzan” would be like playing against a Klingon commander). So now I only have two false markers. Based on where my fleet currently is, I place three markers, one real one and only two false ones (obviously, these have to look IDENTICAL on one side). Hoping to play into your aggression, I move two dummy counters on vectors that lead toward a vulnerable colony, built on the moon of one of the outer gas giants. God only knows where your more advanced fleet is, you have six counters (one real one and five false ones).
You place two dummies vectoring toward that colony. Now I know where your fleet WAS last turn (five hours ago, we’re on opposite sides of a star system, remember). I gamble that you’ve taken the bait, and committed a real counterforce against my feint toward the colony. On Turn 2 I move my real marker toward those two dummies, thinking I’m about to ambush your fleet that’s falling for MY dummies.
But as we reveal where our ships really are on Turn 2, I learn to my dismay those were two of your dummy counters, and your real fleet has swung around behind me, tucked in the eclipse shadow of one of the gas giant’s moons. This position puts you roughly in the middle of all my “position counters” – you didn’t know which one was real either but at least now you’re reasonably close to all of them, easier for you since I have less position counters to place (thanks to your better sensors and aggressive “active sensor” option).
More goods news for you on Turn 3 – when we roll a “6” on some kind of environmental scenario condition table, the star just shook off a coronal mass ejection and any ship not in an eclipse shadow now loses ANOTHER dummy counter, etc . . . I’m basically blinded in a tidal wave of solar wind, while you’re picking up static of those particles interacting with my shields or hull or whatever.
Good thing my less advanced fleet is larger, though, and I have a second battlegroup still in that Kuiper Belt. So I can still attack with at least part of my force. Of course, this means that you’re engaging PART of my fleet with ALL of your fleet, can you force local superiority and win before the first half of my fleet reverses course and swings around that gas giant? A lot of that will depend on what the sensors tell us NEXT turn. That first battle may be over before my first fleet even knows where the hell it actually happened.
Anyway, just some ideas.
@dracs Sam you ever read any of these? a bit of fun
http://mhi.wikia.com/wiki/Monster_Hunter_International_(Book)
how they portray elves, gnomes and orcs is hilarious
Can’t say I have, but that does look up my street.
Great show as usual! My ‘that guy’ is my buddy Drew. His memory on all games is amazing! Heck he was in Virginia watching a game of FOW via skype with me and my buddies in Germany once. He was our guy letting us know when we were missing something or mis interpreting the rules. He never had to set the minis down that he was painting on to quote us a rule for FOW. Mind you he had not played a game of FOW in about a year and still knew them cold!!!
@warzan I think you would like a Lost Fleet battleship game. Which would be awesome.
Hey! I’m ‘that guy’ who teaches everyone! I find the best way to learn games is to listen to you guys! Usually whilst at work (or painting!) 2 or 3 listens to a let’s play followed by a rule book skim then a simple game against myself! This worked really well for both dropfleet commander and mythic battles! So yeah, cheers guys! Speaking of Pantheon…..what’s the deal? No retail?
@ghent99 I agree, been thinking of coverting some of Dropfleet to that universe, @Warzans base idea is a lot like how much of the Lost Fleet actions work, with ships systems predicting were a ship is like to be so the ordnance arrives where the ship is rather than were its been.
As for rules systems John Treadways ‘Hammers Slammers’ The Crucible are fairly easy to get your head round.most of our players picked it up in minutes.
Lets plays , initially when I watched the 1st few I was likes @warzan but have got engrossed in all the Two Fat Lardies ones and The Legion ones. Although they might not be be great for getting fine details of rules, They do give what a good guide to core mechanics of the game as Justin commented.
Wolsung and walking dead was super easy to learn @warzan
@warzan and @dignaty you were mentioning the converted cars you guys made here is the perfect rules system for it, Gaslands by Osprey… ospreypublishing.com/gaslands
The easiest game that I ever learnt to play (not including rpg’s) would hav eto have been MERCs tabletop game. Both the 1st & 2nd Ed. games had the base rules which went through move, shoot, close combat (if applicable), then added additional rules that you “could” use BUT did not have to.
The complexity of MERCs, came in with 1st picking which 5 of the available 10 mini’s in your faction would you use for the game,(in tournies, you only had to state which faction you would be using, not the makeup of the team being fielded), then it would include things like certain synergies that you could get from the combining certain team members together, the tactical nuances of how to achieve your objective for the game with limited manpower, and so forth.
I have taught the game to a few people at a local gaming group. Whilst some only wanted to play using the “basic” rules, others were more than happy to go head first into the advanced” rules. When 2nd Ed came out there were very few changes apart from a new rule where you could play all 10 minis from your faction at the same time, but you could only activate a max of 6 per turn. This rule could make some games to be extremely challenging, if you didnt keep situational aware of what & where all your opponents minis are, you could get caught out very easily.
Did I mention that it was a fun and very fast game to play. some games can be 20mins, and it could still be a draw depending on the scenario played. I just hope that who ever takes over from MegaCon games will do justice to this brilliant game.
Happy Weekend everyone! Just getting round to watching this now, been a busy week.
@warzan Thanks for taking the time to talk about the points I raised, I really appreciate you taking the time both to think about that and to respond. Also, I totally agree with a lot of what you’ve said in your response there.
@oriskany Absolutely right about the generalisations thing, I’ve been caught out like that a few times in the past, and you do start feeling like you have to preface everything with like three pages of disclaimer! It wasn’t my intent at all to go “gotcha!”, just genuine discourse on subjects close to my heart, apologies if it came across any other way.
Love the battleship idea, I look forward to seeing a video someday of whatever you guys come up with. In a round-about way, it reminds me of Guilds of Cadwallon, a lovely game whose core mechanics are very loosely inspired by noughts and crosses.
I tried snowboarding once, along with a friend who was experienced at it. I was terrible at it, and it hurt like hell the next day. So much so that instead of snowboarding again we visited Gruyre, the hometown of HR Geiger, and the fascinating museum of his work there.
Often I am the guy that learns the rules in my group, I enjoy reading rulebooks cover to cover for fun even if I am not playing the game. My wife opens board games and usually hands me the rules and says “get them learned before I finish popping out the pieces” 🙂 I will say I struggled with Infinity until I played through the operation ice storm quick plays. Even then, at the end, I dived into the full rulebook and felt like they could have done with another 10 missions in there to take you up the curve!
I will say I love the let’s play videos on here, one of my favourite pieces of content on the site. Full of interesting new rules and concepts all the time.
Have enjoyed playing MTG on and off over the years, even played in a sealed event launch tournament. I came very near the bottom, but still had a lot of fun, can’t recommend sealed events enough.