GW share price dive bombs! HORROR!!!
January 5, 2011 by warzan
Well... all I can say is I'm not really surprised...
So the interweb is ablaze with reports of Games Workshop having a hard year and ultimately I'm sure the recession will be blamed (as always it's the consumers fault for not spending their cash!), so let me put forward another possibility.
We have had one of the most boring spells from GW that I can remember in the last few years. Let's be honest the releases over the past few months haven't exactly been setting us on fire and I've found it a bit of a struggle to maintain any interest in the release schedule for 40K or WHFB stuff for the last few months now.
The promising days of cool releases for Apocalypse and of course the mighty Space Hulk seem so far away now. While there is no denying the recent releases are technically and artistically beautiful, the question has to be asked "are they exciting?"
A crazy old multi-millionaire once told me that not every industry is affected by recessions and entertainment tends to do well. My take on this gem of wisdom was that because the entertainment industries are based on creativity they have a natural defence "the ability to help us forget about the rest of the crap going on in the world".
I can't help but wonder where the 'exciting creativity' has been within the walls of GW this past year?
Perhaps we're just in a natural lull?
However, I can't help but wonder... maybe the company has lost all backbone... maybe they have just become totally risk adverse, in an effort to demonstrate to share holders, that they are a stable company who are playing it safe... striving for a modest growth year on year.
However, to the community, I think it is seen as a company, who's just not doing the cool and exciting stuff we used to see.
Would someone like to remind me what the "must have" GW kit was this Christmas?
So what to do? ... well... how about taking some risks again, they have been paying off after all!
Start by fulfilling the potential that Apocalypse has shown and get a superheavy out for every faction. (plastic warhound is a no brainer!)
Push harder on the Cities of Death and introduce Tau kits and Eldar Kits.
Raid Forgeworld, it's a profitable R&D division, so treat it as one and pull the cool stuff out and get it into mass production... even if that means rolling out plastic-resin products.
Jes and Phil did an amazing job on rebooting the Dark Eldar, but part of me suspects that it just took too long to happen for it to mean anything. So much so, that all but the hardcore fans (and our hats go off to those guys, you have our respect here in BoW), had little to no interest in them.
Perhaps then, it's time to start keeping on top of the armies, with a faster more aggressive release schedule. Move away from the codex and the army book and introduce stat cards! This will break you free of the ball and chain that the codex/book format has become. With stat cards you can release new units at any time... damn it... even the Forgeworld models can become a living part of the game with an official stat card.
You have the ability to move to a completely different and agile business model that will let creativity and excitement flow.
So how about it?
BoW Warren
Source - BBC News 05/01/2011
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I wonder how Privateer Press is doing?
GW products are too expensive for their mileage. They need to find a way to get gamers more involved in their product. I think 2 new kits for each race that hasn’t seen an update in a while, would be every beneficial… or even just one. I would say mirror PP and keep churning out small model updates for all the factions/armies. It keeps players hanging on, instead of just giving up on seeing any new models for several years. Look at Tau! Throw them a bone! How difficult would it be to slip in Thunderwolves in the release schedule? or maybe a freakin’ tervigon?! Models that everyone uses aren’t even in production. It is no wonder that people’s attention wanders.
I hear PP is doing great ! I could be wrong, but…
Their release schedule is exciting, their release pace is frantic, their minis are always of a better quality than GW (wasn’t always so in the first years, but now GW doesn’t even compare anymore…), their universe is rich, very cool, and above all original (GW’s thing is just to rip off old concepts), you can even play it with D&D if you want, their game system is easy to learn in ten minutes, without an expensive rulebook, you don’t need a gazillion minis to play an army with units and such (but you could play it that way), you don’t need books to play, every profile is included on the cards in the mini boxes… and their prices are reasonable : Most of the time, you pay what is necessary for producing said quantity of resin or pewter, with a margin, and the price doesn’t go up if it’s a better character for the game.
Also, said reasonable prices do NOT go up, and up, and up, like GW’s do.
I think people’s wallets aren’t “bags of holding”, so they’re switching to the warmachine system because it’s simply what they like better (even though Warhammer, either of them, isn’t worse, and one can certainly like the universe and the rules), and, at the moment, it’s cheaper, more beautiful, cooler, and less of a hassle.
There’s also more and more great wargames out there with varied settings and rules, for every taste and every purse, it’s not just Warmahordes.
No other explanation necessary, methinks !
“bags of holding”
Sweet geek reference!!!
We know for a fact that GW’s business model is centered on attracting new players to the game. What that means is they intend to “take it slow” and sell off existing products, while keeping new stuff to a minimum. This makes perfect sense if your investors are calling the shots. The problem is that growth seems pretty slow in the wargaming industry. For every ten 12 year old that GW manages to sell a starter set to, maybe one or two will actually keep up with the hobby.
What the community would like to see is a company that continualy supports the small player base with new updates and new models….this is what PP does because they are a smaller company.
Agreed, and a Battlebox-type product from GW wouldn’t hurt either. AoBR is great, but not everyone wants to play those armies.
Exactly! I´ve been trying to get younger players involved at our local club but most of them buy a box or two and then quit because they don´t have the long term interest to paint and collect. And it takes a while to learn the rules… I´m also moving away from GW to more specialized games within the historical wargaming “scene” and scale modelling because I think GW lacks the passion and creativity to share with the gamers. GW:s models and kits are superb but for the money you pay for let´s say one single Baneblade you could get a Warmachine starter box and a Tamiya 1/35 scale model tank and a couple of Vallejo paints to go…
Not only that, but lets face it. How enjoyable is the game at lower point levels? One might even say it is slightly “broken” depending on army match-ups and so forth. As a 40k player, I really only begin to enjoy the game at the 1500pt level. If GW made the game more interesting and playable from the outset, it would hold more players. As it is, you buy a box of minis that you think is cool looking and you can’t even use them. Not to mention the Battalion Box Sets! It is quite an investment to get a force that is balanced and that is legal. PP starts you with a Battlebox that has different units and a cohesive force that you begin playing with immediately… AND is a good building block for the future. It is what I always expect from the GW Battalions, but I am always disappointed. If I was a new player, I wouldn’t want to have to buy a codex, research, plan out a list, proxy models, playtest and then buy. I want to buy something and start playing! Not buy a bunch of units that look cool but whose tabletop effectiveness is questionable, and then sit on the shelf gathering dust. For me, the hobby is too expensive for that. As I said, AoBR does a good job of meeting that first need, but it is a little too expensive, and definitely too restricting in what armies you can play.
Marketing to teens is a probably a bad idea right now. GW just cant compete with Call of Duty, Ipod…or whatever trendy new stuff kids are jumping all over. My little brother started an army after he saw me play and all his friends made fun of him. He loved the game untill that point and had no problems with the rules.
How in the name or Gork can GW attract new, younger players when your average army costs £250?
I remember being 14. I had to save for weeks to scrape together £10 for a rhino or tactical squad. Perhaps children are richer these days or the demographic has changed?
I’m looking out for the new Stormraven – but at £40 each, or ten percent of my mortgage payment – that’s a steep price to pay.
I agree with you Warren!!
They should copy the market strategy Rackham had on their humble beginnings… That was very well for them and they rised only to be overtopped by the self GW
Rackham had the best metal miniatures I´ve seen since Mithril LOTR´s ones… They also had stat cards and it was easy to play with!!
There is one more explanation that may not be entierly obvious. In the past few years GW has done really well….why? Because they lisenced their IP to game developers. There really wern’t any warhammer games to speak of in 2010 excapt for the DOW expansion. This may seem a little strange, but it’s true..lisencing IP is a major source of revenue for GW and 2010 was a slow year.
What we may see, if things get desperate, is GW finaly breaking down and whoring out it’s IP to everyone. That’s is fine with me, because I really look forward to owning a pair of Ultramarines underwear.
YAY!
PowerPants ftw! lol
Then again…if you did have Ultramarines underwear people might mistake you for a Baltimore Colts Fan…
you’re right, a more aggressive approach is the way to go. especially something like a plastic warhound or thunderhawk. some of the product this year were a bit dull. I have to say lately I’m more excited about the new forge world releases than the ones of games workshop. the prospect of a new reaver titan excites me more than any of the announced products yet by games workshop. indeed a stats cards system would open up the game, and would also make it easier during the game to look up stats and special rules, always flicking through that book gets a bitt annoying. of course we had the warhammer release but after that things seemed to stop. it looked like they hadn’t prepared anything else for the rest of the year except the rulebook. the plastic releases of the high elves and skaven were rather limited, they could have put more in a month than that. I really like the stuff forge world is bringing out so I would advice games workshop to follow their lead and do their best to bring out exciting new stuff next year.
To be honest I think that GW has lost some of the creativity that looks after most of its ‘longer in the tooth’ clientele. Looking back over the past few months from September, the big releases were Island of Blood and the new WFB book, some new/plastic high elf models, the Dark Eldar (who quite frankly desperately needed the makeover) and what? Just hobby essentials. I can appreciate where they are coming from I mean a portable art station is useful but what use is it if i have nothing juicy to sink my teeth into. GW has based its releases around the idea of drawing people in like with the release of the new starter sets, now i understand that this is all fair and good drawing people in but, basing your future upgrade releases around the armies in the started box set isn’t creative. its says buy the starter army set and then build from there wash rinse repeat. However older clientele who have stuck with the hobby have their factions, not everyone does Highelves and Skaven. Not long ago GW did the Medusa V global campaign for 40k I would like to see something like that again a global campaign with releases for each army. Fair enough do something to keep the kiddies interested but remember you do have a mature audience as well.
It’s good that they do more general supplies, but they’re a bit late… And their tools are low quality compared to what you can find in any good hardware store. I don’t think the portable art station will have much success, but you never know…
I think we’re seeing the issue of a fun and creative company trying to live in heady world of big business. Look at the movie industry – how often do we get great first time directors produce outstanding movies only to on go and make poor next films because of the demands of the business heads handcuffing ideas.
But I still feel GW could save it, the core game system[s] and world they live it has lots more leg room.
I agree with Warren they MUST change the way to roll out models/rules.
They must become more flexible, listen to the gamers.
I was looking at Sisters of Battle, but with an old codex and most models metal and old, I’m hanging on until the next big release.
Why not have an ongoing schedule of releases for all ranges.
PLUS – another pet peeve is codex/army books. Why don’t they just make them pdf/downloads. That way we could read up lots of armies and decide which to have. They could update/polish online, keeping the system sound and balanced at all times. That way we don’t get the problem of broken games [7th ed warhammer fb].
Forgeworld really hold the future for GW.
Service and customer care are better than GW.
Their release schedule is much better – even the slightly cheesy xmas jigsaw of a future release was fun.
I’ve one question for the community – where does GW get best income from.
a – the 12 year old beginner that buys the starter set and a couple of paints? Then gives up?
Using up lots of store/staff time.
or
b – the 30/40 something gamers that have 3+ armies [big armies too] and big hobby setups and terrain and buy IA books and black library…
They get it from b, because of all the years collecting…
But now GW do want the a, why?? Well, the hard sell of the redshirts can make a lost father or a lost little Timmy boy to buy more than five hundred $ in the shop´s material (starter sets, paints, brushes, basecoat sprays, etc… While the old gamer only gets into the shop for any paint or a blister to work with for any conversion
I think they get the most income from the gamers with 3+ armies obviously. However, if they are not hooking new players, the game will die out.
So their campaign to open more and more shops, could be a mistake. Have some shops for the kids and newbies, but keep the online sales team good to support the bigger/older spenders?
Yep I agree with garwjenk. They still need to attract new gamers to stop competition getting too strong, to maximise potential revenue (more people – more sales) and there is always the chance it takes off and becomes big(-ger than it already is?). But ultimately they must rely on their fanbase of older people who can afford to splash out 200 pounds on a new army and buy a 40 pound rulebook.
anyone else think it’s a coincidence that GW would release new models for both armies in the 8th edition set?….12 year olds….who bought island of blood….should now be upgrading their armies! Why aren’t they doing that?
I love reading the codex of my favourite army, but it may be time to change. However I would point to GWs business decisions, especially at a micro level, as being all wrong.
For example if they are trying to encourage new people to join their games so much then why are battleforces becoming more and more of a rarity? Why did the price increase increase on the starter set, when it could be used as a loss leader or at least it could have a lower price to get people into the game.
Increased prices doesn’t always mean increased revenue and GW seems to have missed this. Yes we should have had some price increases but GW has to remain competitive with the increased competition that is coming about. Also people find the prices a huge obstruction to starting the hobby so they should be kept as a minimal barrier, particularly for the starter sets for example.
Even consider the tactic of being tight on new release details. Some believe GW deliberately plant the rumours, but why not just openly say when the new stuff is coming out? This will get people excited a few months in advance and thus word of mouth etc. will help sales. A downside of this would be that your employees have schedules to meet but they should be doing that anyway as its their job.
I feel that its not just the lack of inspiring releases, i think the new WFB and dark eldar are both major successful releases, I think its the way GW is being run which is largely accountable.
I agree a schedule would be great – something to plan for/ save for.
I used to work in the games industry and launch slippage was a constant happening. Still is. But they still make money…
Hard to speculate unless you’re a business person who understands this hobby from a business perspective, not a consumer perspective. Could be a blip in a bigger picture and that’s all.
Why don’t they work with other modelling companies instead of taking legal action on them? To commission a new model must cost quite a bit. You need to have an expert modeller make it. Create a template piece, Have the molds created to mass produce the piece, the costs add up when you take into account the staggering number of GW models out there. Maybe outsourcing some models and add ons to other companies, with the agreement made to put the quality and and names of both creators on the box?
Also, the same could apply to areas that GW knows they aren’t making much money, like some of their hobby supplies. A perfect example was what Sessau mentioned about the portable art station. Why not go to a company that makes these hobby supplies and have a conversation like this;
“Hi, we’re from GW and we’d like you to create an awesome portable paint set for us, we’ll put both our names on it and give you X% of sales”
“No we want X+6%, then we’ll think about it”
“I have two chainswords and 5 attack squigs in my boot, your call”
You get the idea. It just seems to me that GW is expanding too much and neglecting the whole reason they got into the market. They make a great tabletop game and fantastic models. Just because they have an amazing and talented Eavy Metal Team, doesn’t mean that painting is the focus for everyone.
And Please listen to your Fans, they make you money
I think that stat cards or electronic codexes are good ideas. “codex creep” is killing some armies and really discouraging players from starting them.
Codex creep is the biggest turnoff in 40K to me, electronic Codexes and stat cards are the way to go. I know a lot of people who are leaving the game for greener pastures due to the incredible imbalance brought about by codex creep. I have seriously considered leaving the hobby and I have been playing since 2 edition era.
The problem GW has is they’re trying to use regular business models (ie cut costs/raise prices to increase profits) but these don’t work for wargaming. There are two sides of GW: The Hobby and the Business. The success of one relies entirely on the success of the other. Without the business side making a profit the can’t fund the hobby side(gaming tables in stores painting lessons etc) and without the hobby side they can’t make money as people won’t stick around long enough to really get into the game and start spending. Part of the problem as Warren pointed out is there is nothing to really excite old players. Most of the stuff last year was done in an attempt to entice new players in which is great, but a business model that relies on just new players is going to fail, especially given GW’s lack of advertising. The real money is in the older players. What’s better for GW getting £200 off a new player who quits, or getting £100 a year for the next 10 years off an old school player(most of whom will probably spend more than 100 if you give them something to buy)
The solutions i think could be simple: accelerate the release schedule for one. 40k and fantasy have what? 15 or so factions?, and codexes tend to be released every 3 months at best? No wonder people get bored and quit. Are stat cards the way to go? Probably not codexes work fine, they just get a little left behind. Better errata and FAQ’s can fix that, as can bringing back Chapter Approved and rules updates in WD, which would allow for new models and options and stop armies being left out in the cold(I’m looking at you Inq and Necrons)
The second solution for me is forgeworld. The models are beautiful but generally expensive and the rules are not great(like melta/lance proof LR’s, or dreadnought drop pods) i know a lot of players refuse to play pickup games against people with FW stuff because of this. Change the rules, make them more balanced and easier for people to obtain and understand(Wd again maybe?) and suddenly players don;t mind playing against them which encourages people to go out and buy them since they might now get some use(hell I’ve been dying to buy a GK Redeemer but if noone will play it why bother?) The other thing is encourage them to work on things that will be useful for everyone, to me FW seems to be too focused on collectors and not on regular gamers. Sure Heresy era armour is great, and the models look nice but are people gonna go out and buy multiple sets? Probably not many. If you produced sets of combi weapons, or weapon upgrades would people go out and buy those? Hell yes they would
I play 40K and I see the point many people have made. I think they came out with some real good stuff this year but the issue is they just never followed up with the cool releases with solid content. Case in point is the release of the Spearhead rules. OK the only guys that got new models where IG and Eldar. If Spearhead was handled better we would see people with massive tank formations almost every time you enter GW, but nope, I never seen a single game played. So that tells me not to invest in that.
I think GWs biggest problem are the high prices not the games in it self or the creativity (look at the new Skaven stuff). The new WH FB edition is for huge units but its too expensive to buy them. Look at mantic! the only reason they are doing good is because they have some nice Plastic kits and lower prices. GW should at least provide more bundles in their online store with a decent discount. It works at mantic. How difficult can that be! (Hordes wouldn’t be a problem anymore)
I’m not a huge fan of stat cards! ok they provide some kind of freedom to release stuff, but it has the same problem as the old codexes in 40K. the fluff is missing and thats the strongest point in all the warhammer games.
I think the step to do a 40k movie and more Videogames is good since, if the games and movies are good its a good advertisement for the hobby and maybe even delivers some inspiration for veterans (Why can I only buy the ultramarine Movie from one F*****g Website for a decadent price and only on DVD and not Blu Ray??).
@bigbri
I have to agree bringing back chapter approved supplements and possibly other articles for WD are a creative must, in septembers and octobers WD we had the Ask the ‘Eavy metal team section. Now i know a lot of people don’t like this section but i personally found it helpful. But that is another argument entirely. I think a way of sorting out the problem of the codex/army book system is to possibly incorporate stat cards, but still keep the books themselves at a slightly cheaper price. I mean I remember when they were £12.00. The cards are a tired and tested method after all GW are still brining out FB magic cards, however they are putting them out in limited numbers. Whats wrong with mass production? i know a lot of people who would like to use cards as a way of telling what spells/psychic powers they are using without having to flick to a certain page in the codex every turn to see what the power does. Don’t get me wrong however I do like the codex/army books as they provide a rich background for the units and factions of each army. This lets our imaginations run a little wilder and allows ourselves to be immersed within the GW universe(s).
I think the structure of their release schedule is getting very stale. Dose anyone really want to wait 4-5 years for their favored army to get new releases? Can anyone afford it when a whole army is revamped?
This, compounded with their desire to cycle last edition’s good models into this edition’s bad to make people buy the new releases can be upsetting to people who have existing armies.(carnifexes for tervigons, which dont even have official models?) It is only healthy to focus on new players, but GW need to tap into their existing consumer base rather than discard them.
If a forge world tau battlesut was re-released in plastic every four months or a new rhino variant every six, do you think people would be as bored with their armies?
interesting that as off 16.20 the drop is now only 11%.
The share price will fluctuate a bit. The share price is really quite meaningless, the sales forecast is the problem area :o(
I haven’t thought about GWs ability to produce their games before, but this post has got me thinking…
I refuse to buy issues of WD, since I believe its just a waste of money. Its getting bigger, pricy, but I’m finding little in it interests me anymore. Its nice to see the work/armies of other players, and maybe an odd piece of modeling I never thought of, but going full issue on LotR? Not to bang on those who play the system, but I never seen it played at the various GW stores I go to…hell, the red/black shirts don’t even know how to play it. Don’t get me started on the so called battles at the end of an issue. If your consumers know that half their armybook/codex is crap, don’t you think they’ll pick up on your crappy show? You can easily take one of their characters, redo their gear it have the same stats or better, and come out to half the points that’s published in the WD! I’m sorry, but to me the folks at GW look like they don’t know how to play their own game(s).
I have countless models packed away in countless boxes in my basement. Why? Do you remember Gorka Morka? Blood Bowl? Blood Fleet? Mordheim? (etc). Its another reoccuring bad habit of GW, to start a new system and then move on. Sure there will be models, a couple of WD issues showing them and modeling, and maybe a force or two. Then *poof*! Its like the system never existed…
I’ve noticed in the new DE codex, that all its photos are of the models released. Do you see where I’m going? Usually when a new armybook/codex comes out. you’ll catch a glimpse of a model that may be an upcoming release. Get’s one excited for things to come, eh? I’m seeing less and less of this now. While its nice to see new releases and updates, its more of “oh, ok” then “I waited months for this! Good thing I pre-ordered!”
I agree with the original poster, as GW’s drop in its price share will be blamed on players just not buying. The fact is, GW is not giving us a reason to buy. Not keeping its players on their toes, stirring the waters by teasing us with a pic or two.
I still think they should change the price for the starter sets. I started with The Lord of the Rings when I was about nine years old and the only way how that was possible was because they had the magazines with rules and models every two weeks for seven euro’s. I had a friend introduced to 40k lately and it costed him about 120 euro’s, so I say that if Games-Workshop wants to get more people into the hobby, then they should make the starter sets cheaper, making a freaking Island of Blood set of 78 euro’s does not help with that.
3 things . . .
1.) along with their mostly unexciting release schedule has any one notice how **** the WhiteDwarves are now? ‘YaWn.’
2.) not keen on stat cards, keep the books but just release more data sheets and liber apocalyptas in WD that can be used OFFICIALLY in normal games as well as apocalypse…
3.) I think Tinracer is 10% right that most of their income come from long time gamers, stop being obtuse saying that they need newbies, of course they do, but they dont ONLY need newbies!!!
EDIT _ _ _ 100% 😉
I’m actually not surprised that their stocks have dropped. GW did a lot of bone head business moves this year. A big one was getting all their on-line independent retailers to take down all GW pictures and not allowing many of them to have GW products in shopping carts. Yes, let’s make it harder for people view and buy our product. Smart one?! I can understand that they want people to go to their on-line store, but for the average person if someone is selling it cheaper they’ll go there. Since most independent on-line stores sell GW product with a 10-30% discount, that’s where people will shop. Which is a good thing, because GW is still selling product, so why make it harder for those independents to sell GW product?
Another dumb move was the price raise on most GW product. During a recession most people are trying to save money not spend it. Keeping their price where they were to weather the recession would have been a smarter idea. Also having a few sales here and there might be opportunity for new people to be able to come into the hobby. I agree with Warren if you are going to be raising your prices you better be coming with some really cool product.
Dumb move number three is the legal watch dogs in GW. Sueing companies like Chapter House was not a smart idea for two reasons. From a stock holders perspective nobody likes to invest in a company that is continually tied up in legal actions. Makes a company seem twitchy and not willing to work with others to expand and grow. Second, with outsiders making innovative bits for conversions would this not promote more people to buy more of the main models from GW, which makes more money for GW?
I think the big thing GW needs to do is listen to the people on here, because the ideas that many of you have come up with could really help and probably turn things around for GW.
It’s quite sad, I love GW but they are taking the micky with the pricing as well. I mean, I play necrons and if I want to buy a set of 12 necron warriors with 3 scarab swarms it will cost me £20.50. When I first saw this I neerly died, maybe thats why the shares have gone down, people don’t want to start a hobby that costs so much.
ok gw are a company and they have to make money but there so frigiin exspensive i mean you dont even get a full unit in a box witch is so over priced plus what really ticks me off is when they bring out a new rule set or army book/codex so soon after the larst one im fed up with gw im glad i switched to bolt action
Here Here!
It would change soon, apperntly they are re-launching the Daemon and Witch Hunters as one new codex and Grey Knights in plastic and check out the advanced order page for 40K Anyone of some classic models? or maybe Bjorn? http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440160a&rootCatGameStyle=
Sure GW looks like it’s been hit hard, but when you compare it across other companies you can see that there has been a bit of a downward trend on the high street. HMV for example fell about 20% today.
Someone mentioned GW prices going up and up.
I would like to go on record as saying that it is for this reason that I no longer play WHFB. I have a family and can not afford $90.00 for a rule book or $42.00 for a box with only 16 models in it.
Someone else mentioned that Gown’s business model was based around getting new players into the hobby. How well can this work when the starter sets cost $118.75 &108.00.how many people have that kind of money to spend on a game they might be interested in.
It is because of these reasons my Space wolf army have stopped growing. And I have started using my Lizardmen to play KoW.
Money is also why I’m looking into Warmachine. The quick start rules are free and I can play with stand-in models and find out if I like the game or not, for free I might add. Then to start playing will only cost $50.00 for a starter set.
So let me finish buy saying that recession or not, I believe that GW is pricing their supporters out of the game and themselves out of the marked.
Well said, this is what is the real problem. I recently priced up a second 40k army, just using the presets on their websites, was going to cost more than £300 before glue, books, and carry case. I do love their games, but they are just too expensive to start. I just got all needed to start playing warmachine and even malifaux, combined it was just over £100.
It’s dreadfully sad – the models are simply beautiful, the books a delight to read, the artwork – all of this costs money, that I’m prepared to accept. But I look at buying a codex, simply out of interest and it’s £17.50. In June, that will probably become £20. My local store fellows are great – no doubt the network has helped, a lot. Is this why prices are high? Perhaps some ‘big spender’ discount or something would help ‘veterans’ keep going?
What doesn’t help is the removal of the specialist games, especially the smaller skirmish games; a £20 punt at a new hobby is easy to write off the current cost is much harder.
Agreed! I loved Necromunda! Probably the most fun I have had on the tabletop!
Speaking of Malifaux. Do you know if the are quick start rules that can be down loaded?
Check their website, last I read there they were going to release some for download. They currently don’t exsist.
That game looks interesting. Has anyone tried it? I love the Terraclips scenery that is yet to be released. It looks fantastic, looks good for Warmachine too!
Nevermind, I just saw some art… it looks… disturbing…
It is really good, its no more disturbing than any other game out there. I have tried it and want to play more.
Well, it seems to be a gothic horror game and flesh-eating teddy bears and creepy babies freak me out. 😮
I just ignored the creepy babies, but nothing too bad in the actual miniatures.
I approve wholeheartedly. “Beware the hobby that eats”, said Benjamin Franklin…
Go here http://www.beastsofwar.com/groups/warhammer-40000/forum/topic/40k-campaigns/
To see how I personally think GW should go to continue aking money. What do you guys think?
I think you´re on the right track here Warren, that GW need to get some exiting stuff going. But i dont think that Apocalypse, spacehulk or any of the other mods is the way to go, i think that what GW need to do is to put the effort in the WHFB and 40K stuffs. Mainly becous if GW lay down all their work in the specialist game they will lose a lot of customers. GW need More ‘Casual’ stuff, not the Hardcore special mods,cous face it, its way to hard to start out with the hoby when you need to have a lot of supplements and background knowledge, when i started out back in 1997 I where able to just go into a store, pick out a model kit i liked and continue from there. Today when you get into a store you see, besides the models, Tools, books, cases, brushes, plastic trays, markers, templates and god knows what, all of it with the GW logo attatched to it. Its frightening for a new player to see all this stuff circulating the thing wich really everything is about, the Models. First of all, before gaming, painting, reading about or collecting, there is the Models, the Number one primary thing that warhammer is about is the Minis. Naturally that should be GW number one Priority. Start making great looking models wich are easy to get stuck into! that way a new potential gamer could get into the hoby just becous the models are great looking. And that is what they need, GW need to attract new people, other than Hardcore Diehard gamers. reach a casual audiance and with a higher focus on The specialist games it would undermine the whole concept of availability. its hard enough to start out with Warhammer today, so i cant imagine how hard it most be to start out with specialist games like Space Hulk, Blood Bowl and all the other sidegames.
I think that GW need to understand that they have competiton on the market today, PP is going steady upwards while GW goes down. Why is that? Personally i think its about availability, When you buy a Warmachine/ horde model you get the statcard with it, showing all you need to know for using the model in a game. GW should really do the same thing, How about including a sheet or a booklet with every kit, showing what type of mini this is, the stats and gear for it and the pts cost for it. this way new gamers would be able to pick up a 30 euro plastic kit and start playing.
So, thats my rambling of the day, i tend to do that…
my teeth worth!! 🙂
their shares have been high for the last 6 months anyway. they closed higher than they were roughly 7 months ago, and where worth a 1 pound less 12 months ago, some would say that they were high and need to come down!!
I do agree that there stuff is a bit expensive, but then so is a lot of other stuff. It is after all premium collectables. take a look a lego for example (i have kids too), £20 doesn’t buy a lot.
Still GW could do with re freshing its battleforce box sets, not stopping them. and maybe taking a leaf from PP and putting parred down rules, options, stats in so that peeps have an easy way in to get them hooked. As some have been say the AoBR is a great box of stuff, but not everybody collects Orks 😉 could be an idea to do tau vs necrons (with specially minis, i’d buy it)
I like the stat card idea but I think it would take some getting use to
I believe that GW needs some new blood but it seems like they are trying to keep people out of the gaming stores by making it hard to get started and VERY expensive to keep playing. I understand that it is a huge investment to make a new mold, but GW needs to bring their prices down somewhat. If people think “this hobby cost to much” then they will do something else. I think if GW wants to make more money then they should release Space Hulk again for $30 and the Starter sets for about $50 so that when people see the amount of stuff they get they wont feel like they are being ripped off. I know they need to make money; what self respecting business doesnt. GW also needs to keep people who already play the game happy by releasing new models and/or updates for their armies. I think that if GW were to release a new set every month then the long time players would be happy.
thats just my two cents
Totally agree!!
The problem is that, as told before, GW now is divided into 2:
– The cranky old hobby folks: Jervis, Blanche, Jes Goodwin… who still take it as hobbyists
– The trademark, stocking on the markets and thirsty of bigger amounts of economical benefits
Here Here!
Where are the miniature gateway drugs?
$85 for Island of Blood is reasonable to any gaming addict cause you know what you’re getting, but most kids can’t afford that.
Even if they can, look where you go from there. It’s an expensive hobby and GW hasn’t done anything substantial to cultivate GW gateway drugs to get and KEEP people hooked until they’re willing to go commit to the substantial money investment in getting fully into WHFB or 40k.
I think it would help if they didn’t have such a hard on over the Imperium and give the Xenos some love. Lets get some more alien Codex’s updated instead of just new Space Marine variants, it just gets stale.
Having said that, I think the new DE are fantastic, can’t wait to get playing with them.
You say that and it’s fine but not every marine player players all the chapters. hell I only play Space Wolves these days and their codex before now was from 3rd edition. i agree everyone needs more regular codexes, not just Imperium, but GW’s current schedule of alternating between Imperial/Xenos is the fairest way to do it.
That being said if you want more Xenos and less SM then rejoice, GK (an Imperium codex and older than anything xenos) has been pushed back in favour of more DE models.
Yeah, true, I´m a space marine player and play only Ultramarines and Space Wolves!!
– The Ultrasmurfs because of Battle for Marcragge and Black Reach
– The Wolves´s folks because I always liked Vikings, the Edda´s books and that kind of ancient mythologies…
And if they had new minis every month for both armies… I should run out of money soon!!
It is very stale, IMHO… As I’ve said a lot of times. A tank is a tank is a tank, a marine is a marine is a marine, a building is a building is a building, etc.
And a xenos is a xenos? All of the imperial armies and especially the marines have a different play style to each other, which is why we have them. BA play nothing like SW who play nothing like BT who play nothing like vanilla marines. The staleness comes from the players, especially of the older codexes who’ve decided on one army list that works and don’t innovate with new things.
I’m sorry, you don’t seem to understand what I meant. Of course, you play them differently… Why wouldn’t you… But they look exactly the same.
The boxes have the same basic sprues every time, the same sprue twice or three times… You just change the colors and the little ornaments on top. Even for Chaos SM.
This one has little wings, that one has a weird shoulder plate, the other one a wolf pelt… But they’re the same. It’s cheap to produce, but it gets boring. Especially since the design is austere and dreary, very first world war, fascist or stalinian in some ways… It goes with the fluff.
Half of what GW churns out is that way.
At least the xenos each have original designs… as well as play styles.
Ah sorry when you said it was stale I thought you meant the factions themselves. I like the simple kits for several reasons. Not the least of which designing entirely different ones for each chapter would be impossible due to economic restraints. Add to that the ease of building and using models, and the fact that you can swap them between chapters(I have a LRC that has served in 3 seperate armies) and it’s fine for most people who collect these armies. After all FW does plenty of different marks of vehicles/armour that can make a force look unique and better.
and the models? . . . all the same with different gems and fur and spikes and stuff on them, YAWN. Im much more interested in the minis than SLIGHTLY different rules – other space wolves SMs are old news
The prices are the main problem for me, I would love to play more and build other armies but the prices on some of the items are just too expensive for me. If the prices came down by even just a little bit it would help me out.
Well, I’m a shareholder and a gamer. I revmped my blood angels just as the new models came out and when the new Daemons were about I decided to go for them too. I’d like to collect an imperial guard army too and get the new IA9 and 10 books.
I’m very lucky. I can afford to play the games and collect the models. However, this evening, while discussing a game with chums it became obvious that despite our all earning well the price still put us off – to the point of proxying models.
Are we tight fisted? Probably, but children/partners/wedding plans have to come first. Would they sell more if prices were cheaper? Certainly – even 10% cheaper would make a sale more attractive. £8 for a blister model though? That just feels as if you’re being laughed at.
As a Necron and Dwarf player fully satisfied with the size of my armies, I have in the last two years had zero reason to buy anything from GW.
I’ve bought terrain pieces elsewhere because of the lack of choice from GW, though getting sligthly better. I don’t buy their magazine because I’d say nearly 20% of it is just pictures of things that have been released/are being released along with their prices. They could use WD to very easily bring in codex/rule change suppliements and then I might have a reason to buy it.
They don’t support specialist games anymore and thats a huge mistake. There’s guys who come to the gaming club, who would’ve come into the hobby after the store stopped advertising specialist games and they went out and found out about them and ordered the products.
The two phase release idea for armies is also a bit of a waste. I’d rather a new army come out than having a second batch of models for a past release.
It is so depressing. I started off buying from GW but only so much you can take before you end up just buying from ebay.
have to agree with everything said so far, just gettin back into the hobby after a few years out (by that i mean buying a few WD’s but no playing) and have to say i was shocked at how expensive everything was, never mind that the red shirt seemed more interested in pushing me towards starter boxes when i told him i had no interest in any of the forces that comes with them! same with the WD’s as mentioned gone are the interesting articles (any one remember tale of gamers series?) to be replaced with advertisments i mean is there a need for both the front an back few pages to have the new releases with prices…deffo agree that we need new gamers brought into the fold but not to the extent that they leave broken armies to simply release new over priced starter sets!….also bring back warhammer quest!!!! twas the epiX!!!!
ok, im contested about your ideas. on the one side, all of what u said will help, especially the stat cards, thats a must, but the rest contradicts what u said earlier, non of that is overly exciting. Apocalypse and space hulk and these things brought a new dimension to the game, allowing whole new areas of play. more plastic kits wont help, seeing as we are in a resestion and im not going 2 slend 30+$ on a new version of a model i already have. what they need 2 so is push all of there other exspantions, like city of death and the spear head one they came out with. if i was in GW i would get the wrighters 2 make a cheap book with 4 or 5 differnt types of game play, liek the spear head, and other similar things, each brining a new twist 2 the game, and then give a few examples of ways 2 modify them, cause 2 be honest i get bored of just throwing my razorbacks at objectives. i do agree that there should be at least 1 super heavy unit per army, and GW really should take over forgeworld, the benefits they could reap from that would be amazing.
sorry for the horrible spelling**
I very much agree with whats been said here but for me as an adult gamer who is just getting back into wargaming after 12 years, there are definitely 2 areas that stick out:
1 – Price, price, price: As old as it makes me feel, I’m gonna say it. Back when I were a lad, I could get entire boxes of skeletons which contained 7-8 units of troops (infantry, archers, chariots and cavalry) for £15. Hell. I remember being startled when prices on metal blisters went up to £3. Nowadays we’re lucky to see a quarter of a unit for £15 and those metal models are more like £10-15 (and don’t get me started on Lothern Sea Guard at £10.25 for 5 plastics and Greatswords at £25 for 10!). Kids simply can’t afford to get into wargaming anymore and even adults with well paid jobs are going to look elsewhere for miniatures at those prices.
2 – Reelin’ ’em in: Again, feeling old, but back when I started playing, I first discovered the joys of wargames through board games like Heroquest, Space Crusade and Space Hulk. These games introduced kids to miniatures by using simple rules and card tiles in place of a battlefield. They gave guidance on how (if you so wished) to paint your miniatures and left the lucky player wanting more. What happened along the line that made GW forget how to draw in new blood? Nowadays if you want to get into Warhammer you need to buy IoB for £60, spend a few days reading the massive rulebook, buy 2 army books at £17.50 a pop, then realise that the two armies are completely unbalanced (skaven are way less points and high elves don’t have 25% core) so spend another £100 on more miniatures to make balanced forces. Then you can play right? No! Then you need to go out and buy/steal/make terrain, find yourself a 6’x4′ table (not many households have those lying around but handily GW does one at £150), glue all your miniatures together, and attempt to play your first game, which will take around a week and will leave you more confused than satisfied and your wallet (or your parents’ wallet) lighter by a good few hundred quid. Please GW, give the kids something simpler to play!
While it’s true they didn’t have a release like Space Hulk, I thought this year was fine for cool new stuff to buy.
I do totally agree it’s price that is the problem. They may now be finding out they have hit and exceeded the upper ceiling of what people will pay, and it’s going to be hard to reverse the course on that.
The dedication that so many of us feel to this hobby, shows in all the really good points posted here. I think we all saw this coming, but I didn’t expect to see it this fast. More power to Mantic Games and Privateer Press!
I can understand the rants about GW pricing (I’ve just restarted 40k – £40 quid for AoBR, couple of extra ork/marine squads £40, codex for each close to £40 etc etc) but is Warmachine really cheaper – following the BoW videos I went to Miniwargaming UK where the Battlegroup boxes are around £30 – but of course I’d need 2 (at least, one for me and one for the boy) so that’s £60 and for very small “armies” so add in a couple of expansion packs and the relevant army books to get the full rules and you’re zooming off towards GW startup costs – for me it’s all getting stupidly expensive even for a hobby.
Still, you can actually play for less than 60 euros with five minis for each player… The cards and the rules leaflet may not be everyone’s cup of tea, but they mean you can indeed try out the game without having to buy the rulebook and massive amounts of stuff. Compare that to the prices listed in Lunchbox’s post.
PP’s minis are also way better in quality, and, as I’ve said earlier, a character isn’t more expensive because it’s good in play : you only pay for the production cost, the amount of pewter and/or resin, plus a margin.
Games Workshop sells you 50 euros some rare hero in limited edition “du jour” materialized by a very small and unrealistically proportioned pewter figure with lots of flash. they sell you 75 euros a “beginners box” you can’t really play with unless you buy more books and rules and minis.
And they do it without shame.
Warmachine’s miniatures are not cheaper than GWs… but you need far less. The Battlegroup is a third of your army at a regular played points level of 35. This is a good article on the comparison. http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2010/06/why-you-should-play-warmachine.html
At the end of the day, they are two different styles of miniature games. But many people find it more enjoyable than 40k. I personally find shorter game length to be one of the big positives.
I will point out that I as a new starter to warmachine, brought all I need to start for £65, this included a paint set and wet palette. The need for less miniatures, does make it cheaper which is what is needed when taking a punt into a new hobby. I wouldn’t start learning the violin and buy a Stradivarius.
Oh and I forgot to say – Stat Cards? HATE THEM HATE THEM HATE THEM 😉
Here in Aussie land GW prices are through the roof. 3 years ago LR were around $85 now there at $103 most of the gaming club i play in are buying there stuff from EBay and UK store because it helps when you can get 2x LR’s for the price of 1 here and that is including shipping
Three things they need to do:
1) Dropping their prices is a must. They make good models and if they were a lot cheaper I would buy a lot more stuff (and I’m sure many others would too).
2) Have the rulebook and codexes as free downloadable pdfs that are constantly updated. For probably the biggest wargames maker out there they sure are lazy with their codex updates. It really shouldn’t be this hard for them to stay on top of this and keep everything balanced.
3) They need to stop releasing rules for models that they haven’t made yet. This has crept in more and more with 5th edition, and is unacceptable in my view.
Completely agree on points 2 and 3.
If GW did that those things – point 1 wouldn’t be such a big issue…
GW really need to start listening to the hobbyists rather than just the shareholders, that way they are listening to what the players want, so will keep sales up.
I think what I’m missing from GW at the minute is variety (as several people have pointed out) I miss the likes of Bloodbowl, Necromunda, Mordheim, Battlefleet Gothic and the top of the tree Warhammer Quest. Even games that didn’t appeal (Gorkamorka for instance) made a change to the 40k/WHFB rut that all gamers can fall into – to get that change now people have to move to different companys at which point they see the other benefits (lower prices, different backgrounds, different miniatures etc etc) and once that happens how many are willing to return to GW environment?
I personally want to see more of those kinds of game, I’m sure I said that getting into those games is a less risky punt than starting to play 40k/WHFB. They also lay down an entrance into the world and the stories.
Yes but from a business point of view it (unfortunately) makes little sense to continue these games since e.g. necromunda you need what 7 or 8 models? GW would much prefer spending time and money getting you to spend money on 60 models.
yeah I really like the idea of stat cards!
For those making examples of a 2nd GW army costing hundreds of pounds and Warmachine only being much less, maybe £100.
If you go even farther outside the “norm” (I don’t see much of a difference between GW and PP a lot of the time) it gets even cheaper.
There are skirmish games out there which make even Privateer Press seem rediculously expensive, yet are just as much fun and just as high quality (if not more so in some cases).
Can you suggest some games to look into.
Any of the d10 Narrative Skirmish games by Rattrap Productions spring to mind.
They have a 2nd edition of their main .45 Adventure rules coming out soon. Basically their stuff is a mix between skirmish table top and rpg which can be play as much like one or the other as you want. Across their range the will cover pulp adventure, super science and horror with the new .45 book, then they have Gloire which is like renaissance swashbuckling, Broadsword Adventures which is fantasy, and Fantastic Worlds which is Pulp Sci-fi.
All the rules are very flexible and easily tweaked to play pretty much anything you could think of, and most of the rules are similar enough that if you had more than one setting book you could easily combine them.
So really you can have fun just with a couple of hero/adventurers and some random baddies/monsters for them to fight and a 2ft square board to play on.
A.E. Bounty is a scifi skirmish that comes to mind, forces can range from 2 models to 20 models and the rules cover pretty much everything you could need. Crew creation, alien races, weapons, wargear, special rules for fighting in space, campaign rules…all packed into a single tiny A5 book. And you could easily mod the hell out of it to create pretty much anything you wanted.
I’ve not played it but Darkson who made Bounty first made A.E. WWII a weird world war setting which I assume uses much of the same rules.
Of course that’s only a couple of companies that I have first hand knowledge of I’m sure there are many other nice rules sets out there.
Because of the flexible nature of most systems like this you can really use any models you want so you can go for the cheapest you can find for hordes of cannon fodder and maybe spend a little more money and time on the heroes/main characters to really bring them to life.
Skirmish games best for saving £££
Malifaux (per side £20ish for crew box, add 1 or 2 figs your done)
Infinity (can get pricey per fig but at a show got v1 rules and large force for £60)
Kings of war (nuff said)
Historical games (perry are awesome 28mm, 15 and 6mm also popular, soft plastic 20mm very cheap)
At the 70% sale at43 was cheap…maybe ebay is your friend here as RE is gone now
many others im sure
ps
Warmchine can get pricey but very playable with small force
Monsterpocalypse also by pp great depth and cheap as battle box but gets pricey via boosters
drat …somehow deleted this one
Combat zone…em4 has box set and figs but almost any 5 figs will do for a force
very necromunda style (in fact i think its older than the gw game)
as a general rule it seems most mini games work out running to £50ish per side
eg malifaux actually cost me about £80, rules+3 crews..of course 8 days later they mention they will in 2011 launch a free pdf rulebook
And the best thing for collectors like me who generally just buy whatever model I like the look of is that a lot of these rules are generally flexible enough to use that collection of random models.
Or at the very least there is perhaps more acceptance of modified rules and alternative models. While I cannot take issue with GW having their “official rules only/official models only” policies in their stores I do often worry about the side effect on those gamers who only have a GW store to play in.
When I was a young kid I was always thinking up house rules and at times entirely new rules sets to use my varous models in. Then as I got older and only had a GW store to play in I can look back and see that creativity gathering dust.
Now I’ve chosen to part ways with GW my creativity has come back so strong that I really don’t know where to start, every genre, every model or flexible rules set I like sets the cogs in my head whirring…at least until I get distracted by another model or another genre and the train of thought goes off on a totally different direction.
I have also started Malifaux, from what I read from wyrd, the free pdf will just be how to run a basic game, no interesting terrain or objectives. There will be an option to pay for the rest of the rules.
If you want a cheap game then download either Mantic’s KoW rules or GW’s Warmaster rules (both free) and play with unit markers (for real cheapness use cereal packets or for spendthrifts buy some GW bases of the appropriate size) instead of actual miniatures then the only costs are producing a nice table to play on and some dice ….. you could also do this with GW’s Battlefleet Gothic or Epic at a push.
Lets look at the economics of GWs position.
As already said economics is why GW will not drop the prices.They wont sell that much more stuff. They know that its easier to sell 5 sets at £20 than 10 sets at £10. There are only so many geeky kids at school, but those there are will pay up.
The problem they have is until pretty recently they where the only game in town for most of what they did. Especially in plastics they had a virtual monopoly as you needed big capital expenditures to make the big multi-part sprues. Even two years ago it was GW plastics vs anybody elses metals so it did not look to bad.
But now small companies like Mantic, Conquest, the Perry Twins etc are able to make big sprues without having to actually build their own plants to do so. Suddenly we are seeing lower prices direct competitors.
If I was a Business Analyst brought into GW to look at their business I would tell them its scary biscuits time. Not because of the recession (ps retail sales rose in 2010 so thats piffle anyway) The issue is their monopoly has gone. They have newer, leaner, more streamlined companies that are going to eat up their business. And this is what that BA would tell them (and you’ll hate this)
Less armies. making so many different armies and models with all the capital heavy development and R&D that goes into them is a huge drain on their money “95% of players play these five 40K armies you say? And the other 6 run at a loss? Bin em”
Rehash and repackage old ranges. It must cost less to put a new or weapon on an old model range than recompletly re-engineer the range. And just tart up the codex a bit. Dont rewrite it.
(But you may like this one) Sell off some of the older brands to somebody. Like they did with Dark Heresy and Warhammer roleplay.
The only issue with that is they alienate more players and send more people to their competitors. The real question is how long are people staying in the hobby, the drop in stockprice shows that people are not confident that they will get a return from their investment, this suggests that there is not a strong enough rise in sales for people to think it worth backing.. Also with the rise in VAT and recession, parents are less likely to buy expensive things for their kids, it will go GW stuff vs XBox, and the power of XBox will rule due to parents being able to see it as worthwhile and understanding the expense.
These are toy soldiers after all and £23 for 10 plastic SM is way too much when, family finances will be tighter.
There is also the fact that noone believes the old line of “plastics will make armies cheaper” which GW used to use all the time, I don’t know if they still use it but I doubt it.
While it is true that other companies have produced fantastic sets in plastic that have given much more than older metals (I’m thinking of Perry Miniatures straight away) the vast majority of GWs stuff which moved from metal to plastic did very little to reduce prices if anything, and only some of the time was the quality of the actual sculpts an improvement…in my opinion at least.
Of course things like actual sculpts and designs are always going to be a personal thing to each collector so doesn’t really play a part.
One thing which does play a part though is quality control. Not only are these smaller companies able to produce models with cheaper overheads, but often they are better able to check quality due to the smaller scale of production.
I think most of us who have thought about this sort of thing in the past knew that the odds of a big company knocking GW off the top were small, but much more of an effect would be made by the combined efforts of numerous smaller companies.
Sure there is no doubt that GW have the most coverage and marketing power, but with the internet and so much free publicity and communities not tied to any one company, like this one, it has never been so easy to learn about the alternatives.
I myself stopped collecting GW products for a number of reasons 3 years or so ago and in that time I’ve punged headfirst into the big scary world of wargaming in a way I never had before. Sure it is daunting with all the hundreds of companies out there producing models and rules but with the internet you can find out pretty much everything you could want to know about a product.
I think games workshop need to start worrying about some of these smaller companies which are starting to grow. Stuff like mantic and army painter, both of wich i think could be major competetors to GW. Altough GW is slightly better models, mantic definetly make up for that in there amazing value (on average a mantic model is1/2 the price of a GW model, plus I have recently got 3 free mantic bags with my orders(sorry, I think the offer is discontinued now.)) This shows the lack of value from GW. Stat cards sound a good idea, though keep the books.That way all tose fluff-hungry pepole could still have it, while you do not need to wait 5 years for a new codex and models. I have a small necron army which never gets used because the rules are so old and evrything is way too many points.
Totally and this is why I think the pricing is wrong. I’ve said it in several other places: I think we should have seen price increases because of how the economy has been but I believe GW would make a huge amount of money by decreasing prices on its products, particularly starter sets.
Stat cards have the con of losing the fluff, and I don’t think you’d see them produced alongside the codexes because people may not bother buying the codexes. You’re right about necrons to an extent, I think we struggle but you can make them viable. We should get new book soon (finally :P)
And I disagree they will make more. GW figures are a price inelastic good to my mind. In that if you half the price you do not double the sales. i.e. actually they would make far less money if they seriously reduced their prices. The reasons for this are a) its a fairly monopolistic market at present. b) its a niche luxury item. Both tend to be less price sensitive.
This may change when the market becomes far more competitive when they may becomme more elastic but by that stage the price will be at a lower level.
And yes I am an economist. So this makes sence to me at least….
ps I forgot the other issue I’m led to beleive GW have is quite basic. Its been years since the Lord of the Rings films came out. The Lord of the Rings figures where their gateway drug for a generation of 12 year olds. They must be praying that they do make the Hobbit and they keep the licence!
Although i think the prices are high compared to other companies that offer different IP
However i agree with you. I work in a niche luxury item market, bespoke tattooing as it goes. We put our prices up the winter and it has no obvious effect on our trade, in fact the more we raise prices the busy we have become. So i fully understand the price sensitive issue, even though i do feel slightly robbed when buying the models.
I think you have a very good point about the Lord of the Rings, it saved the company as i remember it?
The ultimate issue for me is the expense of it all. I started the hobby years ago when I was 12 (I’m 30 this year). The peak of my hobby was during and just after my university years when me and four friends played games every week and purchased so many models we could of started our own shop. Those guys each gave up one after the other due to the increase in costs. I am now the only one with any interest. I’m one of those chaps that used to peer through the windows of a Games Workshop store, see the new Night Goblin models for sale and just buy them because they looked great. Always a sucker for a new model me.
However, I don’t do that now – I just can’t justify the cost. Back in the day, it was £12 for a box set and I started new armies at the drop of a hat. Now a basic box set of troops is £15-£20. This wouldn’t matter if it was a one off payment but by its very nature you need to collect more boxes in order to have a half decent army. Playing Warhammer, you will know 10 empire troops (£15.50), or 20 Skaven (£20.50) are next to useless. To have a decent unit at all you need double the amount of soldiers, which means you need to spend double the amount of money. £30 for Stormvermin, what are they on? If I want a large unit of Stormvermin to make the most of the horde rules I need to spend £60! Who has £60 to spend on plastic? And how is the Stormvermin plastic kit at £30 made any different to the Clanrat plastic kit at £20? Maybe if it was coated in gold leaf it’ll be worth that much.
I walked past my local Games Workshop in Romford over Christmas and looked through the window and saw a price list for ‘bargain bundles’. I scanned the prices, the minimum was £80-£100 going up to £400, though reading what made up the bundles I realised you didn’t actually save any money. You could walk around the shop, buy the items individually and still spend the same amount. What I’d actually get free after spending £400 was perhaps the string used to tie the items together. It was obviously lost on the businessmen writing up the prices what a ‘bargain bundle’ is actually supposed to be and hence why I’m not all surprised at the news of the price bomb dive.
I love the hobby and I did buy the new Warhammer box set earlier in the year because it appeared to be a brilliant product. However the armies inside were rather unbalanced and there were no clear rules inside the box that told me how to use the armies, which I found hugely frustrating. It seemed clear to me that to have a half decent game I would have to spend yet more money on more Skaven and on army books. I think it is things like this – frustrating money making tricks which Games Workshop is renowned for – together with the high prices which really grate on customers and encourages them, like my old friends and people on this website, to spend their money elsewhere.
Agreeing with Warren, The gems for me and my friends weren’t Warhammer or 40K but Blood Bowl, Mordheim, Warhammer Quest, Necromunda and Inquisitor. It were the specialist games that attracted most of our attention (and money) not only has there been nothing new since Inquisitor but Games Workshop hasn’t provided anything new for these games for years. I think Games Workshop has suffered greatly for not supporting these games further and if anything I believe these games would better suit a younger audience who have limited funds, space to play the games and would perhaps enjoy the more multi-player element these games present.
I think the hobby has suffered greatly for them not supporting them. I think probably they did the sums and worked out they could make more money by pushing Apocalypse. GW stopped caring about the hobby the day they took other companies products out of WHite Dwarf in the 80’s. They care about the hobbby in the same way Mcdonalds care about your health.
Personaly I really wish they had done a nice generic conversion sprue for making some interesting figures for Dark Heresy. And had made some Sisters of Battle figures in the last ten years since they worked out how to use plastic properly. But I dont think they have’nt done so because they are stupid or missed something. They’ve done so because they make more cash redoing the Space Marine Codex every 4 years and selling Black Reach to 14 year olds.
i must say im not much of a privateer press fan…well i never look at the models but i just went on there website and the trollbloods or whatever there called are nothing short of beutifull gw take a look at them thats what you should do more of!
GW need to get their act together if they want to keep the top spot because i think that in 5 to 10 years like this well will all be buying Warmachine and hordes not warhammer and warhammer 40k but hey GW wont listen to us so bring on the PP!!
Prices! Prices! Prices!
25 pounds (25.50 now) for a box of 10 plastic puppets (Goldswords) is way to much. I could buy them for 18 pounds max. Just look at their prices – they are just to HIGH. There is a huge recession and the only way GW is fighting is to introduce higher prices. That’s the way to loose customers. Good, solid and balanced Army Books would also come in handy. But those who could write them left that company long ago.
RIP GW
Personally, despite the great models and cool rulebook, I think the new Warhammer starter set was poorly thought out for kids and new starters. Most kids will get the box home, throw off the lid, make up the models quick and then want to play the game immediately. What kid is then going to have the patience to read a complex rulebook first? The main glossy booklet inside the box doesn’t present brief easy read rules about what the models in the box actually do or any exciting straight-out-of-the-box-and-play mini scenarios. In fact all the booklet tells you in great length is what models you should buy next and how/where to buy them. They may of well just thrown in a catalogue and order form. What kid, especially one brought up on Wiis and Gameboys, is going to have the patience to plough through the small rulebook, cross reference each unit using the vague characteristics grid at the back and then go to great lengths to figure out rules for the Skaven warmachines and High Elf griffin. There were no helpful play cards inside or an attempt to make the game accessible to a new gamer. The unbalanced armies inside didn’t help either, if the Skaven models were too expensive to produce (because of their number) then they should have used Chaos or Dark Elves.
If Games Workshop wants to reverse its downward slide into economic oblivion then it needs to do the following:
1) Prices – either drop them or introduce bargains etc. The prices as they stand are far too high. You can’t have one of your major game systems, Warhammer, plug horde rules for big units and then have you charge stupid amounts of money for them – Stormvermin (£30 for 20) and High Elf Phoenix Guard (£25 for 10) being prime examples. Who is going to spend £50 in one hit for 20 plastic models?
2) Starter sets – make them accessible, balanced and cheaper in order to draw in new interest. They need to be self-contained games as well as lead newcomers into the hobby.
3) Specialist games – reproduce properly the specialist games and sell them in your stores as complete sets. It will give the stores much needed variety other than just 2 game systems, also it’ll give the customer choice. To have a global brand focus purely on two games is just asking for trouble. Also how cool would it be to have Necromunda and Mordheim gangs available as customisable plastic kits! Customers intimidated by massive armies may prefer to start with a Necromunda gang or an Inquisitor model. At school, the game all my mates went out and brought wasn’t Warhammer or 40K but Blood Bowl.
4) Hero Quest – Bring back in some form games like Hero Quest, Space Hulk and Space Crusade and sell them / market them online, on TV, in Argos etc. If it wasn’t for playing Hero Quest at the age of 12, I would never have even known about the hobby and then go on to spend thousands of pounds over the years on Games Workshop products. Most blokes my age won’t know their Blood Bowl from their Warhammer, but they’d all know Hero Quest and Space Crusade!
5) Marketing – If 40K and Warhammer are going to be the only games to fill Games Workshop stores then they need to be marketed a lot better. Word of mouth is no longer strong enough, online media campaigns and perhaps TV advertising will have to be considered to push the products/hobby/brand.
6) Creativity – as Warren said, excitement and creativity is rather dry at the moment at Games Workshop. To have cool brand new ‘big’ models and brand new games would really help the company get out the static period it is in.
7) White Dwarf – needs to contain more updated rules and background. Releasing army books and rulebooks that hardly change once every four years feels like tax and bit of a rip off.
This is a good plan, I know a group of people who would move back to GW’s games with the reintroduction of the specialist games. I find it funny I can find double the blood bowl players to the LOTR or WOTR players, just shows that these games don’t seem to have the bite that the smaller games have had.
Putting the Stat cards in, but no having wargear upgrade information, would keep people needing to buy the books they can get the fluff from them too. No matter what is thought prices do need to be looked at, 10 plastic ASM for £23 is not worth the money. I would say the battleboxes should all be made game legal with some comprehensive “quick start” rules.
I think the stat cards idea is more than necessary, it creates a fluid business model that does not require an entire army overhaul.
Who knows that GW will do, I just hope they don’t disappear without some sort of commendable fight.
Another point to add to the mix is image – Games workshop needs to widen its appeal to suit a wider market at home and abroad. At the moment I think the market is still supported mostly by the generation who started buying models back in the 90s and early 00s.
Games Workshop seems to be stuck in the bygone age of the late 80s and 90s. Those days are gone now and we are now in a world heavily influenced by the internet and with a new crowd of kids connecting with their friends online – where is Games Workshop in all this?
How are image conscious teenagers targeted inside and outside stores?
How about older students at high school and university – another key market? What incentives do they receive to buy Games Workshop products? How is the hobby marketed at them? Why would a student strapped for cash and worrying about the recent hike in tuition fees go out and spend £££ on plastic models? Would in this instance a specialist game that requires a single payment for a gang or full game be more appealing than a full-blown game system like Warhammer or 40K that requires heavy investment?
If Games Workshop wants to target new comers to the hobby, especially a new generation of kids then it has some changes to make. In the case for long-term customers like me (veterans) it needs to be seen to do more for our money and to continue, with satisfactory support, the systems and armies we’ve all invested in with money and time over the last few years. Ultimately veterans like me want our long and tested loyalty recognised and rewarded.
Games Workshop is in a unique position compared to other troubled retailers (HMV or Waterstones for example) in that it creates all the products it sells itself. Therefore as a producer of goods it has a direct connection with its customers. The company no doubt is troubled with the recession and prices for materials – lead, oil and plastic – but it is also able to directly make changes that can influence better fortunes for itself.
Personally I don’t think the talent at Games Workshop is strong enough to tackle these challenges hence why it is the state it is in. Creativity isn’t just stale in terms of products and miniatures but in management and sales techniques as well. The imagination that took it to global success in the 90s and early 00s is now missing from the top. Anyone following Games Workshop news over the years will know that a lot of the big creative talent have now left. Who do they have now navigating the ship – poor old Jervis Johnson? Maybe they could wire him up to some stasis booth like the Emperor of mankind and then forever wheel him out whenever they need someone to bang the Games Workshop drum. Arguably Games Workshop has a future with books, computer games and now movies but these too require clever management and good investment. It seems the company is trying it to satisfy both new and veteran markets but its products, marketing and brand are not clearly thought out. Recent public relation blunders as well do nothing but highlight the unhappy relationship the company has with many of its loyal customers. Without strong leadership, clear decisions and fresh ideas the company could suffer a similar fate to the Squats – be regarded as obsolete, be replaced with something new and then have second-hand remnants of its glory days for sale on EBay
I agree with most of what you say. Except I think of the late 80’s as the glory days. I think in the end demand for GW products is probably not much different than it was in 2000. It had a great few years on the back of Lord of the Rings and now its back to its hard core base of old geeks and 12-15 year olds 80% of which get bored when they discover girls.
The danger for them is the manufacturing processes have changed meaning they cannot rely on being about the only game in town for their cash cow, which is figure sales. If their sales of figures crashes, which it might, then the massive cross subsidy of the rules development and fluff support will be curbed and I think that might be something we regret in 10 years time.
Interesting times.
The sad thing blackboar is that I love what they do at Games Workshop. The models are cool, the games are brilliant and I love the imagination that goes into the books and background.
I feel the big blunder was putting all their eggs in two baskets. Pushing a global brand primarily on only two systems – Warhammer and Warhammer 40K – which required heavy investment was just asking for trouble. Lord of the Rings was also pushed heavily during the days of the films, but this system also required heavy investment. After years of price increases on models, books and paints they only have those 2 assured markets left and getting smaller – the financial investment is just too high. Had there been alternative systems marketed that didn’t require such heavy investment like the specialist games or something new then perhaps other customers may have been snared. Surely it is better for potential customers to spend some money rather than none at all? Now as you say, they are no longer the only game in town. New rival companies are now offering their own high quality models to accompany games that don’t require such enormous investment. With an increasingly difficult world recession that is predicted to be with us long-term we indeed have interesting times up ahead.
Not much disagreement here. I think in the end they still lead the way in figure development and standards. I had about 8 years out of playing their stuff and was blown away by most of the improvements in the standards and gobsmacked at the price increase. Their model is generally to do the best models they can then charge for them as much as I can see.
The reality is that the GW dwarves and elves are WAY better as figures compared to Mantic. Howevre Mantic charge less than half price, give you the rules for free and dont make you buy a rule book for each army. So a 100 figure a side battle costs I’d guess 30-40% what it would with GW. You’d have to REALLY care about the models which is what I think will in the end cripple them.
That’s a LOT of comments