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May 17, 2012 by warzan
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Darrell & Warren have a look at rumors on what would happen if you could issue challenges in Warhammer 40,000 6th Edition like you can in Warhammer Fantasy.
For me, it will certainly make things more fun, but I think it may upset the competitive play types a bit.
for my blood angels, being able to give opposing characters a good Mephiston seems perfectly in keeping with the whole ethos of the army.
Very cinematic as long as you maintain the racial stereotypes, Someone challenges a chaos character, the chaos character accepts – the challenger steps forward and is riddled by bolter fire from the chaos squad (terribly treacherous these chaos players) ….. Mephiston challenges a tyrannid and is swamped by an en masse charge from the entire horde ….. etc etc
Not so much a big thing for the most part, seeing as force charts only allow one or two HQs… unless Force Org Charts are out, and it’s % back in (like Warhammer …) < which is one of the rumours out there
ICs, while most common, don’t just appear in the HQ section, and some HQs can have multiple characters per slot, so they are more common then you may think..
Unless you play Blood Angels then most unique characters aren’t IC.
Most of those characters will be 1 wound models mind you. Not too keen to throw them into a duel.
Challenging is all fine and dandy if you play Space Marines or Orks but most armies out there don’t want their HQ’s getting lolstomped by Lysander, Logan, Mephiston etc. I think currently it’s fine, you want to have a heroic 1 on 1 you can due to the movement system of a skirmish game, alternatively if you want to avoid CC you can hide your hero in the middle of a squad etc.
I dont care for the fantasy style rumours floating around.
^^This so so much. Some armies just don’t have(like Tau) or don’t really want(like IG, some eldar) characters that can take a pounding in CC, hence they usually hide behind their bodyguard, and this is a serious nerf to them. I think 40k needs to move further away from it’s fantasy origins, not get closer to them.
I can’t disagree with either of you. To those armies this would defenetly be change to worse and it would favor heavily close combat orientated armies with suitable HQ choices for one-on-one fighting. Sure this is great way to boost those kind of armies and kill of others and this would be unfair towards those players.
Surely there, the idea is you dont let those IC’s be charged by a squad or whatever that contains a close combat killing machine that can call them out.
Remember this rule isnt in isolation, look at the wound allocation video, that is a giant tick in the plus box for eldar and tau , this whole challenge thing becomes less of a problem to shooty armies when you consider how difficult it will be to charge them in the first place.
To me, the two released videos point towards a game very reliant on tactics and positional sense, both in overall army positions on the table, and in terms of individual models within a group. Personally, I think anything that gets us to think more once armies are deployed is for the better.
or, if it’s like fantasy, the killing machine can call out your squad veteran and nuke him.
I’m all for the addition of challenges. Characters in 40K lack so much more “in-game” character compared to their counterparts in WHFB. The introduction of this will provide characters with more in game options as well, which is sorely needed.
If anything, I would also like to see characters more leadership and strategy focussed. This is where I find C:SM interesting, for even though the Codex lost the trait system of the previous incarnation, the addition of “special characters” or rather character templates to provide that different game play and style of list. Imperial Guard also follow a similar path with the “order” system.
However, back on point. I vote “YES!!” to challenges.
Also sounds like some form of defence to stop other characters from smacking your unit, for instance a space marine captain challenging abaddon, even though the captain will get smoked but it will stop abaddon from killing your unit.
Yes. But, if it goes like fantasy, the excess wounds will still apply to the result. Now, watch as your unit runs away.
I Like IT!
I think that this sounds like Jervis Johnson. Great concept guy, horrible rules guy. Challenges would just be one more bump added to slow the game down. Having lived through 2nd edition, going back to that style of game-play would not be a good thing. The challenge system is broken in WHFB and wouldn’t be any less broken for 40k. My vote is no. I’ve already been there and done that and it was crap then.
Suddenly, Imotekh’s weird “if he beats an IC in combat” rule makes more sense…
Suddenly, Mindshackle Scarabs became REALLY scary!
Don’t MSS need to be in B2B? while this new system doesn;t seem to need to, unless you have to move the characters together like the Emperor’s Champion rule, in which case they are gonna be a bit broken
Speaking of Slayer of Champions, this potentially adds a new dimension to the Emperor’s Slingshot. (maximum sized crusader squad, plus all possible independent characters (10 marines, 10 scouts, 2 Chaplains, 6 Cenobyte Servitors, and 3 Techmarines and the EC) joined in a conga line allows the Emperor’s Champion to move a maximum of 93 inches (31 x 1 inch base, plus 31 x 2 inches unit coherency) in the Assault Phase, due to a poorly worded rule)
While the EC isn’t going to stomp most characters, this could really help against units with tooled up sergeants and the like. The Emperor’s Slingshot would potentially allow a concealed EC to launch a challenge against an off-guard opponent.
i dont think it would make things sway too close to CC. Yes it may make things a wee bit scary in CC for those tau, gaunts and IG, shooting rules (yet to be mentioned in this style) and wound allocation rules may make those shooty arrmies special in their own way… ie. your IG may have to heap out as much fire as possible, before your orks/CSM sprint forward to tear them a new one so to speak and hope that they take as many down as possible before they hit home. tactics and all that jazz …
… orcs will suck. i mean when i chalenge the mob power claw guy and club him down with a tau battle siute. aftter two 6+ saves hes dead and i park my develfisches in front of them.
OK, I like this rule I think it brings some balance since the last rule we saw was deffinetly geared to hurt assaulty armies this way once your assaulty army lets say tyranids for example has finally gotten through the horrid shootin for an extr turn because due to the last turn the front line was taken down and took them out of assault range is finally able to get into assault with some tau battle suites with a commander in your character can issue that challenge and really destroy them, and if they turn it down I wonder if it will count against your combat resolution.
what about characters like necron lords (not overlords, bog standard lords) and crypteks? would they get to challenge / be challenged? that would screw with MSS Necron Player – “i challenge you” Other None-Necron Player – “bugger off you have mindshackles!! retreat so he makes a normal dude slap himself instead!” Necron Player – “not again … i hate this rule” *rage quits*
or it would end up as a double-mindshackle-self-slapping party (the rest of the unit stands by as the two squad leaders square off and viciously beat themselves to death).
Yeah but if you fail the MSS, your 1-wound lord is doomed, and there goes your Res Orb
he wouldn’t necessarily be doomed, but it wouldn’t look very good for him.
Close combat challenges wouldn’t suit my armies but the rules about wound allocation definately would and at the same time help reduce the risk of getting into combats not of my choosing. So the two proposed rule changes so far have struck a good balance.
Like it. For now, I think that the game misses some serious strategic thinking once it starts… I think the game is a little too much based on your army list and deployement… If you have to think about the position of your units on the board each and every turn for fear of being shot to pieces or challenged by a big bad Ork Warboss in Mega Armour… The game is fun as it is but rules like this one will add a lot to it.
Ignoring the fact that two of those guys were Warbosses, and not Mega-armoured Nobz at all…
It sounds enormously out-of-character for quite a lot of 40K races. Sure, Orks and Marines care about honour, but Eldar and Necrons have nothing but distain for most of their opponents. It also encourages IG Lord Commissars to be downright cowardly, as a Lord Commissar hiding at the back of the unit avoids being squished, while continuing to confer his awesome leadership bonuses (which were why you bought him in the first place).
It already is too much warhammer fantasy in space .. How about looking over how the shooty bits of the game could be made more interesting again? A 40k where troops dont just plain move and shoot, but also counter reacting to the enemy, setting up overwatch etc. there is nothing but cheese strategy in 40k atm, too many things are random and ugigo is an old dinosaur that needs to be replaced.
i think it will be fun as you`ll no longer be able to hide you Hq at the back of a group so it can stand the first wave of combat..
i love these ideas…like warren said it makes for more cinematic games, and as darrel pointed out, less cheese…so far these new additions to the game will be to it’s benefit….i hope that they’re going to make it in the final product. imagine the possibilities!
As a Tau player I find the prospect of challenges scary, though to be honest any close combat is scary!! I do like the concept though. It would give games more of those “epic moments”. Just like the wound allocation on shooting would when facing down a charge. It’ll add more dynamics on a tactical as well as visual and cinematic level.
I do like this idea.
gotta say though you can’t complain if your character isn’t very good in close combat. If that is the case just pull them back – you dont have to accept the challange. Sure it may mean reduced combat for the unit but probably not by much.
I can see this being used tactically to ‘tie’ up a hard hitting enemy by sacrificing a low level character/champion. There is a certain Necron out there I would love to see chopping up a throw away character instead of ALL of your other cc troops with him.
Finally there is another question. I haven’t played 40k for an edition or two. When I watch it being played at the club it seems that several whole units of wolves can all attack a single model in cc despite the fact that only a small number can get in base to base contact. I could very well be wrong in my understanding of the current rules but if I am not, does this mean a change where only the figures in base to base can attack? otherwise whats the point of sending the chicken general to the back of the class, where he can attack normally anyway?
To me it fits in with the fluff. Most armies have a leader or spec. character that leads from the front and doesn’t hide behind the girls.
Ok I can see how some forces might not benefit as much as others, but hey there are already various rules which benefit certain armies more than others. For instance losing a CC based on wounds and then subtratcing the diff from your leadership role does not help horde armies but benefts small strong units. So why not add a rule which can possibly give same benefit back ?
Have a cheap HQ and challenge/accept a challenge from an expensive combat womble (Gaz). All of Gaz’s attacks are on on the HQ. Sure he will win but no overkill wounds will hit the unit just the HQ.
Putt all the wounds on Gaz’s unit and hope to win overall combat. Just beat his unit in combat. (of course you better hope he has Warrged! already else he and his unit will become fearless). I hope GW has thought about this already. i.e. IC wins = Win of combat resolution
It is a very cool rule.
Personally I’m not sure that 40k will go as close to fantasy as BoW suggests but, GW are unpredictable.
Warren and Darrel…would this make a character such as Castelian Crowe of the Grey Knights a bit more tasty. Under 5th Edition this guy was rubbish as against a vet player there was no chance of Crowe getting base to base with the enemy character. This Fanatsy style rule could bring this guy back on the map, what do you think?
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