May 16, 2012 by darrell
Ah Darrell is being a sneaky sod and yet again twisting rules in weird and wonderful ways.
This time he's even suggesting you toast yourself with your own flamer, yeah I know what the hell but watch and see peeps.
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agreed i like the way you guys look at rules who said i cant burn myself try to burn someone els!
The rules do “With out touching any friendly models.” you are a friendly model. Its a nice try but it doesn’t work unfortunately.
Actually, as much as I hate to agree with him, Darrell has a point. The rules for flamers state that you need to touch the firing models base with the narrow end of the template. This overrides the rule about the template touching any friendly models, since it is implying that the template must touch, and therefore hit, the firing model, which is then being ignored for the purpose of firing. Thus, you can argue that the template can touch anywhere on the base of the firing model, so long as it does not contact any other friendly models. If you go purely by the rule of “without touching any friendly models”, then you either cannot use flamers, since they must touch the friendly firing model, or you can use flamers in more or less any way you want, since it cannot touch the firing model, therefore allowing you to place the flamer template in any way that suits you best as long as the narrow end is in some way toward the firing model.
I don’t think it’s good that you just look for cheese. Because in the future we will never can play a game anymore without discussions about think’s like that. I mean how can he put his flamer behind his self and shoot with it.
Maybe the flamethrower-user adjusts the nozzle of the weapon for a wider spray, much like you can on a garden hose?
but what if there are many guys close to the your base can you then turn the template round so the circle is touching the base ???
unfortunately (or fortunately) no, the rules say the narrow end must touch the edge of the base
Than you made an error when moving those terminators.
for vehicles you could moddel the guns so they reach accross the bord so you can shoot from turn 1 😀
To add to that idea, lets have the end branch off in all directions so you can place the flame on any of them. 😛
I would say this is cheese hunting. I don’t see how it would be physically possible for a model to hold a flamer behind themselves, perfectly perpendicular to their body, and pull the trigger. That said, if you and your opponent agree to this before the match, then game on. I would be a little pissed off if my opponent attempted a “self flame” before a friendly agreement was made on the subject. In general, a player cannot willfully harm his or her own units (special rules aside).
By this logic you could argue that the flamer template could originate from any point on the base of the model and go in any direction (including 3rd dimensional space).
well he could always turn round, bend over and stick it between his legs … but that would be risking a LOT of, shall we say … “personal glory” 😀
or his copy of conquering overlords cursed killers!
I see the point you’re getting at, and i can see there the rules laywers would agree. BUT i have to disagree all together cause baring special rules in specific armies (Summary Execution) you cannot shoot you’re own troops, unless it’s a weapon that can drift into them. So i would see this as you are purposing shooting you’re own troops to get more models in the template. It is not worded the best BUT interesting view 🙂
Let’s hope he doesn’t fart.
lol
hahaha I just love that video, almost cracks me up to the point I start my own birthing. Someone at BOW must have vetoed Darrells request for a re-take on that – Thank you! LOL
The rules state that you can’t touch any friendly models with the template, surely that includes the guy holding the thing (yes it needs to touch the base but you also need to measure range), this sort of thing would go against common sense and the obvious reasoning behind the rules. But are you wrong Darrell? Would you use this move against a friend?
Darrell i have to disagree with this as if you did this you would be touching the inside of te base which isnt the edge so i dont think you can pull this off i think the idea is that the model can fire in any place on the “edge” so if you imagined a load of templates it would kinda make a circle. I like the idea but its WRONG please argue i like arguing/debating
Darrell of course you are always right except this time ! i love your rule interpretations that cause a good discussion but this is one too far. I agree with a couple of the other comments if it is not physically possible to do it then it is not within the ‘spirit’ of the game and one thing i get the impression of with you guys at Beasts of War is that you do play within the ‘spirit’ of the game. Or not ?
.
Lets just say I wouldn’t be best pleased at this being suggested to me lol. Sometimes there’s a bit of cheese hunting and this is the sort of thing I would try on mate for shits and giggles after a couple of beverages 😉 but wouldn’t really expect to get to do it. I might get a plus 4 on it though so worth a shot hehe.
Flamer+cheese= fondue 🙂
this isn’t right. because the model firing would wind up under the template. yes the template must touch the base of the firing unit, however only those models which are either fully or partially under the template are hit. in darrells example only the marine is hit. the necrons are not. an interesting idea but completely wrong. sorry darrell i think you got excited with the idea without fully looking at the rules. “Instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template so the narrow end is touching the base of the model firing it and the rest of the template covers as many models as possible in the target unit without touching any friendly models. … Any models fully or partially under the template are hit.“ pg 27 pocket rulebook.
I don’t think in his demo he had the flamer touching the back of the terminator but if it was the template would have been over parts of the necron bases.
Cheese hunting.
jarredmcg is absolutely correct and you darrel are absolutely wrong plus this is major cheese hunting, your never orignally going to think that unless you are just trying to find a cheesy but “legal” way to make yourself win every single game like a power player
Darrel is corrupted by the Forces of Chaos and must be purged -somone get the Inquisition over here!
Nice provocation, but a little to obvious. I would just laugh if someone tried to make this happen in a game…
What utter crap, I have lost all respect for this arogant, cheesy, powergaming (add expeltetive here). Just how are you supposed to hold a gun behind you and fire it through you? Looking at his other vids, his sole gaming tactic is to find possible loopholes and cheat his way through a game. No wonder the rulebooks have to be so large to try and stop this abuse.
Wow relax its just a game….
Of course he can bloody flame himself! He’s CHAOS!!! What? Do you think chaos marines aren’t weird enough to flame themselves? They bloody let themselves be possessed, for Khornes sake!! GAH! And ‘heraldofchaos’ is right, it’s just a bloody game, no reason to get so damn pissed off, because some weirdo who kills people for his gods, flames himself to kill more people.
This is definitely not in the spirit of the game, but aside from that: “Without touching any friendly models” is really the statement in question. Does this include the bearer of the weapon? I’d say that, yes, he is considered a friendly model so you can’t do this.
If you tried this against me though I’d let you do it as long as you took a hit as well since it seems like a fun bending of the rules. And of course what’s one more warrior against the small chance of downing the terminator?
I love Darryl’s opinions. These videos are a real highlight for me.
I’d actually accept this if someone could point to even once specific incident where anyone in their right mind might actually hold a flamer anywhere except right in front of him. I doubt that even John Woo could imagine any such scenario.
…if some big gust of wind comes along and your not holding that flamer in front of you…you’re in trouble. I imagine it’s the kind of thing that’s counter-indicated in most flame thrower user manuals.
Very creative….but no….I doubt many tournament refs would allow that. Now…if only Darryl would apply himself to something more useful…like figuring out all the secret spy codes contained in news paper classified adds, humanity would very much be in his debt.
I would never do this, since its indeed not in the spirit of the game, and it doesn’t make sense either. This smells! Bad.
Mmm… Toast and flamed cheese aka grilled cheese sandwich, yummy.
But I am sorry to say Darrel you are wrong. And ‘jarredmcg’ is right.
But enjoy your toast. And thanks for the idea. I’m going to go make myself a grilled cheese sandwich for lunch.
What was the email for ASK BOW? I can’t find it anywhere.
I have a question about the Holocaust pyskic power from the DaemonHunter codex. The rules state that you must place the 5” template in contact with the users base, and all models under it (Friend and Foe) are hit. I’m wondering how this could be useful in anyway other than baking my Grey Knights.
I took this video with a pinch of salt – I’m sure Darrell realises trying this on wouldn’t be advisable in a lot of gaming situations…
But I wonder if BoW need to perhaps have an extra video category and differentiate the standard Tips videos (which are genuinely useful) with the ‘how to bend the rules within an inch of their life’ videos?
I always find Darrell’s vids entertaining either way though. 🙂
If Darrell is in the vid i usually expect this sort of stuff tbh
Why you always ask “am I right guys?” if you always say that you are always right? Oh cocky Darrel, you are one hell of a character :/
Eehm, actually this effect can be achieved without the template being on the base of the firing model. As far as I know it hasn’t been mentioned that you are obliged to keep the template completely horizontally.
Page 29 of the BRB says you cant.
If you read them, you would know, that actually they say you CAN: “(..) simply place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the model firing it (..)”. But in my opinion Darryls way is against spirit of the game and i would love to watch him using flamer that way himself. 😀
I agree with Darrell here. It really doesn’t violate the template rules. To all the people who say “It’s unrealistic for him to fire a gun from behind himself”, (aside from the possibility of some awesome between the legs shot =]) that’s far more realistic than summoning hordes of demons from an immaterial realm, or psychic battle squads blowing things up with their minds. The realistic possibility of a given action shouldn’t weigh into interpretation of the rules because if we nagged on everything that wasn’t possible, we wouldn’t have a game.
I’m going to have to disagree with you there.It’s less about the realism of putting the flamer behind you and shooting, and more about the abject stupidity of it. Sure, you could do it in real life, but you could also put a shotgun behind your back and shoot it.
Would you?
I sure don’t think so. There is absolutely no good reason to do that. There’s plenty of better ways to commit suicide, and if you just wanted to reach more people with the flame, you’d just take a couple steps back, not put the flamethrower behind you.
I think that in the rulebook you are allowed to do it and legally you can in game but I don’t think you will make any friends by doing that 😛 keep up the great work!
I believe Darrell is wrong but if he is right than either this works for vehicles too. This is why I think that:
The question of import is: Is placing the template measuring range?
The template rules on page 29 tell us that template weapons say template for range instead of a number. I believe the ‘instead’ clearly means that we do measure range still, but ‘instead’ of a number and a ruler we use the template. The act of placing the template is still measuring range.
If that is the case and using a template is measuring range how does that apply to the infantry? The answer is in one of the first rules in the book on page 3. When measuring distances between two models for any purpose we use the closest parts of their respective bases. Since we are measuring range with the template (instead of a number/ruler) that the template must start on the part of the base closest to the target.
Now if placing the template is not measuring range than vehicle shooting is broken the same way Darrell thinks the flamer in the video is.
Vehicle measuring on page 56 tells us to use the muzzle to measure if something is in range and also for LoS. That works for blast and anything else as you lay your ruler out and see if the target is in range. There is nothing in the vehicles firing rules that tell us how to use templates specific to vehicles which means they must be covered solely by the earlier template rules on page 29. If they aren’t measuring range there, per Darrell’s argument, and stuck to the closest part of the base than they aren’t measuring range when used on vehicles and therefore don’t have to be on the muzzle. LoS has to be but the template can then be placed “with the narrow bit touching…and covering as many models as possible”
If I am right and the template is measuring range ‘instead’ of using a number. Then we must use the end of the barrel to lay out the template to measure range to target(s).
So again it either is broken for both or I am right and the placing of the template is measuring range and must be done from the closest piece of the base.
I agree , it saunds simpel that a modle withe Flammer can Burne it self , a modle that has a Flamer schud now howe to jouse it 😉
But this brings me to a question , can a Grey Knight Terminator with Insinerator Burne him self to ??
Insinerator caunts as a Flammetamplet wapon with the same rules as a Flamer …. or wath do you tink ?
Sometimes i love Darrels Chees xD
PS;Sorry not ecaktly the same Rules .. i now an Insinerator ignors Cover and invo saves 😉
Lg DL
I’ve never been comfortable with the flame template measuring from the base. I would prefer the template measure from the actual flamer. I know some assbag would convert their model(s) to take advantage if it was changed though.
I don’t see why this is being fought so hard. The idea is rather fascinating (if you need a real reason why he can fire from behind himself it could be filled in easily: He’s a Space Marine that is using a flamer that has been modified so that the blast is wider at closer rangers but, with the added power, he has lost range and risks self inflicted burns) and though some of you say there should be no such thing because the rules doesn’t allow it (I don’t see it as friendly fire. If I shot myself it would just be stupid and there for allowable. 😛 ) or it’s simply cheap, remember, we’re playing a table top game about future space people who fight swarms of hive minded bugs, space elves, genetically manufactured green monsters, Gods of chaos and disorder, zombie robots, and space Communist. The idea of of a Terminator using a modified flamer really isn’t that far fetched.
“The idea of of a Terminator using a modified flamer really isn’t that far fetched.” Are you serious? I love how people try to justify stuff like this with fluff. I can pretty much justify any type of rule I want to with fluff, but that doesn’t mean it’s right.
There’s this little thing called “spirit of the game” and what the designers intended. If anyone brought this up with the guys in the Studio they would laugh their asses off. I used to know a lot of the old crew (Steve Hambrook RIP, Space McQuirk, Tuomas Pirinen, etc…) and we talked about this stuff when I was working on Lustria and getting flak for the Dark Elf Warband.
I get a kick out of Darrell’s videos, but this one is just absurd.
Nice try, but no. And I wouldn’t try to hit you if you did this, I would hit you. 🙂
No way! I would never give you that. If the flamer range is the template how can a marine start shooting on the opposite side of his base thats not facing your enemies and travel through you to your enemies. This Seriously bends the laws of physics and the Rules as intended. Darrel is just looking for cheese where it can’t be found. Also I wonder what Alessio Cavatore would have said if you had asked him. I bet he’ll just turn and laugh. Nice try 😛
lost your marbels their darrel
yet another case for pre-measuring… and a better editing department at GW.
Your a f***n c***y genius
hmm according to page 29, of the book, you must try and burn as many units as possible in the target unit, meaning that if darrell’s rule of cheese is true, you must cheese, whenever possible, if that would increase the number of units hit.
lol thats almost like casting Venom on your own slayer to prevent Haley from deflecting the spell, Oh wait thats warmachine. DO WARMACHINE VIDS PLZ PLZ PLZ
i have to say you cant do it because you cannot hurt your own troops. when using a flamer the template can not go over any troops from the same squad or army, if the flame template does so or cannot be shot without doing so (if the model is in the middle of the unit) it may not shoot. this is digging real deep for some cheese.
Simply put, the rule says the template touches the base of the model firing… it doesn’t say you’re allowed to cover your own guy. It’s specific in that it says ‘touches the base’ not ‘allowed to cover the base’. Once again… you are wrong as the rules do not say you can do that. There’s even a little diagram in there that demonstrates how it works. For those that need it. Like you.
Bad writing… but even worse on your part. I’m sorry Darrel… but the more I see your videos, the more I realize that it’s people like you who ruin the game’s fun.
Oh Dazza boy thats just out and out cheating.
Not even an ubermarine could do that.
Stretch Armstrong could but he’s made out of some weird strrretchy plastic stuff so would melt himself in the process.
This is Edam, otherwise known as a big ball of cheese 😛
If anything, in this case there should be a rather large chaos lord standing behind the offending marine with said marine’s neck and arm firmly in hand chanting “stop flaming yourself! stop flaming yourself! what’s the matter you big baby? you want your mommy?”
Come on Darrell!!! You’re vids are always fun, even if you’re a cheese-head, but this…? You’ve gone from someone I probably would like to play a game against, to some beardy bloke I’d always refuse to play because they reek of gorgonzola!
No more über-cheesey videos anymore, stick with the light hearted stuff.
What do the other BOW boys think about this?
This is totaly mad!
I wouldn’t try this, mainly because I’m not asking for a fistfight at the table. Anyone who tries this is asking for a punch in the mouth.
This is uncool darrel … that is all i have to say on the matter carry on with your business
haha nice try but thats goto be a no. If the rules reflect or try to reality ten the guy wouldnt have his arm behind his back and shoot.
I’m sure much worse than this has been claimed at tournaments over the years.
There is a huge difference between picking appart the rules for a laugh and actually then using those rules. Just picking them appart for the sake of it is great fun and should always be encouraged if only to perhaps one day make GW put more effort into their rules creation.
Also it creates a whole new type of game. You have friendly sportsmanlike games, tourney games, and then you have this third type where you agree to play the game deliberatly trying to bend every rule to breaking point. All you need is an indepedent judge to decide if your argument is well thought out enough and off you go with your game of utter chaos.
You can’t flame friendly models. Sorry Darrell, but THIS cheese is still milk.
that sounds fine putting the template on the back of the base but i think he should take a hit also
In a friendly game I may pull this but not in a tourney. Besides, if I’m moving a unit during my movement phase with the intention of using my flamer. I’m going to try and line up my flamer to cover the most models. If my opponent spreads out his whole unit to keep down loss then he’s also giving up an advantage in the assault phase.
Didn’t you say (in an earlier video) that one of the vehicles (can’t remember which one) couldn’t use it’s flamer because the template would have to touch the vehicle itself and the rules said you couldn’t flame your own troops …..
Hmmm a minus one for this …….
yep here it is ….
http://www.beastsofwar.com/warhammer-40k/bow-tips-baals-cant-shoot-forward-seven-days-of-sanguinius/
… and a plus one for this – karmic balance 🙂
This is the biggest crap I ever heared! Does anyone play with you when you do stuff like that?
We only play Darrell after he has been plied with Beer, it seems to have a calming effect on the cheating B****RD 😉
there is a very fine line between cheese and cheat…
so you would agree he is cheating here then
I think that too many here take Darryl a little too seriously. I like the fact that Darryl makes you think, really think about the ruleset and he brings a whole new level of sportsmanship and play into being. I, for one, *like* to play against others who, like Darryl, make you think. It raises the stakes and makes me a better player. I don’t always agree, but I truly enjoy a hearty discussion! Keep up the good work, Darryl.
As for myself, I would allow the play. I would liken it to the Space Marine taking a deep stance down and back, giving him a little extra room to fire. Make sense?
If the mini was modeled like that I’d let him have it ….. but it’s movement rate would be halved due it’s awkward posture 😉
I’d attempt to hit you, Darrel. 😛 In my opinion, the edge that GW tried to specify was the very outer edge of the base, which means the way you placed it (inner edge), would be theoretically wrong. Ah well, I guess you’re out there just to scrounge up as much cheese as possible, hahaha
wouldnt you have to roll to wound and armor save if you did that?
What part of “…without touching any friendly models” (p29) is confusing?
I don’t think i would have a problem with this, could be used to represent a guy almost sacrificing himself to get a few more kills, as long as you rolled to wound against your dude as well i would be totally fine with this..
Sure man, go ahead and flame your expensive terminator….. As long as I can laugh my head off when those necron warriors wake up and walk over its charred smoldering corpse.
I’m not a gamer ….yet….but these debates do interest me…..not even entirely sure if this makes sense as far as choosing characters in army books and codexes etc….but maybe there should be an option with an allocated amount of points( for when sorting an army list) for a squad (or regiment for fantasy) that allows for torching your own units if they are in the way(i.e if there are friendly units tangled in hand-to hand but would loose, or could be sacrificed). I’m not so sure about the ‘nutmegging’ your self and shooting through your legs, though. I’d call this option ‘Un-caring commander’. It would be great for hateful characters like chaos marines etc…. but i could see certain commissars and inquisitors being just as ruthless….appologies if this makes no gaming sense…i say this mainly as i can tell this sort of cheese chat really grinds some peoples butt-cheeks with a cheese grater….see what i did there…..
im pretty sure that i read somewhere that you put the template up against where the weapon is, just like when measuring firing distance from a weapons gun
I don’t think I’d try to hit Darryl, but I might argue that as the model firing is now under the template, he too gets hit by the flames as all models partially (or fully) under the template are hit. By the same logic I’d argue that the necrons touching the template are not under it and so avoid the flames…
I wouldn’t do it myself because I rarely use flamers unless I’m about to assault, and in that situation I don’t want casualties preventing me from completing my assault.
Pg 29, BRB. ‘Place the template so that its narrow end is touching the model firing it…WITHOUT TOUCHING ANY FRIENDLY MODELS.’ From this, and from simplly projecting a little bit of self-awareness on behalf of the model, I would argue that no, you cannot flame yourself.
I enjoy the outside of the box thinking, outsmarting your opponent is half the game. Would I use this on a friend…no, would I use it on an enemy? Maybe…*evil maniacle laugh*
I’d hate to have to read though a rule book that covered all these possible scenarios, it may be the case that the letter and verse of the rule book dose not ban doing this, but however it is in no way in the spirit of the game.
To those saying that it’s poorly written, it isn’t. It clearly says that the “narrow end” (note: end) “touches the base” (note: touches, not covers). There’s also the matter of “without touching friendly models” (note: you should be considered your own friend 😀 ). Lastly, you can never place a template so that it touches a friendly model, without it scattering.
To those saying he’s helping people to think about the rules, I agree that he often is, but in this case, he’s ignoring them completely. Quoting something out of context (saying that the flamer rule doesn’t say it can cover your own model) to prove your own point is more than a little under-handed and actually ignorant (note: I mean ignoring the other given facts, I’m not insulting him).
Put simply: you can’t do that and if you try, quotes will be thrust upon you and if you insist, you suddenly have forfeited the game.
The rules state you must place it so it touches the largest number of enemies whilst no friendly units are involved. Doesn’t the firing model count as friendly?
Okay, this is getting way too cheesy for me
I believe Darell is wrong.
On p.29, it states that the “narrow end is touching the base of the model firing it and THE REST covers as many models as possible in the target unit WITHOUT TOUCHING ANY FRIENDLY MODELS”.
So, if anything but the end of the narrow tip is over any friendly model (including the firer), the shot cannot be taken (or the template needs to be repositioned).
rlyehable is exactly right you cannot place the template so that it touchs any friendly model. Any friendly model would have to include the flamer firer. In this case Darrell is definitely cheating.
Yeah, when they say “from the base edge” they mean the edge with the facing of the firing weapon, shooting forward.
Although, I would like to see some armies in 6th edition be able to fire into their own units, sort of in the way Skaven can shoot into some of theirs. Nids, Dark Eldar, Chaos, should definitely be able to sacrifice their own for the greater evil.
I laughed, but the concept was interesting, to say the least. Like video games, this is just simply a glitch for someone to try and pull over your eyes from the Rulebook. I don’t think it would work in a game. It’d cause debate.
Yes, the end is technically touching the BACK “EDGE” of the model base… So it’s simply a glitch picked out in the rule… Wrong? Right? There’s no telling. This is point Darrell is trying to show, the BACK EDGE, although I can see it raising a few People’s Eyebrows.
I wouldn’t do, but only to my brother & our mate for kicks, see what they say, but not at any competitions.
I’m pretty sure in cases like this that “rules as intended” overrule “rules as written”.
Sorry Darrell but there is no way to fire a flamethrower from behind your back . and even if you could the idea is that when firing the weapon it has enough room for the gaases to expand to create the template, if you tried what you suggest all you would do is burn yourself and make a wall of flame starting at yuor back going to either side .
bad bad Darel no you cannot.
I fail to see where the doubt in the rules is here. It is specifically stated that you can’t hit friendly models with the template, end of the discussion.
Also, if you even tried to pull this one on me, I’ll probably won’t play you again, nice job getting wargaming buddies!
He’s chaos, maybe he hates himself for the treacherous betrayal of the Emperor 🙂
It would be worth allowing it for that one time when the marine fails his armour save and gets toasted 🙂
I haven’t seen this much debate since I said Naruto was a carbon copy bought at walmart DBZ. lol good debate Darrell
no way !!!!!!!!