May 21, 2012 by warzan
video Sponsors: Infinity - Dark Age
The guys have a look at the rumor of psychic powers being randomized like in Fantasy when 6th Ed 40K kicks in.
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Have to agree with you guys, not liking this one at all.
The one thing I want to have complete control over is my army list.
Once the game starts I dont care, call it the ‘madness of war’ or whatever, I’ll take unpredictable on the chin during a game all day long, but I want to field the army I choose, not on the dice chose for me thanks very much.
Althought that sounds rather interesting I think that this might actually be some what problem to armies that rely heavily to psychic powers like Eldar do. I would say that being able to choose what psychic powers you want to use is part of playing those armies. maybe heavy psuchic armies could have special rule that they can pick they psychic powers without needing to randomly pick them like rest.
Ok… As @nogginthenog: said, I like to have control over my army list too. And so, I don’t like this idea at all.
I just wanted to remember all of you that: «This is a rumor!»
Before everybody start bashing GW and 40k, take a look at what is being discussed in the topic I started yesterday:
http://www.beastsofwar.com/groups/warhammer-40000/forum/topic/40k-bashing/
Last thing, 40K needs is more randomness. If there si a balancing problem with certains psychic powers, nerv those powers to oblivion but don’t take controll over the army list away from the players. With psychic powers being a gamble, the can’t be an element, your army and strategy is built around. So you just elimineted creative strategies from your game. On the other hand, if there still will be owerpowered combinations of psychic powers, it might end the whole game after the roll for psychic powers: “Oh, you got the psychic powers X and Y. I guess, I lost.”
So: This rule doesn’t solve exissting problems. It creates new.
Random powers just doesn’t sit right, for one thing I think only the orks have exactly 6 powers- cos they already use random powers. Are we to assume that Ahriman or Tigurius are only in control of their powers as much as a frickin’ weirdboy?
Its too much FAQing, considering some psyker units get powers unique to them even within their own army. Maybe if the number of powers you can use in a turn is random I could see that working but I think this is a non starter, and if it is left in the rulebook it might be what kills folks enthusiasm for 6th the same way the poor line of sight rules turned a lot of people away from 5th.
Ahriiman and tigurius should be fine as they automatically know all power IIRC. I imagine most special characters will be okay as they tend to have set lists. I think this is for armies like SM/SW/BA who just choose from a list at the start of the game. The problem is a lot of armies(GK/CSM/Eldar) have to buy their powers at army list creation whereas randomly chosen powers happen at the start of games.
As for making power combos unique, SW already do that and it doesn’t really work. Everyone wants Jaws, so they take that and then choose a different second power, and it’s the same for most codexes. There’s one standout power you’ll want everyone to have and then a bunch of secondaries you won’t mind. I think the key to fixing psykers lies in codexes rather than the main BRB. As long as there isn’t one or two obviously brokenly powerful psychic powers then it’ll make things easier.
If they will really do it, GW will succeed to convince me to get rid of my Nids.
Physics Powers were always another unique way for giving each armies its special feeling and reflect the fluff from the Codexes.
It allows also to build the strategy of You army taking those into consideration, making it random will take it all away.
Hopefully this one won’t make its place in the final book.
In my Eldar army I need fortune/doom on my Farseer so that my “hammer”, Howling Banshees don’t bounce off and die against the first thing they come against. Heaven forbid on the rare occasions I run a seer council and I don’t roll up fortune, I’ll have invested over 400pts in something that dies as easily as a Dire Avenger.
There’s more talk of these rumours over at BoLS:
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/05/40k-rumor-6th-psychics-and-more.html
and
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/05/40k-rumors-6th-edition-allies-and-more.html
Everything posted in these two links makes me cry and cringe, particularly the second link and if are to come in will see me keep playing 5th or just drop out. I started getting into WHFB at the end of 7th ed and when I started playing 8th ed I really didn’t like it. I don’t want 40k to go down the same path.
I totally agree on the first one but the second link i like the premeasure + random charge range. One thing i totally hate is to not make it just for half a inch or less and if i knew it i would probably decide other option.
This is probably because i’m a noob at this but it makes things easier and remove something that is more a reason for discussions than a enrichment of the gameplay. If warmahordes didn’t have that “you measure it you do it” it would be even better.
I agree. this is too far below the belt…. If I want Smite and Vortex of Doom on my Eplisitory, then i’ll CHOOSE them… i don’t want to fight Deamons with anti-hored Powers, or fave a Tank-heavy army with no destructive power (Might of Ancients, etc…) I hope that NONE of these rumours make it into the 6th Ed book. if it did, players would drop out, GW loses money and until 7th Ed came around, no-one would take Psykers. unless as said in video, ALL Psykers must have UNIQUE powers… then i’ll definately take my DE more often….
This is one of the reasons why i prefer Warmahordes, you can make a complete strategy when you define your army and put it in practice on the battlefield. Randomness doesn’t make any sense.
The best way to nerf psychic powers in a elegant and cinematic way is to to increase chances of failure depending of the difficulty of your power and how much powers did the psycker have, and if it fails it has to take a wound ( the save lvl would be the power difficulty or something representative).
In that way you don’t have to FAQ every armybook and is very cinematic because it shows the mind of psycker effort and the suffering that has to endure in order to pull that one.
Is that a toilet near the display case on the right?
EASTER … agh…
That. Is not. An egg. D:
Oh Nurgle T_T
This is a question that needs answering !
“Blessed is the mind too small for doubt”
I’m not an expert but it does look like a khazi to me… hopefully that’s were this rumour ends up.
The rim looks too thin to be a toilet, and there appears to be something piled up inside it. If I were to guess I would say it’s a decorative plant pot.
While I could tolerate this with something like Orks or Chaos, forces like Eldar and Space Marines shouldn’t have such a random factor to their force selection.
It sounds a bit bollocks! Surely (keeping with the fluff) a psychic would spend time learning his abilities they wouldn’t randomly turn up on battle day!!
It kinda sucks in Fantasy as well to be honest. As you say aim was to nerf magic but there must have been better ways!
Well… I am in favour of the introduction of random psychic powers. Personally, I am sick to death of seeing lists with the same old combinations of psychic abilities, and also playing against them. Also, I believe it will introduce the idea of proper tactical gameplay by some players, and also introduce the idea of a balanced list which can deal with all scenarios, rather than lists which just relying on their “one trick pony” tactic.
I for one feel that this could introduce some greater depth into the game. and I feel sorry for those who feel that because they cannot choose their psychic powers feel they have lost all choice in their army list building potential.
Don’t be surprised if force composition charts are gone, and the percentages are brought in.
Hmmmm… I only suspect is that this is for non-special Psykers, I imagine they’ll introduce like a Loremaster kind of Psyker, one able to use all powers.
If not, I don’t mind, I hate psykers- I wouldn’t mind seeing less of them doing Blood Lance and Jaws, that Space Pup 4 psyker list is partically good at ruining friendships.
An elegant way of doing random power selection would be to make a choice then roll for it, on a 4+ you get your power otherwise you make a new selection and roll again, this time on a 3+ you get your selection. you could continue in this vain until all powers are chosen. this method would avoid the need for any faqs or lists of powers in the rule book.
It sounds a bit naff to me too.
Like the guys say it’s too much FAQ’ing, and it flies in the face of what I’ve been hearing for ages; namely that the most recent codices (BA/GK etc) have been written specifically to remain current throughout 6th edition. (future-proofed if you will)
Besides, we don’t want to go down that road again: (I don’t know what tags work on here so imagine “that” was in italics)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCdWbMekTE8
On a more serious note: The act of list building is a part of playing a competetive game (whether you play competetively or not the game is a competition between two or more players), and should remain an important part of determining who wins and who loses in each game.
Taking control of army composition/equipment/powers/etc away from the player is diminishing the impact of their choices on the outcome of the game.
On a more personal level, the army on the table represents the controlling player, they are in many ways our creations, and are essentially fighting on our behalf. It seems ludicrous to allow us to build the models, paint them, choose which units go in our army, (some people even name them, invent their own factions/chapters/kabaals/craftworlds/etc and write their fluff) and to then make something like which Psychic Powers a hero (possibly even the army’s general) can use beyond our control.
I have to say, I am glad they are trying to address it. The simple fact is, psychic powers in 40K are not balanced. GW did a horrible job with them. Marines get the best ones and the best defense against them, everyone else pretty much got the shaft (eldar maybe the exception). So how does GW nerf psychics on a wide base without having to fix it on every book? Even the suggestion of no duplicate powers will fall short. Psychics are too good, and way unbalanced. Chance of failure is too low, and most armies have no defense against them.
GW did a poor job with them from the start. There always needs to be balance. You can’t give one set a good tool to add to their army and then do a crap job giving it to others.
Then surely introduce a higher fail rate and a standard rule that says “when a psyker uses an attack the target gets X ability to negate the attack, models with special wargear (e.g force hoods) may use that instead”.
Yes balance is needed for psykers but you wont get balance if everyone stops using them because the risk of an expensive unit being useless is too high.
@Warren I completely disagree. I think this is so cinematic! 😛
Beside, if in 6th edition the emperor is dead. I expected that most of space marines’ psychic powers are out of control. The dead of the emperor should be somehow represented in 40K and this is the best way how to do it.
It was really needed in 40k such a rule. It is not fair space marines got all so much offensive capabilities and no defensive capabilities.
Of course this only applied to SM and not to Eldar, CSM , etc…
If it is the case, I believe this is elegant as it gets.
@linuxnavigator It does make sense if they kill off the emperor
Rumors has it in 6th he dies but before he dies predicts that a starchild with all his powers will one day come to unite all humanity against chaos and xenos.
Anyone else spot the Dark Angels book on the table? amazed that you didn’t mention the whole TWO powers that thier librarians get!
anyhows, Orks already have random psychics powers (every turn!)
I think that this rumour was “fed” out to try to find a leak…
What a load of rubbish, the next stage will be when you randomly select who you shoot at. Nice one workshop!
Why don’t you just reprint out the fantasy rulebook with a 40k label on, save you some money there.
Rumours, as always. Regardless, if the 40k ends up a replica of the Fantasy book, I don’t care about any excuses from GW or reasons to simplify rules: that’s just LAZY & bone-idle business towards the millions (and millions) or customers who happily (with a raised eyebrow) pay their hard-earned money towards your business, specially when Finecast still causes problems for people who’s local GW is miles away.
Apologiez for my little rant. But seriously, if it’s a replica of Fantasy somewhat, wouldn’t you think it’s just a bit of a lazy business move?
Truth is, we are all afraid and dislike change when this happens with Rulebooks. I wonder, though, was the fanbase negative towards the 5th Edition? I cannot recall as that’s when I returned to the hobby. But like myself, I’m afraid of change, and perhaps the 6th Edition will become awesome in time. Time.
For me, honestly, let’s just wait until this Relic is released into our hands. It’s seems to just cause heat, maybe to get fans reactions and make changes… But for me, I’m simply just too excited for GW to begin raising the bar in the 40,000 universe with fliers. It’s about time and long overdue.
I’m looking forward to these new releases. Admit, yes, I dread a Fantasy replica 40k book. I find most of these rumours annoying to hear about “realism”. Whatever. Just because you’re in front of your squad doesn’t mean you’ll be gunned down first. 50/50. This is why, from my knowledge, someone is on point (from a realistic view) to notice the enemy, and it’s most likely someone at the back who’ll get gunned down were they not paying attention. etc. etc. etc. I get why the rule is in place, but seriously, watch us exploit these rules like we do with the current ones. GW ain’t impoving, it’s just changing how our exploiting will work in the 6th edition. lmao.
But let’s just wait, shall we 🙂 Wait.
yes back at the change to 5th we had just as many people moaning i recall at the time most people moaned about assault getting nerfed but there were a lot of oddball rumors at the time that people get really angry about that didn’t turn up anyway apart from this psyker rumour Ive actually quite liked most of the new rules in theory but not sure if they’ll work in practice.
Totally agree it’d be lazy to reproduce the fantasy book but my experience of GW as a whole is they work hard for the majority of their customers even if we all complain about it at first :L
I no not like this idea.
I can’t see this one myself.
Take Eldar for a start, A farseer is 55 pts basic and then pays points depending on what psychic powers he has. My Farseer usually comes in at 178 pts.
How would it be possible to write an army list if you don’t know how much your psyker will cost you until you roll for his powers? They would have to rewrite the codex or do I get an extra Vyper because my Farseer didn’t get to spend all his points.
Hopefully this won’t stop people taking psykers, just keep rolling those 12’s 🙂
I have a friend that keep saying that if 6th Ed beeps up the game as much as he keeps hearing it will he’s going to go back to 4th Ed. And I have to say I agree with him.
The more I hear the more it sounds like there trying to fix something that is broken by breaking it even more.
I hope we’re wrong, but if we’re not, well….
Welcome to fantasy guys. It would not surprise me in the least to have randomly selected psychic powers.
I think there will be a repeat of what happened to fantasy happening to 40k where existing players will not like the fact that it’s an entirely new game.
Randomness, to me, makes a game more fun, more balanced but far less competitive because you could be winning the game and one good dice roll can turn the game around. To be honest that is what I really like about fantasy.
In my opinion GW strategy is about getting new gamers, not keeping old ones. I’m not being negative to GW because it is a good strategy that works for them and us. New gamers are how we grow wargaming as a whole.
@kingcaboose I agree with you. Things will change for good or worst and there is not need to cry over spilled milk. Come on people thing is only a game.
I think the biggest concern with that is GW has committed themselves to keeping the existing codices so they’re limited in what they can actually change even before they look into what needs to change, the end result is either they change stuff that doesn’t need changing to balance the stuff that can’t be changed, or a lot of FAQ-ing nonsense.
Fantasy also had a lot of really old army books. Didn’t stop them reinventing the game.
Would this apply to warlock powers for Eldar as well as they are psychic powers. If it was would there be a signature power for them as well for example enhance so you can reliably boost guardian squads still.
I can’t really see what the problem is (and I’m not being nasty either :D) I’ve just resently got into 40K after a few years of fantasy where the magic is randomised (ish). If it makes the game fairer I can see the problem, I guess it will stop people taking nothing but over the top powerful psyker powers???? Don’t go on a rant or a bitching session on me lol. I’m just don’t understand all the hostility?? I found when magic got too much in fantasy and it went random it made the game more challegening as you had to work harder and think tactically to fit in a poor magic selection…..wouldn’t it make it more challenging and tactical if it was random without just hoping your psyker kills everything…defeats the objective really…if thats the case just take an army of psykers and have a psyker battle off?? I hope some one can explain why its such a problem as in fantasy we get nuffed a lot and sometimes its for the better BUT it can be for the worse.
I can’t really see what the problem is (and I’m not being nasty either ) I’ve just recently got into 40K after a few years of fantasy where the magic is randomised (ish). If it makes the game fairer I can see the problem, I guess it will stop people taking nothing but over the top powerful psyker powers???? Don’t go on a rant or a bitching session on me lol. I’m just don’t understand all the hostility?? I found when magic got too much in fantasy and it went random it made the game more challenging as you had to work harder and think tactically to fit in a poor magic selection…..wouldn’t it make it more challenging and tactical if it was random without just hoping your psyker kills everything…defeats the objective really…if that’s the case just take an army of psykers and have a psyker battle off?? I hope some one can explain why its such a problem as in fantasy we get nerfed a lot and sometimes its for the better BUT it can be for the worse.
*can’t see the problem*
The problem is with models such as warlocks who perform the role of Exarch for Guardians not being able to reliably provide a bonus to units they lead. In this case Enhance which I think is the reason to put a warlock in the squad and not as part of a Farseer bodyguard.
If they incorporate fantasy style psychic power lists you could still have some control.
I like to use warlocks to enhance Guardian Storm Squads and Farseers to boost the Guardian Defenders and there own armour and hinder the opponent.
Random powers would be like saying making players roll to see what equipment the teams use (Guide is essentially just providing a unit with Twin Linked and Destructor uses the same rules as a heavy flamer). In Fantasy a magic user can pick which list to work off and effect how they play unless this is introduced then I think that is a problem.
In regards to making the game fairer wouldn’t it just lead to some games being unfair as the person with psychic powers has even more unreliability added. I may be missing something about over powered psychic characters as I thought they only worked well when supported by other troops.
Random is not that foreign to 40k. Just look at some units that you role for a special ability and what not. Chaos space marine possessed role for the demonic power they end up with, as well as Imperial guard penal legion role for what skill they have. Now grant it they don’t have psychic powers but this is much the same way I see random working in 40k.
What I do notice about the random ability factor in 40k is that nobody uses them. If said unit has a random element, it tends to be shunned buy the gaming community at large. If random psychic powers becomes the norm, it can be a safe bet psychers will become an endangered species on the table top.
I should also mention I like random powers for some units as it can come in handy. When everyone knows that your guy has JAWS! then your opponent more or less knows what you’ll do and react to it. But if the power is random, they need to try to cover all sorts of possible powers they will face. Grant it you could end up with a skunk of a power but that just a part of the fun you could talk to friends about after.
I think it’s hard to take a rumour of an isolated rule and then comment on it, because rules are made with the entire ruleset taken into account (in theory) i.e in concert with the entire context of the game. You might think A is stupid, but you are unaware of B and C, which, if you did know B and C, would make you think A was good, etc.
That being said, wizards, sorry, psykers, running around banging out powers can get really cheesy and anti-climatic. Characters, that are statistically very likely to always get their powers off, are less like psykers, and more like unit upgrades… which seems to not be the point of such people. Though it does heighten the tension that comes with the demand to kill them…
40K streamlined the magic system it took from Warhammer Fantasy. Perhaps it’s getting more complex and we’re only seeing bits of it. Imagine Imperial Guard Pyskers getting to choose between 3 different decks of powers etc.
The current “chose your psychic power”40K rule works because it’s usually only a few powers and you can only have a small number of wielders, often just the one. In fantasy the number of wizards can be much higher. IF the rumour of 6th edition having %s instead of a fixed number via Force Organisation is true, then the number of psykers on the battlefield, in 40k, could rise significantly, and that would require balancing issues such as making you select powers at random (though most armies will probably have a character that can choose all spells).
In the current 40K game, psychic powers fell more like upgraded weapons and bought rules, rather than magical powers.
What concerns me about this rule is that there are Armies which are depended on having psykers with specific powers.
Eldar are probably the most prominent of those. almost any army composition needs several posers to gain a chance for success.
On the other hand there are Armies which do not have any psykers.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the original Warhammer 40,000 had entirely random weapon selections I seem to remember being told.
I have to agree with Warren on this one.
IF the objective is to stop people spamming particualr psychic powers.Then a simple rule preventing the same powers being taken in the same army would achive this.
The ONLY way this random generastion of powers would work is if they had a set of generic psychic powers in the rule book that replaced the current codex ones.
But who would want that?
Okay so how would this affect my Orks who have roll randomly every turn anyway?
As a Tau player i love it
Great change. I see my zoanthropes dropping down near a Land Raider and unloading the devastating power of…. “dominion” or “the horror” to crack open the tank… oh wait! -.-
I’m really interested how GW will implement those random psychic powers. And they will come as the new rumors said that along with the 6th ed rulebook a card set with psychic powers will be released as GW did with magic lores in WHF.
I agree, I think although they tried to nerf the overpowered psykers, they are successfully going to totally nerf the ‘nids, as if they don’t have enough problems winning anyhow. And the GK’s? I know a lot of folks think they’re overpowered anyhow, but I do think that this will over nerf them a bit. I liked BOW’s idea, all psykers unique sounds a far better way to go to me. That would ensure only 1 JotWW in a Pups army, not spammed across the board. And while Lash sounds good, they so nerfed that with the need to roll to hit as well now. 🙁