Weekender XLBS: Talking Robotech & Getting Started With Painting!
June 7, 2015 by warzan
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Happy sunday. This one is really nice. I hope hobby lab returns. Cheers
Happy Sunday
Happy Sunday!
Happy Sunday folks, and for anyone wondering why Robotech RPG Tactics backers can be a bit…. salty, here is the latest post from the Kickstarter (in two parts no less!).
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/1255963
and
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/1256008?ref=backer_project_update
Note that there are no renders of the still outstanding Wave 2, and if you want images of the “exclusive” minis they want us to buy you have to go into the Palladium webstore…..
Whilst I understand the levels of complexity and multifaceted elements involved with a crowd funded project, the example described by Warren of the incompatibility between the file type which the designer will be using to the manufacturer’s, to me, is a fundamental parameter which needs confirming as early in the project as possible. This is squarely in the domain and within the remit of the project manager/s. This ideally, requires establishing well before the presentation to the public when requesting their financial support to kickstart the project.
Whereas I am fully aware of the high probability of a large and involved project going ‘off piste’ for a wide variety of reasons, the most fundamental elements really do need to be nailed down as much as possible!
I agree with Warren regarding the ‘psychology’ involved with such situations, being nonetheless complex, but, with hindsight, there often appears to be a disproportionate amount of time and effort applied to reactive finger pointing and witch hunting, post event, compared to proactivity during! These distinctions identify the ‘what’s in it for me’ individuals in society from the positively minded team orientated people, who are generally in the majority. Having worked in the motor industry for most of my 40+ years of working life, there is a common saying which identifies this: There is no I in TEAM, but there is a U in……….I’ll leave the ending up to your imagination and experience!
I will close on two other sayings: ‘ Buyers Beware’ and ‘ Once Bitten, Twice Shy’ I have always used these two as guidelines when purchasing, particularly from e-bay, and carefully scrutinise the ratings of sellers before making a commitment, note:(not always giving full credibility to one or two individuals who have posted negative feedback about a seller).
I agree completely about the file type testing!
The only circumstances where I can see this raising it’s head is if the manufacturing plant was changed for some reason. (Or the plant changed it’s systems – highly unlikely though)
But the point is that all these mistakes have always been happening, but you never heard about them we just saw a product launch.
KS has now let a few behind the curtain and the mistakes are now very public (and some times blown out of proportion)
But equally without kickstarter, this particular product would NEVER have saw the light of day IMHO
Looking at the timeline of this, it does seem like this was an issue that companies were only just starting to grasp back then.
Something we have been looking into a lot recently is how to get our product to a good stage by kickstarter and what we can plan ahead for. One thing I would like to mention is as Warren said the component parts of the machine that makes the monster are complex and vast. The factory will rarely change its machines or set ups but improving software is a different story. Both the manufacturer and the sub contractor designing the render will change reasonably quickly in the grand scheme of things. Maybe once a year there will be a software jump for improvement and to stay at the peak of industry the sub both will upgrade.
By the time we have finished kickstarter it will have been around 2 years from our first render to the final ones post kickstarter and it sounds bad but having already had models produced you may not think in the run up to kickstarter you may forget to ask the question are the new softwares compatible without any degradation of product. To make sure we will not hit these kinds of problems (I hope Murphy;s Law isn’t reading this) we have picked a company for render that regularly uses the model manufacturer we have decided upon. We are confident they have great comms and having watched todays episode I will make a pain of myself asking that very question every three months or so.
Crowd funding is key in this day and age to make the improbable or impossible become a reality not only by the skin of its teeth but if well planned to the maximum of its potential and beyond. The tabletop and RPG world has never been so rich and diverse and with more companies appearing it puts pressures on those around them to produce their best to stay competitive and remain good value for money.
“If you trust in yourself and believe in your dreams and follow your star, you’ll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren’t so lazy.”
Sir Terry Pratchett, although an author of fantasy many a reality can be found in his words.
Happy Sunday. Warren had asked why does one join a kick starter. I do kick starters cause I do like the project & for it to succeed, if I can get some cheap mini’s, bonus. I also treat kick starter like playing the stock market, it’s money I can afford to lose. Now if the project falls behind & the company has to have stores sell the project before sending me my stuff, ya my nose would be out of joint. But I would hope the company would be thoughtful enough even to send me the core set & send me my kick starter bonuses later. I know there would be two different shipping cost for the company & with the company making what ever money from store sales, the company will eat the cost of the second shipping. That way me & my mates can play the project at the same time with me not having the upper hand with the kick starter bonuses.
I personally agree with this 🙂
Backers are the best potential recruitment agents after all!
But … It comes down to cost 🙁
No quick fix I would say
Costs run the world & that is something we should all be use to. There is a quick fix & that is buying the project from a retailer. Other wise us backers of what ever kick starter we help fund, just have to wait till our baby is delivered 😉
Yeah Pacific was a great series.
The problem with the assertion that the RRPGT minis are laid out on the sprues as they are due to accuracy is that parts on the same sprue, for the very same mecha, have differing levels of detail. There is one destroid where three of the legs on the sprue have one piece of detailing and the fourth has a differing level of detail. Likewise vents have been placed over areas of surface detail.
And the reason I backed RRPGT was A) I’m a fan of Robotech and Macross, and figured some of the minis could cross-over easily into Battletech for double duty and B) everything they laid out in the frontpage seemed MORE than reasonable.
The issue regarding sending to retail first causing such a furor was the absolute insistence (at every stage) that backers would receive stock before retailers.
(Not defending them! But…) in plastics manufacturing it’s not about the amount of detail but the type of detail (undercuts etc) that determines how a piece can end up being placed on a sprue 🙂
And (again not defending them!) it’s understandable about the whole retail thing, but when time scales are slipping so badly, would it not be pragmatic for backers of the project to push for it’s presence at big events and be available for the biggest shopping points of the calander.
Again not debating the rights and wrongs, but looking at what is the mind set of someone who invested to bring something to life 🙂
I personally prefer Battletech, Robotech well i think its … well Robotech
What actually is the difference (I haven’t asked @dignity yet)
Robotech is the amalgamation of three separate anime shows (Super Dimensional Fortress Macross, Southern Cross & Genesis Climber Mospeda) by Harmony Gold to create one unified story known as Robotech, telling a conflict across three generations (The Macross Saga, The Masters and The New Generation).
Battletech (I believe) began life as a rules set to allow fans to use several of the mecha designs, from Macross in particular, on the tabletop. Due to rights issues several of the chassis that were direct ports into Battletech have become known as “The Unseen” as they were no longer permitted to use those designs in their game.
As a fan of both my intent was always to use some of the minis from RRPGT to bulk out my Battletech collection. Specifically the Tomahawk destroids for Warhammer heavy battlemechs….
Dude you hit it right on the head. I for one liked the anime show, but loved the Battletech game. Was thinking of doing the kick starter but had no money for it.
I believe it is very much an east vs. West in design philosophy.
Robotech is eastern and the designs have a larger focus on movement and mobility.
They essentially treat mechs as oversized infantry.
Battletech is more focused on having more dakka and the raw power that comes with it.
Western mechs are treated more akin to tanks.
And you would rarely see a western mech transform
battletech was a game set a little over 1000 years in the future were mechs had replaced tanks as the main weapon of war. It had similarities to 40k were humanity had reached a golden age of technology and exploration but it all falls apart and after countless years of war the ability to produce the advanced tech is lost. The system itself had hundreds of years of history and some of the best books i have read but it was all destroyed when Harmoney Gold sued FASA for using Mech designes copied from the robotech brand. Designs FASA had gotten permission to use from the creator and at the time Harmony Gold were not using but they sued any way and they won.
And bear in mind, whilst Palladium were shipping solely to US backers there were retailers all across the world offering RRPGT for sale in stock, and Palladiums were adamant they had not released it for International distribution. They seemed completely surprised that retailers could go to a US distributer for this stock rather than waiting for distributers in their respective territories to receive it.
And again (not defending them) but why would backers crucify them over something they have no control over?
Would you have them introduce GW style trading terms? That is the last thing that’s going to help a product gain traction.
Can you see why I get a feeling that they are being a bit unfairly battered, and it’s distracting from a pretty cool product, and also distracting the debate from areas where they could genuinely improve 🙂
Not at all, but they only changed there wording to specify regional distributers after stock had begun turning up. If they had said upfront that it may be a factor, most of us may have griped but could have accepted it.
Also, it wasn’t the models not being able to replicate the cover artwork that was the problem, it is that the images on the back of the box of the minis are damn-near impossible to re-create with what we received.
Had they has the foresight to see the project slip by a year they probably would have 🙂
Remember these companies publish dates for delivery that already have a bit of leeway built in.
At the time they convince themselves they can achieve this (very few deliberately set out to deceive)
Unfortunately these projects (read all projects) are almost impossible to accurately predict (I would say feature creep and do overs are a killer – because of the huge expectations both from the developers and the backers – a dangerous feedback loop!)
Again though I’m asking should backers of a project be pragmatic about these things for the good of the project.
Are they (or you) a part of the team that enabled it to come into existence, or is it just about the physical rewards on offer?
Except the project has slipped by more than a year, it’s now 19 months and counting. Forgetting that shortly after the project completed someone at PB told backers it was very likely shipping would start early in October 2013, the due date for the entire project was December 2013. Then they split it into waves, with the US getting wave 1 in November 2014, those of us in the rest of the world getting it in May 2015, and to date we’ve still seen nothing of the other half of the project that was shunted to wave 2. There are genuine fears that we have lost our wave 2 money, as we’ve now had 5 months of “big announcement coming soon” while PB has started churning out what could only be described as “we desperately need money” merchandise like mouse pads and such.
Backers don’t mind so much when a project is late if the creator is honest and communicates regularly, like with Dreamforge. Palladium Books has mismanaged the project, ignored feedback, and consistently lied to backers at every single turn about every single thing, which is why everyone is angry.
And for the record I appreciate the fact that you chaps took the time to address the issues some of us had with the unboxing and I’m genuinely interested by what you had to say regarding the assembly of the minis. I still think the starter set minis are fiddlier than they need to be, but given these were your & Justins first efforts Warren, and your first real exposure to the franchise, I’m actually really glad you didn’t find them too difficult too assemble.
As for the issue regarding the lack of rulebook force lists, I would take your point regarding just using cards saving on needing new books when you expand. However this book is pitched as the core rules for the Macross-era specifically and they funded everything from this series during the Kickstarter campaign. Most of us who backed expected PB to release further books to cover the later eras if RRPGT proved a success, but expected some form of lists in the core book. As it is the cards are exceptionally fiddly
For a hobbylab I’d like to see how to make bases for terrain pieces, I’ve been using mdf but most of it warps badly. I’ve used different approaches; hot glue, pva, superglue, BoW magimix (since it’s dryer than pva),.. All of it warps the mdf so I’ll need a new basematerial to use, thought you guys might help with that 🙂
Let me look into it 🙂
Same here but I now use plywood. Just get a small sheet from Wickes (UK), Home Depot I guess in the states, when I need new base material. 🙂
try thin coats of varnish with time to dry between to minimise the liquids going into the board at one time which makes the board warp socking in.
Hmm interesting! I’ll give that a go in the future!
Seal your MDF before you do anything with it, used to build kitchens and when working around the wet areas if you didnt seal the stuff it just swelled when it got wet.
I wouldn’t use pva to seal it as it has too much water in it and will cause warping, you really want something solvent based. I used to use sanding sealer (have a look on ebay or amazon for cellulose sanding sealer) just paint or spray it (you can get good results if you thin it enough and use a spray bottle) on let it dry and away you go.
My question around the delay etc is why they don’t bring on board a proper project management specialist using something like PRINCE 2 as this would help the companies at the front end of project with setting expectations etc.
In one comment you just managed to make every hair on the back of my neck stand upright he he 🙂
After we stopped working on public sector projects and arrived here in gaming, I thought (and hoped lol) I would never hear the words ‘PRINCE 2’ uttered at me every again lol
PRINCE 2 aside project management is a key failing in the industry and a key opening for a consultancy practice these days
Hey I work as a PM in the public sector… Prince 2 is not being used by me…lol
Transformers? Na, the Veritech fighters look NOTHING like a transformer! 😉
Well, I didn’t want to be the guy to point out the Jetfire-Veritech connection, so have yourself a congratulatory “bomp”* for mentioning it 🙂
*makes sense if you’ve read MTMTE 😉
Cheers chuck, is that a Cygar head on Generations Kup as your avatar? I have one of those kicking about!
I have the Decepticon symbol as part of a tattoo…”little” bit of a TF fangirl!
It is indeed. Love that head, made Sgt Kup even more bad-ass 😉
And always good to meet a fellow TF fan. No tats myself but I may have a minor TF addiction i need to get looked at, given I spent a good hour yesterday Reprolabling CW Prime :p
@lloyd OWNED THIS!!!!
Bro… Blast from the past waiting on the link above 🙂
I recently sold one in bad shape for dirt cheap, had a stall with ALL sorts of TF goodness at a local collectibles fair!
Niiiice. Love tracking down TF’s at bootsales & cons. Always good odds you can find something to fill a gap in your collection or that you can flip for a profit online 🙂
Yup just what I was tinking as well. 😀
It kind of makes sense when you know that transformers started with collecting tranforming robot toys from existing toylines.
As for the in-between mode, who didn’t do that when they played with their transformers toys. 😛
I’ve still got that Jetfire toy. Along with all my Transformers toys. Till all are one!
And I got the Robotech version as well…
I was about to post a few comments but @dawfydd has already posted them all and @warzan has already answered them. Lol
So thank you for saving me from having to fight with my phone even more than I normally do. Lol
One thing I do have to mention though… @warzan. Youbsay it took you 15 minutes for the figure… How long to put it together and not have gaping joins/seamlines..? :-p
17mins?
Meh. Lol
Dammit. Why does the sticking tongue out thing never work..? Lol
Oh. And @warzan. I want to especially thank you for your time looking at this. There are many other factors than those you mentioned but It’s good to get an independent take on something you’re passionate about some times. I may not necessarily agree with some bits but I’ll try my best to not let my “dislike” for Palladium Books run away again in the future. 🙂
Really trying to just forget about this whole Robotech fiasco and move on to other things but some points need to be made. They promised details and missed obvious details on models that could have been easily implemented. Rockets on officer pod legs, lights on battle pods etc. neither of which would have added a single additional part to the model.
I don’t mind the part counts it’s the decision to make cuts in bad places when they didn’t need to which was proven when ND listened to some criticisms and eliminated a few bad placed cuts. Then they quit responding to backers at all. They showed some prototypes of a few models for wave 2 that were horrible and inaccurate and then instead of responding to our concerns about them we have been faced with virtual radio silence for months.
Then we are promised a big update for months and today we get it and instead of info on the progress of wave 2, photos of prototypes, listing of which models have been completed etc. we are told the same info that we already knew that they are shooting for dec 2015. We get 19 pages of Palladium history, excuses that basically toss ND under the bus, and a pitch to sell us more models for Robotech before wave 2 is even complete.
All we wanted from this update was concrete information on what was happening with wave 2 and we got nothing. They want us to preorder new models for this line and can’t be bothered to show us where they are at with wave 2 and how they have improved and listened to our concerns by showing us the new renders and prototypes. I still want this to succeed because I love Robotech but I feel like it’s just becoming more of a source of frustration than joy so I have stepped back and I am taking a break from it for a while.
One last thing I totally disagree with the sentiment of going with less detail and turning them into smaller piece models becoming board game pieces. I backed a wargame and not a boardgame. High piece count does not have to be an issue if it is done properly.
It’s not the delays that have annoyed people it’s the lack of communication and promises to improve and then communication just got worse. Kickstarters and delays go hand in hand but everyone where there was good communication I found the majority of backers to be accepting and forgiving of delays In the project.
Anyways I’m done talking about this and will just wait to for wave 2 and hope for the best. I understand the intense anger from some but to wish the company to go under is something I don’t understand. I want to see more Robotech not less, if they go under trust me nobody else is going to pick up the torch.
Loved the conversation on painting btw. Beside the great painting tutorials on BOW I subscribed to miniaturementor.com and have found them to be the best painting tutorials in the business. They use the most talented mini painters and the close up HD cameras they use and angles they shoot from allow you to see every brush stroke from the view of the painter. Highly recommend them for beginners and those looking to pick up a few new techniques and I am in no way affiliated with them just a fan.
Miniature Mentor are amazing… They’re not exactly in the same price range as my tutorials, but they’re probably the best you can get for the sheer variety of painters (and thus techniques) provided. And they’re ALL masters ! 🙂
Loved your skin tutorials. Was nice seeing a talented painter like yourself paint up some kingdom death miniatures.
Before I forget I love For The Win and would love to see Lloyd do the same with Dust Tactics. Any chance of that happening?
what a great idea, come on the @lloyd – LOD – Lord of Dust
Happy Sunday!
Talking through those painting things was great, Im at the point where I wouldnt be anywhere near an expert BUT! I havent been a beginner for a while either so this has been very helpful. I need a new set of brushes too. Not buying GW again though.
Regarding the Kickstarer thing Dust fell into the same trap and theres a lot of angry people, Im one of them but Id like to think I didnt become the hater, afterall I kept a level head I didnt go instant HATE of Battlefront like they attempted to make us. But I have done a lot of Kickstarer but that one I went into for the deal, it was an advertised deal at that point.
Mars Attacks I went in for the project, same with Journey Wrath of Demons. I have mixed feeling because whilst a project should be maintained its hard to get your head around something being sold before its delivered. Because its not really fair to me.
As far as the Robotech things Im with Warren, I remember the show as a kid and it was “okay” in my eyes but the game was never an interest to me, I love anime but I dont feel robotech aged very well… For me.
Is there sound and pic sync problem for you also guys ?
I saw this, but just ‘re-wound’ my video a few seconds and it cleared up.
Happy Sunday, loving the painting talk. I have been teaching my nephew to paint and the hardest thing for him is not painting straight from the pot.
My first major breakthrough in painting was learning to thin my paints.
Almost forgot loved John’s painting on the Bombshell miniature.
As a reasonably experienced modeller, the number of parts on those Robotech models would put me off. Not that I mind spending 15-20 minutes on a model, but spending 15-20 minutes on a lot of models is time consuming and frustrating. This isn’t beginner friendly especially when you compare it to starter sets from other companies. Also it would take me at least another 20 to 30 minutes to get the model Warren built up to a point I would be willing to undercoat. I can understand the frustrations of the community on this point.
I agree totally. It’s the one area that I think Justin and Warren were perhaps responding defensivley rather then impartially. Those sprues are too complex for a 28mm model. The example of Lehman Russ tank having equal complexity misses the point (it’s a big tank FFS).
It’s a valid complaint and if it builds up a community something the owners can work on in the future.
Robotech is not my bag so I’ve not got any desire to defend this product, but what I saw left me no desire to get involved either.
My point about the old leman russ kits was more about it being an essential part of a beginner army for an IG player.
On the model Justin built for example there were a ton of optional bits left on the sprue.
The model I built had the components for two builds.
If an expert says it is possible with the same detail (as possibly required by the licencesee) that is spot on however – I’m not that expert – are you?
Seriously cant believe the amount of bitching about getting a tonne of bits for your bits box that you can use all over the shop, the “we were promised something” winging falls flat on me. The chances are that you invested a tiny amount of money (in the scheme of things) which wouldn’t even be worth going to small claims/judge judy over, get over it the hype rarely lives up to what is delivered, businesses only have an obligation to make money, not pander to myopic fanboys who fail to see that there is more complexity to delivering product than a kick starter page and some update posts. Simple solution to “its too difficult to build”, proxy some transformers in place and ebay the sprues that are too much for u 😉 never mind the fact that i personally would hate simple models, always felt cheated when i got a kit which was simple even as a beginner wanted the complexity, but im one of those sorts that likes the challenge of complexity and bad instructions in building something cool as much, if not more than the gaming, but meh horses for courses….
just blame all the issues with robotech on harmony gold even if it is not their fault. I have no love lost on that company they are responsible for the death of my favorite table top game. They killed Battletech and deserve as much hate mail as possible
Isn’t Battletech still going strong? I have the 25th anniversary starter and Catalyst put out new books fairlly regularly
Loved the talk of painting – we looked at something similar in the range of “what do you need to get started” for your painting station …
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtTbPkXjEgE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcxRde78Fig
I always recommend (because of the knives) plasters. Lots of plasters. Me and my son have a disagreement though on painting models – I prefer doing as much as you can on the sprue first then assembling – often once assembled you just can’t reach some bits!
Have to say I’m fully behind Warren on this very controversial subject – prepping the model and removing mold lines, flash etc should be something instilled right from the start of a painters journey 🙂
Happy sunny Sunday – when I really should be mowing the lawn…
Happy Sunday
Great weekender guys. My painting is pretty bog standard, but I am one of those that my painting area consists of a dinner tray and I sit on the sofa.
Prep work is important, but I mean as in getting your stuff ready for painting. I have a large unpainted collection, and a large selection of paints, so what I do is I work out what I intend to paint, dig out the paints for that project and those models, and pop them in an old ice cream tub That way when I get the chance to paint I just pick up the box and I am good to go.
As for having a goal I can attest to that. My local club were running a Warmahordes journeyman league, in which you got points for games played, games won, ‘special moves’ (slam 3 models, caster kill etc) and painting. As I had something to work towards I managed to get my entire Minions Faction (about 75 points worth) in 3 months.
Not really into robotech apart from identifying them as original Battletech models but the brief look at the sprues they don’t seem any more complicated than a 1/72 tank to build
For tufts you would be far better going to railway modelling sites as you will get about 4 times the amount of tufts for the same price as AP charge for theirs and also a lot more variety including shubberys etc
Have Mat O War sold their range?. They used to be near Kildare and you could order direct from them. Sad if they’ve gone
I meant to add for your hobby lab stuff maybe you could some on the stranger bits like simple casting with superglue etc
It’s not like Kevin Siembieda to be involved in drama lol.
I didn’t back Robotech as it isn’t my thing so beyond the long delays I haven’t been aware of any of the issues until now. I read the big two-part update and as someone with no emotional attachment or desire to read information that wasn’t given, I thought the updates got across just how things have went so badly wrong. I did back Relic Knights in which Soda Pop (the design studio that co-founded Ninja Division) teamed up with Cool Mini or Not (as publisher and distributor) for the first big successful new KS minis game that would be manufactured in China. This was late in the summer of 2012 and had an estimated shipping date of May 2013. The Robotech KS campaign started the month before this. Relic Knights wound up shipping over a year late, with the long delays caused by grossly underestimating what was involved in getting the minis manufactured and shipped from China, something which was new to both CMoN and SPM. Reading Kevin’s update, it seems pretty clear that Robotech was conceived of before these problems became apparent and the same mistake was made, only it was compounded by neither Palladium or Ninja Division having any experience of distributing a game manufactured in China, which is something CMoN had done with SDE and Zombicide.
Inexperience causing overreach and a literal incompetence between the two companies in one of the major areas involved in fulfilling the KS seem to be the root of the problem here. I can understand why Kevin kept silent for long periods and why he is reticent to give specifics on what they plan to do (for the same reasons Warren and Lloyd highlighted). I do think that other campaigns have shown that some communication, even if it’s to say nothing, is better than none. Since Ninja Division took over as publisher’s for SPM in late 2013, they have stuck to a weekly update every week without fail, even if they’ve had nothing to say, which suggests it’s a lesson they learnt from RK and Robotech. I feel for the people who backed this project. I remember how frustrating it was waiting for RK and I had everything I pledged for 15 months after the shipping estimate, which Robotech has already exceeded with no definite end in sight. The only positive I can offer is that once it arrived, it was well worth the wait.
The best thing to compare RRT with is Deadzone. Both were on KS at the same time – Robotech funded May 21 2013, Deadzone June 3 2013. Both were basic projects extended out beyond orbit by stretch goals. Both were manufactured in China. Both had an initial promised due date of December 2013
Mantic honestly admitted that due to scope creep, they couldn’t get everything done in time. Despite that, they split it into waves, got wave 1 to backers ahead of schedule in November, wave 2 in July 2014, and finally a small wave 3 in December 2015. They’ve since funded an expansion on KS (not to mention 4 other games, 1 delivered, 1 2/3 delivered, 2 wip), which is already under way and appears to be on schedule. They communicated quite frequently, even if only to say things were still ongoing, shared images of wip and masters asap, did their best to answer questions, and took community feedback over design issues ie removing the too-40k claws and mauls from the Peacekeeper sprue design.
Palladium made no admissions, suggested it could be done by October 2013, and then as each deadline came and went kept pushing it back by 2 months, promising they would hit it next time. Then when the 4th deadline came and went, and people started asking pointed questions, they were caught out several times telling lies about exactly where in the process they were. They’ve lied from the start, continue to lie today – the 2 part “update” from Kevin today is ego trip, sob story, blame game, credit grab, and money beg all in one – and most damning, in the same time frame plus 7 months all they have shipped is one wave, with just under half of the stuff, plus showed maybe half a dozen 3d printer possible masters at a couple conventions as the extent of what is done in wave 2.
The big difference between those projects is that Mantic had had a lot of previous experience manufacturing their minis in China, including two previous KS campaigns. They were among the first, if not the first, western wargames manufacturer to switch to producing plastic minis in China. At the time the Robotech campaign was conceived and then ran, neither PB or ND had any experience of it, and ND were still under the impression their RK campaign was months away from being manufactured, when instead it was over a year away for many of the same reasons Robotech has been delayed. The communication issue I agree with, as I indicated in the previous comment. The best thing you can do is communicate frequently and honestly.
ND weren’t the problem though, PB and HG were. This project was meant to be entirely run by ND, basically subcontracting to make the game for PB, and PB only acting as the conduit between ND and HG. Then when the project ends and there’s a million dollars sitting there, what do you think Siembieda did? Suddenly they’re running the project, he’s writing the rules, and ND are just doing some contract minis for them. This is where it all fell down of course, as PB can’t communicate for peanuts, and HG are notoriously finnicky over details and incredibly slow to make decisions and send responses. So where in any normal project the plastic maker does a design, checks if it physically works, maybe gets some backer input, toys with it a few more and then has it done within a month, ND designs the mini PB wants, sends it to PB, PB takes 2-3 weeks to send it on to HG for approval, HG sits on it for 4 weeks, sends change requests to PB, PB takes 2 weeks, adds their own conflicting changes, forwards it to ND, who have to start again. Apply that 3 times to every mini and you can see why the manufacturing part for ND fell through – they couldn’t even get a product approved to send to the factory for the production slot they booked.
If you haven’t ever had dealings with Palladium Books before then I can understand how you come to your conclusions on this. But Kevin Siembieda has a reputation of being a corner cutting egotistical dictator. ( Maybe a little harsh but i’m sure you get the point. ) He’s been hoisting blame off onto other people for things that are his fault for at least the last couple of decades. Nothing is ever his doing – despite him holding a tight rein on things and calling all the shots.
I’ve played a lot of Palladium rpgs in my time, going back 30 years. I can remember his excuses for why the Rifts books were late (“I subcontracted them, the books were not up to the usual Palladium standard of awesome so I scrapped them and re-wrote them). To quote myself from the first comment – “It’s not like Kevin Siembieda to be involved in drama lol”. That said, it is pretty clear that Kevin got himself in over his head on something he wasn’t equipped to deal with, but also that Ninja Division hadn’t yet realised that nine months or so was nowhere near enough time to deliver a project like this. That much was clear from the RK campaign.
Ahh. My bad. I missread your comment. Doh. Sorry about that. 🙁
Fair enough, but Kevin is a bit clueless at most things though. He doesn’t ask for advice because ‘he knows best’ and then gets all uperty and blames everyone else when things go tits up. lol
I thought Relic Knights was mostly down to CMoN though…?
@tasker: The delay was down to manufacturing and shipping taking over a year longer than planned, which was partly because the campaign funded too much stuff and partly because they severely underestimated how long the process would take. The terrible communication was down to CMoN. They held off right until the last moment before announcing a six-month delay on the grounds that they wanted to know how long it was actually going to take before discussing a delay, which is fair enough, but after that we still only got an update once every few months. When the six month delay came and went with no sign of fulfillment in sight and still no communication, Soda Pop/Ninja Division took over answering comments and releasing updates from CMoN and things improved a lot then. Though the difference in that case was ND had also taken over distributing Relic Knights so it was their game by then. All CMoN had left to do was distribute the KS pledges and hand the remaining stock over.
Happy sunday folks
Ref painting armies – you should still pick the models you want to paint and look good in your army, don’t be drawn into the “MUST have this unit”. Build/paint the army you want
As for staying motivated – try not to buy too many minis and let a backlog build up!! I know shiny syndrome is difficult for us all to cope with, but having a large pile of minis sat next to you waiting to be painted whilst you work on another unit can be a big de-motivator.
(I have to say I’m very guilty of this one and have to hide unpainted stuff away and only get out one unit at a time).
As you guys mentioned, set yourself targets.
My current one is to get my Bolt Action Germans painted before I can start working on Guilliman (and I’m dying to get him started!)….. only another 20 troops and 3 StuGs to go…. However I know if I start him and leave the germans they’ll get pushed to the side afterwards in favour of something else…
LMAO @ johns face while the B.O.W brothers are arguing over semantics hehehe
Didn’t DP9 just have the exact same problem with the designs of the plastic gears from their own KS? Only in the last month or so have we started to see the renders of the reworked designs.
Anyway, mad diplomacy checks there, @warzan 😀
I found it depends on the kick starter as y I back it imfamy I backed to get a stunning project off the ground where as and think buy cool mini or not and ninja devien I back to get the see of free stuff don’t get me wrong I still need intrest In the product but with them I do view it as sure fire thing
@warzan you guys still looking producers in particular for hobby lob ?
@volten yes get in touch 🙂
@warzan sent you though an email
@volten I haven’t seen that come through mate 🙂
Resent it man
Happy Sunday. Very informative show. Would love some ideas and tips on making 15mm bunkers and fortifications.
Happy Sunday
A bumper long episode today. I even had to get up and for another brew.
Its great to see a video that shows the guys at the BoW team putting time aside to address matters within the community. I have to agree with Warren in relation to what he has said. Seeing the breakdown of a single model on sprue I can only imagine how many individual pieces will make up the backers orders when the kickstarter was backed for 1.4 million. I would hate to be one of the team quality assuring each sprue.
I agree communication is key when you have something to say but just as important when you don’t even if it is just “yep we are still waiting on the rendering team for final product.” Delays of some sort are inevitable and the logistics required when too successful in a kickstarter may not be in place. This is something I think worth mentioning. Being too successful can cause issues as well because even with the funding a model production company will only produce so many an hour and this is in line with all the sub contrators as well. If you take on new you have to test their processes potentially to meet demand making more issues or you suck it up add the time to the release date and hopefully keep a consistency in the product you are happy with by remaining with who you know. That’s not to say they have to stop for other companies or prior commitments they are contracted to.
There are so many variables you will not be able to cater for as you don’t know if you will be backed at all. I understand peoples frustration and that communications are vital even if you have to tell the backers something they do not want to hear. Honesty is the best policy and with it you may be angry at them but more importantly you know where you stand.
@ warzan I am sold on the water effect fake leather, I know you mentioned there were other versions of the material. Is that something that is going to be part of the hobby lab? Also I think it is worth mentioning, people need to take breaks when painting. Its is very easy to lose time when you are engrossed in finishing a model and almost always you are probably not in the best position when painting. The audible groan when you have been there too long and finally get up to empty your old mans bladder makes you fully aware of this after the fact. Also worth mentioning to look away every so often at something that’s a reasonable distance away just to allow you eyes a bit of a rest.
Well done to BOW for a balanced discussion & response to the Robotech RPG Tactics issue- I felt your report on the issue was well outlined & the key points broken down in a professional manner.
Eeeeew, you mentioned Defunct Games… As one of the fools that backed Tony’s epic fail of a company and kickstarter, I felt a chill run down my spine at the utterance of those words!
Great show 🙂 I really enjoyed the discussion on painting. I found for me having to high expectations of what I wanted put me off painting. Things like assuming that I would be able to recreate what Romain does first time and getting annoyed when I couldn’t. I think though no matter the results the important thing is to keep trying as it will get better. I think of it like loosing weight. You go to the gym for two weeks feel like there should be a change and there isn’t so you give up. But if you keep going and make it routine over time you notice results. That was pretty much what happened with me for painting 🙂
Damn I miss Battletech – the game I moved to as a young lad when I moved away from GW. Great models and very customisable – the fact that you could design your own mechs was great. Only problem is that my first love was the ‘unseen’; Stinger, Archer, Warhammer, Rifleman etc. If they sold those Robotech minis in individual blisters I’d be salivating over them… in face I sort of am. Can’t say they look too complex – but I build Infinity models and, much as I love them, they bring fiddly to a whole new level.
Anyway, happy sunday guys.
If it helps the Warhammer, Archer, Longbow & Rifleman come in doublepacks giving you two of each respective chassis. I think the breakdown is Warhammer/Rifleman, Archer/Longbow
Happy Sunday guys. I love looking at Warren and Lloyd having a bit of an argument, neither one willing to back down. And looking at John rolling his eyes in the background. My favourite part of the show. 🙂 I wonder who would win in a real fight. I’d say that Warren had the upper hand growing up but Lloyd could put it up to him now.
1:25:00 “it is disgusting what he wips out”
Phrasing!
I think on Painting I’m kindof more in Romain’s camp now with technique (even if I’m more on par with Justin for results…), but when I started out I had the wee sheet of grainy photos that came with my Space Marines(I actually started when the marines with tea trays for hands were brand new so the molds hadn’t worn out and I didn’t get too much flash) and If I’d had the access to different points of view I have now(if I’d tried to watch BoW videos then I’d have had to wait several hours for each one, not counting the 15 years for the invention of youtube) , I’d have ignored the GW methods of the time almost entirely, and not had to spend a good 5 or 6 months unlearning them.
My other (neglected) hobby is Airsoft, and through that I’ve talked with a bunch of military types, training instructors, etc and they have a concept of training scars, which is when you learn to do something a certain way because it works, and having learned that, and repeated it thousands of times, it becomes automatic to the point were when you learn a better way you still try to do it the old way, because that’s what you expect to do, and I see that happening with the painting videos, if someone starts out with the GW guides they’ll know how to paint GW’s minis with GW’s Paints, that doesn’t mean they won’t be able to paint warmahoards stuff if you sit them down with Valejo gear, but there will be steps that take a bit more thought for them when they don’t have the GW system to fall back on.
My painting motivation is fuelled by the Oath thread on SomethingAwful.com – for a 12 month season (June is month #2 of the current season) each month you oath to paint something, and you paint it. There’s also monthly technique and theme challenges for extra points to test and learn new abilities. When you complete that oath you have the chance to win monthly, quarterly and annual prizes – ranging from annual grand prizes for the real stars judged in the top 10, down to random draws for scrubs like me 😛
When I’m painting, I try to find 2 hours a day, every day, you’d be surprised how quickly it adds up. Where possible I do it while watching/listening to the Weekender and XLBS, but also podcasts like The Independent Characters and the Tuesday Club, or if there’s nothing new and I’m desperate, I boot up Spotify.
Happy Sunday!
How do I approach a Kickstarter? Hmmm…
I tend to approach them with the expectation that the shipping date will slip, I tend to WANT a bag of goodies but I don’t always EXPECT them, I’ll only back projects I want to see succeed rather than just wanting cheap models, I also tend to only pledge money I can afford to lose. I find that by following these basic tenets I can live with delays and with the company selling to people to generate cash, like you say they’re constantly spending money just to keep the lights on.
I’m not going to lie, I do get frustrated at things going to general sale before I receive them, but when it comes down to it I try to remain realistic when these things happen. As a backer I’m reliant on the product not being delayed, shipping to the warehouses not being delayed and shipping of a small amount of items to one person in hundreds or thousands not being delayed and having worked in warehouses I can say a lot of the time bigger orders (shops/stockists) will be filled first because they’re comparatively quicker and simpler to pick and ship and so move the most mass out quickest. I’m also reliant on the company having enough money to not have to go into desperate fundraising measures, which isn’t always possible.
There are instances where companies can really distance me (Dust if I’m honest) though that’s normally down to the way the company acts or communicates rather than problems with product delivery. I’d rather have updates telling me why I’m not receiving my stuff than empty promises or platitudes, give me information and if you have no information say so.
I can’t speak for Robotech since I have no history with that particular KS.
Wow, I’ve used a lot of words to say not much. To summarize, basically I think you need to approach it all realistically, never over-invest and try to keep a cool head.
That’s my tuppence anyway, take it as you will.
I have never backed a KS but do other products that arent gaming related have these problems and do they also offer masses of stretch goals etc or is it just a one of product they are offering and do they have deadline that slip or is this just a gaming related problem?
Stretch goals are almost exclusively the domain of video and tabletop games, but manufacturing, design and money delays do hit other projects – basically the more pie in the sky (tech that can’t really exist, things with ‘alleged’ health benefits) and/or does this thing seriously need to exist (yet another iPad dock/case/stand) a project is, the more likely it will run into serious issues between design and manufacture, leading rapidly to the project running out of money and dying.
I’ve backed a few non-gaming related Kickstarters (and other crowd-sourcing projects) and they can all hit roadbumps. Stretchgoals depends on the specific campaign. Some do, some don’t. Some can take just as long, if not longer, to fulfill than gaming ones, some will be earlier, but so can some gaming campaigns.
For example: a hardback collection of a webcomic I’m a fan of took an exceptional amount of time to get books to backers, but that was A) because they chose to ship “in house” so to speak and B) there was unfortunately a death in one of the teams family that affected the ability to ship.
But they took the time to let backers know when & why there were delays. Didn’t have to for the latter, but they felt that they should make sure we were informed.
I didn’t back Robotech, but know friends who did, and I recall them getting all excited by it in 2013, it’s now nearly two years later and they are still waiting for most of thier pledge still. I’m not surprised people are angry… And the excuses companies give for selling the product at retail before pledgers get the product are pretty piss poor to be honest. If you the company are having issues, that’s your problem, deal with it. The people who funded the project should be first priority, because all it does is leave a bad taste. A lot of these KS that go wrong, seem to me, to be because of piss poor planning.
Well that all I have to say on it.
Painting, a subject I really enjoyed… I’ve painted on commission, for competitions and my own table top over the years. It’s an activity I find rather relaxing, and helps me unwind. I use to enter comps because I found that it helped me to push my ability and learn new techniques. I agree with Lloyd that your workspace is essential. I find if mine is a tip then I less likely to want to sit down and slap some paint on a mini. I have no real preference for a particular brand of paint, but I really do like the old Rackham paints,which I still have a large collection of.
The last couple of years I started painting other scales besides 28mm, mostly 54mm as well as a few at 15mm and recently 1/72. I’ve noticed that it requires additional skill and mind sets when painting at a scale out of your comfort zone, but it has helped to improve my techniques.
Happy Sunday
great show guy’s. As far as kickstarters go i’ve only invested in 1, it was the ” Bones II ” and all was well with it.
When i got my mini’s they were actualy better than i had hoped.
P.S.
I used to enter local GW painting comp’s to get free access to games day, worked every time. 🙂
I really enjoyed the episode and it was great to have on whilst I was doing some work on a storm eagle in my painting station 🙂
Is anyone else having a problem with the Audio keeps on going but the Video just stops after 8ish minutes?
Wow I just lost a load of respect for you guys.
There was a lot in the show this week, so you’ll hopefully excuse me if I ask you why? 🙂
Just the sheer “anti-backer” attitude you 3 showed.
I really didn’t pick up any anti-backer attitude. What I heard was a business opinion as opposed to a customer opinion. I also heard a very valid question “why do you back kickstarters, is it to help someone realise a dream or is it to get loads of stuff on the cheap?” Personally I think both are valid reasons for backing a project but if you understand your reasons for backing I think you can start managing your own expectations
Painting advice for new painters… Lots of interesting and useful thoughts in this show.
On the subject of which miniatures to start with I would just add… Don’t start with Space Marines. I know they look cool and they’re a ‘starter army’ to game with, but I (still) find them very hard to paint to a decent standard because of the (lack of) texture. Large, smooth surfaces with rounded edges require good blending to get looking very nice. Chainmail and a fur cloak are easy because you can wash and/or drybrush and get a great effect. Neither of those techniques works on power armour.
I think something like Heroquest was / is a fantastic place to start. You get a variety of models to maintain your interest, you get an achievable goal to work towards, you get lots of textures to play around with and being fantasy you get lots of room for personalisation and experimentation.
I think sometimes it’s really good to just get a few individual figures to get started on, and try different colours and painting schemes.
Even now, I’m supposed to be doing a Dark Eldar army, but I’m buying an occasional cowboy figure to paint, because knowing “I still have 40 wyches to paint” is kind of soul destroying. An occasional model just for fun is great.
Buy a bunch of cheap minis like the reaper bones line. Lots of fun sculpts but you can paint away and not worry about ruining a nice figure that you bought and are to nervousness to lay some paint on. Don’t be lazy and sloppy with applying techniques your experimenting with but at least if you make any mistakes, it’s not a big loss and two gives you a chance at learning how to correct such mistakes and lastly nothing beats practice and experience.
Yeah when I saw the Robots I instantly thought of Starscream….
I can understand those who backed the RRPGT Kickstarter being angry at how things have gone but that angst should not be aimed at BOW unboxing of retail products. It should be aimed at the companies involved. I have backed a number of Kickstarters and none have ever delivered on schedule albeit not as late as this one appears to have been.
Hooray hobby labs! Looking forward to seeing you talk about your junk some more.
Regarding getting into painting I think you missed (though did touch on a bit) that before you do anything you have to ask why you are painting. Some people paint for painting’s sake, some want to do units to a “gaming standard”, some only want to be three colours basic to get into tournaments, some people care about speed, etc. etc. Why you are painting will affect all your other painting decisions.
For example, for Christmas I bought my stepbrothers (aged 8 and 10) Space Hulk and they asked me how to paint them. What really mattered to them (and me) was that they maintained their enthusiasm. So I had them buy a packet of cheap brushes. I had built the models for them (so no prepping required) but I also didn’t even mention undercoating to them. They started with some second hand humbrol paints (I think) but one of them had an allergic reaction so I bought them GW base paints (red, blue, yellow, black, white, gold, silver) and trusted them to mix up anything else they needed. They could get stuck into painting immediately and didn’t have to worry about multiple layers of paint, shading, etc. The end results are actually quite good for their first batch of models.
As their interest grows I can then introduce them to more painting techniques such as undercoating, drybrushing, etc. But too much info at the start could have scared them off.
Happy Sunday you’ll. Thank you for the incite into the kick starter, I think I’m one who gets into a kick starter to see a project make it in this world . Plus to get some cool stuff too , would I get upset if the stuff makes it to retail before I get my stuff I really do not know, I hope not, now that I’ve herd what you’ll just said, but I just do not know?
Now with painting , I to have just gotten back to painting after about 8 years. Found that my GW paints are as you say hard as rocks. I’ve moved to some Vallejo and pick up some of the newer GW paints. Not so sure how to use the different types? Question, is there a way to save paints when they get to that rock stage, or are they just toast ? Me , I like to build the mini’s and the models more than the painting. It helps me to dream away the Bullshit from day , and I just can’t get my paint jobs to look like what I want them to.
Hay, John not to be a pain in the ass, but any chance of having you go through your painting of Bolt Action mini’s from start to finish, like the Germans please.
Thanks Guys for your time, and hay a grand day. 🙂
Im sure that is a topic I will visit at some point. There is a lot of painting videos I want to do for sure
For Kickstarters communication is key, and even if it is not done regularly it can be done effective – I doubt you will find many Kingdom Death : Monster backers that complain and yes it is delayed
I backed Robotech RPG Tactics and haven’t been the happiest with the outcome of the fans. Robotech has a lot of licensing issues/copyright problems/etc and honestly I do blame a lot on Harmony Gold; but I don’t understand how everyone can be so mad. If the fans want Robotech they have to deal with the bad times in order to get the good ones. On the other hand just link anything else the loudest people on the internet is always heard.
I think the biggest issue with the kickstarter culture is that people think it’s a pre-order system, and sadly it’s slowly became that. No offense to any of the companies that have used it to gauge if people would want a game,movie,whatever; but as long as that’s the mindset people it won’t change.
Thanks guys for the great conversation about painting – would it be presumptuous of me to think this topic was covered due to my forum thread? Either way, thanks for putting the time in to put together your top tips and suggestions, I’ve found them to be really helpful as someone just getting back into the hobby after a long stint away. I’ve decided to get some GW paints so I can paint up both the human and orc teams that come with blood bowl, which I recently picked up off eBay. Hopefully this will be a good run of models to help me get some experience and improve my confidence with painting before moving on to guild ball and infinity.
Infinity models still make me cower under my table.
The most important thing for me, which I don;t think I touched on in the show is to actively seek feedback. Your friends are a good place to start, HOWEVER, you need honest feedback. None of this “yeah its nice” or “that’s awesome” People like me and Romain bounce off each other a lot with our feedback. Our chats usually go something like “Your skin has seriously improved, next time see about adding more work to your cloth or hair” and so on.
Honest feedback has pushed me far more than anything else. And having a group of painters compliment your work and suggest areas you can look into next is something I really cherish these days,
Water towers! you gotta do water towers!
great show watching TV when painting is a good thing I think as if you are painting for a long time it gives your eyes a rest plus paint layers time to dry.
Happy Sunday,
The goal of kickstarter may be to get the product to market, the goal of the company should be to keep the customer happy. If a hard call has to be done then there should be some form of “gift” to backers as a sorry. IMO that would make the most sense, people forget what they were mad at. There was a saying in sales ” happy customers will tell one person, an unhappy customer will tell at least five”
Well all we can say is more of the same please a really excellent, we both look forwards to the two weekenders, Sundays was a two cappa, meaning two cups of tea were consumed through the show, a one cuppa is a not bad show and gladly I would like to say I have never hit a no cuppa hit the slide forwards icon. After consultation with the boss (Victoria) the two cuppa status has in fact been raised to an unheard or dreamt of high of three cuppa and a small coffee on the side. 🙂
I do feel for anyone who has entered into kickstarter that starts to become derailed. Now I have said numerous times and will stand by it, Why as a small industry which the gaming industry is, (I am not counting the computer driven market) could there not be some sort of code of good practice that both parties are assumed to have agreed to or even have to agree to written into the kickstarters that can protect an individuals rights and also to some extent the companies best interests. just a thought, as I do not do kickstarters not through lack of funds but I am an old fashioned person when it comes to business. I understand Kickstarters and the argument for them, but have issues with the small business practice that seems a little bit open to miss use of funds and barely any self policing that it is covered by. To start our model shops we scrimpt and saved it worked and we had a really good time doing it, merely because we owned the moneys debts etc ourselves and had no funding from third parties which we would have been beholden to.
Sorry if it is a little long winded but I got there in the end.
Victoria and Chris Goddard.( Keep up the great show content.)
Happy Sunday!!!
I have to agree with Warren in that there is a difference between painting something and learning how to paint.
Getting something painted so you can get it on the table is just that, you do as quick a job as possible with little to no reguard of the quality.
Learning how to paint means you are now going to take your time and go through all of the necessary steps to paint that miniature to the best of your ability.
Its too bad the Kick Starter release got screwed up . I treat them like playing the slots or buying a lottery ticket , if you can’t afford to lose , don’t play . Having just re watched the un boxings , yes Justin’s excitement over these new shiny toys got the better of him but , being a fan boy of the stuff , why wouldn’t he ? In fact it’s one of the reason’s I watch you guys ( almost daily ) , is that you really have a love for all the cool toys in the miniature figures / game and hobby world . I get the same way myself when being shown new kits at the LHS or by the games that guys are bringing in to play . Attitudes of course change once construction of said kit with its hundreds of tiny pieces is started or hours are spent setting up or figuring out game rules .To me an unboxing, is just what you get in the box , a further in depth kit/ game review should cover ease of assembly ( or not ! ) as well as game mechanic , rules , extras etc ,the good , the bad and the ugly ! You guys give us a good balance of each IMO . And no. IMO you do not play favourites with any company , some might get talked about more than others , but they might have new product to talk about . Hard to get excited and talk about a cad drawing that’s been on a company’s FB page for that past year with no release date in sight .And even when you have company reps in studio you guys tell them what you like about the model / game , and also you tell them about the stuff you don’t like , lack of detail , fiddley bits , complicated rules , etc. Keep up the good work .
Really enjoyed the paintng talk, for someon who is very slow at painting and can find it a chore at times it’s good to always here tips
For me, as long as the kickstarters explain the facts, like you did, and communicate why the product was put out for sale before fulfilling the backers orders, then I might not be happy but at least I can understand.
For that matter, if the company tries to find a way to compensate…don’t say anything until they are 100% sure they can deliver, then that goes a long way towards smoothing out the angst.
Lastly, when passion and emotions are involved, things can turn so quickly, they’re going to people that just are going to be upset and there’s nothing that can be done. However,
I’m sorry that BoW got splashed.
I don’t mind at all that the Robotech models are more like model kits. Gaming for me is a hobby – a time waster – of which assembling and painting my toys is part of the fun.
great show guys, really looking forward to more hobby lab have been missing it muchly 🙂
happy sunday!
great episode guys!
I need to say something about robotech! I work for a company which his quite successful in what they do, one thing they realised is that boxes and packages of a product are almost equally important than the product it self. I just say that to underline what was said regarding the robotec box, you can see the people behind robotec care a lot about their product and it comes across.
getting started with painting! I just recently came back into the hobby after a almost 6 year break. I started with the hobby over 20 years ago and slowly I faded away from it for different reasons. When I decided to comeback to it BoW was a great help and motivator but I didn’t have and still don’t have the necessary contacts to play the games I choose. I went for Flames of War (thanks to dave and warren) and I went for Infinity (mostly because I’m a huge fan of Ghost in the Shell, Apple Seed, etc. and of course the famous Infinity Weeks on BoW).
So I knew the gaming aspect of the hobby would be a very small one, so I put my emphasis on painting. Regarding preparing your models I’m with warren on this one, my FoW models don’t get the same attention when it comes to mould lines as my Infinity models. Just because they are so small and you have so many of them that it dosen’t really matter to me, but I get very annoyed when I realise I missed a mould line on one of my Infinity Models so I take extra care to make sure I don’t miss one. Also mould lines can ruin a good dry brush very quickly! First thing I did regarding paints I checked the Internet whats new and whats recommended and I went with the big army painter set, and yes you shouldn’t do it most paints I’m not really using and I ended up buying the FoW Paints for my FoW minis, so plenty of the army painter colours I haven’t even looked at but I love the metal paints.
For my motivation my workspace is very important I can’t just sit anywhere and start painting I need ‘my space’! Also I realised I need to step back from my minis from time to time. I paint very slowly and at one point I get annoyed of my own work and start thinking ‘Damn it I ruined the mini with this paint job!’ just because I keep staring at the same things hour after hour. When I step back and don’t look at the mini for a while and return to it I see it with different eyes. My tip would be step back from what you do from time to time just to avoid becoming ‘snow blind’. Also for me very important is the mini, my FoW minis by far don’t get the same attention as my infinity minis for I think obvious reasons.
If I find the time to do so I would put up a forum thread with some pictures to talk about how I got back into the hobby and painting in particular and what made the start easier and what keeps me motivated.
Now I have to go out and find me a group to play FoW and Infinity…one more reason to be excited about the Infinity Boot Camp, finally someone I can play the game with. 😀
The problem with Palladium Books is that they are basically a bunch of bast… dubious characters with a lot of polarizing history. I am not usually one given to name-calling, but I feel it is warranted in this instance. They maybe a bunch of unknowns in the miniatures market (even they did try to make RIFTS miniatures in the past), but they are infamous in the RPG market. Why?
Warning, info dump incoming (if you wanna know what this has got to do with BoW, skip to the end).
1.) Legal issues
Over the decades Kevin Siembieda sued a lot of companies and C&D-d fans for dubious reasons. All of this can easily be confirmed with a simple google search, but here are some highlights:
In 1991 he sued a small fledgling company called Wizards of the Coast for including conversion rules for his rule systems (a common practice at the time) in their very first book. AFAIK even moved development of Magic: The Gathering to a hastily created off-shoot for fear of KS getting his hands on it should he win the lawsuit.
In the early 90s he first demanded coverage of his games from White Wolf magazine (at the time when White Wolf were not yet the huge titan of the RPG industry of the mid 90s). So they asked their readers for fan submissions. Turns out KS wanted positive reviews, not content. So he threagtened to sue theem for “copyright infringement” over the fan material.
He demanded that GDW submit all Palladium material for their magazine to him for pre-approval.
Palladium sent regular Cease & Desist letters to fan websites, shutting many of them down for fear of copyright infringement. They loosened this policy in 2004, but conversion rules are still not welcome.
He sued Trion Worlds for over the name of their MMO Rift, as he felt it was too close to his RIFTS Rpg.
2.) Fan interaction
KS’ gaming systems remain largely unchanged since their inception in the 80s. Some people like this for nostalgic reasons. A lot of former fans do not. KS stolidly refused to make any changes to the point of copying and pasting large parts of material over a wide variety of sourcebooks and supposed rules iteration. This caused a lot of frustration. Fan modifications or solutions that were published online were often hit with C&Ds.
At the same time books on preorder have often been delayed, causing even more frustration. Mechanoids Invasion, for example, has been tentatively announced for a release in 1994. It’s listed still in Palladium’s webstore as coming soon.
This problems is exacerbated by the fact that they often announce more than 10 new releases a year, only to publish 3 or 4.
Fans demaned digital versions of their books (particularly OOP ones)for years. This was usually dismissed for fear of piracy. Nevermind that pirated versions already existed on most filesharing sites. They had nothing to lose, but money to gain. Naturally, PB refused to do so.
Fans demaned them to set up a Facebook page for years. This was dismissed as being to complicated and way too much work for them to do. Fans simply did not know how difficult setting up a Facebook page was!!! /sarcasm
Eventually a fan, wasted 30 minutes of his time and set up a Facebook page for them and handed it to them. As a thank you he received a ban on their forums (later rescinded).
None of these things are illegal, but they help to explain for how the second-best selling RPG company of the 90s, basically turned into a has-been selling mostly reprints of old books.
3.) The Crisis of Treachery:
I’ll refer you to Wikipedia for the longer version: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palladium_Books
The cliff notes version: Employee embezzled funds. Company almost went under. KS urged fans to buy stuff and buy art prints to help the company survive. Huge discrepancy between the amount of money reported stolen by KS and the damages the employee had to pay. Also, there was some confusion about stolen action figures from KS private collection and how they related to the whole thing.
In any case, the fans helped them survive, so good on them.
They promised fans that a lisst of all the people that bought art prints to help the company survive would be published in the “Heroes of the Megaverse” supplement. Said book is a self-congratulary piece of tripe were the PB crew stated themselves as NPC heroes in RIFTS. The list is also in there. Unfortunately they couldn’t be arsed to keep close records of all the donations and a significant number of people were forgotten and not in the book.
4.) Former employees
At least two former employees (Google search: Bill Coffin, rpg.net, Palladium should yield results) have broken their silence about KS’s business practices and his tendency to micromanage things to death while shunning changes and new technology, rewriting books, blaming other people for the company’s problems.
5.) The Kickstarter
When the Robotech Kickstarter rolled around a lot of people were skeptical about Palladium. They were assured that the Kickstarter would be done by Ninja Division. Palladium was simply involved as holder of the Robotech license and would remain in the background. Then the Kickstarter exploded and brought in close to 1.5 million dollars. Suddenly Ninja Division vanished and Palladium took over.
I am sure other people have talked about the Kickstarter ad nauseum (PB blaming Ninja Division, the Chinese, everyone else for its failings; PB refusing to address fan comments about the number of model parts or the seamlines that would appear; PB stopping to communicate for literally months on Kickstarter while pretending everything was shiny in their newsletter; PB trying to sell games at GenCon before sending them to backers and failing spectacularly; PB sending stuff to distributors before sending it out to backers in the EU, Australia and the ROW, resulting in Australian retailers selling the game literally months before the Aussie backers recieved their stuff, etc).
All of this can be easily verified with Google searches and Wikipedia. For information about the legal issues I would also refer you to Shannon Applecline’s excellent “Designers & Dragons: The ’80s” (pages 160ff.).
So what does this have to do with BoW then?
1.) It is not just Kickstarter Angst. It’s Palladium Books Angst.
2.) After all these shenanigans over literally decades people have stopped giving them the benefit of the doubt. So, if one of their guys sits there and spouts apparent falsehoods about their miniatures, people will freak out. I am afraid, you guys simply got caught in the crossfire. Entirely not your fault, but there it is.
Also, I’d like to refer you to their newest Kickstarter update (the first in close to three months), were they suddenly propose scale changes, throw Ninja Division and the Chinese under the bus yet again and ask you what you think of that.
PS: About the “didn’t have the flavour of Robotech bit”. This may well be. The problem is that the same thing has been claimed about tons of prior PB products. Usually it went like this: Book is announced. Book goes to preorder. Freelancer hands in manuscript. KS is not happy and announces that it does not have the required Rifts/Palladium Fantasy/What have you flavour and starts doing rewrites. => The book gets delayed for years. Do a Google Search on “Dead Reign” for an example of this.
So it may be true, but coming from Palladium, people tend not to give them the benefit of the doubt anymore.
About the instructions:
They are wrong! That is the problem. The pieces in the kit do not line up with the pieces on the instructions leaflet. Palladium has since then released the correct instructions for free:
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse.php?keywords=robotech&x=0&y=0&author=&artist=&pfrom=&pto=
About the number of parts. Initially Paulson Games came up with the concept for a Robotech game, made some prototypes, got 2500 followers on Facebook and approached PB with it. PB refused to work with him and went to Ninja Division instead.
How is this relevant? Paulson’s (much better looking miniatures) consisted of 6-9 parts instead of 20+.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/651554.page#7886459
Happy Sunday, despite it is almost over 🙂
Thanks a lot guys for this video, having a deeper look on the grey areas of a kickstarter helps a lot.
You made me laugh a lot, and I’ve found myself waving you at the end of the video 😀
Time to go to bed ;D
RE talking about the kickstarter – you did really well at tackling a difficult and very emotive subject. I know through work, when you stick your head above the parapet to try and settle things down, sometimes you get it shot off. (And no 3+ cover save).
I do think the lesson to anyone running a kickstarter is just “make sure you think hard about these decisions, and do the best comms you can around them”. I think a huge reason there is so much passion for kickstarters is that fans want to be involved with companies. I think many of us have been trapped in what only can be described as “difficult relationship” with a well known wargame supplier, where our custom has felt like it’s counted for less and less over years. I guess with a kickstarter there is always a hope to be passionate about a new product, with a company that “gets us”.
The activities of companies like those behind Robotech can so easily seem like “we already have your money, so …” (re: in the shops before with the backers). But I get from your video why it sometimes needs to happen.
So let me get this straight . . . @warzan hates planes with legs, but loves **sharks** with legs (i.e., shark-a-roceros from yesterday’s Weekender). 😀 😀 😀
Ouch – good point!
Yes, but there is one important difference that tilts the scale in shark-a-roceros’ favor, you can put Justin’s head in a shark-a-roceros’ mouth!
I stand humbly corrected. 😐
To be fair, I watched the Macross Saga and I loved it (I still do), but even as a kid watching the cartoon I struggled to understand exactly what purpose the half-plane/half-robot thing was serving, especially considering that the Robots themselves seem to be able to fly.
The way I always saw it… Jet mode was for speed and long distance air support. Mech mode was for in close and personal ground support. Half mode was for speed and maneuverability while still being able to grab and hold stuff.
People are treating Kickstarter like a pre-order system with the likes of the Reaper ones throwing product at you for next to nothing when it’s not.
I finally got off my arse and joined backstage just to watch the kerfuffle coverage.
I’m not a RRPGT KS backer. I bought a butt load of the stuff retail though (seems I got my multiple starter boxes before many of the KS backers btw). I don’t feel I was ripped off or have any hate for the KS or PB. I built a few of the destroids and I like them. Tried to build some of the veritechs (transformers) but kept having the fiddly bits break or bend when I tried to clip them. I think what did it for me was looking at the MASSIVE mountain of tan RDF sprues and just not having the heart to get stuck in and build them all. I think that might be part of some of the KS backers angst over the final sprues. If it was just a few robots to build you suck it up and assemble the suckers. If your looking at hundreds and its going to take you 20-30 min each (I think you picked one of the easier ones Warren. I had problems with the ones I did where parts got mangled when I tried to clip them and where other parts just didn’t fit properly) it can be really daunting.
I don’t blame Justin for his excitement. I felt exactly the same when I first heard that they are hard plastic Robotech minis coming out. I DO blame him for putting the flight stand wedged in between the guardian’s legs like some kind of creepy crotch attachment. What is wrong with you!
Anyhoo I look forward to many hours of catching up on backstage content rather than being productive.
Cool section on painting. Telling though that the three of you disagreed about most things. Painting is really personal, and I think everybody will have very different ideas about the “correct” approach.
I’m a terrible painter, partly because I’ve never had the motivation to try to improve beyond the most basic techniques. That’s partly because I’m colour blind. Mixing paints, blending, layering, all totally beyond me as far as I can tell. When I look at tutorials, I usually can’t tell the difference between a lot of the stages anyway, so I stick to base coat, wash, dry brush. Even then, I need a lot of help picking colours from somebody with trichromatic vision.
I have also always stayed away from historicals, because I thought it’d be impossible to get accurate paint schemes, but having recently got into DUST, and tried to figure out how to paint stuff, I think it should be doable if I stick to specific tutorials posted online, and the specific paint ranges put together by some manufacturers for a particular faction and period.
Are there any resources out there other colour blind painters have found useful? There must be plenty of us out there?
On the hobby lab suggestions, how about some WW2 historical terrain that doesnt include normandy? Some of us like to play it so that our Soviets arent invading France ;-). In general i’m glad you guys are taking a break from the boot camps. While they look fun, they are a lot of effort focused on only a small portion of your audience (those that can attend the event). The rest of us basically get vlogs or livecasts of other people enjoying gaming. The boot camps have somewhat dominated beasts of war for the last several months.
Also, give John a chance. He was invited on to talk about some suggestions for starting/restarting painting, and numerous times he looks bored out of his mind because he cant get a word in!
I disagree on the mold lines as i belive that is more of a “getting back into modeling” rather than painting. Yes mould lines affect painting, but so do many other things…Like pinning. Its important to pin a model, or else you’ll paint it only to have it break apart and ruin you paint job. Similarly gluing can be important, as using too much or the wrong kind of glue can affect the finish, and thus the paint job of the model. All important, but not sure if they belong in a painting intro recommendation.
Exactly, you nailed the point. If bad preparation ruins your effort in painting a model, you’ll get frustrated in the end and won’t try again. So for me it is part of getting started in painting.
I attended a great painters class with Roman Lappat from MassiveVoodoo, preparing your mini correctly is part of his workshop. It is useful and most of all makes painting it lots more satisfying and fun.
A really large part of me is screaming to just keep my mouth shut (or my fingers still) on this one, but I just can’t help it. A lot of people decry certain Kickstarter projects because they believe that Kickstarter is for the little guy, and that all these established companies are using it as nothing more than a pre-order system.
Quite frankly, and this is a cynical viewpoint, I don’t think this is true. Kickstarter is a business. They may have a vision/marketing statement that describes what their purpose is, but their real purpose is to make money. The company I work for has some grand vision about what we do, but the truth is, we are in business to make money, and as soon as we aren’t successful using our vision, we’re going to change the vision.
Secondly, I actually consider Kickstarter to be very successful for this reason: they may have started off in one direction with a particular vision, but they built a system, a framework if you will, that has enabled their users, both creators and backers, to use the platform in many ways that are different than the original purpose. That’s extremely hard to do.
Finally, I don’t think these kerfluffles are limited to just a few projects. I’ve backed quite a few projects and it seems that, more often than not, these kinds of issues pop up.
Cheers
You’re absolutely right there. It’s impossible to keep everybody happy unfortunately and there will always be someone whose expectations haven’t been met and will be angry and vocal (regardless of whether those expectations were justified and realistic or not).
As always, loved the show gang, thanks. One thing I’ve noticed in my time here is that there has not been any coverage on solo gaming. My gaming is about 80% solo due to lack of an opponent. I do play Infinity with my daughter and Wings of Glory with my wife and daughter but my 2 main interests are 10mm Napoleonics and 15mm and 28mm WW2 and they have no interest in that. I live in a pretty rural area and traveling has become very difficult for me. I know I’m not the only one that games solo a lot. What do you think? Once again, thanks gang, always a pleasure to have you in my home.
Great show! Thanks for diving into the subject of painting. Even if I repeat myself, painting miniatures is much more inspiring and motivation, if you get some friends together and paint with them. We usually do this once a month for a couple of years now and I’m far more productive than I used to be. Documenting your projects could also be part of the motivation issue. Show your wip in a forum (for example here at Beasts of War) – this will encourage you to stick to a project and get things done, plus you get nice or interesting feedback from other people.
Painting contests are a whole subject of it’s own. There are so many competitions beyond Golden Demon, with more different categories. For example diorama, where miniature painting is only the top of the mountain. Just want to mention the Scale Model Challenge in Veldhoven/Netherlands (http://www.scalemodelchallenge.com) …they’ve special categories for different scales of tanks 😉 Amazing to see such enormous variety in our hobby.
All this reinforces why I would never ever do a kickstarter for my wargame. Far too much stress, I couldn’t deal with it to be blunt. I’ll fund it out of my own cash even if it takes a lot longer as at least I can keep the little sanity I have left 😉
I think we need a tutorial on how to get kids to bed by 7PM.
@warzan
I think that there needs to be a topic on how plastic molds are created. I think we all understand that a lot has to do with the type of plastic chosen (soft versus hard) and the ability of the manufacturer to breakdown the 3D model as they are the ones who slice the model for the presses.
The one thing I find odd are complaints about the miniatures you are only paying $1-$2 for through the Kickstarter because they don’t look like $10-$15 miniatures i.e. Reaper and Palladium.
On the topic of painting: as a beginner in painting I would love to have something to round out your terrific themed weeks aimed at the beginner…not only “general” stuff. And that should include terrain! For example with your really nice WWX themed week…that cost me a lot of money btw…it would be really helping to have a painting guide for beginners…like a couple of standard troops of that game…which will be the bulk of the models anyway…in a simple color scheme with simple basic techniques…would bee sooo helpfull.
And as icing on top…a hobbylab with simple terrain pieces that fit the theme…both selfmade and bought…and tipps what to buy for what purpose…and some painting/wethering tipps for those.
That would make the themed weeks even more awesome…and the live of those that are beginners and got hooked…the whole point of those week I suppose…sooo much more easy 🙂
In addition to Romans videos I highly recommend these two must have books for beginner and intermediate painters:
Figopedia vol1 <– fantactic book written by someone who is used to teaching people the theory of painting (colour theory, lighting, shading). Plenty of examples to make you truly understand – not just mimic.
&
Angel Giraldez Masterclass vol1 <– plenty of fantastic examples of how to work with an airbrush. Some of the examples don't explain the colour tinting choices (i.e adding a drop of a different colour to slightly change the base), which is where the Figopedia book comes in.
To tell you the truth getting these two book is far better value for money than most paid for painting tutorial DVDs, although I haven't looked at the Painting Buddha vids. Plus BOW has lots of content from Roman.
Also, wet palettes, an absolute must have! Saves so much paint and is so easy to manage mixed paints. If you make one with a closed lid your paints can easily last for over a week!
Ok, you persuaded me to take the plunge and order Figopedia. The confirmation e-mail had this to say:
“Jérémie dispatches orders at least once every two weeks (you understand, he would much rather be painting than queuing in the post office everyday).”
I guess there’s another tip in there somewhere.
Wow, you guys miss me so much, that you named a planet after me?! I’m honored! 😉
@deltagamegirl22 – It’s from FOREEEEEEVER ago, but there was also a Pacific atoll named for you, along with Gianna, Warren, Lloyd, Sam, Romain, Ben, and the rest of the team. As part of our “Wargaming in the Pacific” article series, we created a fictional island chain where we could base our examples, and we had to get the names from somewhere!
Great show guys, and well done for calming down some of the kerfuffle surrounding the Robotech RPG Tactics. One thing I think we can all agree on is that the internet brings out the worst in some people and can sometimes serve as a demonstration of the worst aspects of humanity. There have always been people with extreme views (like wanting to see businnesses go under because of bad or frustrating experiences with them), the internet has just given them a voice that carries beyond their immediate circle of friends.
But I found your question of why do you back kickstarters to be incredibly interesting and I’ve taken some time to think about it before posting here. I think, for some kickstarters I am quite shallow and I back them because I see an opportunity to get a lot of stuff fairly cheaply often because I think that the miniatures will be useful for other games rather than wanting the specific game itself (for example I back Accross the Dead Earth and Human Interface Nakamura Tower because I wanted the miniatures). When I back a project for these reasons I don’t go mad with the pledge, I back only for the things I need and I never back to a level that I can’t afford to write off if the project goes belly up.
However there have been some projects that I have backed because I genuinely want to see the project become a reality and a success. For example I jointly backed Dungeon Saga with my brother and we pledged a fairly significant amount. We pledged jointly to get the game and all the expansions and a few other bits rather than making two separate pledges and getting a copy each of the game. I subsequently made a separate pledge because I wanted some of the Resin adventurers and collectors models. I looked at the game, looked at Mantic’s track record of Kickstaters and the success of them (Deadzone, Dreadball, Mars Attacks all of which were massively funded and have gone on to receive very positive reviews) and also listening to Ronnie’s plans to make Dungeon Saga a hobby in itself and I decided I liked what I was hearing and I made the pledge. Likewise with Conan by Monolith. I was undecided about the game – I liked the visuals (miniatures and artwork) but wasn’t sure about the game until I saw the Weekender with Jamie. That really helped make my decision so I backed – again a fairly large pledge but I made that decision because again, I liked the sound of Monolith’s plans for the game and decided I wanted this game to be a reality.
So I back kickstarters for different reasons and the reason for my pledge usually governs the amount I am prepared to pledge. However, at the back of my mind when I back any project is that Kickstarter is for all intents and purposes a gamble. In some ways it’s a bit like investing in the stock market – there is no guarantee that you will get any return on your investment and I think anyone backing a project needs to understand that. It’s not a pre-order, it’s Dragons Den; the thing you are backing doesn’t exist and you have to gauge the likelihood of the project succeeding after funding and delivering what they promised just like stock market investors have to decide whether they think stock will go up or down. I think there are some things you can check when backing a kickstarter to help you make a decision about the risk involved. These are the things I consider:
1) Are they an established company or a new startup? An established company is more likely to have a supply/distribution chain set up – I include in this relationships with manufacturers as well as distributors. This iss important because it means they know what they need to supply to manufacturers in terms of specs, they have a rough idea of how much these things cost in advance which means that will probably manage their funds a little better because there will be less re-work etc. This isn’t always true – mistakes can still happen, these people are still human after all.
2) Have they used kickstarter before? Have a look at some of their past projects, how did they fare? It’s not so important if they ran one that didn’t fund, you really need to look at how they have performed once they have your money. Companies like Mantic have a proven track record on Kickstarter both in terms of the success of the products and the deliver of pledges making them a fairly safe bet. This isn’t to say that a company that has never done a Kickstarter before won’t deliver, it’s just a risk vs reward. A company’s first kickstarter leaves a question mark next to how well they will perform so bear that in mind when pledging.
3) How much are they asking for? This is quite closely related to whether they have run kickstarters before. For example, if Mantic returned to Kickstarter with a request for $100,000, a very ambitious amount, you could look at their history and say, well they’ve run several kickstarters now and all of them have much higher than that and they’ve delivered each time so whatever it is that they’re trying to do, they probably have a very strong business plan in place to achieve it. If Honest John’s Gaming Co is running their first kickstarter and asking for a similar amount you might ask whether or not they can be trusted to handle a project of that size with no experience – is your pledge safe with them? It’s not necessarily doomed to fail but there’s less of a gaurantee and this should have an effect on your decision to back and the amount you pledge.
Some other pieces of advice. Expect delays and always pledge on a credit card.
With all the best intentions in the world, delays will happen due to unforseen events and circumstances. This isn’t limited to kickstarter but it is more obvious on Kickstarter because as a backer you are involved right from the beginning, with retail products, you only see it when it arrives on the shelf aside from the occasional magazine or news article about it.
And if something does go wrong, there is a chance that you can reclaim the pledge off your credit card company. I’ve never had to do this so I don’t know how likely that is but you have a much better level of protection than if you back using a debit card linked to your bank account.
I am a huge fan of kickstarter and what it has done for the gaming and wargaming hobby. Over the last two years I have backed lots of projects, some sadly haven’t achieved funding, others have delivered but perhaps not really been the success that I would have liked (come on battle systems, get your sci fi stuff on retail, I want to buy more bits for my existing set!) and none of them have delivered on time but I haven’t really been disappointed by the actual products once they’ve arrived.
I also have some thoughts on getting started in painting. I think, having watched the episode, that I can see that potentially there are several different “schools” of painting and you need to ask yourself what are you planning to paint. Painting an army is not the same as painting individual miniatures simply for the joy of painting them. So first you ask why am I learning to paint? If the answer is I want an army for a game that will look better than the average wargaming collection, then you will need to learn a different set of skills because what you are trying to do is paint a large number of miniatures in very similar colour schemes to an above average quality. You’re going to be more concerned with the look and feel of a unit of troops rather than the quality of individual models within that unit and in my experience designing a colour scheme for an army is not quite the same as designing the colour scheme for a single display miniature – although there are some common elements. For painting armies, the biggest problem I have is motivation – I can happily sit for days painting a single miniaature but give me 20 of the same thing to paint and I struggle.
Likewise, you need to ask yourself what type of miniature are you going to paint and what scale? Even if you want to paint for display or competition, painting a tank is not the same as painting a miniature and the two require very different sets of skills. If you’re painting taanks or militaria, you will need to learn weathering techniques and probably airbrushing (I know a couple of scale modellers and none of them use brushes for anything other than fine details and weathering). If you’re painting miniatures, you’re going to need to learn lots of blending techniques and brush skills.
Perhaps, if you’re going to do a series on getting started in painting it would be worth doing a number of different videos with advice for painting for different reasons. Advice for painting full units to a high standard with tricks to get good results with less effort will be just as useful as videos teaching you specific techniques for painting beautiful miniatures.
For painting tips, John’s tip of watching something you’ve watched before is definitely my favourite. I do this all the time while painting and even while I’m working. I have a library of (currently about 200) old films and TV series’ I’ve seen a load of times and run them on a rotation. It’s entertaining without becoming distracting.
More of my favourite tips would be:
watch / read / look at as many painting tutorials as you can. Even great painters can gain new techniques and ideas.
Also, don’t be afraid to experiment. Wondering what that pot of pink paint would look like on a guardsman? try it.
That’s actually a good tip. Keep a supply of “disposable” miniatures handy. These aren’t so much for learning on, as Roman says if you paint something you don’t like you won’t enjoy it and you won’t learn anything. Instead use them for testing out colour schemes like Pink Guardsmen.
I might even start calling my spare plastic miniatures “Pink Guardsmen”.
@warzan did you do a father ted reference?
yup lol 😉
As battletech was briefly mentioned. I’d love to see an unboxing a play through of the battletech game that sits on the shelf on the weekender set.
Battletech was one of the first ta,ess played many many years ago.
Reading through the comments has reminded me about something else you talked about – painting competitions. They are a great way to up your game and while you suggested asking your local store to run a painting competition, anyone in the UK who lives near a GW store should have access to a monthly painting competition. It’s free to enter and there’s no prize except pride. Some stores do themes, others do open competitions. The Manchester Store does lots of different competitions each month. They have the overall winner then they have best conversion. On top of this they do two speed painting contests (4 hours and 90 minutes) as well as a Golden Goblin award where the manager selects a specific miniature (usually a newly released clam-pack character model) and you have to paint that model. I found that by entering those competitions I really upped my game and it kind of gave a meaning and purpose to my painting (not that I need either of those things to paint). The only downside is that you are limited to GW models (I have managed to sneek in a few 3rd party bits here and there).
Great show guys (now that I’ve finally got round to watching the whole thing).
Starting painting is a good topic – my 10 and 7 year olds are both finding their way in this now. My approach is to encourage them to learn the craft first, and move on to the ‘art’ second.
Begin with preparation (no mould-lines in this house 🙂 ), brush and paint handling. Layering (not necessarily blending), highlighting and faces as a project on their own. There’s nothing worse than sitting with a picture of something painted by Jenn Healy as a reference when you are struggling to control paint application.
When you are comfy with the basics then it’s a good time to start considering atmosphere, freehand and advanced techniques etc. At that point you are ready to go down the rabbit hole …
For folk starting with the intention of painting armies I’d recommend a look at Kevin Dalimore’s Foundry painting guide. It’s a very prescribed technique, but offers some good inspiration for getting those armies on the table.
@lloyd I definitely agree with @warzan about the mould lines, it doesn’t matter how great you paint a miniature, an improperly prepped mini will look shit no matter the quality of the paintwork. I’m a lazy painter, but I’m meticulous with my prep work. Because I can always improve on the paint at a later date. You cant improve on a mould line…
one of my favorite weekenders as i had given up the hobby at 16 and just picked it back up (31 now #sadtimes).
this was a good chat to get returning hobbyists back into it.
brushes, paints etc was reall good advice got me well into the hobby!!
I have 2 weeks off now so i got plenty time to have a crack on those naked dark angel mini’s!