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Weekender XLBS: Talking Robotech & Getting Started With Painting!
June 7, 2015 by warzan
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Happy sunday. This one is really nice. I hope hobby lab returns. Cheers
Happy Sunday
Happy Sunday!
Happy Sunday folks, and for anyone wondering why Robotech RPG Tactics backers can be a bit…. salty, here is the latest post from the Kickstarter (in two parts no less!).
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/1255963
and
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/1256008?ref=backer_project_update
Note that there are no renders of the still outstanding Wave 2, and if you want images of the “exclusive” minis they want us to buy you have to go into the Palladium webstore…..
Whilst I understand the levels of complexity and multifaceted elements involved with a crowd funded project, the example described by Warren of the incompatibility between the file type which the designer will be using to the manufacturer’s, to me, is a fundamental parameter which needs confirming as early in the project as possible. This is squarely in the domain and within the remit of the project manager/s. This ideally, requires establishing well before the presentation to the public when requesting their financial support to kickstart the project.
Whereas I am fully aware of the high probability of a large and involved project going ‘off piste’ for a wide variety of reasons, the most fundamental elements really do need to be nailed down as much as possible!
I agree with Warren regarding the ‘psychology’ involved with such situations, being nonetheless complex, but, with hindsight, there often appears to be a disproportionate amount of time and effort applied to reactive finger pointing and witch hunting, post event, compared to proactivity during! These distinctions identify the ‘what’s in it for me’ individuals in society from the positively minded team orientated people, who are generally in the majority. Having worked in the motor industry for most of my 40+ years of working life, there is a common saying which identifies this: There is no I in TEAM, but there is a U in……….I’ll leave the ending up to your imagination and experience!
I will close on two other sayings: ‘ Buyers Beware’ and ‘ Once Bitten, Twice Shy’ I have always used these two as guidelines when purchasing, particularly from e-bay, and carefully scrutinise the ratings of sellers before making a commitment, note:(not always giving full credibility to one or two individuals who have posted negative feedback about a seller).
I agree completely about the file type testing!
The only circumstances where I can see this raising it’s head is if the manufacturing plant was changed for some reason. (Or the plant changed it’s systems – highly unlikely though)
But the point is that all these mistakes have always been happening, but you never heard about them we just saw a product launch.
KS has now let a few behind the curtain and the mistakes are now very public (and some times blown out of proportion)
But equally without kickstarter, this particular product would NEVER have saw the light of day IMHO
Looking at the timeline of this, it does seem like this was an issue that companies were only just starting to grasp back then.
Something we have been looking into a lot recently is how to get our product to a good stage by kickstarter and what we can plan ahead for. One thing I would like to mention is as Warren said the component parts of the machine that makes the monster are complex and vast. The factory will rarely change its machines or set ups but improving software is a different story. Both the manufacturer and the sub contractor designing the render will change reasonably quickly in the grand scheme of things. Maybe once a year there will be a software jump for improvement and to stay at the peak of industry the sub both will upgrade.
By the time we have finished kickstarter it will have been around 2 years from our first render to the final ones post kickstarter and it sounds bad but having already had models produced you may not think in the run up to kickstarter you may forget to ask the question are the new softwares compatible without any degradation of product. To make sure we will not hit these kinds of problems (I hope Murphy;s Law isn’t reading this) we have picked a company for render that regularly uses the model manufacturer we have decided upon. We are confident they have great comms and having watched todays episode I will make a pain of myself asking that very question every three months or so.
Crowd funding is key in this day and age to make the improbable or impossible become a reality not only by the skin of its teeth but if well planned to the maximum of its potential and beyond. The tabletop and RPG world has never been so rich and diverse and with more companies appearing it puts pressures on those around them to produce their best to stay competitive and remain good value for money.
“If you trust in yourself and believe in your dreams and follow your star, you’ll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren’t so lazy.”
Sir Terry Pratchett, although an author of fantasy many a reality can be found in his words.
Happy Sunday. Warren had asked why does one join a kick starter. I do kick starters cause I do like the project & for it to succeed, if I can get some cheap mini’s, bonus. I also treat kick starter like playing the stock market, it’s money I can afford to lose. Now if the project falls behind & the company has to have stores sell the project before sending me my stuff, ya my nose would be out of joint. But I would hope the company would be thoughtful enough even to send me the core set & send me my kick starter bonuses later. I know there would be two different shipping cost for the company & with the company making what ever money from store sales, the company will eat the cost of the second shipping. That way me & my mates can play the project at the same time with me not having the upper hand with the kick starter bonuses.
I personally agree with this 🙂
Backers are the best potential recruitment agents after all!
But … It comes down to cost 🙁
No quick fix I would say
Costs run the world & that is something we should all be use to. There is a quick fix & that is buying the project from a retailer. Other wise us backers of what ever kick starter we help fund, just have to wait till our baby is delivered 😉
Yeah Pacific was a great series.
The problem with the assertion that the RRPGT minis are laid out on the sprues as they are due to accuracy is that parts on the same sprue, for the very same mecha, have differing levels of detail. There is one destroid where three of the legs on the sprue have one piece of detailing and the fourth has a differing level of detail. Likewise vents have been placed over areas of surface detail.
And the reason I backed RRPGT was A) I’m a fan of Robotech and Macross, and figured some of the minis could cross-over easily into Battletech for double duty and B) everything they laid out in the frontpage seemed MORE than reasonable.
The issue regarding sending to retail first causing such a furor was the absolute insistence (at every stage) that backers would receive stock before retailers.
(Not defending them! But…) in plastics manufacturing it’s not about the amount of detail but the type of detail (undercuts etc) that determines how a piece can end up being placed on a sprue 🙂
And (again not defending them!) it’s understandable about the whole retail thing, but when time scales are slipping so badly, would it not be pragmatic for backers of the project to push for it’s presence at big events and be available for the biggest shopping points of the calander.
Again not debating the rights and wrongs, but looking at what is the mind set of someone who invested to bring something to life 🙂
I personally prefer Battletech, Robotech well i think its … well Robotech
What actually is the difference (I haven’t asked @dignity yet)
Robotech is the amalgamation of three separate anime shows (Super Dimensional Fortress Macross, Southern Cross & Genesis Climber Mospeda) by Harmony Gold to create one unified story known as Robotech, telling a conflict across three generations (The Macross Saga, The Masters and The New Generation).
Battletech (I believe) began life as a rules set to allow fans to use several of the mecha designs, from Macross in particular, on the tabletop. Due to rights issues several of the chassis that were direct ports into Battletech have become known as “The Unseen” as they were no longer permitted to use those designs in their game.
As a fan of both my intent was always to use some of the minis from RRPGT to bulk out my Battletech collection. Specifically the Tomahawk destroids for Warhammer heavy battlemechs….
Dude you hit it right on the head. I for one liked the anime show, but loved the Battletech game. Was thinking of doing the kick starter but had no money for it.
I believe it is very much an east vs. West in design philosophy.
Robotech is eastern and the designs have a larger focus on movement and mobility.
They essentially treat mechs as oversized infantry.
Battletech is more focused on having more dakka and the raw power that comes with it.
Western mechs are treated more akin to tanks.
And you would rarely see a western mech transform
battletech was a game set a little over 1000 years in the future were mechs had replaced tanks as the main weapon of war. It had similarities to 40k were humanity had reached a golden age of technology and exploration but it all falls apart and after countless years of war the ability to produce the advanced tech is lost. The system itself had hundreds of years of history and some of the best books i have read but it was all destroyed when Harmoney Gold sued FASA for using Mech designes copied from the robotech brand. Designs FASA had gotten permission to use from the creator and at the time Harmony Gold were not using but they sued any way and they won.
And bear in mind, whilst Palladium were shipping solely to US backers there were retailers all across the world offering RRPGT for sale in stock, and Palladiums were adamant they had not released it for International distribution. They seemed completely surprised that retailers could go to a US distributer for this stock rather than waiting for distributers in their respective territories to receive it.
And again (not defending them) but why would backers crucify them over something they have no control over?
Would you have them introduce GW style trading terms? That is the last thing that’s going to help a product gain traction.
Can you see why I get a feeling that they are being a bit unfairly battered, and it’s distracting from a pretty cool product, and also distracting the debate from areas where they could genuinely improve 🙂
Not at all, but they only changed there wording to specify regional distributers after stock had begun turning up. If they had said upfront that it may be a factor, most of us may have griped but could have accepted it.
Also, it wasn’t the models not being able to replicate the cover artwork that was the problem, it is that the images on the back of the box of the minis are damn-near impossible to re-create with what we received.
Had they has the foresight to see the project slip by a year they probably would have 🙂
Remember these companies publish dates for delivery that already have a bit of leeway built in.
At the time they convince themselves they can achieve this (very few deliberately set out to deceive)
Unfortunately these projects (read all projects) are almost impossible to accurately predict (I would say feature creep and do overs are a killer – because of the huge expectations both from the developers and the backers – a dangerous feedback loop!)
Again though I’m asking should backers of a project be pragmatic about these things for the good of the project.
Are they (or you) a part of the team that enabled it to come into existence, or is it just about the physical rewards on offer?
Except the project has slipped by more than a year, it’s now 19 months and counting. Forgetting that shortly after the project completed someone at PB told backers it was very likely shipping would start early in October 2013, the due date for the entire project was December 2013. Then they split it into waves, with the US getting wave 1 in November 2014, those of us in the rest of the world getting it in May 2015, and to date we’ve still seen nothing of the other half of the project that was shunted to wave 2. There are genuine fears that we have lost our wave 2 money, as we’ve now had 5 months of “big announcement coming soon” while PB has started churning out what could only be described as “we desperately need money” merchandise like mouse pads and such.
Backers don’t mind so much when a project is late if the creator is honest and communicates regularly, like with Dreamforge. Palladium Books has mismanaged the project, ignored feedback, and consistently lied to backers at every single turn about every single thing, which is why everyone is angry.
And for the record I appreciate the fact that you chaps took the time to address the issues some of us had with the unboxing and I’m genuinely interested by what you had to say regarding the assembly of the minis. I still think the starter set minis are fiddlier than they need to be, but given these were your & Justins first efforts Warren, and your first real exposure to the franchise, I’m actually really glad you didn’t find them too difficult too assemble.
As for the issue regarding the lack of rulebook force lists, I would take your point regarding just using cards saving on needing new books when you expand. However this book is pitched as the core rules for the Macross-era specifically and they funded everything from this series during the Kickstarter campaign. Most of us who backed expected PB to release further books to cover the later eras if RRPGT proved a success, but expected some form of lists in the core book. As it is the cards are exceptionally fiddly
For a hobbylab I’d like to see how to make bases for terrain pieces, I’ve been using mdf but most of it warps badly. I’ve used different approaches; hot glue, pva, superglue, BoW magimix (since it’s dryer than pva),.. All of it warps the mdf so I’ll need a new basematerial to use, thought you guys might help with that 🙂
Let me look into it 🙂
Same here but I now use plywood. Just get a small sheet from Wickes (UK), Home Depot I guess in the states, when I need new base material. 🙂
try thin coats of varnish with time to dry between to minimise the liquids going into the board at one time which makes the board warp socking in.
Hmm interesting! I’ll give that a go in the future!
Seal your MDF before you do anything with it, used to build kitchens and when working around the wet areas if you didnt seal the stuff it just swelled when it got wet.
I wouldn’t use pva to seal it as it has too much water in it and will cause warping, you really want something solvent based. I used to use sanding sealer (have a look on ebay or amazon for cellulose sanding sealer) just paint or spray it (you can get good results if you thin it enough and use a spray bottle) on let it dry and away you go.
My question around the delay etc is why they don’t bring on board a proper project management specialist using something like PRINCE 2 as this would help the companies at the front end of project with setting expectations etc.
In one comment you just managed to make every hair on the back of my neck stand upright he he 🙂
After we stopped working on public sector projects and arrived here in gaming, I thought (and hoped lol) I would never hear the words ‘PRINCE 2’ uttered at me every again lol
PRINCE 2 aside project management is a key failing in the industry and a key opening for a consultancy practice these days
Hey I work as a PM in the public sector… Prince 2 is not being used by me…lol
Transformers? Na, the Veritech fighters look NOTHING like a transformer! 😉
http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers-news/attach/4/1/4/0/8/G1-Jetfire_1370624373.jpg
Well, I didn’t want to be the guy to point out the Jetfire-Veritech connection, so have yourself a congratulatory “bomp”* for mentioning it 🙂
*makes sense if you’ve read MTMTE 😉
Cheers chuck, is that a Cygar head on Generations Kup as your avatar? I have one of those kicking about!
I have the Decepticon symbol as part of a tattoo…”little” bit of a TF fangirl!
It is indeed. Love that head, made Sgt Kup even more bad-ass 😉
And always good to meet a fellow TF fan. No tats myself but I may have a minor TF addiction i need to get looked at, given I spent a good hour yesterday Reprolabling CW Prime :p
@lloyd OWNED THIS!!!!
Bro… Blast from the past waiting on the link above 🙂
I recently sold one in bad shape for dirt cheap, had a stall with ALL sorts of TF goodness at a local collectibles fair!
Niiiice. Love tracking down TF’s at bootsales & cons. Always good odds you can find something to fill a gap in your collection or that you can flip for a profit online 🙂
Yup just what I was tinking as well. 😀
It kind of makes sense when you know that transformers started with collecting tranforming robot toys from existing toylines.
As for the in-between mode, who didn’t do that when they played with their transformers toys. 😛
I’ve still got that Jetfire toy. Along with all my Transformers toys. Till all are one!
And I got the Robotech version as well…
I was about to post a few comments but @dawfydd has already posted them all and @warzan has already answered them. Lol
So thank you for saving me from having to fight with my phone even more than I normally do. Lol
One thing I do have to mention though… @warzan. Youbsay it took you 15 minutes for the figure… How long to put it together and not have gaping joins/seamlines..? :-p
17mins?
Meh. Lol
Dammit. Why does the sticking tongue out thing never work..? Lol
Oh. And @warzan. I want to especially thank you for your time looking at this. There are many other factors than those you mentioned but It’s good to get an independent take on something you’re passionate about some times. I may not necessarily agree with some bits but I’ll try my best to not let my “dislike” for Palladium Books run away again in the future. 🙂
Really trying to just forget about this whole Robotech fiasco and move on to other things but some points need to be made. They promised details and missed obvious details on models that could have been easily implemented. Rockets on officer pod legs, lights on battle pods etc. neither of which would have added a single additional part to the model.
I don’t mind the part counts it’s the decision to make cuts in bad places when they didn’t need to which was proven when ND listened to some criticisms and eliminated a few bad placed cuts. Then they quit responding to backers at all. They showed some prototypes of a few models for wave 2 that were horrible and inaccurate and then instead of responding to our concerns about them we have been faced with virtual radio silence for months.
Then we are promised a big update for months and today we get it and instead of info on the progress of wave 2, photos of prototypes, listing of which models have been completed etc. we are told the same info that we already knew that they are shooting for dec 2015. We get 19 pages of Palladium history, excuses that basically toss ND under the bus, and a pitch to sell us more models for Robotech before wave 2 is even complete.
All we wanted from this update was concrete information on what was happening with wave 2 and we got nothing. They want us to preorder new models for this line and can’t be bothered to show us where they are at with wave 2 and how they have improved and listened to our concerns by showing us the new renders and prototypes. I still want this to succeed because I love Robotech but I feel like it’s just becoming more of a source of frustration than joy so I have stepped back and I am taking a break from it for a while.
One last thing I totally disagree with the sentiment of going with less detail and turning them into smaller piece models becoming board game pieces. I backed a wargame and not a boardgame. High piece count does not have to be an issue if it is done properly.
It’s not the delays that have annoyed people it’s the lack of communication and promises to improve and then communication just got worse. Kickstarters and delays go hand in hand but everyone where there was good communication I found the majority of backers to be accepting and forgiving of delays In the project.
Anyways I’m done talking about this and will just wait to for wave 2 and hope for the best. I understand the intense anger from some but to wish the company to go under is something I don’t understand. I want to see more Robotech not less, if they go under trust me nobody else is going to pick up the torch.
Loved the conversation on painting btw. Beside the great painting tutorials on BOW I subscribed to miniaturementor.com and have found them to be the best painting tutorials in the business. They use the most talented mini painters and the close up HD cameras they use and angles they shoot from allow you to see every brush stroke from the view of the painter. Highly recommend them for beginners and those looking to pick up a few new techniques and I am in no way affiliated with them just a fan.
Miniature Mentor are amazing… They’re not exactly in the same price range as my tutorials, but they’re probably the best you can get for the sheer variety of painters (and thus techniques) provided. And they’re ALL masters ! 🙂
Loved your skin tutorials. Was nice seeing a talented painter like yourself paint up some kingdom death miniatures.
Before I forget I love For The Win and would love to see Lloyd do the same with Dust Tactics. Any chance of that happening?
what a great idea, come on the @Lloyd – LOD – Lord of Dust
Happy Sunday!
Talking through those painting things was great, Im at the point where I wouldnt be anywhere near an expert BUT! I havent been a beginner for a while either so this has been very helpful. I need a new set of brushes too. Not buying GW again though.
Regarding the Kickstarer thing Dust fell into the same trap and theres a lot of angry people, Im one of them but Id like to think I didnt become the hater, afterall I kept a level head I didnt go instant HATE of Battlefront like they attempted to make us. But I have done a lot of Kickstarer but that one I went into for the deal, it was an advertised deal at that point.
Mars Attacks I went in for the project, same with Journey Wrath of Demons. I have mixed feeling because whilst a project should be maintained its hard to get your head around something being sold before its delivered. Because its not really fair to me.
As far as the Robotech things Im with Warren, I remember the show as a kid and it was “okay” in my eyes but the game was never an interest to me, I love anime but I dont feel robotech aged very well… For me.
Is there sound and pic sync problem for you also guys ?
I saw this, but just ‘re-wound’ my video a few seconds and it cleared up.
Happy Sunday, loving the painting talk. I have been teaching my nephew to paint and the hardest thing for him is not painting straight from the pot.
My first major breakthrough in painting was learning to thin my paints.
Almost forgot loved John’s painting on the Bombshell miniature.
As a reasonably experienced modeller, the number of parts on those Robotech models would put me off. Not that I mind spending 15-20 minutes on a model, but spending 15-20 minutes on a lot of models is time consuming and frustrating. This isn’t beginner friendly especially when you compare it to starter sets from other companies. Also it would take me at least another 20 to 30 minutes to get the model Warren built up to a point I would be willing to undercoat. I can understand the frustrations of the community on this point.
I agree totally. It’s the one area that I think Justin and Warren were perhaps responding defensivley rather then impartially. Those sprues are too complex for a 28mm model. The example of Lehman Russ tank having equal complexity misses the point (it’s a big tank FFS).
It’s a valid complaint and if it builds up a community something the owners can work on in the future.
Robotech is not my bag so I’ve not got any desire to defend this product, but what I saw left me no desire to get involved either.
My point about the old leman russ kits was more about it being an essential part of a beginner army for an IG player.
On the model Justin built for example there were a ton of optional bits left on the sprue.
The model I built had the components for two builds.
If an expert says it is possible with the same detail (as possibly required by the licencesee) that is spot on however – I’m not that expert – are you?
Seriously cant believe the amount of bitching about getting a tonne of bits for your bits box that you can use all over the shop, the “we were promised something” winging falls flat on me. The chances are that you invested a tiny amount of money (in the scheme of things) which wouldn’t even be worth going to small claims/judge judy over, get over it the hype rarely lives up to what is delivered, businesses only have an obligation to make money, not pander to myopic fanboys who fail to see that there is more complexity to delivering product than a kick starter page and some update posts. Simple solution to “its too difficult to build”, proxy some transformers in place and ebay the sprues that are too much for u 😉 never mind the fact that i personally would hate simple models, always felt cheated when i got a kit which was simple even as a beginner wanted the complexity, but im one of those sorts that likes the challenge of complexity and bad instructions in building something cool as much, if not more than the gaming, but meh horses for courses….
just blame all the issues with robotech on harmony gold even if it is not their fault. I have no love lost on that company they are responsible for the death of my favorite table top game. They killed Battletech and deserve as much hate mail as possible
Isn’t Battletech still going strong? I have the 25th anniversary starter and Catalyst put out new books fairlly regularly
Loved the talk of painting – we looked at something similar in the range of “what do you need to get started” for your painting station …
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtTbPkXjEgE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcxRde78Fig
I always recommend (because of the knives) plasters. Lots of plasters. Me and my son have a disagreement though on painting models – I prefer doing as much as you can on the sprue first then assembling – often once assembled you just can’t reach some bits!