Cult Of Games XLBS: What Should You Pay For 3D Sculpts?
May 15, 2022 by avernos
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It’s the XLBS Show……………Happy Sunday Fellow CoGs!
I would love to make it to a Boot-camp…….not sure if I can get to Ireland from Kansas?
I think most STLs that I’ve bought have been priced well. If I do see an STL that I think is over priced I simply don’t buy it.
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on a personal note, I just received my NEW Moonstone minis today! Five boxes that I had not picked up yet and the EVIL BUNNY!!! Or is he just Misunderstood? If only I could finish the table terrain for my Moonstone minis!
I am very happy to hear that you are considering Bootcamps once again; attended one years ago and it brings back fond memories. But, as I live on the other side of the Atlantic and the current high costs of an airplane ticket, the game itself would be the deciding factor. Understand, I would very much enjoy the fellowship, but this represents maybe the future of many more opportunities? Call me very interested but on the fence.
As to SDLs. Let the developer decide as in all commerce. If the files don’t sell as they are too expensive the market will speak and adjustment will either have to be made or dust will collect on the unsold.
Happy Sunday,
Let all watch the Greatest movie ever made and pray to Jesus.
May i Suggest that you do a summer boot camp for the Greatest Movie ever made? oh wait, you want to limit it to 14 and if you did the Greatest movie ever made many more would want to come.
I would love to make it to the boot camp, but to be honest I am not sure if you are ready for all my jelly.
I have to say for a boot camp it will very much depend on the game for me, but the principle of boot camps is a great idea and I hope it is a roaring success.
Of course you would want a Barons War Boot Camp, lol
I cast another vote for Baron’s War. Don’t have it but the game seems interesting.
end of the shoelace is called an AGLET
https://youtu.be/VwizJNvl62U
I’m up for a boot camp
Boot camp at end of July would be great.
As it’s my birthday and could therefore be my birthday present to me ?
Good to see Shay in the weekender.
Happy Sunday!
I’ve always wanted to do a bootcamp; depending on dates/content and the missus…
On subject of prints as that is now my income source I feel prices for stls are driven by expectation and the market. Most are priced just below an individual physical mini as most people will only print it out once.
I hold a number of commercial licences to sell physical prints and as you say I am positive there are more sellers than the number of licence holders. DRM is not a possibility as it would have to be hardwired into the printers and historically it has never worked to halt piracy, the main answer to piracy so far is ease of access. Music piracy disappeared when Spotify etc arrived and video piracy went with Netflix and Amazon.
Just because it won’t work that does not mean they won’t stop trying.
It’s why Steam still isn’t DRM free (and it even hosts games that feature DRM on top of the DRM that is Steam … ), despite GoG proving that DRM-free sales model can work.
Netflix is filled with more DRM than you can shake a stick at.
The only reason it ‘works’ is because they made it work and had enough content that people were willing to forgive being locked in.
Same with Disney+ and Spotify …
None of them are DRM free.
What did work is that they set a price low enough that people were willing to accept that they would never own the content available.
I’d argue that the moment GW joins the 3D printing evolution is when they can enforce DRM as a ‘feature’ in 3D printers.
GW would have their own printer locked to them with resin supplied by them that u rented monthly and paid per print.
Probably starting with printers in store to print their out of production back catalog lol ?
Morning all… oh, I give up… I’m last again… ?
You need to do a series of Boot Camps if only to promote and unify the Independents and to compete with the juggernaut that is GW… (even if in association or under the overall banner of Wayland Games) ?
Love the idea of bootcamps returning, summer may be a bit early for myself and my partner but would definitely be up for later in the year.
hell-o Bootcamp yes please – I have holiday last week of July first week of august, if it fits in I will attend. Is it possible to get my 10 years old with me? fly from Uk not issue
Well of course I am interested in the boot camp ? although July and August will be depending the weekend as I have lots potentially going on in July and August ?
It would be good to be able to attend a Boot Camp again and have a proper catch-up with the OnTableTop team.
As others have said, yes to the idea of boot camps again but based on the game system.
On the subject of 3D model pricing, I feel the prices should be managed by the creator as they know (or should do) what they need to make a living wage, or not if it’s purely just a hobby and they just want to cover their costs. Once the models are out there, the market will eventually firm up the price structure for them. Some will thrive, others will sadly fail. Such is the wont in all aspects of any customer/sales based industry.
I have models out on Thingiverse, Cults and now Printables all of which I have made free to download but state that I’d like recognition rather than recompense. My way of giving back in some small form to the gaming world that I’ve had so much enjoyment out of for so many decades. Luckily, I’m in a position that I don’t need to make money from these things and I see nothing wrong with folks setting up Etsy stores to sell 3D printed stuff… so long as it’s all legal and above board. For instance, my models are free to download but are not licensed for resale (physically or digitally) so they should NOT be seen there. Likewise, I have many commercial licenses for other peoples STLs that I’ve picked up from Kickstarters over the years and nowadays most artists offering licenses ask you to provide details of your trading name, country, websites or selling platforms so that they can create a list to (a) weed out the illegal sellers, and (b) point folks in the direction of a shipping friendly vendor for a model they want printed. It’s a two-way street – the artists need to take steps to protect their work and the buyers need to make sure they’re buying from a reputable source/printer. Any sensible reseller using a commercial license should clearly state who the original artist is and provide the relevant bonafides as to their license.
It is possible to DRM STL files but that only shows in the code, it won’t appear on the finished model.
Great show.
Boot Camp. – Times are hard, but I love the Beasts of War team, community and an excuse for a social booze up. I felt enriched and really happy for the longest time after each event. I still feast on the memories of the two boot camps I made it to and they buoy me up when things get me down. (Walking Dead and the Army Painter Rune Wars) The accommodation, the price of the weekend’s hobby, the gaming goodness picked up and the grub were all value for money in my opinion. I have no idea what air travel prices are doing, with fuel prices fighting with lack of overall travel business both battling it out to come to a value. I have no problem risking travel with a plane packed with potential Covid carriers. (Vaccinated with one booster, observe people’s space and wear masks when I’m told, I feel as protected as I’ll ever be.) Walking Dead is still one of my favourite games to paint for and play, but Rune Wars got built painted and sold on. With that in mind, even with everything I said about the value and experience being great, the game would still be key. I have no place in my heart for Dystopian Wars. I am already pretty invested in my favourite games though, so I am not sure which game would hook me into travelling over. I am working during the UK Games Expo Friday and Saturday, but might try and make it to the Sunday for a chance to see the team and check out the show, but it’s a lot of fuel and would have to come back same day. I pine for interaction and community, but cost and relevence of the hobby on offer to me and my preferences are not factors I am likely to ignore.
STL pricing – I enjoy looking at kitbashes and picking out bits that I recognise from certain companies and thinking whether I can take ideas from that. I keep seeing cool models that are only available from Patreon, only available as STL and a market flooded with miniatures that I can’t ID and don’t feel I will ever probably get an opportunity to own. I guess its a poor attitude to condemn more variety, not to embrace technology or not to hunt for STL printers on Etsy and the like to maybe find some models I like… but I can judge value and feel more comfortable spending money in the familiar selling conventions of companies that I started hobbying with. Though I appreciate that sculptors don’t probably earn enough in comparison to their skill, time and effort, but I can’t warrant spending much more than I already do when I’m the only bread winner in the household. It feels at times that every time I spend money on my games I am depriving my family of a takeaway dinner or that the money would have been better spent on the household in other family centric ways. Storage of my hobby has gotten a bit out of control. With all that in mind, joining a Patreon subscription and buying a bulky 3D printer are not part of my hobby plans for the foreseeable future. Do I appreciate that the potential to build the file forever to get my money’s worth adds huge value to those files? Yes. Do I feel that fact should be reflected in the price we pay? Yes, but how much will people pay when their plan was to only print and paint one of those models? (Would there be a rise in unlicensed printing and selling to try and balance that cost?) Do I appreciate that sculptors need a fair wage to keep doing what they’re doing and that their cost of living is increasing like everyone else? Yes. Would heightened pricing for STL files be another barrier to me considering getting a 3D printer? Yes, probably even with my other answers above. Is that hypocritical or a contradiction? Perhaps, but our budgets and opinions are what they are.
A man spent way too long selling us on the amazing quality and security offered by his patio door system that we asked for a quote on. The price was three times what I could afford. I thanked him for his time and asked him to leave. He found ways to bring the price down, but by that stage trust was lost and it was still an expensive outlay. He looked exasperated and confused why his stratergy had failed. I said that I would never doubt the quality of Rolls Royce. If in an alternative universe the Rolls Royce is the only possible driving option but I could never afford what’s on offer… Then I don’t get to drive any more. Maybe invest in better footware instead? Quality that’s barely affordable is only going to reach a limited market and our industry is already a niche within a niche. Not suggesting that 3D printing is unaffordable, but I am just sharing my outlook on pricing. Companies like 4Ground going out of business when the cost of providing a brilliant product becomes too high I worry about elements of our industry.
Well said… ?
Probably not for me, but that’s more because I think that people who haven’t been to one should get a chance first.
What about a virtual bootcamp combo ?
I loved the 40k and Starwars legion bootcamps because I could do some hobby and enjoy a bit of the bootcamp experience at home.
Hi COGz happy Sunday.
The daftest thing about the later terminator films was Dc WHO showing up as one/ciberdine. Which got me thinking is he one of the missing primarchs ?!?.
Nice show guy’s I think that people should be payed for the files they produce like any other product the price will dictate the success of the files.
Happy Sunday.
Three really nice Golden buttons there.
for what it costs for a merchants license people should pay that license i know i do and i get a great deal on that basis
@avernos, for brickwork use plastic comb, just break some teeth to set proper high of your brick.
As usual late to the party, but I have been Hobbying, painted an U.S.Aridne Maverick which was the forgotten figure from the Starter box I brought pre Xmas.
Provisionally I would be up for a Bootcamp, Dystopian Wars works for me….only downside I can see is the airflight cost, July August is School Holidays time, which last I time investigated a summer visit was prohibitive which may also effect Hotel Prices and Availability. I Know Kevin’s Sister, who is an Teaching Assistant finds it a nightmare to book anything during the School Holidays unless you mortgage the house.
I have already volunteered Kevin and myself to help run games if you do a Battletech Bootcamp……which might not be as impossible as it currently would appear, specially if you can get OTT involved in the Kickstarter that Catalyst are planning for the Autumn.
Well I’d definitely be up for a boot camp. Always subject to family commitments at the time of course, but I’m not against it for travel reasons etc.
I still have the ambition to attend a bootcamp. Dystopian Wars doesn’t immediately hit me as a must-play (Wild West Exodus might!!). And August is more doable than July, but in principle, no travel worries and I’d be very interested.
Great show today. @warzan nailed it. The economics of it will work itself out. Digital allows for some big winners and many many living-scratchers. That’s business! Be a good consumer and you’re doing your bit.
I’m still in the @avernos camp of bricks & pliers surgery before 3D printing myself, but if I can buy a 3 D print for physical mini prices, and the printer is paying the licence, then I’m happy.
Happy Sunday… bloody hell already 15:00? oO How long did I sleep?
@warzan I’d love to join but it won’t be possible no matter what. (Time. money, travel etc) So I’ll be joining Online (if possible)
00:00 New face, who dis?
04:15 Do! Or do not!
06:00 uHH – best show this side of the canal!
06:45 There is this static from the Weekender again
10:00 Lets face it: Unless you use the kitchen table as hobby table and your SO forces you to clean it up after yourself every hobby table contains “The Mess”[tm]
10:30 Fire chicken for extra spicy curry?
12:35 a Gerry Can on taking pictures… great thing for an April 1st released
16:45 Some models will bite you in the ass when you can’t reference the sprue to what part goes where
20:30 Take-Away-Marco? XD
21:40 Why explain anything? Let them all just wonder!
24:30 Fable… oh the memories. @warzan you are aware that Microsoft is working on the next title? To be released (so they say) in 11/2022. https://youtu.be/oVkSZXPklQ4
29:00 I detect lots of stuff by Gerard Boom of shifting lands 😉
30:30 the four armed emperor can give you double the love and double the hugs you deserve
35:45 I need your shoes
37:53 2002? Gods I have socks that are older then that XD And why is he called “John Lyonns” on zoom? 😉
39:45 Gold pressed Latinum Button!
41:31 paying for 3D files? But they are free on the internet… some weird dude with an eyepatch, wooden leg and a tricorn told me….
49:00 Pick your Boris…. uhm… what?! XD
1:05:00 3D printing will never catch on! Also: pay the sculptors! And credit all creatives.
Hi Warren,
I have been Gagging for a boot camp for two and an half years now, and have mates who would be keen, and appropriately sociable who would love to come.
I am pretty much an historical gamer an would love to do a Bolt Action Bootcamp, but Flames of War WWII, WWIII and Nam would be Fantastic! Epic Napoleonic would be cool as well.
I would also be up for Star Wars Legion.
@brucelea @bobcockayne @christianhou52hotmail-com @joechump @buggeroff @deltagamegirl22 @tony @laughingboy @oriskany @svboel @leonardis
Hi Chaps,
I am very keen to do another Bootcamp, and have mates who would be keen, and appropriately sociable who would love to come.
I am pretty much an historical gamer an would love to do a Bolt Action Bootcamp, but Flames of War WWII, WWIII and Nam would be Fantastic!
I would also be up for Star Wars Legion.
@bobcockayne @brucelea @laughingboy @christianhou52hotmail-com @buggeroff @oriskany @deltagamegirl22 @leonardis @svboel @tony @joechump
Nam would be interesting, did in 20mm when I left the RAF back in the 80’s, funnily enough using figures from a company in Northern Ireland, who used very brittle metal, and old Airfix Tanks, till Skytrex brought out Nam vehicles in 20mm , probably still dot them.
First up, probably can’t attend bootcamps anytime soon, but as another option to consider alongside dystopian wars all-a-sea, maybe you’d considered a Deadman’s Hand bootcamp as don’t think you’ve done so many skirmish level games, mostly been platoon size or more….
I don’t do 3d printinbg, probably a view of can’t be arsed which I think is Gerry sorta view. In the hobby right now there are so many factors that how it’ll pan out I don’t know.
Cons as I see them:
Protection of Intellectual property by the littleman is he’s gonna be screwed, and as we see with rulesets, there will be a quite corner or 5 of the web for ‘free’ Stls being swopped and shared around, even like the playgrounds when we were kids swopping our tape games to copy as we were all a bit naive we were stealing someones work?
Well something like 3d printing eventually run afoul of minimising carbon footprints, as there is a growing foucs of more green IT and recycled mobiles etc?
Has the 3d printing boon also been a bit of a netflix falling on its face and over investing when misleading level of interest due to lockins and covid which will diminish back to a cult thing and not really extensive enough to be its own full fledged business area. Not too mention cost of living, new printer costs what now, or I buy me 1 blister/box of minis this week/month and still have heat and can eat and have shoes on the kids feet.
Pros
Where I think it can have a business sustainable presence:
The Patreon paywalls who at least get paid in the first instance and possibly an associated Youtube channel to help build the brand for at least some associated shop sales after patreons get first option.
Heroforge type of approach will I think be more and more the kind of way home users will interact, send them an stl to print and postback to you too, 1 stop shop for new and prepurchased.
Ooh Western Gunfights, and a nice starter set according to Gerry !
I’m sculpting a warband of space goblins at the moment. I will be doing a kickstarter as I can’t compete with the shear volume of what most patron sculpters kickout in a month. I have done traditional sculpting and to be totally honest sculpters like kev Adams and the perry’s can make a traditional sculpt much faster than a modern 3d modeler can. It’s not magic alot of people think doing it a computer is somehow cheating. I got into it because my eye sight isn’t upto sculpting tiny details anymore. 3d printing has one major advantage, its so freeing not having to think about how something is going to be cast.
A bootcamp at Beast Tower (aka the Visitor Center; skipping the side rant on naming I’ll think of something better if it must fit the brand) is a bit far for me like templar007. I’ll be sure to save my pennies though and try not to spend them on minis.
The back and forth of the market is interesting to consider. As I’ve dropped a single model equal to the majority of the cost of a 40k army I think there is some variance in scale. The difference, as Warren pointed out, is number. A single piece that I have no rights to (with regard to movie merchandising) and only will play myself, I find it is well worth paying for quality.
I like the idea of Boot Camps becoming a thing again. I may never quite make it to one myself, but the hope is there and even if I never make it I’ve always enjoyed following along over the weekends coverage.
Happy Sunday…even though i watched it on Monday….yep boot camp…why not, i missed all the sodding others due to work…
STL’s on Etsy are a rough one, you have no way of knowing if they have a license to be selling and it’s really hard to follow back to original creator. I usually use Myminifactory for mine for just that reason.
As for the Boot Camps, I would be interested in doing it, but alas I”m over in the US and I haven’t gotten enough vacation to make it over this year unfortunately. But yeah if you feel comfortable I think it would be great to see.
I’d love to attend a Boot-camp. It would depend on the game having a passing interest for me but otherwise I’d love to attend.
Barons War Bootcamp!!!
I feel like there needs to be means to identify the properly licenced printers from the $1 pledge Etsy chancers.
Maybe if the sculptors maintained public facing directories of people who have bought a commercial license (link to Etsy stores etc) then those sellers who bought them could market themselves as ‘ethical printers’ and we could all spurn the others in the same way we view recasters.
I’ve been way to busy with other things and missed that I’ve won a bottun.
Thanks, guys. I’m extremely pleased.
The project is finished, but I am contemplating if my next build (hag’s hut and/or blacksmith) will get their own log or be an extenstion to this one.
I’d be there for a bootcamp!
My tuppence about bootcamp is yes, go for it. The sooner we get back to the way things were pre-covid, the better!
I’ve been waiting to here this for over a year!!! Had to cancel one trip to a boot camp. I’d love to go
I would love to fly over for another bootcamp but this year is not $$ possible.
My 3D printing Boris is M3Studios, this is as I mainly play Fallout right now and his post post apocalyptic stuff is great. That said his buildings usually have damaged and undamaged parts so they do fine for Crisis Protocol as well, anything that can do double duty (or more!) I lean into. I stay away from Patreons and lean more to Kickstarters that have an entry level that is fair to both the creator and purchasers ($50 to $100 usually depending on what is in the base pledge).
Absolutely up for a boot camp! Been to long!
There’s more to creativity — especially no-cost distribution — than money. Many creative types are just happy to hear that someone’s enjoying their creative work. They’re not in it for the money, especially, IMO, if the amount of money isn’t very much. Plenty of gaming rulesets are free (eg. free RPG games, free miniatures rules), and many software games are free (eg. indie titles or old games). DriveThruRPG has a “Pay what you want” option, so there’s always that option if you download something.
Coming to a Bootcamp is actually on my bucket list, but I don’t know whether I would be able to arrange to attend one on such short notice as over the summer. But it’s great that you’re starting them up again