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Weekender XLBS: Burn Your Rulebooks!
February 16, 2020 by dignity
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strange… i was attracted to a nothing vid for XLBS!
Me too.Just got here too early i guess.
Well, I’ll join this que line and wait for the OTT Theater to open up.
Guess I’ll grab some snacks from the lobby while I’m waiting……..hope they have nachos with extra jalapenos!
At last………..it’s the XLBS Show!
Greetings brothers and sisters of CoG.
Sit back and enjoy the show.
and NO………..I shall not be burning my rulebooks!
I look forward to seeing the progress of the rule set @warzan and team OTT have been hammering out in this episode. Lots of interesting ideas.
*drums fingers on tabletop*
*hits F5*
*hits F5*
*hits F5*
*hits F5*
*hits F5*
*hits F5*
*hits F5*
*hits F5*
*hits F5*
*hits F5*
*hits F5*
*drums fingers on tabletop*
you guys are such teases
Happy Sunday!!
Happy Sunday
Warren, you should have a look at Tribal, those rules are near to your idea.
Happy Sunday! Yay!
Happy Sunday! At least I’ve made page 1 today!
Stat cards around the mat edge saving constant flicking through books of tables have always been preferable. Maybe Infinity will take the hint for N4 or will I have to make my own again… they’ve done them for Defiance which are already downloadable.
Interesting discussion. I like the idea of the double sided unit cards to show the difference between fresh and fatigued. I think it would give a better feeling to the combat rather than alive or dead after one turn
I don’t think theres anything wrong with having a QRS which describes the more common factors within the game
I am interested how the rules would deal with something like Sejuk Turk shoot and retire tactic
Cheers @torros
any chance you can expand on these
Sejuk Turk shoot and retire tactic
So I can understand them a bit better?
It pretty much the old Parthian tactics. Light horse bow men would ride in fire at the enemy and retire and do this continuously wearing the enemy out knowing that the crusaders could catch them and getting them to a state wear heavier troops could finish them off
I have the same Crusades book myself and I’m sure its describes it in detail during the advance of the first crusades through Anatolia
the simplest way would be to either give a free fire at the end of their first move, or to make their second move the same distance as their first so they don’t get caught retiring.
Of course a lot will depend on the motivation/fatigue tracker
The idea of double side cards for units was done in Fallen Frontiers 1st ed. It was an interesting concept that Scale 75 were using, just a shame that the rest of the rules were not up to scratch for that edition.
Have A Great Weekend!
It’s a real pity that Warren is so against apps as I can see a lot of what he wants to do – hiding complexity, remove tokens from a playing field, units changing effectiveness during the battle, etc – could be done with an app.
You also need to know how to make an app which I’m sure is pretty complicated in itself
I have a pretty profound aversion to apps in tabletop gaming. And yes I accept it’s based on principle and is completely unreasonable lol
But what I love about tabletop games is that they are purely analogue. I would find a game from 50, 100 perhaps even 2000 years ago and just play it anywhere anytime pretty much.
It’s easier for me to play a game of Senet than it is to play a game of PPHammer. 🙂
To me all the good will in the world to keep apps ‘open source’ etc does not guarantee their longevity
And I just dont appreciate them within the art form of tabletop gaming 🙂
If you’re not going to have a rulebook then you’re not going to need an app.
I can see an app as a way of organizing and printing those unit cards though.
Maybe even an interactive version of the unit card to use during battles as an alternative to printed variants.
I’m determined to help you change your mind. Gimme a few months… 😉
I would highly recommend Leaders by Rudy Games. It uses an app, but it adds new features to the game, rather than making the game board redundant (high Golem Arcana!).
To create a (good) app for a game you need to be able to do it on paper anyway.
Complexity is never a good solution to a problem.
You can change combat effectiveness during battle without an app.
Hex&counter wargames have used blocks that visualised reduced combat effectiveness for decades.
40K uses a simple table for vehicles/monsters with a new stat line for every x points of damage.
It might not have the resolution available to a spreadsheet, but that doesn’t mean it is not good enough.
Never mind that computers suck at random number generation (it’s why encryption programs often ask users to move their mouse or hit a few keys … ).
Physical dice, decks of cards and drowing counters from bags are so much more reliable as ‘random’ elements.
Back when I was a computer programmer (30+ years experience, so I understand a lot of what you are saying), I was always trying to look for elegant ways to hide some of the complexity from the user.
There are both good and bad ways of doing this.
The rules for the game will have to be written down; I presuming that Warren wants to minimise the number of pages in the rules and any accompanying army lists – putting as much as needed on to cards without making it too complex.
Otherwise Justin is right, the easiest way to hide the complexity is to have someone standing next to a player explaining things, effectively a living rulebook 😉
Now if there was an intelligent display, that could look like a strip of cards, that was set along the base of the table edge, doing the accounting for various unit states, would perhaps be more aesthetically appealing.
if you need someone to explain the rules then the rules are lacking in clarity.
The sole reason GW has such a thick rulebook is that they insist on having a ton of different names for a rule that is the same (orbital drop has at least one variant per faction). Some people like that kind of flavour, but IMHO it is a waste of space and it creates needless confusion. And then they go and give practically every unit at least one ‘special’ rule, which creates complexity where none is needed. I suspect part of that is the result of using the D6 as the standard die of choice.
I think the only reason you need a rulebook is to act as a collection of options available when creating units. The effective list of rules should be short enough to fit on a unit card.
Terrain is probably the one exception.
A bit of clarification here please..
“The effective list of rules should be short enough to fit on a unit card.”
Are you saying that the rules can be written on a single card (you do use the word “a”) or what would be the table of content for a rulebook?
I am saying that whatever rules (and stats) are needed to use a unit should fit on the unit card itself.
So if a unit can used ranged attacks, but there are specific limitations (like reloading) or advantages (like a bonus when attacking from a certain range) that info should be on the card, etc.
This is effectively what Warrens’ “no rulebook” restrictions is.
He could write his game in a traditional rulebook + army list format, but to play the game you’d be constantly looking for info on how a unit operates.
By writing only the rules and stats that apply to a unit onto its own card (one for each unit in the battle) you create a system that is easy to learn as all the required info is in front of you on that dashboard/unit card.
They’ve identified two problems :
(1) terrain : a unit card for each bit of terrain would fix this
(2) flanking : which may not need ‘rules’ as it could be part of emergent gameplay(*) or ignored completely
(*) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergent_gameplay
This is the strenght of such deceptively simple game rules. Strategy and tactics emerge because of how the game works, not because there are specific rules that reward or deny those tactics.
Happy Sunday ……………posted 12 hours ago ?? It was still Sunday morning then, my Happy Sunday would have had a damn sight more authenticity …. keep it there next week.
In case no ones answered this, @warzan show is Rise of Empires: Ottoman.
Nail Polish Lacquer Shaker Mixer from Black Magic Craft (Uk Shop)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07G84M2NR/?coliid=IQ5TAXXZPMFCM&colid=1JW6YYR0C8CUR&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it
For future reference Justin, Crack is a cocaine based product, essentially it’s cooked with a binder such as Baking Soda or some such. In any effect it’s not good for you so I recommend avoiding it. Stick to coffee and jammie dodgers these are much better for you.
Happy Sunday, glad you’re back. Great discussion for the no rule book game thoroughly enjoyed that, I believe that my kids and I could get into that one, can’t wait to see how it progresses.
If you wanted to simulate the effect of a unit previously being engaged in a turn and therefore not as well able to react to a flank attack or rear. Why not just have a Melee action that triggers after the unit has been involved in its first Melee?
Or you were talking about tracking fatigue, so after a Melee the unit goes to its degraded state and is therefore more vulnerable to attacks?
@warzan they are eyewateringly expensive, but apparently GOD hands clippers are designed to be ultra smooth in their cutting so require little pressure. Price is up there with vortex mixers though I believe.
? all we are saaaaayin ?
? is give 2ps a chance ?
Zip ties. Jigsaw. Bzzzzt. Perfectly mixed, smooth-as-silk paint 😉
if you have a jigsaw that is … otherwise it’s as expensive as a vortex mixer 😉
I can’t post a photo in the comments but since being reminded of the snippers thing, I got busy on the laser cutter this morning. A high-torque metal-geared servo, some mdf and a pair of snips all bolted together makes a brilliant Heath Robinson set of snips. I’ll try to get some photos this evening….
1hr in, wasn’t Justin right but for warmaster? It’s been awhile since I read the rules but it rings a bell?
@warzan,why not make an app to track stuff rather than tokens or a slider… ?
Great shows this weekend, and I’m watching the Sunday show on Sunday for a change!
I’m really liking your idea of the game @warzan
As an American, I can say with authority that crack is not an opiate.
Correct, crack is crystallized cocaine which is cheaper to produce and distribute. Opioids are poppy based such as the brand name Heroin.
Warren these are the playing cards you need for your game.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/653481781/deus-vult-playing-cards?ref=nav_search&result=project&term=deus%20vult
Interesting episode, though Warren and Gerry have a lot more patience than I have! Love the fact that you are trying to make something so simple you don’t need a rulebook, but given what you have so far, there is still a lot of decision making involved. The one turn combat could be a winner, but it might make for a very, very short game – play testing is going to be the proof of the pudding. Will be interesting to see what you can pull off.
I think the banner unit is the way to go.
Play it like legion. The card reflects the distance the units can be away from the banner (that can vary depending on the type of unit. example Calvary might be trained for independence so they would have a farther reach).
You can use the banner unit card to add some of these ‘additional’ rules.
-Maybe some banners can flank or others can siege and so forth.
-Banner unit could have a square base if you really want flanking, but have the banner list what negatives for what happens when this banner is flanked. But make it simple like only from the back of the base. example: -1 armor when attacked from the back.
Conquest Boot Camp? Yes Please! I’ll be there!
Could not castle cards be a flip? Beat the face card and the card flips creating a ruble stat? The walls would not just disappear, but would provide a gap which would have some attacker/defender tactical value. Just a thought.
I use cork to base with Zandri Dust
Just as Warren showed today.
They say “some minds think alike”
And now I’m very afraid.
I think that card flips may very well be the best way to do this.
– front : unit/structure at peak efficiency
– back : unit lost effectiveness / structure partially destroyed but still useful
– card removed from play : unit is dead / structure destroyed completely
Or you could go super fancy and create transparent overlays that block certain parts of a unit card.
Think of Gloom ( https://www.atlas-games.com/gloom ) and CMON’s Hate …
Hey-up. For some reason the download for the podcast says forbidden…
I have a typhoon paint mixer (https://youtu.be/_VtFvpaTxTQ). It does a phenomenal job of mixing Vallejo model color paints that have been sitting for months unused, where the paint has separated and the pigment has settled to the bottom. Its a money saver, since I bought it I have used it to bring old gummed up bottles of Vallejo paint back to new by just adding Vallejo paint thinner.
I do have the nail polish shaker and I have agitator balls, its perfect, it even saved dried up paints after adding fluid. However, as these are cheaply made in china the electric motor is quite crap so you don’t want to run them longer than 2-3 minutes at a time. The vortex is the better solution, it is basically a decision between quality. the branded one is just that branded, but the p[arts inside are the same as ina cheap nail p[olish shaker.
Thoughts on the game:
1st use the hand in the bag system, much better system
2nd remember that innovations is tactics came along slowly and usually in response to other innovations. Flanking was useful until the the square was created, dragoons would go after the edges etc. The rank of the units was designed to have a strong side, yes they could fight on the sides but lost effectiveness in doing so. It took extremely well trained units to support their own flank.
3rd @avernos does keep bringing up base style and I know the intention of the round bases. So the use of a unit banner will help with centering the units and measurements.
4th I keep thinking of Total War Medieval II and how the units react to each other. Each formation type has pluses and disadvantages when going against other unit types. Basically it comes down to a Rochambeau or rock paper scissors.
Just some thoughts.
PS wish we could get the hoodies directly from you guys so they could be shipped across the pond.
I really like the idea that each unit has it’s own stats. I have a copy of the rules that you are basing this on. I was planning on putting different numbers of tufts or stones to represent the units attack and defence stats. I would keep infantry move at 6″ and cavalry at 12″. If heavy cavalry charge light cavalry then on the turn of a non-picture card the light cavalry could evade away from their chargers before contact is made.
I really wouldn’t bother with flanks, individual units being flanked is such a wargaming trope, as you said a flanking attack is when an army is flanked, with more attacking units versus a smaller number of enemy due to attacking the end of the defender line.
In regard to unit cohesion, as I understand it each unit is made up of a few bases. As long as each base is touching another base of the same unit I cannot see a problem. When moving the unit, move a leader or banner base and then move the other bases to conform to it.
Anyway a really interesting show, I look forward to seeing what you finally come up with Warren.
Not quite what I was expecting from giving Justin a creampie.
That’s a relief!
Half dead? Or half way to a Dreadnought? 😛
chevaux de frise
When mommy and daddy fight do they still love me?
Simplicity Vs depth – If your rules are so memorable that nothing is written down, then either the game is inherently simplistic or you have created the perfect wargame.
The more depth you want in your game, the greater the need for *something* to be put into reference sheets, cards or an actual book.
I think for the purpose of a large scale demo game, any reference material should fit onto a single A4 sheet at the absolute most (if anything that would be the whole game), and preferably any special rules should fit onto a playing card reference.
Anything less than that and you are either settling on a basic game that will be carried by the spectacle of what is on the table, or you have hit gaming gold.
Good to have you back #creampie
Yay the XLBS is back and better than ever.
You seem to be working from a bottom up approach, rather than top down one, ie starting with units and how they work….
I was wondering how you were going to build in things like:
Army composition
Win conditions/Objectives
Deployment
Weather and Time of Days effects – most games I see played are during a sunny day time
Turn Sequence
One suggestion I’d make is to have a deck of action cards for each separate unit that work in conjunction with the unit’s stat card.
These action cards could:
* have more verbiage as to how an action works
* detail any check needed before the action proceeds
* any stat that is needed only for that action
* how the action could affect further actions the unit may take this turn
* any effect on the unit’s stat card
For ease of play and transparency with the opponent, the action card is played beside the unit it is intended for on the table. Once the action has been completed, the card is placed under the unit stat card.
In this way the unit’s stat card becomes more of a unit state card.
At the end of the turn, all action cards played on a unit are returned to it’s deck.
This way the designer could build a bit more character for some units, giving them special actions, perhaps with a per game limit. The number of times it’s played could be recorded on the state card.
The number of actions per turn could just be by the number of cards allowed for the unit, or each could have a cost, which is spent from a reserve the unit has on the state card.
Good to be back.
Game without rulebook? Isn’t that CalvinBall? Were are the terms defined, stat card meaning, victory conditions, order of play, units of measure. You are assuming a lot of foundation material.
Flanking matters. It matter to the Romans. It matters to modern infantry. If you want to ignore for simplicity fine. But it is an abstraction that removes fidelity.
I’m using the nail polish shaker and it works perfectly. There, SOME DUDE ON YOUTUBE SAYS SO!
I’ve spoken…..
Think I’m going to have to re watch this as fighting my new computer whilst trying to update my swl project yesterday.
@warzan to sum up without above so may get below wrong :
You don’t want rules as in book:
Use playing card, missed how this worked
Start cards possibly for each unit?
Using round bases so no unit flanks technically ?
So movement sticks for movement one for cav one for infantry, perhaps if you wanted to add unit types marked with heavy and light for each type.if you wanted to put a charge bonus colour that part of stick and say anything that comes into contact and has travelled in the black shall we say gets a charge bonus of whatever.
likewise ranges bow crossbow, heavy wpns , if you wanted to have range effects, just go for half or quarter effect as range increases , to save having tables , have one for each wpn and colour code them same for all long range wpns, red for close, blue for effective .
If I remember you used standard size bases, but do they differ for infantry and cavalry and artillery ?
Either way you did then flanking rules easy , make a arc stencil (preferably clear) that matchs you bases either way.
Put arrow on stencil which points in orientation of standard, and then mark arcs on above.
then just put a simple effect on stencil . forward to a arc to be defined, unit fights at rull effect
side half effect , and back either 1/4 effect or bugger all depending on how mean you want to be.
All you have to do is if a unit comes into contact, you put stencil over each units base and work out combat factor
the arcs will do the if its in the flank etc.
I may be way of the mark with above as only really came back into conversation when gave up on computer and went back to phone.
My idea is that you use your game aids to be your rules, and you don’t have to remember anything as your sticks and arc stencil does it all for you.
I believe Warren Is correct, walls are good & rusty balls not good.
I have been using a nail polish shaker for over a year & it works fine in combination with paint agitating balls.
You need some rules, be it a single side or a whole book. Games totally built on cards are inherently clunky when it comes to competitive play due to Justin’s (Alpha Strike Gamers) using the lack of rules to break the game. Specifically the “well it doesn’t say I can’t do it anywhere!”
Thanks for the Golden Button chaps, very proud! @warzan excellent news on the Conquest boot camp. Spring is looking good for me!
Found a solution to your flank issue. Give each unit 4 d6 to defend with. you can allocate any dice to each attacker. 1 to one unit and 3 to the other. Or 2 to one and 2 to the other. Thus representing the stress of multiple attackers. It would be a great universal rule for all units. A shield wall would add 1 or 2 d6 to the defender.