January 9, 2013 by dignity
Warren and Darrell have a look at some of the new Finecast models from Games Workshop and give us their thoughts... not that Darrell has many...
BoW Justin
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Whoah that battlefoam advert at 14:00 made me jump
Now let my show you some miss casts – BOOM
Just when I was relaxing, listening to a good ol’ ramble about Finecaste I get Blitzkrieged by Battlefoam!!!! Holy crap! I even split my Coffee all over myself!
LOL did the same thing to me
its damn hard to see were the line between sarcasm/joking around and hidden critique is ^^, especially if youre from Germany ^^
Finecast in the spotlight? Wouldn’t they melt? 😛
Wow It seems that you have won some sort of award!! Well done!!!
Yeah, seems like that. +31 is a lot of approval 🙂
Good video. Great to see your views on the GW range. I’m trying to flesh out my Dark Eldar, and the idea of converting a Lady Malys using the metal Vampire Counts’ Vampire Lord’s body was going to be a nightmare. I had her in hand yesterday, and if I ever get around to it, she’ll make an excellent conversion project – made easier with the new finecast.
Pricing….well, it’s GW, the world would have to end if we ever see a price drop across any of their ranges.
also just to point this out, since its resin, isnt more easily to do conversions with,
Certainly a lot easier than metal though 🙂
No just different, same difficulty other problems.
I feel the perception of metals difficulty is it is hard to cut, while not all miniature manufacturers make the blocky type of models GW used to make, so cutting difficulty is relevant to the miniature, the metal is indeed a bit more difficult to cut than plastic or resin, on the other hand that “difficulty” means the material itself prevents you from over cutting a part because the material presented less than expected resistance, it also cleans easier and there is less expected loss of detail than resin or plastic, one good thing in comparison to resin is you do not have to be afraid of splintering the resin while cutting it and finally all materials need resulpting when doing excessive conversions.
the short version is while each material has its unique quirks, I view them as equal in difficulty on working with them, I can’t say X is easier or more difficult than the other.
I’m very excited about this move and what it will bring in the future, not a huge fan of it at the moment but only because of the teething problems which I’m sure will be sorted out soon.
VERY informative. Well done Warren on explaining this in such a fair and well balanced way. I agree on all points.
We are going to see some great stuff coming once the teething problems have been ironed out. I have now bought 4 Finecast models and I have had very little excuses for concern or complaint.
(btw.. Wheres my article 😛 )
It’s with the editor 😉 @beerogre – i will politely nudge him over coffee in the morning 🙂
Metal shrinks when it cools, hence the loss in detail as it moves away from the mold slightly
Excellent Point!
Yup. That’s one way you can know these are new molds, too. Metal and resin will have different shrinkage rates, so they have to make new molds to accommodate that.
I think a video showing some of the properties would be of great interest. For instance:
1) Show cutting/sanding/sawing
2) Melt point (Ala Myth Busters) heat it until it melts and show us what temperature it occurs at
3) Try and reshape the melted mini
4) Show us the how it handles falls (assembled/painted/sealed miniature)
I’m really curious how well paint will stay on something that flexible. It seems that while a drop won’t do much damage to the miniature itself, it could possibly “shatter” the paint job if the material flexed enough.
I would love to see a Mythbusters take on this! “Tale of Four Finecasts” as you subject each one to a different environmental terror. Just throwing this out there: I’d love to know how Finecast reacts to cold. I live in the Great White North of Canadia, and in winter I worry the resin would become extra brittle. The opposite of what folks in Texas have been experiencing, with melting in the sun/car, etc.
I dunno about you guys, but watching a model being destroyed in the name of crude science sounds like a good video. Not that I have anything against the models… but settling the debates about Finecast by actually torture-testing minis would be very informative.
And while they’re at it, they can put some under a stereo magnifier glass or something a machine-building technician would use to close-up/measure an edge and see if the resin detail is indeed sharper, as opposed to the “rounded” in metal.
For the second point :
“It’s a good idea to Microwave this ?”
Example : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeVCYLoU9Bc
Talk to this guys , the could even try to microwave a microwave if they could fit in some other one XD
i may buy a box of plauge marines onnce they are not in a rush, in trying to make them, as stated in the video, this is a new process for them kind of, im just kind wondering why didnt the outsource all this work to Forgeworld, and that they should start selling forge world proucts through GW, so i wont have go through conversion charges on my charge, and suffer imort fees,
The difference in detail seems insignificant. Metal is reflective and the reflection obscures detail when you’re looking at unpainted models. For a good example, take a look at this review: http://www.brueckenkopf-online.com/?p=37868
The flexibility is a trade-off for me. It’s easier to reposition bent pieces but I can imagine a lot of paint flaking as thinner resin pieces flex during handling.
Thanks for the attention 🙂
Meh.
Upon seeing the full video, the “meh” is for Finecast. As a material I’m not sold on it.
I think there’s something to the “environmental friendliness” of this material. If you can chuck a failed metal back into the pot and try again, that metal is going back in a product. Throwing out tons of petrol-based(?) resins due to miscasts, especially by the world’s largest mini maker…. that adds up.
Great video and passionate, well-informed opinions. Enjoyed hearing about the casting process too, learned a lot.
Also, what about the role of casting professionals in all this? If those are the first line of quality control, this whole process must make them a bit redundant. I just hope nobody lost their job/got downsized since GW decided to shore up their margins.
Why doesn’t someone build a Finecast version and a metal version, prime them both gray, and put up side by side comparisons!?!? For the love of pete! And for construction – have you tried to build a metal Zoanthrope? Dear lord… the Finecast Zoanthrope is a dream to build in comparison.
Do the comparison! Put up the results!
google finecast comparison…1000’s of blogs have done this, one was even linked in this comment thread , just above here.
i think PP is looking at workshop and laughing. warmachine & hordes is the new king of the hill…there i said it!
I bet if anyone is interested in Finecast, it’s Privateer. They will learn from GW’s process and how its received by fans, and apply it to their own manufacturing. GW had the benefit of seeing PPress do resin and their growing pains.
too late. they did a similar switch away from metal, starting in force last year. The battleboxes, new issue jacks , some infantry(including full resculpts) and forthcoming 2p starter are all non metal. They use a plastic/resin hybrid, and in the case of the menite jacks at least, it is sharper.
Privateer press has been doing ‘finecasts’ for a while now…
Everyone has, pretty much. Only better. Those Finecast minis can only get better, and it sure is good news… But GW should have done that ten to twenty years ago. They are now at the stage where Fenryll was in 1991…
BoW Romain
only sort of. The resolution is much better on the GW stuff at the moment. (Not for long I’m sure)
With that ammo belt you could just clip it above the miss cast, then it would just look like he has fired off some rounds.
I think the finecast stuff is very well detailed. I went into my local GW store to have a look and they had some built. When i saw them i said oooh. I spent about an hour going round the shop looking at all the different models and my response was always oooh (exept when i saw a miss cast, then i said eegh) But over all they were very nice. I dont think i will be getting any fine cast models in the boxes where you cant see inside them, i will want to check it out for any problems before i buy one
I think the cast was short shot. 😛
Good call for a simple fix for that problem Badger.
yeah, i bought a telly once that didnt work, so I laid it on its back and used it as a table….is that also a good call for solving a problem i shouldnt have?
Funny you should say that I bought a table once that had one leg shorter than all the others. So I turned it on its side and used it as a plasma screen TV set!
I was not suggesting that correcting manufacturers’ faults is ideal, but sometimes it is less hassle to do a simple 5 second fix than mess about returning products.
If i was still buying, I’d buy a big batch, make sure they were all miscasts and make gw replace them all. I’d end up with a lot of free bits.
Very informative, great thumbs up. Havent actually seen any finecast myself but personally i hate metal (both painting and playing with) since it needs to be handled with alot more care. Gonna need to get my hands on some of these models soon tho so i can see it for my self.
Finecast looks interesting and the possibilities that can be achieved with the material are promising, but GW really have to sort their quality control out before I take the plunge.
Price issues aside, I think they are on to a winner here, but it’s early days and I’m sure GW will overcome the teething problems they’ve had so far.
It’s a new technology (to GW at least), plus the scale on which Finecast is manufactured, there are bound to be hiccups.
Caveat emptor, but I’m sure GW customer service can handle any issues?
I think the idea is sound, I really like resin, but the current implementation is what you would expect from a part timer casting in his shed, not the market leader wo’s charging a premium.
My Dante had issues, enough that I won’t be in any hurry to buy another finecast until they implement some working QA procedures.
Having said that, if I had the choice of a metal azhag or a properly cast resin one, I would take the resin every time.
The real issue with it is if they can get a properly cast one out there, for me the boxed ones would be a complete no go , you cannot buy this stuff blind right now.
My Mcvey resin is so much better than the finecast one you wouldnt even suggest the two were producing product for the same markets, my Kara’s last stand looks like its worth more than £13, my Dante’s jump pack looks like something that fell out of a cracker its so rough.
If GW hadnt promoted this stuff as the second coming I think they wouldnt be getting such a hard time, but this, with price rises and the trade embargo all in one week, it was a PR disaster in the first place, adding in the poor quality of the first product was just commercial suicide.
Given the amount of goodwill they gave up , this HAD to be right, and it simply isnt right now.
I agree, Finecast is nowhere near as revolutionary as GW claims it to be. Mcvey, Spartan and some of the Troll Forged stuff is as good or even better IMO.
I’m looking forward to seeign the Necron finecast releases, when they get 5th editionified.
They’ll be the first army to be released after finecast. :p
I got a Hive Tyrant in finecase, and I have to say, I’m very, very happy with the product. I couldn’t find any bubbles or defects, though. Except for the tail which was a bit… meh.
Could you be more specific than “meh”? What do you mean? Was it bubbly, rough, mis cast, was detail obscured?
So a friend had one the other day of in Hun Stanton. Surprisingly sunny and Hot so we decided to have a game.
We almost had to put in a glass to move it around.
God save our fi-ine cost! God save our massive cost! God save our cash!
I’m surprised the melting part didn’t come up at all, I’m picking up my first finecast today (not by choice, only option available) and I’m kinda worried it might just be a puddle of resin in a tiny plastic box since it’s been 100+ degrees out here for the past week or two (Texas). Really, if they used the exact same resin as FW and let them handle it I would be all about finecast, but alas they don’t…
Well big surprise, not melted but completely full of bubbles on every tiny detail, it’s abbadon so every spike on the model has a bubble in it’s place, hunks of foot, shoulderpad, and armor abundant. Here’s to hoping the replacement will be good.
I’ve had a 50/50 relationship with the new Finecast minis. The first being when I first picked up a new Finecast (A lictor,) I popped it open, and saw that there were two holes in the back carapace. I called GW Customer Service, and they said no problem, and sent me another one. They had to keep sending in new ones though, every new Lictor I got was miscast. Everything ranging from, missing pieces, to miscast heads and arms etc. etc. I ended up getting four lictors for the price of one.
This led to the plus side to the finecast. I’ve been playing Tyranids since 1999. I have a few metal minis in my collection. Putting together lictors was not always the easiest thing, and the old metal models (3rd and 4th edition.) weren’t forgiving for customizing. I’ve always wanted to model a lictor in a getting ready to pounce pose. With the new finecast, a bit of chopping, minor amounts of Greenstuff and some super glue, and my lictor was ready to jump out and assault some bio mass. It went together easily, and the pose looks pretty darn nifty. I haven’t painted them yet, so that remains to be seen.
It’s 50/50 so far. The detail is pretty good, but like Darrel said: You just have to wait until you get a good one!
To get your defective model replaced did you have to buy your model from GW online or a Store? i.e have proof of purchase? Cause I wanted to buy from Wayland Games but if the items are defective I don’t want to run into problems with getting them replaced?
GW made it, they’ll replace it. They seem to be responding well to customers with Finecast issues, from what I’ve heard. If they weren’t replacing them it would be a PR storm.
Well, if nothng else it makes them worth the price!
Fantastic video, love the info on the molding processes!
I bought the Stormcaller Space Wolf guy.. The detail is “impressive” I’d say it’s about 10% more crisp and sharp than the metal. A bit better is better than not better at all I guess. It is NOT bendy as GW say. In fact some parts are just as fragile as metal, or even plastic. DO NOT go around bending stuff! You will cry when you snap it. Do not test the Resin gods!
I was lucky to have a miss-cast free model. It had seven bubbles in, 2 of which were a little bigger than the normal. The bubbles do ruin the experience of getting the model after you fork out a lot of cash, and certainly render the item defective. I cannot think of an product out there where you get defective products and shrug it off with a “meh, that’s gonna happen”. It’s insane. But, one could fix the bubbles with a bit of super glue etc (but why should you? given the cost of the things! it’s offensive).
Overall, ignoring the retail price etc, it’s a pretty decent model. Easy to glue together. The bubbles are disgusting but I’m just pretending they’re not there right now. There are probably some fools-of-a-took who think bubbles should not be a negative as you can fix them easily. Firstly, not everyone is versed in modeling etc, and these are not ‘expert’ models, they are all bread-and-butter models. Secondly, just think about what you’re saying for a second. Is it ok for KFC to sell chicken slightly undercooked, where you just say “meh, I’ll just put it in the oven for 5 minutes?” or a book with several pages torn out? where you go “meh, I’ll just write my own page and insert it”. It’s disgusting. This may well be unavoidable but the price does not make this cool at all.
It’s an improvement on metal, I think. The bigger models are gonna be amazing and easy to glue. That’s what finecast is talking about. No more pinning, no more crying over arms falling off. The model does feel cheap but the detail and sharpness makes you see things in a different light. Putting the price aside (and assuming GW stop putting out miss-cast models), for collectors and painters who aren’t collecting armies to fight, Finecast is perfect! The lightness and extra crispiness, the easy of cutting, no more pinning.
News in.
Finecast blister packs to be replaced by bubblewrap.
Pity cost savings are not being passed on to customers and then the price goes up.
If it is due to wastage, then something seems reaaly off about to me.
Not good that so much plastires will occupy landfill sites from here until Grimdark Day.
We will see if they sort it out and if the reduced wastage is reflected in the price 😉
you shouldnt HAVE to gamble 50/50 as to whether you get a fault free product, especially after a price rise 😮
Great vid, . personally I hate metal , I’ve got a v1 war wyvern in lead that I bought 17+ years ago that still wont stay together, its pinned twice, heavy as a brick and is covered in aryldite. It was the fantastic plastics that got me back into the hobby a few years ago, but I would never buy metal ever again. Not sure if I would buy fine cast either though, as the models are just the same old metal models as before but in a new medium. They’re definitely better detailed though.
i think that gw is copying priveerter press . they stated doing this last year . with there warjacks . and i love what they did . so i hope gw gets it together ..
I have yet to get my hands on any of the finecast kits, so I will reserve my judgement for now. Finecast is a good change for GW, as in general resin is a vastly superior material to metal.
we could see some awsome sculpts to come out of GW over the near future.
Just look at some of the othe companies using resin and how fantastic their models are. Take Forgeworld, Studio McVey, Kingdom Death, Sodapop miniatures, Enigma and Micro Arts Studios as just a few examples.
I like them but its unacceptable to pay what they are charging me for them and even worse if they are horribly cast.
I will stay with all those metal ones I bought the past year or so. Until I see a significant change for the better on the casts of this then I will not buy any.
There are a few Finecast boxed sets which I think are reasonable. The Tech Marines and Servators boxed set and the Mandrakes for Dark Eldar seem awright cost wise. Two ok priced finecast boxes are better than none ha ha.
As pointed out above, loss of detail in metal is down to shrinkage, this also happens in polymers but at a lower degree. You get more flashing in polymers generally due to them being lighter materials and less viscous than metals.
my question is why did they have metal models in the first place i know its a dumb question but ive only been playing for about 6 months
Metal allows for better detail than plastic.
Your hobbies history stretches back a long time (Even HG Wells wrote a war game) anyway Metal up until about 15 – 20 years ago was the only viable option for high quality miniatures, unless you were producing army men 😉
We owe a lot to Pewter, Led, Tin and its alloys 😉
don’t forget good old lead :p
I agree hobby will in long term shift away from the metal. But just wait for a few years and GW are going the say they were the first to produce their stuff in resin.
Ignoring the detail, I’m wondering about the smooth armour areas of the models. Metal had a pitted semi-rough texture. How is the the resin is it smother?
It’s outstanding actually, really, really smooth! Armour especially.
Excellent feature guys, it’s great to have you back on form after the depression surrounding the youtube removal. I have found my fine cast models to be very nice to paint, although they seem to take washes a bit more heavily than metals. Is this due to the porous nature of the fine cast resin?
Possibly that, but it may be that the sharper edges are holding more of the wash in the recesses.
I’ll go with what was stated in the vid that this is phse one of Finecast and errors are bound. That said I think they should of held off the down pour of Finecast and slowly filled the shelves,
Finecast – same miniatures, more price, more defects.
No thanks.
The “sharpness” of a metal model is mainly dependant on the metal mix that is used.One with a higher tin content will provide finer detail than one with a higher lead content. Remember just like resin not all metals are the same.
Actually, if you can re shape it by applying heat means this is not a resin.
Since it means it is a thermoplastic material and not a thermostable material.
A thermoplastic material can be melted againg, a thermostable one will just burn and degenerate.
I haven’t had a finecast miniature yet, but this can only be an alloy or a full thermoplastic material. so most likely it is not a 2 plart mix like common resin.
I love metal. I don’t mind working with it. It gives a miniature a weight in all the meanings of the word.
Plastic looks cheap but is very durable so ok for toys to be thrown around.
Resin is… well… feels cheap and breaks easily. It’s a lose-lose situation. The only advantage of resin is that it’s super easy to make a mould so this has always been a good option for small, poor companies or limited runs (like Forgeworld started).
Hi Guys,
Nice video, but i am missing some parts. Why didn’t you guys do a comparison with a metal miniature?
You talk about the advantage and cheer foresight GW is doing with this, wasn’t Mantic one of the first coming up with “resin” as an alternative? It was the undead cavalry if i am not wrong.
There are some good points, some of them we covered in our own review (along with a couple of pictures), but i don’t really see the point with the vehicles. I see advantages with monster and larger miniatures you couldn’t do in pewter (to heavy) or plastic (to low numbers) and especially with some dynamic poses for miniatures.
Anyhow, keep up the good work. And if you are interested, take a look at our review and drop a few lines, what you think about it;
http://www.brueckenkopf-online.com/?p=37868 (german)
And in english via google translater;
http://translate.google.de/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.brueckenkopf-online.com%2F%3Fp%3D37868
Armourcast were the first to do epic-40k units for normal 40k in the late 80tys.
But they got sued by GW 😀
That was before Forgeworld ever came around.
And now its the big ternd in wargameing BIGGER units for all games (trygon, dreadknight SoM ect.)
im completely on the fence not tried will try and will see what the results are
Another thought: now you will not be able to tell apart a GW-made cast from a home-made cast after it’s painted.
And in most European countries outside of UK making copies for yourself, your family and friends is legal (so called “allowed use” which is very different from UK’s “fair use”).
its called a backup 😀
so what… GW has the power to sell cheaper if they wanted to.
i like the finecast models, they go together quite well with only a dab of superglue. I wouldn’t buy them unseen just yet, but i am looking forward to seeing what will be coming out when they get better with it. I’m not sure that they will be able to make huge models with it because it is so rubbery, there would be a point at which it would sag under it’s own weight. I certainly wouldn’t like a Rhino made of finecast. I’d be interested to see plastic and finecast hybrid kits for things like panelling on dreadnoughts.
@warzan Was that a wink or a twitch right after you mentioned the plastic warhound titan coming out just in time for Christmas?
NOT ALL TRUE
I have been casting both resin and metal… the fakt is resin is half the price of metal
and it gets even less if you add aluminum-pulver to it wish makes the resin greyish and acts as a filler… you can add up to 50% wich means the resin now is a nother about 15-20% cheaper so its only about 30% of metal.
You also say that resin has more misscasts… wich is not true… metal has much more misscasts. So along with not needing to heat up the metal you save a lot of time (less employees for GW)
You also claim that resin miscasts are scrap and end up as spezial-litter… this is also not fully true becaus you can shredd the miscasts and flashings to pulver or sand and add it back into the new cast… wich saves you a lot of resin. This is particulary effectiv on big figures & if you massproduce resin figs. You have no litter if you do it right.
Also note that it is possibe to add almost anything too the resin… stuff that makes it harder… that makes it softer OR JUST SCRAP (i did that a lot to save money 😀 )
The MOULDS… it is actually possibe to re use the metal moulds… what you have to do is creas em up a bit to avoid them from breaking. Its not the best way to do it but i´m just saying.
The bubbels can be due to diffrent things. Not mixing the resin correctly. Not enough airvents for the air to get out (thats the reason for all the flashing) or a ast reason can be CASTING TO QUIK.
GW prob. rushed the casting and added a lot of scrap, used the old moulds and so on… just did everything to keep it cheap. I WOULD HAVE DONE SO 🙂
Also think of the cheaper shipping for GW due to the weight.
I do not expect the quality to go up ….
but the prices sure will 🙂 annually ofc 😀
GW might have investeded to change to resin… but its not fair to put this on the customers!
The prices are now like FW… maybe this “FINECAST” stuff will bring big apoc FW typ figs in future but the prices will be FW too :/
I sure won´t by any FAILCASTs
I highly doubt that GW did this on the cheap (its not their style).
I think quality issues are down to perhaps rushing to meet the launch deadlines, and perhaps some process issues – but I seriously doubt that they are cutting corners on the materials.
Some interesting points on pulverizing resin and reintroducing it to the mix though!
GW has been on a cost-cutting bonanza for years now. Whatever method they use for Finecast they think its cheaper, and that’s why they do it.
well they didn´t launch it over night :/
they coud have pushed the launch back… the figs aren´t new or bound to a dex releas
they made the deadline like it is/was
maybee caus the price hike needed to come sooner better than later?
Interesting about shredding miscasts.
I hope that is the case for all sorts of reasons.
One thing that was evident was the yellow rubbery matter that was reported on some Finecast models.
This is apparently the ribber mould.
I am not sufficiently knowledgable enough about the process but if it is the mould that suggests hat there are some serious problems. The mould would require remaking!
Can anyone substantiate this or refute please?
coud be the mould… sometimes parts break out of the mould when releasing the cast
if that happens you need to make a new one… caus more and more will break from the mould
True , Shipping would be a lot cheaper with resin probably
It depends. Most big logistical companies (DHL, UPS, etc…) charge their clients for volymetric weight or the actual weight of the parcel, which ever is the highest. So I don’t think that the savings in shipping costs are actually that significant in this material shift.
Then again, most companies that export a lot of goods usually have some form of shipping contracts with logistical companies giving them certain benefits.
Spartan games use resin and their models are fantastic!
I dont care how nice it could be, im not touching GW stuff anymore, its still way too expensive so they go go swivel.
TBH once painted theres not much differance, plus Mantic are so much cheaper, i just got the starter battleset, over 100 minis , 2 seperate heoes , a set of archers and a whole paint set for £60, if it was GW itll be hundreds.
Failcast.
I have done a fair bit of casting in resin over the years and had my fair share of issues with air bubbles.This is my take on finecast issues.
Air bubbles occur in resin partly due to the chemical reaction of the the two parts, resin plus catalyst and due to the mixing of said parts. Also air bubbles can be introduced into the resin during the pouring of the resin and air bubbles can be trapped in the mould during the pour.
Answer to bubbles in the resin is to put it into a vacuum chamber and reduce the pressure to below minus 30mmHg, millimols of mercury, this reduces the atmospheric pressure excerting on the resin causing any air bubbles to rise to the surface. The resin then needs to be poured, either a long pour, from high up, that again reduces the possibility of air bubbles albeit a very crude method. Or use a closed system where the resin will flow into the moulds through pipes.
Reducing bubbles in moulds. Use of a lubricant or release agent to reduce friction from moulds to resin allowing the resin to flow easier. Viscosity, flowability not thickness, of resin. Once poured the resin filled mould should then receive the vacumm chamber treatment. Deep undercuts may still hold air bubbles and need vents.
If you still have problems with air bubbles after all this you can then put the resin filled mould into a pressure chamber which will reduce the size of the air bubbles to barely visible. All this takes time and some resins are quick to cure.
Centrafugel moulds don’t really benefit resin, a vacuum chamber is what you need.
Hope this was helpful. I prefer metal models although I am coming round to plastic, I know, dinosaur, but metal lasts and feels like it’s worth the money.
I think your right about the quality. Citadel have the best looking models out there at the moment – and I am also with Darrell. I HATE metal miniatures and would love to see everything in plastic, and this being ‘finecast’ its great for me in terms of actually sitting down and painting, sculpting with it.
However – I think that we need to see maybe some more interesting developments with new designs before we pass proper judgement on this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iOsMf18CNs
This guy got a Space Marine chaplain with a couple of chunks of the mould on it. They’re bright yellow/cream and rubbery.
lolz 😀
how he says “its a pretty good product” when it is CLEARLY just a big peace o sh!t 😀
you can´t fix it… its beound naughty word expunnged up 😀
Well I would prefer a thing I spend time to convert and paint was a stable material, don’t know how much the paint job would behave if the thing melted on the hot summer here, I have seen a hierophant legs give away because of the ambient heat and its fall was not a graceful or survivable one (was on top of an IKEA display cabinet).
I think the detail is just an optical illusion. Metal is reflective and as such makes it harder to make out the detail, this is the reason you give them a slight wash so that it’s easier to see the details.
The only way to really compare the new restic to the old plastic would be to do a 3D laser scan of them, put them on top of each other and then do a boolean in where one eats up the other so you are left with nothing but the differences in the models. This is the only way they could be compared without an individuals prejudice.
See if you can have some models 3D scanned and compare them, then again GW might look at that as copy right infringement…
You make a good point about the cost of the material. Even if its cheaper than metal the miscasts may balance out any savings. I think the real value of resin verses metal is actually the transport costs due to the difference in weight. Transport and postage costs have been going up as well as the cost of metal.
You can transport (by weight) a much larger quantity of those resin models verses the metal models. The saving in postage and transport alone would be huge especially if you consider them distributing to other countries from a central location in the UK.
The reduce transport and shipping cost also generates far more savings as they dont have to have production facilities over seas as the cost to ship would no longer outweigh the cost to produce locally. Much less duplication of moulds, much less risk counterfeiting, much tighter control over rumours, much less staff and administration.
That’s just my guess on the saving that GW would see.
I recently bought 3 Tyranid Hive Guard from mailorder (big fan of mailorder), here are my thoughts.
Good points: no pinning, just whack some super-glue on the joints and it’s done. Flash was easy to clean up. Less brittle than Forgeworld resin pieces. Detail was excellent. They took paint really well and were a joy to paint compared to metal. They don’t chip as badly when the model tips over on the table. According to GW they pose no health risk (this was a show stopper for old resin as I didn’t want to take the risk with my kids health).
Bad points: More flash – it actually took longer to clean off than metal. Disappointing amount of bubbles on fine detail. 1 of the 3 had a severe defect including part of the mold retained on the right hand side of the neck along with about a 1cc blob of resin that looked like it leaked out from where the mold broke.
Overall: I don’t miss metal. I will continue to buy GW but less often due to price. I think for the time being I’ll only buy finecast if I can eyeball the packet beforehand to look for obvious casting defects. I’ll continue to buy plastics mailorder (if Wayland Games ever clear their backlog).
We want it Stress Tested! Heat, cold, compression, tension, “accidental” drops, bond strength, conversion ease, speed painting ease, detail painting ease. Do all of these (and any more) with Finecost (failcast, finecash, failcost), plastic, metal, and Forge World similar resins. Give us a subjective report!
Please?
Hey guys, i would be interested to see how citadel finecast compares to Mantics plastic resin they are doing. I know mantic started trying it out after finecast, but id like to see how they compare, because mantic is cheaper, i would like to see if the quality is justifiable
Mantic didn’t start using resin AFTER Finecast – they started using it BEFORE Finecast.
Ha easier to work with yer right assembly will be quicker shire but then you need to spend hours filling gaps etc and their is no way they could make tanks out of this material it would cost a fortune just to buy one tank seeing as the price on these models didn’t go down at all I really can’t see the point in changing materials other than gw is attempting to make more profit
Hmm yeah im not sure what I think about them. I dont like the idea that they are as soft and flexable. I dont mind if they are flexable to a point. But they seem SOOO soft. If they can melt just by being low sunlight, I wounder whats going to happen to them in the shop windows of our stores in Australia?? If they were abit firmer, and just slightly less prone to melting ie higher melting point I think they would be great.
I can get over the fact that there are issues with misscasts at the moment. Like they said, there is def going to be some early problems. And air bubbles are the same. For the most part there not going to be that much of a problems, and abit of plastic glue would probally be enough to fix them. Unless you do get one on the nose, or a finger then it might be problematic.
The benifits are huge though. Apart from being able to put them together quicker and easyier or even the converstion factor, I see the biggest advantage is with the old metal-plastic hybrid kits. Something like a Hammer head with its huge heavy metal turret. Once that changes to resin that would be great. Or any of the kits that have metal space marines or models with plastic guns or backpacks. It will be much easyier glueing them together. Nothing worse than trying to glue metal and plastic together.
So for me, I like them in principle. I really dont see that being THAT soft is a good thing. Imagin if they did make a titan out of this stuff. Or even a stormraven. It would probally collapse under its own weight. Or when you move it around the board you might even see it flexing lol. Anyhow thats just my opinion. With someluck they will fix the misscasts, maybe reduce the number of bubbles that come through and hopefully harden them up abit. Maybe they measured out the “hardener” wrong and went abit lean 🙂
People are saying “they have poor quality control” right now, with Finecast.
That is wrong. They have NO quality control, pretty much. Someone needs to lose their job for this IMO. It’s insane what’s going on! I know someone who took back 3 Azhuag on Wyverns. He had Karl Franz’s Champion misscast with NO FEET. This is just insane, a rush job. GW dropped the ball, and it’s gonna cost them ALOT not to mention the bad PR.
What we will see, I suspect, is a lot of “cheap” costing finecast for the Hobbit miniatures, when the movie comes out next year. I predict, as they want the prices to be competitive and not offputting for the new Hobbit/LOTR movie/game fans they are gonna be attracting.
I went into my local GW last week and took a look. The sales guy pulled out two models that had clearly been examined carefully by the shop for defects before being used as sales promotionals. No flash, no defects, and clearly cleaned up for customer examination. The guy said no one in their right mind asks more for a faulty product. Clearly he was wrong. GW have successfully raided the piggy banks of their addicted customer base. In fact they have shown that you can replace a working product with a defective one (50% fail rate plus VERY large questions about environmental stability of the plastic in heat/direct sunlight.) and charge significantly more for it.
To me it would appear that GW is a business designed to fleece a marketplace and not to promote or further the expansion of a hobby. To that end they are being very successful. They are also following the games and software industry standards of quality control. Make product to look something like within a short period of time. Ship to store with lots of fanfare and nice visuals. Wait for customers to realise product is not fit for purpose and patch up what ever surfaces in aftermath having already taken all the cash up front for an untried untested and in most cases defective product that no quality control has been applied to. Lets face it why even bother with quality control when you have a ‘holic’ audience willing to part with cash and do the job for you?
I do like the look of the new figures for tomb kings. I do not like the way GW operates or its contempt for its customer base. This is not about just new materials its about shearing sheep. My money flow to GW has ceased. They will have to work a lot harder to improve quality before I will look at their ranges again. But then there are plenty of sheep aren’t there?
(PS. I have a nice three wheeled Rolls Royce sat on the yard. Its made of plastic but all the badges say Rolls Royce…….Its yours for 3 million.. anyone want?)
I made the decision when it was announced NOT to buy any finecast GW models for at least 8 to 12 months. I thought it prudent to give them that time to get their formula / processes perfected before i decide to hand them any of my hard earned money. Besides, I got plenty of stuff to be getting on with!
Wow! Look! It’s flexible, ain’t it great!
Whoops, the paint just fell off the sword because the model flexed….
I like metal, I like resins used by other companies. I like plastics.
But good detail doesn’t count if there are bubbles, it doesn’t count if half the gun is missing, it doesn’t count if the models melt on the work table, and it doesn’t count if the sword flexes and the freakin’ paint flakes off.
This is just a really bad choice for a resin.
First off guys, unless your bill gates, you can’t ignore the price. GW have released an inferior product to sale at a high price for what it is…
I agree with Darrell after having seen these in person, they are no better in detail then the metal models but are prone to a lot of flaws that the metal didn’t have.
You can’t kill the metal because the metal is better 😀
As for tin coming out of the ground and the price of tin…. Watch the price of oil. It’s by no means stable. The resin was released so that GW could increase its profit margin.
As for the excuse that it’s the 1st wave of resin. Look at PP’s first wave of resin, they are not releasing models with the degree of flaws that these have and they are producing their resin stuff on a massive scale to do a increase in demand. Thinking back, ive never personally bought a resin model with flaws in it, generally companies have good quality control…. GW probably have one of the worst quality control checks I’ve come across, even for their premium stuff by forgeworld has poor quality control.
Thanks for the video guys. I agree largely with Warren but feel Darrell may have a point also. I’ve yet to see any Finecast first hand but after you clean up metal and give it a good wash/undercoat the detail has been great. I’ve seen a few photgraphic examples of both products primed and there’s no real discernable difference. Until I get hold of and paint a few I won’t be able to tell exactly what it’s like. I’m sure it’s easier to use for conversions and for general gaming but am concerned about the material – if it melts or gets cold what will this do to the mini and my x hour paint job – I know it can be reformed but the question is how well the paint adheres to the surface, will it flake or crack etc…
I agree with others. A BoW Mythbuster’s Finecast special is needed – how are you guys at science? Goggles and labcoats at the ready 🙂
My concerns are now with the 2nd hand market. Most models, even plastic, can be stripped to a decent standard, but with Finecast I’m afraid it’s just going to melt – meaning these things will lose value unless they are well painted and defect free. I’m curious about the new material and want to see what sculpts they’ve come up with for finecast – it’ll be interesting to see what details, dimensions and dynamics they can now have the ability to sculpt.
The cynic in me says that they haven’t altered the cost because of wastage however – it may cost them in the first run or two, but after that they will be making more money than metal. If Mantic could include twice the minis for the same cost for a similar material this just underlines how much we’re being ripped off – I just can’t see the Finecast material being as costly as metal – so it bends more than plastic & metal – is this a property I want in a model?
A question for me remains what to do with these Finecast sprues – if they’re not recyclable then that’s a strange contradiction to GW’s recycling/saving/wastage policy. The least GW could have done was a Finecast Q&A for everyone as part of the ostentatious press release – No it’s not carconogenic, yes/no it can/can’t be recylcled – it will need disposing of at your local dump etc etc…I’m no extreme eco warrior but you think they would have taken such a possible concern into account when designing the material.
I’d also like to highlight that GW’s pricing is not so much based on material costs. According to Kirby the prices of plastic closed in on metal because a mini or equal quality – design and aesthetics etc – should be a more or less equal price, regardless of what it’s made from. A GW plastic mini should not be less than a GW metal/finecast one – simply because it’s plastic. Apparantly. It’ll be interesting to see the prices of the new Storm of Magic plastic mages – my guess is from between £8-10+
Thanks again guys, it’ll be interesting to see what the reaction to Finecast is 6 months on.
Mantic might be using a cheaper Resin, well obviously they are using an inferior, cheaper resin (correct me if I’m wrong!) … but it might be that Mantic find resin cost effective, whilst GW’s resin is different and not cost-effective.
We expect models that will only be bought once to be more expensive as it’s not the best idea to sell them cheaply (GW do take the p*ss in though). Mantic are quite crazy at what they charge, however, sell stuff far too cheaply imo.
He’s kinda wrong about a couple of points, GW haven’t used the old Black Rubber Molds IN A LONG time, they have been using a much more durable synthetic material thats a fleshy pink in colour. The reason the Finecast looks so good is that its cast cold, when you cast any heated material – gas naturally builds up (its these gasses that causes the rounded overly shiny castings you see from time to time) with a cold casting process, no heat so no gas. Also, its a bit of a “visual” con. Casting in a neutral grey colour will always let you see more detail than looking at shiney metal, try black washing a finecast and a duplicate metal model – look at the details when dry, barring heat issues it will pretty much have the same details on it. Lastly, you should STILL PIN YOUR MODELS – sure the new material is lighter, but Super Glue still perishes over time.
Superglue … or glue in general… perishes !? ( !! )
Eventually it goes brittle and flaky, there is no glue that lasts forever.
The wastage issue is an interesting one, especially considering you can only re-cast metal a certain number of times before it can’t be used again. The material they are using costs a LOT less than their metals did, they could happily have kept the prices the same and re-couped the cost of new molds. The Powers that be at the Evil Empire are just being greedy again.
we shouldn’t have to pay that much for a miniature then have to titivate it you expect flashing but not holes in the minis
seen some horrors- once QC is sorted this could be awesome.
I would prefer plastic or metal rather than this love child
Of course cost is also a factor here
This was a great video and discussion (although the audio stuttered a lot on my ipad for some reason).
Really enjoyed the information from Warren, and I’m with him 100% – I think the quality is better, it’s easier to work with than metal by FAR, it’s more “pleasant” to work with, and I do think GW will get better at catching poor casts before they reach the store.
I wasn’t following Darrel – he seemed like a fan, and then not a fan. I don’t agree that they are cheap feeling or looking by any means. I like them a lot better than Forgeworld resin pieces.
I do agree iwth Darrel – I really hate metal models these days. I hate them so much, it’s keeping me from really digging into Privateer games right now. Would be super happy to see them go 100% plastic and resin.
One cost that doesnt come up and probably isn’t being passed on to us consumers: shipping. GW ships to it’s stores all over the world, and metal models in large numbers are heavy. This should shave off a considerable amount of freight cost annually from their bottom line.
Finally – yeah, I’m a bit disappointed by the cost. Some of the single models are fine, but the larger ones like the Casket of Souls are just reaching ridiculous price levels.
My 2 cents. Overall, I’m very pleased by this move.
i do like non metal stuff better but i really dont see the improvement in the finecast from the old metal its just more delicate and mostly the same looking that undercut bit forsure but the rest really just cant see it
i DO actualy like the PP metal i havent had a problem with it yet its well looking and no much of anything on it for me to complain about also really like the plastic-y type stuff they use aswell its very hard and doesnt have bubbles or excessive flashing or that kinda stuff..just put together my phoenix and had the arm glued on a little low with zap a gap medium…thats not coming off i think i can throw this thing across the room and the sword and all would be intact lol imo i dont like working with resin i had a hell of a time with forgeworld death korpse very very delicate so frustrating
also i love zap a gap it will stick anything to anything in like half a second metal resin plastic it doesnt matter zap a gap sticks stuff to stuff and that stuff will not come apart for anything giving a min to set hard
as far as ive seen the finecast have tons of isssues that are just more work than is really worth it for what they are compared to the metal i saw a guy on flickr he had one of the blood angel guys cant remember the name but his axe was missing the middle half of the handle and part of the blade also had like 4 bubbles on it even on the elbow which would be a pain to fix and have it look natural if they get better i think they will be nice if they dont then i think they realllllllly messed up
oh btw finally got the araknorok!!!!! me and my brother are going to get it built and painted up this week 😀 TY the box looks like its been through a war half ripped open and what not lol but the gw box is fine so is the model so its all good
thanks
i think the new models are pretty good but my thoughts are that its a little better in quality (really nice but so where the metals) its about the same to build, but once the undercoats are on, i can’t really see the detail.
Finecast? More like Failcast or Failcost. There has not been quality control watch so ever with these from GW. Its like they don’t care anymore what they produce becouse they know that people will buy it.
Hmm, I don’t know, Resin can be pretty awesome, but still, in sunlight when you dry it when you sprayed it with chaos black, it can melt so, I don’t really know, I know my old metal Deff Dread model is looking rather awesome 😀
Garbage. Finecast is more like CRAPCAST and a reason to raise prices. GW is insane but of course players will fork over money for inferior product
As a scale modeller there are a few misnomers about resin in this vid, mostly resin is hard and a little brittle.
The only other models I’ve seen that have a bendy resin feel to them, have been either other wargames manufacturers, or B-Club Gundam hands I had imported from Japan.
I think its probably some kind of steel tooling using injection/vacuum casting.
actually having watched further, not steel tooling… now I feel like a div. :/
Really informative and well put together video… but please don’t put adverts in the middle of the video!!
given the amount of wastage, they should have an ‘offcasts’ line where they sell their miscasts at a discount – perfect for people who want to convert stuff and GW also can sell the returned moulds rather then chucking stuff away
To be fair, that’s a very good idea. I’d buy that stuff, because I’m doing conversions all the time. I’d gladly use bits from broken models. I’m sure I’d find a use for the somewhere.
I was just thinking about your ideas of a titan from this stuff, would it be able to support that kind of weight.
After 25 years of buying workshop I have moved away, in particular to Artizan, Bolt action, Foundry, Heresy and West wind.
Many reasons.
1. Value for money.
2. Well produced and highly detailed models (in most cases)
3. World war two.
4. Metal.
Im not saying metal is the bees leg joints but it is more durable for gaming purposes and in my opinion a nicer material to paint.
I have many resin pieces in my collection from marauders to chaos nurle sorcerors (mainly Fw) and again, in my opinion, finecast isnt.
It is not a fine product.
BAM red devils is a fine product. Heresys Doctor Hugh is a fine product. Free from imperfection with fine detail.
Finecast is a bit half assed.
I would feel cheated at the price for an (in my opinion) inferior material with many casting issues.
So, sadly, goodbye Citadel. The only product I intend to continue purchasing is thier detail brush which I rate as highly as my Vallejo red sables (and maybe thier washes for consistency).
There are other companies out there for sci fi and fantasy.
Companies that manage to make a living without ra*ing thier customers.
In my opinion.
Nurgle. Curses to my typing skills (lack of)
A good introduction to Finecast. But I’m still going to disagree with you…
Miscasts should never be accepted. And certainly not in a product bought at a premium price. With the current price demanded by Games Workshop I expect to get a complete cast with no faults what so ever. Heck, after the last price-hike I’d almost expect it to be cast in gold…
Also, let’s not forget that these are not Forgeworld models. While those of us who buy Forgeworld kit might know how to handle resin, you cannot expect Joe Average to know how to work with greenstuff, fillers, superglue, and hot water.
13:50 scared the crap out of me
P.S. darrell how do you make your own resin do you hire someone or what please send my a link to there website if you hire someone
I have to say, I’m liking the resin a hell of a lot more than the metal models. With the metal, I didn’t find too much difficulty in the painting (although there were models that didn’t undercoat properly for some reason and the spray paint didn’t really work on them), it was the initial building of them and trying to do conversions. I have 10 Necron Flayed Ones, all of which have broken at some point due to, in my opinion, a poor model design, the superglue doesn’t hold fantastically and they are heavy when they drop, which unfortunately I do often drop models because I’m a bit clumsy 😛 Also, I have an Ogre Maneater which I converted to be my Tyrant, and some of the plastic fiddly bits I added didn’t stay on because the glue was just not applying to the metal well enough for a solid hold, and I may or may not have dropped him as well.
Now, onto finecast models, I bought Grimgor Ironhide first. Really easy to build and paint, and, as a risky test, I threw him on the floor to see of would break (with more force than my metals have had to put up with), and he didn’t bend or break in any shape of form. I also bought a Black Orc Warboss, which I intended to make conversions on. It was incredibly easy to convert and add plastic bits to. I also threw him on the floor, and this model had many more spikey bits on it and it too withstood the fall with no problems.
Sorry about the essay, but I just wanted to say why I think that Finecast is one of GW’s better ideas. More detail, more survivability and easier conversions.
Bit old but: I noticed today that Finecast is limited ot three purchases per customer due to ‘demand’. So, either the range is flying off the line or, as the cynic in me suspects, quality is so poor, with so many miscasts and such a high levle of discards that they’re restricting sales to prevent the public backlash.
Clever marketing, but we’re not all as naive as they’d like.
I got a metal Azhag about a month after they had been out, very easy to build no pinning so great in that respect. However the detail isn’t that great, I had to do lots of filling and it even had miscasting on the scales which I had to repair. It’d be interesting to know if anyone else has had problems with the same miniatures, like Warren said with it likely to be the same areas that havve the miscasting problems. The detail is sharper though. Still not sure though. For bigger miniatures Finecast yes. But I think I prefer metal for smaller man sized miniatures. They’re just too flexible for small miniatures. However at least you don’t stab your fingers on spear tips like my old goblin spear men.
Painting seemed to be no different to be truthful apart from having to do three layers of undercoat for it to take, so maybe GW are talking out of their poop shoots when they say you don’t need to wash them first.
has anyone used a stiffening agent on the finecast stuff? coat it with something that will resist bending, that should help defend against paint chipping.
Ads on these videos are getting worse
Yet a gain we have a concept to improve product and customer appreciation, that is delt with proffessionaly and sensibly by every other company apart from GW.
Is quality ( plastic)resin a better material to work with for the end user.YES.
Does it allow savings on material costs and shipping, so you can pass on saving to customers.YES
All other companies seem to provide an equivellent or better quality (plastic)resin product than the metal minatures they replaced.
At the same retail price or cheaper…
GW plc managed to release lower quality products at a higher price, and sold suplimental products to let the end customer fix GW quality issues…
The move to resin from metal is a great idea..
Its just GW managed to make a complete mess of it .(In comparison to other companies.)
A year and a half later and we’re still getting warped figured that look like swiss cheese. The quality control is horrible on these figures.
if i wanted an Aero bar id buy one not this failcost stuff, luckily for GW they still do some great plastics.
Extra crispness…..pah! This is a case of the Emperor’s new clothes. If you can’t see the improvement, you must be stupid..or something along those lines. Finecast is using the same molds right? So tell me how it can be any better? I’ve bought GW models for many years now and cannot see how FC is any better than Metal was. Ok it wins when you’re having to build something like a hive Tyrant (which was a royal pain in the posterior…with pinning and the like), but it loses out big-time when you consider the bubbles, the half-bubbles you get in place of an actual spike/tooth/talon etc…..I used to complain about cleaning-up and converting metal…but I’d gladly take it back tomorrow.