August 15, 2012 by darrell
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Darrell is asked a question about when and if you should refuse a challenge during an assault.
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Switched off half way through, if you need to change the dice to make your narrow scenario work, then maybe you need to rethink the purpose of the video 😉
wow you must be new. whenever the dice rolls are bellow average and ruin the point of the video it’s easier to simply adjust them than keep re-filming the entire thing until you get what you want. for the purposes of the demonstration it’s fine, it’s just to show you what should happen.
What ‘should’ happen isn’t what actually happened though is it, just goes to show why we use the dice to obtain random results rather than an arbitrary result. My post doesn’t make me new or young and with decent editing rather than cheating, a better video could have been made. They should have been prepared for a poor dice result and suggested how to deal with it.
once again, it’s just a demonstration. if it was an actual game then yes it would have been cheating but for the purposes of the demonstration it’s fine. you’re the only person i’ve ever seen to have a problem with it.
as for the whole “new guy” thing it was because this is hardly the first time they’ve done it, if you’re only spotting it now you can’t have seen many videos.
….. throws rotten tomatoes at spud. This was a use of challenges I hadn’t thought of, another interesting and well explained vid – keep up the good work!
I agree – cool video… dice changes don’t matter as long as the odds make sense – easier than re-shooting the video 🙂
Couple of things:
1. There’s some argument about extra wounds in challenges carrying over to the rest of the squad (rules are clear that squad can’t wound challengers, but fuzzy on challengers wounding the squad).
2. In the first example, once the Tau sgt. is dead the assault is over as no-one is in base-to-base contact with Logan (challengers only count as being in b2b with each other, and assaults end when no model is in b2b with an enemy model).
Yeah, it’s bit fuzzy with carrying over to the squad (though I play not)… the second point should be covered by the End of Combat Pile In (BRB pg27)…
… also, it might of been mentioned in the vid but I think the Tau Sgt would also get a free re-roll due to Moral Support 🙂
I guess I haven’t had enough coffee yet but the point here was to refuse to accept the challenge so that the unit dies faster (i.e. in a single round of combat) and therefore could be shot by the other unit before Logan could assault them too?
At its most basic yes, its better to lose 6 fire warriors in one turn than 6 fire warriors and 3 crisis suits in two turns in this example.
Ok. That kind of tactic is waaay to deep for someone of my age and brain power to think to use 🙂
NEVER SURRENDER!!!!!! my powerfist guy can squish all-comers
The way I saw it was that, if you refuse the challenge, then your crisis suits get to light up Logan, cause he is not locked in combat with other Tau units. However, the scenario they had setup rarely happens. I know if I try and run an IC around alone, it gets ugly real fast!
If the lord refuses, does the rest of the squad still gets to fight (if any survive)?????
The rest of the squad gets to fight the next turn of combat. Not the same turn. That is if the End of Combat Pile-in was reached,which in most cases would.
If the Sgt. refuses the challenge, then yes the rest of the squad get to fight normally.
I play Tau. My hand cramps from all the letters I have to write to the wives of the fallen. Apparently on Tau, The Greater Good should be synonymous with a dead husband’s club.
Excellently explaining the pros and cons of accepting and refusing challenges.
Accept a challenge and troops live longer to get slaughtered next round while letting your enemy reinforcements to arrive.
Don’t accept a challenge, you sacrifice a small unit to get your attackers caught out-in-the-open for your better range weapon retaliation.
The Tau Challengee did get a re-roll for the Moral Support rule. Didn’t you see it. It was right there. Right… Oh ya…
he died before his fellow squad members could even cheer him on.
You could look at this an another way. If you accepted the challenge you would have your turn to move the suits 6″ + 3D6 and get the suits into a much stronger tactical position.
Shouldn’t the fire warriors have struck first as Grimnar’s attacks a power fist or power axe with + 2 str (faq says frost axe is unwieldy)? Also there was no over watch, a lucky hit or 2 on the way in may change the way you fight the assault. You might fancy taking 6 on the charge just on the sgt and hoping to get a wound first and then 5 on the fire warriors next round and hoping to get a wound before he strikes or he fails a roll or 2 and he is tied up for another turn. Finally, Grimnar does not have War Howl, that is Blackmane’s furious charge ability, he has living legend which only gives +1 attack to C:SW friendly units within 18″ not himself.
It could make sense to refuse a challenge if.
1. The unit being challenged is something like a banshees with masks. Striking at I10 and ap3 I would probably take my chances to keep my character alive and kill the challenger.
2. The unit has a mix of ap1, 2 and/or 3 weapons throughout vangaurd DC etc.Especially if the your character has an unwieldy weapon.
3. The unit is made of characters , paladins/nobs, the unit could be kept in single combat for a full game when really you want to bring numbers to bear and you wont suffer an leadership reduction as they all have the same stat.
4. If a Character is at the head of a unit and yours is at the back you might refuse and try to kill their character this round and use yours in the next .
5. The unit being challenged has massively overwhelming numbers say a blob of 50 conscripts. They are called a meatshield for a reason.
my understanding is that Logan’s weapon counts as a Unusual power weapon, so it is either a frost blade giving +1 strength with AP3 and striking at initiative, or a power fist. it talks about them on page 61 of the rule book, and in the codex it describes it as either a frost blade or power fist therefore you ignore the usual rule about it looks like an axe so its a frost axe.
But good video, I’m still trying to wrap my head around challenges and how to use them to the best effect
Unwieldy does change the option to accept the challenge I believe. Could Logan decide not to use his weapon and attack with base strength and initiative?
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