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Weekender XLBS: Diving Into 40k & Too Many Skirmish Games?
March 8, 2015 by warzan
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happy sunday 🙂
Happy Sunday!
wrath of kings wolves aka confrontation?
Yep. Given I will be painting up my Wolfen army for Confrontation in a few months time (once I move country) these are very very Rackham in style.
Happy Sunday!
Happy sunday backstagers!
There was apparently an ad announcing the forthcoming release of those Citadel Combat Cards in WD 108, so that would’ve been 1988.
Happy Sunday, wow, got two of my meme’s stuck in on one show 😉
Christ. Every card of that Space Marine Combat Cards deck Justin pulled it was like “had that, had that, lord I feel old…”
Fear not Owen! Those brightly coloured shirts of yours fool us all 😉
Haha, I feel your pain brother! I actually paused the video part way and dug around for my own hair-metal noise marine! He’s sitting on my painting table now and will be recieving a paint stripping and a new coat of leopard print in the next couple of weeks 🙂
The deeper bases are based on the CMoN/MicroArts KS base inserts. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/coolminiornot/coolminiornot-base-system-featuring-micro-art-stud
These are also fantastic for other basing effects…
Ah yes – the $25 shipping for my $22 pledge system that thankfully refunded my pledge. Beware Shipping added afterwards projects.
I believe I am currently one that has more games then I have time to play. I do find myself looking back at mass battle games, because of the sweeping landscape of troops. I love my skirmish games, but my heart will always truly belong large armies.
Amen about the big games, @stvitusdancern . If there aren’t at least 200 people on the table (represented one way or another), it almost doesn’t feel like a game. 😀
I agree on the point of not trying to do everything perfectly. Currently I’m running 11 wargaming projects all which are moving slowly but steadily forward because I choose to do certain projects in a quick and efficient way whereas I do others with alot of attention to detail. That way I get fun from gaming with painted mini’s and fun from having done a difficult, detailed paintjob. I guess it’s all a matter of organisation 🙂
the games workshop combat cards are on page157 of the blue citadel miniatures catalogue ( my copy is dated 1991)……six sets ….chaos….monsters…..warriors…..goblinoids……dwarfs….spacemarines …….hope this helps
Any Company running a kickstarter that has based its needed funding target purely for the game/product and is expecting over funding to go towards other back projects will go under purely on bad management not to any degree of a crash or over saturation.
A Kickstarter is exactly that a Kick Start for beginnings, as for the Coolminiornot comment, this is the reason GW doesn’t go to kickstarter, the returns for the kickstarter probably wouldn’t be worth it when taking long term goals and practices into consideration. There will be a time that certain companies will become too big for a Kickstarter, Coolminiornot and other companies will need to make up their own mind if they fit into this category.
Also an interesting thing for saturation. The feeling I’m getting from forums. A lot to people are making their very 1st buys into this hobby through kickstarter. I feel the ‘Theme’ saturation might happen before a total game saturation. For example WildWest Exodus has capt on the Wild West theme, and this will be hindered any other company starting a kickstarter skirmish game based on Wild West. I’m already starting to notice certain Kickstarters that are similar to certain games failing to fund were are very unique IP such as Conan Game are for a lot of people, 1st time buy in to the hobby.
Personally being from New Zealand Kickstarter has been a Godsend.
Keep up the great work
Vez
Sorry couldn’t disagree more, I don’t think there is such a thing as too big for kickstarter. GW don’t do it because they are already established, they could if they really wanted to. Change for GW comes at a glacial pace.
The danger as Warren points out is that if the projects only simply fund there is nothing in the pot for building the infrastructure to support and expand these projects further. These games become less about the hobby and more about entertainment for a couple of weekends and then on to something else entirely. The hobbyists would be slowly pushed out of the picture as they stop bothering because they want something that they will build on for years. The games will become increasingly short term to fit the new market. Then when the wind shifts and fantasy/sci-fi/comic superhero expereinces an inevitable downturn in popularity the short termers will move on and these companies will already have lost the hobbyists. That will be the bust…unless the industry takes care.
This has happened before, we all know it has. Just in the previous bust it was only really GW on the scene, but we lost almost all of the specialist games during that period.
I think GW could certainly crowdfund and probably get a lot out of it, but they don’t need KS to do it. They could just run it themselves and not pay KS and Amazon 8% of what they raise nor have to abide by their regulations.
@devious76
Quote
“GW don’t do it because they are already established, they could if they really wanted to. Change for GW comes at a glacial pace”
Thats what I said
“There will be a time that certain companies will become too big for a Kickstarter, Coolminiornot and other companies will need to make up their own mind if they fit into this category”
It will be up to the Company themselves to decided if its too big (AKA established) for Kickstarter.
I could give a very long reply to this video but I doubt anyone comes to the comments section to read walloftext so I’ll restrict myself to saying that as of Q4 2014, ICv2 puts three of the top five selling North American minis games as X-Wing, Star Trek Attack Wing, and D&D Attack Wing. The three games which have been displaced from the top five over the last couple of years to make way for them have been Warhammer Fantasy, Hordes, and Malifaux. We might already be at the end of the era of the skirmish game and at the start of the collectable pre-paint era. By far the biggest earners in tabletop gaming are ccgs, and other collectible games (your Dicemasters and Heroclix and whatnot) also bring in a lot of coin.
That said, outside of WFB (especially) and 40K there’s no reason to think that trad minis games are selling less. Malifaux and Hordes probably haven’t experienced a decline, and the overall year-on-year rise at retail would back that up, it’s just that the format of X-Wing and Attack Wing means a new consumer group is spending money on those games. Anyone who got through my survey of gaming stores in my region would see that X-Wing is ubiquitous. Every store outside of a GW or ccg-only store carries it and most of those run tournaments. Venues that couldn’t run tournaments for other minis games run X-Wing tournaments.
Finally, I’m sure most of the gamers who have been playing mass battle historicals for decades have gamed serenely on during that time whilst a horde of sci-fi/fantasy gamers have drifted in and out of GW, many of whom leave a pile of unassembled or unpainted armies as they go. GW’s dirty secret has always been that they build their revenues on sales of minis they know will either never be built, never be gamed, or only hit the table a few times. The army book/codex format and release schedule was purposely designed to catch that gamer ADD and milk as much money from each customer as they could before that customer’s bubble burst and they quit. KS and skirmish games haven’t created a new problem, they recast the existing one into a new context.
Great Post, good insight into the trends in todays market. I also think that the many players who enjoy the repainted will inevitable include a smaller subset who will get bored of the pre paint format and get pulled into the broader hobby.
Mmm – I helped run a TT demo day at my FLGS who’s stepping up from mail-order startup. GW ius literally 2 mins walk away and at the moment his main audience are GWers looking for a bit of discount and the off-the-shelf gamer/collectors of Magic they Gathering and… X-Wing. These two systems provide the ‘crack’ users that keeps on wanting for him.
The day was slow and several of his regular crack customers stopped by, intrigued by the nicely painted minis etc ( mostly the Warcor’s) but as soon as they saw the raw metal bagged up product were out of their comfort zone. Even the current GWers looked suspiciously at the metal like it was something alien. Boy is this hobby diverse!
Happy sunday!
You nailed it down once again @redben 🙂 I’ve seen and was in the first Wizkids clicks games wave. The big thing with X-Wing is it’s massive and popular ip. Everybody knows Star Wars. Fantasy Flight just made a brilliant decision to combine tree factors – a already very good game, cool models and a setting known by almost everyone.
Another great Sunday! Thanks for brightening up my weekends guys.
Really enjoyed the musing on the direction off the industry and it raised a couple of issues for me. We see a challenge to the established companies as reflected in GW having to finally respond to changes in market expectations. However, as Warren mentions, GW as a large corporate is driven by the accountants and so the change isn’t necessarily one based upon gaming innovation and as such might not reverse the decline in sales for Warhammer Fantasy.
When markets move to saturation there inevitable results a drive towards the lowest common denominator (Often Cost) which I’d suggest doesn’t support creativity. Link this to less brand loyalty through sheer volume and companies are unable to develop large enough communities to sustain long term businesses. So whilst we don’t know where we will end up at this point I think the increased reach of our bobby will result eventually in a number of the independent companies folding others will merge. As a process its possible to read this as a necessary and a survival of the fittest kind of struggle, this simple is not the case it will ultimately be a battle of the better companies which again doesn’t guarantee the best games being the victors.
Warren also talks about disruptive technology and this doesn’t even always come from expected sources. In my own gaming life the truly disruptive tech was Magic The Gathering. At the time I was DM a 2ed D&D campaign a three year campaign 14 high level PCs each with henchmen followers not forgetting magically raised minions where a round of combat could take 2 plus hours. Within a matter of weeks the dice had ben replaced by cards as little prep was required and we could be up and running and not waiting for a key player to turn up (as you can imagine with 14 PC this happened every session!).
Happy Sunday and see you Friday.
Great discussion. It does very much feel like there is a bubble of skirmish games which could burst any time. As Kickstarter throws more and more games into the mix, you can see the ones that make a few hundred thousands dollars and are backed by a four figure number of people. I can’t help thinking if some of those backers will ever meet another soul who also owns that game.
When the bubble bursts, I think we’ll see a period of consolidation. I doubt many of the games currently the new in thing will be around in 10 years time, but some will have become established and people will naturally gravitate towards the ones that most people play.
In the end a good IP is key for people wanting to invest their time, their cash and, most importantly, their imaginations into a particular game. That’s the reason why 40k is still around, or at least a very big part of the reason.
Regarding time and how much you are willing to invest in an army, it’s great that our hobby is so diverse. There are the people who buy a massive plastic horde and may never get beyond base coating it and the people who flit from one skirmish game to the next, owning a dozen miniatures for each of a dozen game. Nobody is doing it wrong. Then there are the people like me, who spend up to 2 months working on a single miniature, converting, sculpting and meticulously painting to create something which is uniquely theirs. There’s room for all of these people in the hobby.
Warren, here’s a quick thought – maybe the disposable games can be beneficial to us gamers.
I have rarely (if ever) managed to get my ‘normal’ friends to join me in my wargaming/boardgaming hobby. Yet Xwing, has attracted a few of them to an occasional Fri/Sat evening, dining table game. So, I’ve increase my gametime and share my company with more people – win,win.
I agree XWing has a huge, recognisable attraction – but if future types of these products can influence players from outside our usual community to join us playing (as they’re not required to invest heavily as we have/do) – would our hobby benefit?
I don’t think there’s any “maybe” about it. As @erastus says, there’s no right or wrong way to do the hobby, and the more people join in the better it is for all of us.
I think X-Wing combines lots of factors mass recognition, low cost entry, strong IP which enables this to cross over into mainstream retail. Over the years I’ve introduced lots of people to tabletop and RPGs as a hobby and only a small minority become life long gamers but it does show that these games can be gateway games.
That is absolutely true. You can see X-Wing as a gateway to other miniature games, but it wouldn’t do this for everyone.
to me a skirmish game is a section (10 men) level or lower, a contact level game is up to platoon level (40 men) an engagement level game would be company size then battalion level game and up would be a mass battle.
Skirmish and mass battle describe different types of combat rather than numbers involved. A mass battle usually takes place in a defined space and time and often involves large numbers of troops fighting in formation. A skirmish is a more ad hoc engagement and a mass battle can encompass skirmishes within it. A good rule of thumb on the tabletop to distinguish between the two is can each individual mini represent one man and the game still be a realistic simulation of the conflict. If it can, you’re probably in a skirmish, if it can’t, you’re probably in a mass battle. Most of the games we’ve come to call skirmish games are skirmish games, but they’re only one type of skirmish game.
I don’t disagree with you, I was trying to make the argument that model count size could be broken down into types, lets not forget that some big battles started off as a small skirmish. as an example The Battle of Gettysburg.
Many mass battles do. As I say, mass battles can encompass skirmishes, but they are conceptually different and it isn’t related to numbers (the difference in numbers being a side effect of the concept rather than the concept itself).
as I said I don’t disagree, but if you are trying to game with a mini count a scale of numbers could be defined. As an example in a game of bolt action, the players say to each other ‘lets have a skirmish game’, and bring on to the table 10 minis each, after the game they want to escalate it up up, all well and good so they then have a meeting engagement, ‘wow’ they say ‘this is epic’, they then turn to flames of war to have a mass battle.
Where to begin… Let me just checkout how my KS projects are doing first 😉
Right – still not sure about WWExodus. Why? Because it’s a new system and I already have a few which are my main hobby; namely Infinity and Flames of War. My 28mm ‘skirmish’ and my 15mm batt… ‘larger skirmish’.
Now apart from those I have a large collection of boardgames, many with a small-step (thanks Justin) that can be pulled out with a casual group, played then put back in the box. Blood rage looks like one of those which just so happens to have gorgeous minis. RotK, Recon and Conan are probably medium steps with Myth a large step but they’re all ‘boxed games’. RotK/Bushido and Recon (especially how I’ve pledged) are also skirmish systems I expect to play occasionally. A new TT system’s got to be special to break through; scale it back, put it in a box, give it good gameplay, gorgeous minis and make it accessible and maybe I’ll bite.
Comparison with the Video game industry is interesting. We’re already seeing similar consolidation activity, whether it be the publisher/studio model (e.g. Asmodee inc FFG) or alliances of small companies (e.g. Steamforged~Guildball~Infamy) both models seeking to deal with those beyond KS issues of marketing, manufacturing and distribution. I think we’ll only see more. Does that make GW the EA of our industry?
Did I forget Guildball KS incoming soon. That’s my ‘sports game’ – in a big box.
I should say that building and painting is what I enjoy, I can disappear to my cave, put on some music and relax. The fact I get to play with some of these either at home, around at some friends or down the club is also an excellent excuse to show my handiwork off, but sometimes the minis are mainly for painting.
Me too! Building and painting are the two things that kept me in the hobby over the past decades 🙂 To have the gaming aspect on top is just the last bit that makes our hobby so exciting, which is even better if it’s with a bunch of friends.
Regarding your rescue team Warren, where did you get the vehicles from?, also the miniatures are looking fantastic,
Happy Sunday!
Point on having ‘perfection anxiety’ was well made. I have a high elf army that I have been working on for 15 years now… I think the key might be to try and start small and ‘slow grow’ armies when getting in to a game/army for the first time. I have a few armies that I got tabletop ready with the intention of going back to ‘finish’ alter. I’ll post if i ever get round to it 😛
Happy Sunday all, and good luck with the DZC boot camp!!
A good primer, maybe an airbrushed base ( a la John’s Blood Angel) a wash and a few picked out highlights is all you need sometimes for the grey wall – my approach to my Myth mountain anyway.
Per Chance I did post a comment under the WWX week thread yesterday making a similar point regarding the painting of minis. In short: As a beginner in painting I would love to see some painting basics for those weeks…quick look at color composition and an easy 3 Color paintscheme for basetroops…or something like that. Nothing against Romains tutorials…they are great…but you Need some skill already to follow them.
Perhaps you should take a look at GW’s painting tutorials. They are aimed at beginners and show how you can get a good tabletop standard finish using a few basic techniques.
@soulsorcerer, best thing is have a look around on the web. With regard to colour theory, can find plenty on that, or pick what works for you. Basic tips I would alway give are:
1) get 2-3 decent brushes – GW/army paint fine for a start avoid cheap synthetic bristles. Don’t get anything to fine, flow of paint and control are far better than trying any tiny brushes.
2) Get an old plate or tile – never paint from the pot.
3) Clean your mini up properly, making sure you wash it if resin – warm water and washing up liquid.
4) Use a decent primer – halfords is great, follow the instructions
5) Thin paints with water, want to be consistence of milk – so losing it opacity slightly near the edges when you draw it with a brush.
6) Using one or more layer build up a smooth coat on each area, be neat where areas meet.
Let areas dry before painting adjacent areas.
7) Optional: Apply a wash like Agrax earth or the army painter quick shade from pots. Not essential but give easy definition and shading if your starting out – select one to go with colours (ie not strong tones on yellows etc)
8) Highlight as/if required – if you want – plenty of searches on different types of highlighting – a good start is the layering system, or drybrushing for armour/fur..
9) Finish the whole mini, one area may look rubbish on its own – but works when all of the mini is together.
10) Do not be put off if not there at first, practice, practice, practice. Once you have done a couple post up and ask for guidance 🙂
@erastus‘ suggest of GW tutorials is a good one for basic principle, but they tend to be very tidied into that specific product and the GW paint system. Which doesn’t really cover mixing paints etc.
@dags Thanks a lot for the overview…sounds all quite easy and reasonable…will def try it that way…I think of “testing” the 2-3 basecolors with an armypainter qick shade on spare minis to see where that gets me…and than ofcause pratice,practice,practice.
But I am quite useless when it comes to “imagining” what colors will look good on a mini.
So take WWX week as an example…to make “test” minis to see what works for myself…or try and mix lots of colors in different quantetis to get to a color I think would look good…thats maybe the fun for an exp. painter…but for a beginner…or at least for me…that is a time consuming/frustrating step that puts me off quite a bit to get startet at all….so for someone like me…seeing the colors on the mini on screen and been told what the colors are is a great help. I dont aim to become an Angel Giraldez…I just want to play with decent painted minis in a way I can afford time wise 😉
@soulsorcerer will be good to see what you do 🙂 glad it seems helpful. As to colour selection its something that a lot struggle with. If you don’t want to do anything too original search the web for the models you painting and copy. Also if you thin paint and keep the detail clean, if you don’t like it a repaint should be no problem without stripping.
Give it a try and see how you go, once you get basics there are some on here that can probably advise as to short cuts. I am terrible for that stuff I paint at a glacial spped and take too many long break from it. Hit @warzan‘s breaking point though and now I want paint on models so dividing projects for ‘quick’ painting and some for a more lavish attention not that that will get anywhere near Angels fabulous standard
I had those Games Works Shop Cards
I remember having 4 sets, the 2 listed and also Eldar and guard
Gotta love a good skirmish game, but for me the point of these is “narrative” which some of the current crop of games seem to have missed out or tacked on like an after thought.
I’d be interested to know what others think?
I think skirmish games can be great for narrative, but equally they are great for competitive gaming too, probably better suited to it than mass battle gaming.
I like the diversity so collect arrange of scales and styles. The possible issue I have is that volume dilutes the potential player community so lots of days may well go the way of GW specialist games range. I do think in 5 years we will have a larger community and the number of games will of settled down some what.
I personally am have already reached the saturation point for new games. Other the last year or so I have picked up a lot of two player starter sets for various games, open fire, operation icestorm, assault on Normandy amongst others. In the majority of cases I have managed to get half way through painting them, had maybe one or two games not bought anything past the starter set before it ended up on a shelf replaced by the next one. Even the three or so games I have stuck with and bought more stuff for and invested time have reached the point where I need to really scale back on both the time and financial investment as sustaining them has started to impact other areas of my life. my monthly financial investment alone over the past year or so has probably quadrupled and not only is that unsustainable most of the stuff I bought has had little to no use, some still in boxes or been resold or thrown out because I don’t have the room for it all.
Where a year ago I would check out every new kick starter and get tempted to buy every new system I saw a good demo game of on Bow, Now I don’t look at kick starter and enjoy the demo game videos but think that looks fun but I cant get another games system, both wolsung and wwe are both games I was tempted to get but resisted buying.
So for my own personal circumstances warrens concerns are accurate there are now kickstarters and games that I am not supporting because my resources of time, money and interest have been stretched too thinly. Perhaps I am atypical but for me now the industry is growing far faster than I can support and as john mention in the video if find myself sticking more to my safety net games.
I don’t think you’re atypical, this is a pretty standard consumer cycle. The important thing is whether a new customer is going to step in and replace you. As long as that happens then things will maintain, if not then they’ll contract,
Certainly NOT atypical. Sounds remarkably familiar. I’m losing count of the KS projects I started backing but then dropped to a $1 when I realised that a lot of these games require others you know and play with prepared to buy in with you. The only way I’ll buy into a new system is when I can persuade others ast the club to buy in with me – that’s the hurdle WWExodus needs to get over.
However, sometimes a starter set can justify itself sat on the shelf made up, often with starter rules that means you want a quick game then you can, you can also demo it at the club etc. Eventually FoW took off at the club after a while and Open Fire gave others a way in, swapping 1/2 sets etc. The same’s happening with Infinity.
I’ve heard Ronnie Renton say a few times that KS is much better for big box games that you open up and play rather than wargames. That’s why their product line has moved in that direction since they began raising funds on KS.
Mass battles = 6mm
From Epic 40k to the modern Baccus 6mm historical.
It’s cheap, quick to paint, easy to store and looks amazing on the table.
Epic 40k gawd why did they ever stop making that (I know it probably didn’t make money) but my friend and I spend a hell of a lot of Saturday afternoons playing across the living room floor after kicking out the family, much to the dismay of my dad who would rather I was out playing football or kissing girls 😛 That game more than even warhammer fantasy battle got me into the wargaming side rather than just the pen and paper rpg’s I played a lot of at school.
@redben I think that what you said is the crux of warrens concerns, I got the impression that he doesn’t think the new customers are coming into the hobby quickly enough to replace the spending people like myself are scaling back on. Interesting times !
I agree, I think that’s what Warren was getting at too. At this point it’s pure speculation, though. Conan and Exploding Kittens suggests that there is still a market for tabletop games on KS. Blood Rage and WWX are doing quite nicely for themselves right now too. As I mentioned a little further up the page, I think the likes of Conan and Blood Rage will always find an audience on KS (as long as KS is still a thing that we do, it’ll inevitably be replaced by something else sooner or later). Boardgames don’t need lots of prep time before you can use the contents in the game, and they don’t need to be played all that often to feel like you’re getting your moneys worth. People for whom boardgaming is their primary gaming will usually have loads of different games crammed onto shelves. Focusing in on a small number of games is something that is somewhat peculiar to wargaming. In part because of the prep time to get the minis ready to game, and partly because GW dominated the market for so long.
Happy sunday!
So, 22yrs ago I ventured into the world of 40k, a few years later I picked up WHFB as well and those were my staples for maaaany years, with a small hiatus from the tabletop world about 10yrs ago playing WoW. In those early years I’d built up small armies but nothing really over 2k. It was FW;’s release of the Heresy series that brought me back into “40k” properly and in that time I’ve built 2 sizeable heresy armies (6k+ each) and a full space marine battle company for 40k (Minotaurs! – so @warzan, if you want any pointers just shout 🙂 ). I also ventured into historicals with Bolt Action a few years ago, and last year picked up the FoW starter set, so to say I have most large scale games covered is fair I think.
However, having built up these large armies, I now have no impetus to build more GW-scale armies. My biggest Bolt Action army is 1.5k and that’s plenty for me, and now this week I get the news that my AvP KS is imminently due, I’m wondering what scale I will take that to. so in the background I’ve been looking at skirmish scale games.
I have the X-Wing starter set and played a few games with that, and managed to get a few guys at the club involved too. I’m now looking at WWX with some temptation (damn you BoW! 😉 ) but again need to tempt a few others in. As a club, we went to the Overlord show last weekend and several of us picked up Relics. It’s a small investment and low model count game – perfect!
As for painting minis- I personally have a rule that if I haven’t painted the mini, it doesn’t go on the table. This is more to prevent me buying even more before I finish current projects (although the backlog is still there!). I prefer playing games with good looking armies rather than looking across the table at a wall of grey plastic, but that’s not to say I wouldn’t play against an unpainted army – I know one guy who changes his armies so often he doesnt bother painting them!
As I’ve mentioned before, I don’t do kickstarter, as i firmly believe in giving my local games store my business (since I’ve moved this is spirit games, burton on trent, great place to buy anything game related), and i am happy wait to get the stuff I like.
However, i think the key success of kickstarter in our industry is that it appeals to the collector far more than the outright gamer. There is a constant supply of new shiny, fantastic models to essentially pre-order, in a huge variety of styles and genres. I love painting minis (although I’m not especially good at it) and I do follow kickstarter for things I want to buy, and there are loads of them, so I can see why people pledge constantly.
Good examples are the new dragons dont share from Reaper that i’ll be buying next month when its available locally, and I’m looking foward to grabbing some of the fallen frontiers models when they appear, as there are some great ones in among it all, although I probably will just pick those I like rather than make an attempt to get into the game.
The key is though, will collectors run out of steam in backing these things if that really is the main makeup of the kickstarter audience? I’m not so sure. I’ve been collecting GW minis since 2nd edition 40K, I’ve bought far, far more than I’ll likely ever manage to paint in my lifetime if I’m honest, and I am not sure I am unusual.
Kickstarter just means collectors (and most of us have this behaviour in some form) now =are buying from many different companies rather than one or two as we used to, Rackham and GW being the main ones for a while.
The downside of this however, is that whilst the games may continue to fund on kickstarter, their longevity as a viable game system is not so certain unless they attract enough people to actually play with them.
i love skirmish games but i will always lean towards big battles as i think they just look so much more awesome on the table top and i tend to always increase my armies for instance Bolt Action i now have enough figs for over 2000pts even have enough for a third platoon and i am still increasing it he he 🙂
It was interesting listening to the discussion about markets and saturation and boom and bust.
I think one of the biggest changes in recent years is the springing up of a lot of new companies producing both figures and rules at the same time. Apart from maybe GW and Grenadier ( I am sure there were others) back in the 80’s figure companies didnt really bother with rulesets.
For me gaming is still quite cheap as for example I can play Dux Belleroum in 6, 10 or 15 mm on what is becoming standardized basing of either 60×30 for 6mm and 40×20 or a multiple of that ( 80×40, 40×40 etc) for 10 ans 15mm and only need say 8 or 9 ( 80×40) bases to play what is a good Dark Ages game.But I can also use them for several other rulesets like HC,Sword and Spear, DBA and FOG plus many others, and its the same with WW2 or any other historical or generic fantasy or SciFi game
So my investment nowadays is usually in new sets of rules rather than new figures all the time as what I have will do me for years without needing to do any sort of upgrading in basing etc
Though Blucher might change all that but I do have an idea of just using painted wooden blocks to depict units for that.
if mass battle dropped scale to 10mm or even 6mm it would be far more affordable and it would truly be mass battle
I game mostly in 6 and 10mm but mass battle can be any scale really just depends on your budget and playing area
To be patient and wait till some of the shiny Kickstarter stuff hits the shelf of your local store, is the one decision I made for myself. Ok, you won’t get all those miniatures from a first production line, but you’re more likely find fellow gamers to play with, the point they hit the shelf. In many cases some miniatures will never get into my hands, but out there are so many others that already exist and I’d love to paint some day. Some of which I already own and find from time to time in a box in my cellar 🙂
I have spent a lot of money on kickstarter and I would hate to think how little I have played some of the games. One example is mars attacks , I bought it and none of my friends were interested after playing it a couple times so now I just sold it in eBay and roughly made my kickstarter pledge back. I’ve been collecting the x wing models for a while but also have a good few hours of gaming with them under my belt and it really is a great way to introduce new people to tabletop gaming.
I like Xwing because it is easy to set up and easy to teach. Fantasy Flight has done a pretty good job of supporting the game and as result there are lots of options. They even went so far as writing rules for epic play to accommodate the really big ships. In all honesty I can’t see myself playing a game that scales the way 40k does. I personally like the idea of squad based miniature games like Infinity and MERCS. There are fewer models to paint as I don’t need as many. It is a very realistic possibility to have multiple armies for squad sized games. The boards tend to be smaller and sometimes result in needing less terrain.
To me Xwing is the perfect side second or third game. It isn’t lacking in depth but the rules are very plainly written. To me it isn’t a game you just walk away from but the fact that it is very pick up and play makes it a great game to keep around for when you just don’t have the time to play whatever game you play.
I play Shadowrun and while nothing really can fill the void that Shadowrun fills except Shadowrun, I like the idea of having a game that is lighter, easier and faster. I don’t always have time to play Shadowrun, and sessions can get really long in the tooth. So if I had a game that was kind of like Shadowrun but took less time to set up, play and tear down that would be great. My one friend is a big 40k player but right now with school, he doesn’t have time for 40k. However he does occasionally have time for a game of Star Trek Attack Wing. Some hobby is better than none at all i say.
Well to be honest I have been painting up my Skaven army for like 2 years now and still have not finished. That is why I am probably worried about the changes to Warhammer that are coming. I always thought that it will be a stable system but GW invested in 40k and killed WFB. Since I do not have much time to paint (and I only play with painted models) I needed something more skirmish/less model count. I got into Warmachine and I am happily playing the game buing one model at a time if I need too. I got the N3 book because of the hype that you dear BOW had caused here but apart from the one mini that I got with the preorder I did not have the will so far to buy more. I also have a BOLT Action starter kit waiting to be painted…. Do I need Kickstarter? No. Do companies need it? Yes.
@yavasa – Do I need Kickstarter? No. Do companies need it? Yes.
And there you have it, folks. The whole KS debate wrapped up. Well said, sir! I hope you find time to get that Bolt Action set painted and on the table someday.
Thanks @oriskany I plan to paint BOLT this year if time allows.
I do feel the pressure of Kickstarter fatigue already. And I’m fairly new to backing Kickstarter projects. Sure, there are still projects I’m interested in. But then I think to myself “Can I afford this financially? Yes, perhaps I can if I go for this one instead of that one.” And then I’m wondering if I should get in at all or better save/spend the cash on something completely different.
Then comes the question “Do I have enough time to give this new game the time and effort it deserves?” And the answer is “Definitely not! Look at the pile of plastic and metal you still have sitting there. Some of it isn’t even built yet!”
Regarding scale, smaller games are more seductive and easier to get into, both financially and timewise. Even when I started the hobby and there was only GW I found Mordheim to be a lot more enjoyable than Warhammer Fantasy. Building large armies just becomes a chore after a while. I have collected several different forces, but none of them is completely painted up. There’s always the next distraction.
The impact of WoW on my hobby I’ve experiences firsthand. I started playing Guildwars, which launched about a month prior to WoW. I told my gaming friends about this great original game, but they wouldn’t have any of it. They were investing their time in WoW, which was built on an IP they already knew. So most of my Guildwars time was spent alone or playing with strangers. I still went to the gaming club each Sunday to have a game of Warhammer or to do some painting. But there was a noticable drop in attendance. Many members who also used to show up every week were now doing raids on their free Sunday afternoon. That together with the memberbase getting older (distracted by girlfriends, study or work) eventually caused the collapse of the club.
I guess industries wax and wane, or transform over time. Some people stick around while others find a new passtime. I can imagine being a business owner in this industry is a risk. It’s hard to guess which direction the industry will move in. One new trend can change it all. You have to be very alert and adaptable to survive.
Great discussion chaps, and obviously very prescient given the amount of peope engaging in the resultant debate. You’ve touched on issues I’ve been grappling myself with recently.
I think I can echo many of the sentiments expressed above with regard to KS. I would consider myself to be among those spending quite a lot out on these things in the past (went for Dreadball and Kingdom Death big time and quite a few others to a considerabe degree too) and I dread to think about the cost-to-use analysis. I’m sitting on a mountain of resin and plastic like some hobby Smaug and I’m not really doing anything with it other than gradually chipping away at a mountain that has until now only got bigger and quite frankly more intimidating.
Very recently I realised enough was enough. Yes the deals were amazing, and to be involved in the dev process fantastic, but do I really need another box of hundreds (or at least dozens) of minis however lovely they are? I’ve resolved to scale back my collection and refocus on more feasible hobby aims (and that includes the systems I buy into).
I’m lucky enough to be going to the DZ Boot camp next weekend, so knowing I’m set to play the game has led to some real progress in the last few weeks as I prepare and practise with a scheme by purchasing, building and painting a few bits. This is nigh on unheard of for me, but with necessity being the mother of invention I’ve cracked on as I know I’m going to play with them, and for me this is key.
I think I’ve turned a corner with my whole attitude to KS and my hobby in general as I transition from a collector and hobbyist to someone who actually plays. Much as I love the diversity on offer I think I need to nail my colours to the mast and double down on some core sysyems for this year.
Food for thought indeed gents…thank you!
I think theres few main blocks in the hobby One about skirmish level games, other a ateo furgher and finally big battles, skirmish Will be like infinity, in her majesty name, ronin, euphoria, Carnevale, dead mans hand and many many others that are played maybe with a count of less than 20-22 models per side, next step will be like mini armies, Kings of war, 40k, flames, planetfall, dropzone and others even fantasy somehow counting your force thoward less than 150 models and then Will came the big batle games mainly on the historical ranges blak powder, hail caesar, picke and shote, napoleon at war, impetus… Where your counting over the 150 minis per side.
I don’t think there is enough being done by these company’s to bring in new players, most people start gaming through GW. There isn’t much trying to pull younger players in who can get there friends in too. I’ve only heard of all these games through BoW. I didn’t particularly enjoy my 1st game of 40k which really put me off playing it. If I didn’t join this BoW site I probably would have lost interest in gaming as I don’t have any mates that play. Without the games workshop shops would there really be as many people into war gaming? I don’t think so
These companies need to try and get out of there comfort zone of getting the interest of people that play other games and try and reach out to people that haven’t heard of all these games and don’t know much or anything about this community. This is just my thoughts I don’t know if I’m right or wrong by saying this
As a writer of skirmish games (the In Her Majesty’s Name series) I am hoping that most gamers will continue to enjoy a range of game scales, i.e. mass battle, small unit action and skirmish.
What I find a little depressing about the current avalanche of Kickstarter’s is that each game seems to be tied to a range of exclusive miniatures and linked accessories like terrain. Even to the extent that they make the figures in an unconventional scale which limits their usefulness for any other game. They try to hold onto the players attention (and wallet) like grim death. I actually blame Games Workshop for this business model.
There is also the trend to go with a licence for a popular film/TV/comic series, which I believe limits player creativity. For example, as exciting as Batman may be, where can you put your own original spin on this already fully developed world and cast of characters?
I prefer to write and play games that not only allows but also encourages players to create their own content in addition to that which is provided, and that doesn’t lock them into a franchise.
After all, this is (or should I now be saying was?) a creative hobby. I do not want it to become dominated by plug & play offerings with no use beyond its own self-limited boundaries.
Nothing to do with the discussion but had to add that I do like playing Forge of War and FUBAR
Now on with the thread……
Thank you Torros 🙂
It’s fine to have your preferences of what you like about the hobby, but projecting them out and judging what others do based upon your preferences is a bit unfair. Leaving aside the fact that Batman was never on KS, I’m willing to bet the large majority of minis-games funded on KS aren’t licensed games. Even if they were, so what? If that’s what people like then that’s what they like. It might not be what you like, but that doesn’t mean it’s wrong.
Ultimately, people buy what they want, and companies sell to the demand. The most successful minis games on the market today tend to be ones where the minis and rules are made by the same company. This has nothing to do with KS as it applies to 40K, Warmachine, Infinity, Malifaux, X-Wing, Dropzone Commander, and WFB are all examples of successful games which were not funded on KS. People don’t play these because they’re forced to, or because they lack imagination, they do it because they like the experience of playing in a specific setting with specific minis. You might not like it, but that’s okay.
And there’s me thinking I was offering up my own opinion in reaction to the opinions of others Redben? Is that not what a comments section or forum is for?
Where did I actually say that business model adopted by many large and popular manufacturers was wrong? What I said was that I found them depressing and that I felt they limited player creativity.
Also, I did not conflate Batman with my comments on Kickstarter, but as a separate issue.
I happen not to like being limited by a particular manufacturer’s combined rules and figures offering, and the reaction we have had to IHMN’s more generic and open approach would indicate that I am not alone, even if I am part of only a small minority.
I come from a generation where we never had the sheer range of games and mini’s that we have now. We had to make do with or convert that which was available, which led to it being a very creative hobby. Warren made some very good points in today’s XLBS regarding the new generation of games with preassembled and prepainted models becoming increasingly ‘disposable’ which chimed with my own concerns.
A lot of our early Rogue Trader games used Lazerburn figures as we had tons and tons of them
There was no clear demarcation sign-posted that the licensed game discussion was separate from the KS discussion. Your parting “After all, this is (or should I now be saying was?) a creative hobby” following on from everything that preceded is a clear judgement on the two areas you highlight (rules & minis designed for each other and licensed games) and whether intended or not carries a consequential negative judgement on those who prefer to game in this way. It very easy to be creative whilst playing the Batman Miniatures Game, a quick perusal of these here forums will demonstrate that.
I’ll chime in with grabnutz. Games that exist within an IP almost have a built in audience, if you liked batman or star wars before you discovered wargaming then chances are nothing will change. With the miniatures being so locked into that IP there is little chance we can use them for other games, and the games with their own scaled miniatures are doomed to be relics once interest has flicked to the next thing and people realize there are no players around (much like GW’s Inquisitor game).
If it were possible I would pour all my creative energy into gaming at the 28mm scale with low model count in the 40k universe. It takes creative effort to do that, but at the same time I appreciate having distractions like x-wing that take minimum effort but has provided many good games so far. Even while these things exist it has never been a better time to get third party bits and fuel for the creative side of the hobby. And there are still plenty of kickstarter games which dual purpose themselves for more creative folks. As in all other areas of life (hollywood for example) we just see a lot more ‘recycled’ content than raw creative/DIY content.
The combat cards you were referring to ‘as looking earlier’, were the second series cards, the first pack you had were the original cards.
The first mention of the combat cards in a White Dwarf, was 106, October 1988, page 8 Mail Order, due for Autumn release. They then appeared in 107 to 109 inclusive, marked as a Winter release, still in their Mail Order pages. In 110 to 112 inclusive, marked as a Spring release. No mention in WD113! In WD 114, June 1989, there was an article titled ‘Attack!’ A game for Citadel Combat Cards, using a chess board, plastic bases (as used in Talisman) or plasticine! It was not until WD 121, January 1990, that there appeared an advert in the GW Mail Order section, Warriors, Spacewar, Goblinoids, Monsters, Chaos, and Dwarfs, each pack of 35 cards and £1.50p each pack. Therefore, from initial advert to being available via mail order, some 15 months!
So, for those of you who get heated at delayed deliveries post Fund Raising campaigns, this is nothing new ; )
I purchased them sometime in the early ’90’s, when my kids were younger, they are 35, 34, 33 and 31 now! Happy hours spent with these.
I’ve just came out of 40k after 4 pretty intense years of pruchasing and playing. Mainly I got sick of having to buy new rule books within such a short space of time. Also with mass battles games, if u don’t keep on top of the latest big shinny models that come out for your army (at £70 a pop) you find yourself losing more games than u win. I wasted so many hours over the past few years in life sucking apocalypse battles. Moving on now to xwing and batman.
Really fascinating discussion guys!
As @phalanx58 says, the space Marine combat cards you have are the second generation, featuring minis from the mid 90s. A lot of them came out around the time I was getting into the GW hobby.
I’ve got the original space marine combat cards, which are formatted exactly like the set you were looking at last week @warzan. The minis are all named, the only plastic figures are some of the original RTBO1s, and there are a lot of very oddly proportioned (if very characterful) marines from the 80s, all with hilarious names.
As for the Kickstarter debate and saturation, I’m definitely one of those people who has spent a lot backing multiple projects and got little to no use out of many of them. On the one hand, this isn’t so different to what has always happened with GW: you end up sitting on boxes of figures you don’t have time to do anything with. The danger to the industry is that wheras with GW it didn’t matter so much (there was always someone to sell it to, and the game was always going to be there for you to return to at some point in the future), now each pile of boxes represents your entire investment in that company or game. Meaning that a decision to get rid of it is a decision to stop being a customer of that company completely.
This becomes even more likely given that these smaller, newer skirmish games don’t have large player bases, so having even one player (or collector) stop their involvement could be enough to kill off any chance of that game taking off in any given town.
On the other hand, the ‘disposable’ nature of many of these games is what enables people to take the plunge in the first place.
I suspect that it’ll be mid-size games that are in the greatest danger in future. The large ones with established player bases can probably cope with downturns. The small ones have low overheads and probably don’t employ many or any people for whom the industry is their primary source of income, so if a Kickstarter flops, they just carry on with what they were doing, releasing figures as and when they can. It’s the mid-size companies who are relying on bringing in considerable sums of money that are probably in most danger of an exodus of players saying goodbye to boxes of minis they’ve never used and to a games system that they can’t find opponents for.
@angelic despot was about to say same about combat cards got the original marine ones somewhere with the old rtb01 era marines.
Slightly akin to the topics covered on this Weekender XLBS:
As my OCD kicked in (took over!) whilst watching this episode, I couldn’t help searching out all my old WD’s, as my previous comment attests to! Thumbing through them, my eyes were drawn to an article in WD 130, October 1990, Chivalry a Card moderated combat for battling knights! by Dave Andrews, Alan & Mike Perry (remember these two?) and Nigel Stillman.
Google-ing the topic, I came across this site http://realmofchaos80s.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/chivalry.html
Also, in the same magazine: Confrontation – An introduction to the new skirmish wargame set in the 41st milennium, describing Necromunda!!! I wonder what happened to these???
I’ll now get to the point of this comment, these have whetted my appetite for having a go at some ‘nostalgic’ gaming, warts and all!
What does anyone else think?
Sounds like you need to break out the Marines with Shuriken catapults, D Cannons and Vortex grenades
I’ve cut things down a lot.
My “Main” game is of course going to be my own DIY one, Primeval Abyssian.
I have a lot of 40k stuff over the years, but I’ve cut it down to my Necrons cos I love mah Death-Robots.
Will be doing an japanese samurai army that has a few fantasy elements that can be taken out so it can be a duel historical/fantasy army too.
Would love to find a mass battle (6mm/10mm) game too, but feel I’ll probably have to end up DIYing that too.
What period?
That Primeval Abyssian is an awesome project, @abstractalien . A lot of people have these DIY projects, lord knows I churned up a few (to varying degrees of success). Very few are ever as completely conceptualized or supported as this one. You’ve even got your own minis! And lots of people have a map of their “world” or “universe.” You literally created and mapped a UNIVERSE. Great job, man (and this comes from a guy who doesn’t usually get into high sci-fi).
http://www.beastsofwar.com/groups/painting/forum/topic/primeval-abyssian-my-diy-sf-extra-dimensional-wargame/
Thankyou sir, it makes me very happy that someone out there appreciates what i do. Really helps my confidence, thanks!
One of my all time favourite skirmish games is 1-48 tactics, a WW2 skirmish game. This game can be played with as few as 4 figures per side. I enjoy it because if you are short on time it can be quickly set up and played out within 20 – 30 minutes. If you want to play for 2-3 hours you just add more figures. With as few as 8-12 figures per side it can last 2 hours or more. The game feels like a WW2 skirmish and is extremely tactical and produces realistic results as well as requiring realistic tactics to win.
Skirmish games do take less time involvement regarding painting and finance. As they can be played on smaller tables there is also less financial commitment to buying, building and painting terrain. Does this make me less committed to the game? In this case definitely not. I just love this game and am actively looking for suitable buildings and will purchase every miniature when it comes out.
Skirmish games are great for those of us with busy schedules, less available finances and limited space. They can be a good introduction to the hobby and if particularly good they will draw a player into further commitment, Mass army games for me are great but I do not have the time necessary to build and paint a mass army – by the time I had a suitable army painted the game would have moved beyond where I am at.
Awesome seeing those old GW gaming cards. They were my Eavy Metal quick reference guides (I still miss the days of Slaanesh being all about vivid colours, animal prints and hues that would make a Harlequin spew).
Books wise @warzan , Last Chancers is ok (nice take on the Dirty Dozen but not brilliantly written imho). I would highly recommend the Dan Abnett Gaunts Ghosts range which is about an elite Guard unit who have fantastic strategic tactics for small forces getting the job done (think Sharpe meets Ultimate Force).
As for painting levels these days I cannot fault the X-Wing paint jobs. I honestly wouldn’t have the inclination to repaint them at all myself. And in this age of Kickstarter buying I am finding myself reserving my best paint jobs for the skirmish games now (Warmachine, Relics, Guildball, Warhammer Quest etc) and I’m happier sticking to the faces and bases focus on the large armies. I am also moving to the old trick of front rank troops being nicely painted and those that get removed first from the back being less so finely done. Focus on the characters and banners and that’s enough I feel.
This is unless you stick with one or two games. I would love to be one of those focussed enough to be JUST FoW or Bolt Action then have beautifully cammo’d and weathered armies.
My local gaming club has the best approach imho. Escalation campaigns. Tournaments based around the latest games (ie. Wrath of Kings) and you start with a very small starter force for the 1st tournament. Then the points increase for the next game. This is basically Tale of 4 Gamers plus tournament.
And finally in Justin’s defence I don’t think Warren and John were clear or certain about their Kickstarter/hobby concerns. I have seen Kickstarter bring local sculptors and painters to the forefront where in the past they wouldn’t have had the backing due to the investors (banks) being muggles. With the popular IP games (X-Wing, D&D, Attack Wing) these will be the disposable entry point games into the rest of the model industry. But I don’t believe that pre-painted will spread past these IP’s.
As for longevity of video games it is ALL about online play now. Single player mode is often sacrificed to focus on online multiplayer. Which is the aspect that keeps our hobby alive. The social multiplayer aspect.
Interesting discussion on gaming saturation. Personally I am at the saturation limit and want to focus on getting stuff painted for and us what I have. My last addition will be guildball – which I felt was sufficiently different to provide something new. I would never want to go down to less systems as I enjoy the differences and each scratches a different itch. Anything new has to provide that new feel, which is a shame as there fantastic projects out there at present.
I am also at the point where having played largely unpainted for years I now want to get armies painted. I say armies as my preference is for mass battle (My definition would be if models all move separately it what I would call a skirmish, if they move as unit this would be that middle category of battle game, and finally WFB being a mass battle game). Some projects I still want to be ‘painting projects’ other more about paint on plastic.
Great talk about KS. you got most of what i felt so far.
First Rule : I have tons to paint and KIngdom Death will be here during this year… so, not buying anything more until i paint and play with everything i have so far.
Second Rule : Can’t have more than 5 wargames ( board self-contained games won’t count ). Now i have Kings of War, Warmahordes, Relic Knights, Deadzone-Warpath ( is one game since i can use the same miniatures ), Dreadball ( it counts for me as wargame since you have an army that you have to collect, paint and learn to play ) and i’m sort of building up a 40k army… but i need to see what i do with that. So i pass my limit already. Probably sell the one that i’m least playing at some point.
Third Rule : No more new kickstarters, there are tons… TONS of games out there that already are well establish and put money into already a new IP will only make all the others die out… we will see all of them crumble in the next year or so. So i’ll keep investing in Mantic stuff when i see something really shinny ( plastic sprues please! ), Relic Knights my be my second love alongs with Warmahordes… and i see if 40k can enter into my life or it will only be in the videogame world ( I never liked the rules, if it where more warmahordes-like i would definetely jump to it instantly ! ).
I like have several different smaller games as to a large battle style game. The different mechanics of multiple games can break up the monotony of playing the same game (although different missions) over and over. It would be like playing the same video game over and over without being able to change out the game. At current I play 8 different games all with different mechanics. I enjoy the variety it all offers
Lots of really good games out now. It is tricky to balance with so many choices. I would love to play different games every session, but without a big group of people buying these things, there is too much investment for most of us to do that. Also storage space becomes a real issue, really quickly.
However, when I got back into gaming I thought I’d get myself a decent sized W40k force. That has largely gone by the wayside in favour of half a dozen squirmish/board games.
I recently bought Battlefoam’s 720 case, and my plan is to have all the models required for ten or more different games, with enough for both sides and options if able. There’s so many games that I love, and many more I want to start. The downside is that I generally have to supply both sides and not many people are as willing to invest in so many games. But for me, varierty is the spice of life (in this hobby at least, I’m a picky eater =P). With a board game, you only play it a few times a year, and generally get bored of it after so many goes. With wargames it’s different, I switch between them, but never get bored, especially since I can expand any one of them as and when I see fit.
I’ve backed quite a lot of kickstarters, but I’ve ignored it lately. As much as I want to back Wild West Exodus, I’d rather start now or wait and invest when the kickstarter models are released. I kinda liked knowing that even if I’m too poor to afford the hobby in a year’s time, I’d have three or four games to look forward to (still got Kingdom Death and Guildball to go). But now I have a “local” store to support, I prefer to invest in that and live in the now rather than throwing money at something I might not want when it arrives.
The point on painting anxiety is one I’m all too familar with. I haven’t painted in 9 years, and have a real anxiety when it comes to potentially ruining something I’ve spent good money on. I’m not a fan of stripping paint either. I’m pretty determined to paint at the dropzone boot camp, which shouldn’t be too difficult, and I think it’ll be Rivet Wars after that.
I definitely agree that the player base isn’t growing fast enough. Regarding the likes of X-Wing, it was a thorn in my side for awhile, as I had all these games I wanted to play, but all everyone else wanted to play was X-Wing (though some prefered Attack Wing). I got bored of it very quickly, and I think others will too once the releases dry up, and then it’ll be like any board game.
And board games seem to be what’s really expanding the industry, considering how CMON focusses on them, whilst ensuring they have proper miniatures. Zombiecide has likely brought a few new gamers into the fold, but I think Kingdom Death will be better for the industry if it manages to get broad appeal, specifically because you have to build the models and that is one of the key stumbling blocks that needs to be addressed without completely doing away with.
I’ve moved towards skirmish games simply because of time and space. I don’t have the time to and paint large armies these days. Plus I like rules sets where I can use minis from any manufacter, beng limited to a purpose set of minis I find a little boring. I don’t like my warbands or armies to look exactly like the opposing players army, with the only real difference being our paint schemes. Cost has also played apart in the decision to scale down in model count as well.
In regards to the industry being saturated, I think there is a far greater choice and in some ways this is both good and bad. When I first started in the hobby way back in he 80’s you were limited to small number of games, this did mean it was easier to find other gamers playing you choice of system, something that has become a little difficult. I use to play Helldorado but since moving its not played near me, so I’m in the process of getting another faction so I can demos and tempt some new players. The big question is which and how many of these skirmish games will survive long term.
How many models do we really need ?
Well, I only need the beautiful ones. You can keep the rest ! 🙂
They are all beautiful, each and every one
Great show as usual, I’m glad you like the cards 🙂
happy Sunday night
On over saturation, it reminds me of the flood of new MMOs that flooded the market after World of Warcraft hit big.
Like many I got sucked into WoW but then also started other MMOs, at one stage I was playing four at once. I over saturated myself! Too much and too little time meant that I had to cull some.
I discarded all but Warhammer Online, while most of my online friends went back to WoW or something similar.
I wonder if skirmish game players will go through a similar cycle.
Buy into half a dozen or so games, invest themselves too thinly across them and start to shrink back their games or retreat to comfort zones.
Currently I play Warhammer Fantasy, WarmaHordes and Dreadball. I’d like to add something else to the mix, something smaller or different from what I currently play. Though at the same time I’m worried that if I do, I won’t dive into the game and enjoy the hobby or mearly skim across the surface of too many games.
Too many skirmish games? I don’t think it’s a bad thing. Nor will it bust. Kickstarter itself might evolve but what we see with x-wing is wargaming moving into the mainstream, and the industry itself is expanding… the same as it did with video games. Yes, video games are disposable but there are also immersive, and very rewarding multiplayer competitive games that can be played for long periods. A player that’s played starcraft for years is just as invested as any miniatures gamer, just putting in the hours to get good at the game.
I’m one of those gamers with the wall of plastic, but i’m pretty good at getting stuff painted too. I really appreciate x-wing because it gives me that variety in gaming that I crave, whereas i would otherwise be saturated with games that require painting in order to play. I would hate only ever playing one game and only being restricted to one faction. Might have some nostalgia associated with it, but IMO that’s better left in the past. It’s also allowed tabletop games to completely replace video games for me (imagine only ever playing one video game?) And that’s not even getting into the point that x-wing can be just as intense with with repaints and conversion as any other wargame, and it can be an intense battle/narrative game too that takes up four hours or more for a game. it’s only that for most people there’s no need… and I appreciate going to an x-wing tournament and not playing against grey plastic.
I am a more fanatical person than most, but I estimate that if games were more mainstream in my area I could probably easily play up to ten different tabletop games, with one or two of them being 40k type commitment level, before i really reach my saturation point, and i mean play those games with familiarity and at least one fully painted faction. I game about twice a week. But I am also a very intense painter and modeller so I really appreciate skirmish because i can maintain my intense standards on every model without it being overwhelming.
IMO, the industry is set to grow more. It will only take a game that is structured like x-wing, with the combo of high quality prepainted minis, good distribution, good rules and low entry bar combined with the potential for mastery and skilled play, but set in an expansive universe, probably fantasy type. That would bite into MTG’s and video gamers territory. For us dedicated wargamers it can only mean good things as the industry expands and more money is put into games we love.
I’ve supported a lot of Kickstarters, some for miniature games and hobby stuff, others for board games. Of all the miniature games I’ve supported the only one I’ve really spent a good amount of time with is Dreadball. That doesn’t mean I don’t want to apply more time to the others. As with any game (or at least most of them) you need another like-minded individual to play with. I like the hobby part and am happy to put together figures for myself and a friend to game with, but that truly doesn’t happen as often as I’d like.
The number of KS games I’ll be supporting in the future is quickly approaching zero after my experience with the Dust debacle. The other side of that coin is that through the campaigns I’ve supported and things I’ve bought locally, I have far, far more games and figures than I’ll ever need. It covers off tons of different things I’m interested in (time period, genre, rule set etc) so when I get bored with one thing I’ve always got another option to focus on. I’m happy with my gaming and hobby, so in the end that’s really all that matters to me.
I see that confrontation has leaved his mark on the market!
On the subject of how far done does an army or game need to be before playing, I have found my jaunt into Rackham stuff has allowed me to have the best of both worlds.
The game Hybrid, comes with a monster, 4 tiny creatures, and 7 man sized figures, and so was a manageable amount to paint to a high quality and be ready for gaming. Then, as we played the missions, I was able to get painted more models as we went, which opened up options in the game as to warriors we can use.
Now, having painted so much, I have almost all the models painted for the Hybrid board game, and now have sizeable forces for the Confrontation skirmish game. So while I play that game I can paint the models to turn these two faction forces into Rag’Narok armies.
Now given the distinct style of games each is, I see this as a strength that GW used to have (Warhammer Quest > Mordheim > Warhammer), but has since lost.
In a similar way, Iron Kingdoms RPG lets you ease yourself into new factions by giving you great reasons to collect models as antagonists for the rpg, that can then blossom into full on armies.
The Wrath of Kings wolves do look almost exactly like the Wolfen from Confrontation.
@warzan
Don’t know if you’ve seen them before, but the Mat-O-War seem to be the closest thing to the GW battlemat I’ve ever found (Best product GW have ever made in my opinion!)
you can get them from here:
http://www.antenocitisworkshop.com/mat-o-war-green-2m-x-1-25m.html
There’s a review here: (not mine, but it shows the mat very well)
http://theveilsedge.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/gaming-table-project-mat-o-war-gaming.html
Bit pricey in comparison to the old GW mat, but probably worth the cost if it looks that good and lasts as long as it claims to!
I think games like X-wing will become more popular. Pre-painted and quick games are a huge advantage now days (also cheapish models). I can already see an issue in my local area (Australia) where some of the older games are getting eaten up by the new smaller games. Warmachine, Xwing and Flames of War currently dominate with Games workshop slowly dying and a bunch of new games on the horizon. The issue we face is Bolt Action eats into Flames of war, leaving less players in both which might end up killing off the draw for a new player.
Nothing is more powerful as a draw for a game than seeing table after table of players all playing the same game with cool mini’s. It is exactly why GW was dominant for so long. The kickstarter issue is going to be an issue in a year or two when games like Bolt Action, Dropzone commander and other games have grown to the point where they want to turn into the next big thing but there simply is not a big enough pool of available funds and time to allow for it. I myself am what I see as a new age gamer. I have an army/force in several games at once and I play all of them on and off at the same time. I see more and more people doing this and I fear that it may cause issues down the track when you lose the consistent game scene for certain games.
Also as an upside to all that doom and gloom is that in terms of a new age gamer like me, once one system draws me in (Xwing), I immediately get drawn into others. In the last 5 months I have heavily invested into Warhammer (40k and Fantasy), Xwing, Flames of War and Warhammer Conquest (card game). I am also looking at expanding into Bolt Action. All of this means more money for my local game store and potentially another opponent for people to face in those games.
Can someone point me to the blog/XLBS where Warren discussed sending a C&D *to* GW? It’s at 5:18 in this XLBS. My google-fu is weak today, and I’ve not found it. But I really want the details on that story. If you can point me in the right direction, I’d be very appreciative. Thanks!
The Chaos ones and a few others would have been around ’88, the space marine packs however was later as style of the marines is 2nd edition. So may look earlier but definitely later.
Should add this is RE: the Combat Cards, otherwise sounds a bit random!