Age Of Sigmar Unofficially/Officially Tweaked Already?
July 7, 2015 by brennon
It looks like a document came through from someone at Games Workshop with some rules to help players get a better grasp of what units should be allowed onto the tabletop for Age of Sigmar. See what you think of it below...
So, this helps a lot with the idea of balance when it comes to games. I think a lot of people had twigged on this style of restriction with their games already; but it's nice to see Games Workshop trying to lay down some guidelines.
I've already had a chat with a few friends and we can see this being a good rule of thumb to work from for the time being. This seems like the perfect chance for Games Workshop to get back on social media. Weather the storm and get some chatter going with everyone.
What do you think?
"This seems like the perfect chance for Games Workshop to get back on social media. Weather the storm and get some chatter going with everyone..."
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Reactive blah, blah.
Sounds like common sense, probably they will come up with something more refined later on but i like they will stick to no-point-cost system, at least it will show other companies if is doable in practice or not and what limitations does it have.
That’s what I was thinking.
It’s nice that a global company with 2000 employees, a quarter of a billion pound turnover, and a full-time design team, got round to realising after they’d released the rules that maybe fielding duplicates of the same character wasn’t such a great idea after all. Once again, why are we getting this as a ‘leaked email’ from random person at GW, just like the random rep at the FW open day? Having been prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt, I’m rapidly beginning to despair at their handling of this. It’s bush league from a small company, let alone the biggest company in the industry.
Yeah as I mentioned above you would have thought this was something that social media would have handled really, really, really well.
Even if it wasn’t that and just a note on their What’s New Today Blog – I think that would have been better.
They should just stick an article up on their £4 million webstore explaining the design philosophy around force selection in AoS and offer this as a stop-gap suggestion for those who want some form of structure until something more official is released when the scenarios, campaigns, and tournament rules are released.
Same company that shot the legal cannon at a single mother who was trying to raise money for veterans then shut down their Facebook due to the back lash… so yeah…. they’re a company who super knows how to do stuff.
The 4 million web store is mainly because they got into bed with oracle and get gouged with the mandatory support contract and consultation fees if they want to put a button outside of the defined template…..
As for lack of social media, well they do seem to be 20 years behind the times at all times, in GW towers the battle of brit pop is about to begin and the barricades are being erected to defend themselves from the spice girls, give them 6 years and they might have a myspace account 😛
this is just my take on it but I think we are all too much in a hurry. They are restarting their warhammer battle range. week 1 (next Saturday) they will release the starter game.
The week 1 hasn’t even started that we are already saying that the game is broken. 3/4 of us haven’t even tried to play the game.
It seems normal to me that more and more updates and additional rules will appear. The fact that they haven’t release or announce them is perfectly fine with me.
You must learn to walk before you can run.
This makes me wonder why they didn’t do this at first place when they released free rules.
They want event planers to run their own events? Seems like common sense suggestions to me.
There is part of me that refuses to believe this is accurate because it looks so amateurish. I also think that the ‘balance’ system won’t work. Wounds are a poor balance mechanic
This is GW we are talking about, they have given new life to the phrase “cack-handed”
I hope it isn’t legit. I really hope it isn’t. I’d hate for this to be how GW are handling AoS.
You are more optimistic than I!
Hope is a fragile thing, I think it could be but part of me hopes this isn’t – otherwise the baby has not only gone out with the bath water but someone has laid a curler in the bath afterwards
Looks like common sense to me, shame common sense isnt that common.
Personally i like the fact its so open ended and forces discussion with your opponent, for me a lot of the enjoyment with GW games went as soon as more and more people started playing them like RTS’s and less and less like my preferred way which is a social drinking game, AoS’s rules will quickly identify ‘that guy/girl’ and quickly help you to spot who is worth gaming with and who would be best avoided.
For me most of the backlash seems to be from people who want to have their hands held and have explicit pictures showing them how to measure and what consititues unit conherency, i seriously wonder how many of the current 40k fanboys would get on playing 2nd edition with dark millenium….
I got on with it fine, though to be fair I’m not a 40K fanboy. I got on with Rogue Trader and with Slaves to Darkness’ chaos warband system too. Age of Sigmar does tell you how to measure and what constitutes unit coherency, just like WFB did.
“but it’s nice to see Games Workshop trying to lay down some guidelines”
Erm, yeah “nice” is one word you could use for their handling of it.
I seriously doubt this is indeed from GW. It’s just a picture of a txt file print out. Any idiot on the net could’ve done it and claimed it was from them.
Exactly – I am yet to see anything that convinces me that this is for real. That said, assuming for the moment that it is somehow legitimate, it would function well enough as a stop gap measure, but that is all it would be. I still believe that we are going to see far more comprehensive rules in the future for AoS as the game develops, for game balance among many other things. The living rulebook setup GW has gone for is ideal for that type of ongoing process of expansion and rules refinement.
It could be. If a customer asked me for a printout of an email I wouldn’t just print it out with recipient and sender email addresses listed, that would be ridiculously unprofessional. I’d dump the contents somewhere and print that out instead, like in a text file.
Wel the message talks about ‘your customers’ so I think this is just a mail with suggestions from a fan.
Intriguing. I like this idea.
I liked MWG solution of assigning points coints with (wounds+attacks)xbravery with the total x2 for war machines and monsters.
I think comments about the unprofessional manner this seems to be advancing are right, but the major point is they do nothing really. This is because wounds are not equal in the game, and I havent fully studied all the warscrolls, but just a cursory glance brings this up.
Some units regenerate, some don’t. I think its a skaven unit that can burrow into the ground, become invulnarable and regen lost models, various undead can as well. 1 wound of that unit is clearly not equal to one wound of a unit that cannot regenerate. That is without even talking about the ability to summon dozens of models a turn some of the wizards have now that will severely skew this as well.
Poor game good minis, nothing has changed
I’m not even convinced the minis are good.
It’s hard to know whether this is legitimate or not. It’s not exactly on GW headed paper and the wording suggests it’s a quick-fix thrown together by someone at store level to help out other shops that are having some tough questions thrown at them. If the designers themselves had written it I don’t think it would have been headed “Untitled”.
If it does turn out to be genuine (maybe this is a memo paving the way for a proper game-legal update) then I think it’s a practical step by GW. I’ve no problem with a company reacting to negative feedback and changing things up. I’d rather they held their hands up and admitted to an error in judgement instead of trundling forward with their “vision” and blindly ignoring massive criticism. (Granted, GW should have done a lot more playtesting and corrected the issues long before launch)
Microsoft did the same thing with their policies on game sharing. They tried something new and it almost got them written off as a failure before the consoles had even launched. But they saw sense and removed all restrictions. Sure, Sony got to laugh at them for a bit but now they’re back in the fight.
On a slight side note, the confusion around AoS is even more evidence that GW need a proper bloody website. This would be a lot clearer if they had a simple ‘Announcements’ section or a news feed (Or anything resembling a forum). I’m sure anything official will eventually turn up in White Dwarf but that’s a slow way of getting info out to the players. With everything hitting the net so quickly the magasine feels outdated before it even hits the shelves.
Untitled is from printing from notepad without saving the file, hardly proof that it has come from GW, hardly proof that it hasnt, wouldnt be surpised IF it came from GW that it was from a wider ranging email probably detailing the rest of the launch so probably marked as confidential with that snippet being in the “safe” to tell customers section.
This looks like something you’d see in an internal memo, it clearly says, “For your customers” so it could simply be a short term response to the over blown internet chatter over the issue. So when people come into their GW Store to try AOS and ask about balance they can put forward this approach. It also so says it’s an example; so it’s not set in stone.
If it’s even official; if it is, clearly someone thought that sharing it with online communities is a show of faith. and wants them to know that the issue will be dealt with or addressed.
I personally don’t know what all the hot air being expelled is over, they are clearly planning to readdress the entire product line in the long term with new models and concepts. but in the meantime you have all the army rules to try out and play. I can’t get my head around why people put the issue of “points” in the same sentence as “balance” 8thed points were so arse around face ,as well as the rules some armies were just so OP you could pretty much tell how battles would go.
AOS offers a new way to play warhammer, it’s a big change for people I get that. it’s getting your head around you’re not being boxed in on how you play your games. if you want a bonkers game with all the greater deamons and Glotkin and a mass horde of Chaos warriors, just say to your mate your going to game with “Hey are you cool with this”.
If you are worried about balance why does it have to be an official thing from GW. How about just open up a dialogue with you opponent, come up with narrative or scenarios.
I truly can’t wait to get more into the new armies of AOS, and start playing campaigns. It’s your game, you’ve been given the tools, only you can choose what you build with it.
Because its early in the game’s life and its not really easy to tell what is going to be a good match and what isn’t. I played my first game last night and the two sides seemed reasonable, but once we got them onto the table it was clear I was vastly outmatched by my opponents force and I spent the entire game fighting a losing battle. The game was enjoyable enough, and neither of us had malicious intent going in, my opponent even apologized at about the midway point, not that it was really his fault.
My point is, without an idea of how to balance a game we are going to spend several just getting used to what means what in the new system. This might work for some players. but being forced to work through several games before you can just start enjoying it is going to be too much effort for some and they’ll either drop the system, or never even bother to try it.
Having said that, the game itself is fine. I quite enjoyed the new rules and I’m keen to play again.
It’s entirely freeform so far, which is a radical approach. For some anarchic reason, I like that. Maybe to promote narrative play and scenarios written for games among your regular and more relaxed, non competitive friends. It seems also to allow any club or tournament scene to decide how they want force selection to run (communities are excellent at creating these things and customising as MWG have already shown). Also *maybe* it will become a living rules system/warscroll for units that can be tweaked over time without having to reprint army books now, plus they went free which was cool. Just a few musings. Who knows, time will tell, good or bad. I am optimistic this could be a left field success if it gets a chance to be played.
This seems like a very funny and un Games Workshop way of releasing anything. I can’t believe they have revised their sales tactics that much that they’re releasing or publishing rules modifications on line without the usual fanfare and declaration that “THIS IS THE NEW BEST FRICKIN THING IN THE WHOLE FRICKIN WORLD?” Unless GW have seriously had a change of mindset? Perhaps the next WH40000 revision will be a free download off of the internet? or am I dreaming about that one, or perhaps they’re going back to a 1979 pricing structure? (I DOUBT IT VERY MUCH) chortle…. cough cough.
I doubt 40k would be free rules, just because to much money, its not like fantasy set the balance sheets on fire, if they did anything free rules in the 40k universe i would expect it to be a side game, maybe necromunda or gorkamorka something self contained like that, where you can inherit some of the 40k rules but also have enough unique mechanics to make it different enough to maintaining distinction between brands.
Wrath of Kings is a fantasy skirmish game that already has a balanced no points-based system based on ranks. It also has alternating game play and a simple, Yet effective, combat system.
*which isn’t relevant here, as the existing range – and these new models – don’t seem to be balanced in that manner 🙁
I am really surprised that they are surprised people would have a problem with no kind of point system. I didn’t even finish reading the rules before I saw that this was going to be a problem so I guess I just cant really figure out why they couldn’t see that (or didn’t care?). Maybe there has been some kind of restructuring and they are trying to focus just on doing minatures rather than games…
One theory, mine at least, (I infer this from the bottom of each Army list PDF) is that they will be releasing pre-made formations (which will supposedly be balanced) – maybe you’ll have level 1 and level 2 etc. where the higher the levels the more models.
These “Sigmar Formations” will basically be the new Battalion box sets.
The only crazy reason I can think of why the game designer ignored the model count per unit, is if they wanted the setup phase to be like a card-game bidding war. Where each player bid on the number of troops they will need to win the game:
A: I am fielding 30 clanrats
B: I see, I raise my army by 40 chaos warriors.
A: Oh ok then I am adding 30 runners
But that would require players to have a large selection of models and know the unit balance from the get go.
Internal messages in a company don’t need to be pretty. From what it looks like, this is a direction not yet meant for public viewing. They test this out in the shops and if it does well then they will most likely ratify the rules. Just because it’s GW doesn’t make this a bad message or a mishandled take on rules. Every company have such things.
I’m more disturbed by the lack of discretion and keeping internal messages internal. If I had done this with my work I would be fired.
This was sent out to retailers through trade sales last week on the 1st. Many of us asked about balancing for the first few games and this is what they sent us. It isn’t a leak, just a suggestion based on what one of the sales account managers sent out.
This is like a post release patch for a crap-tastic video game. (if its even real)
Could have added those 6 lines into the rules part, but it’s nice to see that they are listening some what to their community. Sure you can say it is a reaction, but it also goes to show that people can not get together & come up with their own guild lines. You just have to go to you tube & search Age of Sigmar & pick some ones channel or go to the forms, to hear the whinning about no point costs or I’m going to field 80 mini’s to your 50 mini’s, or I’ll bring 10 deamons or 20 dragons { 😉 } to fight your army.
I just ran across something interesting over on Spikey Bits – there seems to be a rumour going around (based on a translation from a Spanish page) that the forthcoming Age of Sigmar book set to be available for preorder this Saturday will be a 264 page hardback affair which covers the events between the End Times and the AoS continuity and comes with eight new scenarios and 24 war scrolls covering the Stomcast Eternals, Khorne Bloodbound and something called the Sylvaneth, who I imagine are something to do with Wood Elves/Tree Spirits. There is also reference to this product becoming a ‘module’ of the AoS rules.
This doesn’t exactly sound like your standard BRB, but it seems to be likely to fulfill a broadly similar role to that kind of book.
Here’s the link. Make of it what you will:-
http://www.spikeybits.com/2015/07/new-age-of-sigmar-264-page-rulebook-confirmed.html
Have seen the retailer sheet on this, releases on the 18th. LE is web only, and there’s a couple of “hobby products” and a character clamshell, etc., in the same time frame.
‘Sylvaneth’ is the new name for Wood Elves. If you check out the GW webstore, the armies are all now listed under their new names.
Maybe if GW wanted to show some good faith towards their loyal customers they could start by making the rulebooks and armybooks for 8th still available on their webstore and shops as opposed to making it appearas if it never existed. Perhaps even promote balancing structures like the swedish system that has seemed to work well on the US tournement circuit, a circuit that GW has so gracious refused to support for well over a decade now. In fact GW has seemed to wash their hands of any US organized play anything, gone are the days of weekend long Grand Tournements and Games Days. But it looks like they are right on track to rebuild those bridges by putting out a system that bears literally no resemblance to any edition of it predecessors.
AoS was sold to the owner of my local game store that this system would allow anyone to play with whatever someone may have in their collection no matter how big or small. With these suggested limits (should they be adopted as official or become the unofficial standard) then years long collectors like myself could have masses of models that will never see playtime. By endeavoring to create a system that doesn’t limit the “creative” play of it’s players GW has managed to create an outcry for structure, much as their games always have, which may in turn be more limiting than any edition before.
All snark aside, I find it interesting to hear supporters make reference to narrative play. These games are not RPGs they are Tabletop Strategy Game and 2 need not be entwined. There have always been opportunities to play WFB in whatever manner you wish, wheather it be through official campaigns and scenarios or through the creativity of your own gaming group. I recall some excellent themed campaigns we ran in the past even if they weren’t built off of official rules. D&D 4th ed is an excellent example of a game that suffered greatly from trying to be something it shouldn’t be(a tabletop strategy game). The response to that has been arguably the most successful edition of the game with 5th ed returning to the roots of RPGs dB while incorporating elementsfrom hard learned lessons of the past. AoS has taken out the most important elements of TSGs primarily the strategy in an effort to attract anyone it can of any age with a simple(minded) “game”. There is no place in a serious rule system for a TSG that requires someone to talk to an imaginary horse they have to pretend to be riding, and explain to my wife why she needs to grow a mustache to get the most use out of her empire character. These elements have nothing to do with STRATEGY but some of them would be perfectly acceptable in the environment of an RPG. Be what you are GW and work hard at doi g it the very best you can.
Furthermore, if GW is turning over a new leaf and trying to make itself more approachable then why not take a page from Wizards of rhe Coast and make its back catalog of editions and even other games available to be purchased as downloads for an AFFORDABLE pricepoint and let players have easy access to the editions they may actually pefer as opposed to leavinf them to hunt in the secondary market.
Current extended rant finished.
I know this was a rant, so I’ll take it at face value … but …
– these are suggestions, and until official, the official stance is still play with what you’ve got 🙂
– Early editions of wargames, including 40k had a game master role, so suggesting there isn’t a place for them and narrative gaming overlooks a precedence for them being there in the first place 🙂
– The mustache and horse thing is meant as a joke, even if a poor one, no one expects anyone to actually use those rules… unless you turn AoS into a drinking game… all bets are off then.
– WotC caused years of community outrage when it pulled every D&D .PDF related product from every digital store on the market in 2009, closed various Gleemax forums without warning, banned users for speaking their minds, fired a community manager for siding with the community, promised new d20 modern content then closed the forum without a word and nuked the content, and then went on a marketing campaign surrounding 4th edition that essentially called all of their 3.x fans idiots for being 3.x fans … at Gencon and on YouTube no less. When WotC pulled .pdfs my several hundred dollar back catalog on RPGNOW disappeared, literally … the equivalent of WotC coming over and burning my books. Long story short, WotC didn’t get where they were unscathed … 🙂
In regards to WotC, you are absolutely correct and those were some of the “hard lessons learned” over time. Why would GW be so willing to jump into to a situation that would force them to face those lessons themselves as opposed learning from the experience of others? Some of the more successful TSG companies out there got that way because they observed what GW (and others) had done right and wrong and adjusted or developed their practices by using the benefit of the other’s experience, that’s just good business sense.
Pertaining to the narrative and game master elements you are correct as well. Unfortunately what you fail to address is the decades of evolution that has honed both the TSG and RPG into what they have become. Both share exactly the same origin of historic recreation with minis on a tabletop. That is where they also split. You don’t find RPG players flooding stores looking to play the archaic Chainmail ruleset just as TSG players (majority of course) aren’t rushing to play the versions of 40k that had a GM role you refenced, they have just evolved past that point and dn for the better in my opinion.
As for narrative play my only point was that it was always there. From my very early stages of playing WFB in the early 90s my friends and I were already developing unique scenarios and unconventional lists based on the rich fluff provided in those army books. Our creativity never felt hindered, small group tooled out dwarf heroes vs an entire army of orcs and goblins, take and hold or defend scenarios before they showed up as the standard mission types, sieges and asymmetrical play all for fun. The best part however was that we all knew that when we went to the game store 50 miles away once a month we could ALWAYS get a balanced point pick up game with players that we may have never met before. Those times were the best because you could share strategies and composiytion you may have never thought of before and you had a common standard and language to use amongst yourselves. This was our experience in community building and it worked great.
Ya, in the hard lessons learned category, I look even further back and see TSR written all over some of the bad decisions GW has made in its time. Ban the Internet – check. Sue your customers – check. Overproduce product that segments your market – check. Ignore feedback – check. Hostile to other competitors – check. Develop products into a black hole – check. List kind of goes on there too haha. Incidentally, it’s off topic, but I highly suggest listening to Auntie Lisa story hours from Lisa Stevens of Paizo if anyone ever gets a chance. As Eric Mona and Ryan Dancey say – she knows where the bodies are buried, and isn’t afraid to tell anyone.
Re: the narrative, you’re absolutely correct, and I would agree they are distinct for a reason. 4E D&D lost sight of that, and while D&D has always been tactical gaming since the 3.x revision. My point was more along the lines of, we’re seeing a “what is old is new again” trend globally across tons of industries from retro gaming to retro clothing. I wouldn’t be surprised if at some level GW might be going a bit nostalgic to see whether or not it can offer it as something of an option.
The balanced gaming vis a vis stores opens up an interesting thought process. What if, GW in their design process, has basically constructed AoS to completely disregard the stranger danger component that points based balancing, etc., are generally built around. I’m not saying its right, or an excuse, but every structured design has constraints and requirements, and if viewed from that lens … if the requirement was “make it for people who play at home, among friends” then suddenly some of the decisions make sense.
Glad to see this is maybe a thing. Someone is listening at least.
Think it’s maybe too restrictive. Maximum of 2 of the same Warscroll? Maximum of 2 heroes? Out of 12 units? They’re never selling those big plastic kits with these restrictions.
There goes a lot of thematic armies. My Nuln Engineers are scrambling around trying to find a Mortar to replace one of the cannons, and all the handgunners seem to be milling about looking for something to do…
1 Hero/1 Monster per four regular Warscrolls. (You need a 5th unit to get 2 Heroes and 2 Monsters, 9 regular units to get your 3rd etc.)
Maximum of 32 Wounds per scroll. (Let’s people still field a nice 6×6/4×8 unit if they want)
Sudden Death rules based on Total wounds in army, not models.
Scalability.
“No single warscroll may contain x wounds”
Holy shit either I’m JUST that good or GW has read my thread lol 😛
I wouldn’t consider this official.
One GW sales-rep (possibly puzzled as we are) drawing up some quick-fix to help his trade-customers doesn’t really equal an “official” response, just because the guy happend to work for GW.
I wouldn’t even go so far as to call this a fix. This looks suspiciously like some guidelines issued to store managers about what to suggest to customers who say, “I don’t know where to start with this”. The reason they don’t put this stuff on their website is they know full well that some people would take it as an official ruling on how you should play. That’s not what they intend it to be.
One of the best solutions for those wanting a point system was demod by the miniwargamming guys. Each model calculated: Wounds + Attacks x Bravery. Double this if the model is a warmachine or monster.
Well I thought it wasn’t a bad attempt by the miniwargaming guys, guess not 😉
I am not convinced wounds are great metric. Elite models will beat any basic most of the time. It should include the stats, equipment and abilities of the minis as well for the number of models in the unit.
Looking at Nagash alone, he can probably take any army on his own. There won’t be much that will compete with him looking at wounds alone.
Anyway, the ‘rules’ are probably not meant for the existing WHFB range anymore. I can see GW releasing new warscroll/cards that will only work with the coming scenario books they have in store.
Having played this game a few times now, it definitely needs some more structure in the form of force organisation, more tactical rules and scenarios to make it more fun for me. (Big emphasis on the ME there.)
I have played big games, small games, Loads of scenery, hardly any scenery, tried to make the army even, played with what ever we wanted, etc…
In all cases (even using the additional rules on the scrolls) it inevitably turned to a big pile of mush, consisting of:
3+ 4+ 3+ 4+ oooooohhhhh 5+! 3+ 4+
“are you getting bored yet?”
“Yeh a little, lets see where this goes though.”
3+ 4+ 3+ 4+…..
“Ok i’m done now…… so who really won then?”
“I DON’T F*&$ING KNOW!!”
Having said this GW are in a really good position (because of the free rules format) to listen to their fan base and keep releasing updates whenever they want to improve on this game. the idea that this will be a constantly progressing game getting better and better all the time I can get involved with and will persevere with the rules.
If I just get left with a 4 page download and a message that I can house rule anything else….. I will be a bit disappointed.
The balls in your court GW. Game on.
Is there anyway to fix the fact that a puny human will hit an expert elf warrior on 4+ and he will still hit a puny human on 3+ which is the same roll he needs to hit another expert elf warrior !?
Is a fix needed? That’s a WH thing, this is a different game.
Oh, it’s an unrealistic game with limited reflection of reality? I didn’t know. It’s more like, say, snakes and ladders? Gotcha.
(frag yourself if you were thinking of responding like a dope “elves aren’t realistic”)
No, I’m just saying this is a wh rule, nothing more :/ you don’t see comparing of combat skills in other wargames so no need for aos to follow wh rules and therefore no need to fix. This is just something that you require.
This fixes literally nothing. I could still show up with 12 Battlescrolls of 24 Chaos Warriors against 12 Orc Bullies. This feels like the wargaming equivalent of “Did you try restarting your router?” whenever you ask your ISP for some kind of assistance. If you knew absolutely nothing at all about gaming in general, then maybe this would set you on the right track. It’s a little patronizing to everyone else, though.
I mean, let’s say this is official… They even write “balanced” in quotations in the e-mail!!!
It does State that other war scrolls may only be duplicated once, so that max of any infantry would be 48, so the maximum number of Bloodthirsters would be 2, unless they are characters then its 1. but again It boggles my mind that this has to be an official fix, if it is. All those people saying does that mean i can field 20 dragons or 20 Bloodthristers…Sure I guess that’s one way of looking at it, but if you went out and bought 20 bloodthirsters, I think that fielding them in a battle all at once; would be low down on a long list of problems you should be dealing with.
they should bechmark mantics deadzone :
models have types :
troopers : as many as you wish
leaders : same
specialists, rare, unique : limited to the nb of troopers models you field
+ unique (named characters, heros…) has an additional constraint : you can field one single model with that name
Even a points system will barely improve this game. Sad but true. Balanced forces are just one of the legion of things this game needs.
We might need to admit this was probably a child’s game and was always intended as such – it has many hallmarks of a kids game (with the usual GW contradictions). It’s not for 13+.
Even the new fluff is kids garbage suspiciously inspired probably more by the Thor movies than the original Norse stuff.
@poosh They are all kids games really, we just convince ourselves otherwise 😉
I’m thinking that at my local game group showed up with 20 dragons, he or she would be hard pressed to get a game. I like what GW have done, and I think like any new game, we have to give it time. I feel that GE have gone this way in order to get people thinking about how they’d like the game to be played. You want to play with no constraints? Fine.
My gaming group has had discussions around how we’d like to play. The best we’ve come up with so far is to use PV from the army books, limit characters, and have a max amount of wounds per unit. We didn’t need GW to tell us how to play. And the games so far have been entertaining.
So give it a go, make house rules, and just have some fun people. If you don’t like it, don’t play. There’s plenty of other games out there.
you can’t fix stupid
“All other warscrolls can only be duplicated once”. 3 of the 4 Skaven detachment lists have 3 units of the same warscroll as a requirement.