Weekender XLBS: What Could Be The Next Thirty Year Game?
July 9, 2017 by warzan
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Happy Sunday!!
“40k is currently sucking the air out of the room” puts it very nicely. It’s 8-ed surge is currently ruining my hobby, but I know it’ll slowly die back to normal levels
I’m more worried by the short term distortion to ‘normal’ market activity. The increased spend going into GW coffers will be both new money that would otherwise be spent on different luxury products, but a significant amount will be from within the tabletop game market; that means from the smaller, niche, studio games companies struggling to establish in the marketplace.
I can see some roadkill being left in the wake of the juggernaut!
How is it ruining you’re hobby? It’s getting a lot of air time but it’s had zero impact on my hobby beyond that.
When my local club was 90% 40k or related and my FLGS Malifaux group have all been tempted away for the last few weeks it’s definitely sucked the air out of my non-40k room; although the balance may already be returning with plans this week…
Happy Sunday guys looking forward to looking through! I am going to a bit busy catching up with the videos ha ha so it may take awhile.
Alright, next thirty-year game.
It’s not out yet. I am not saying that there is one in development that I know about, what I am saying is it isn’t out yet. We are reaching a threshold of things making a huge change, self-driving cars that is enough to completely change society. I think maybe the next big thing will be an adult version of skylanders, something where you have a base model, and you digitally paint it, they all come plain and then you do that you battle people at home or at a store and stuff is projected over them or an app shows how far you can shoot and stuff.
Now that could be way off base and probably is but I think it gets at what I am saying. It is something that isn’t out yet, that we currently aren’t conceiving of…
That is my thoughts anyway.
I gotta disagree with you here dude. I think the next 30 year game is Warmachine. It’s already 14 years old and is one of the most popular tabletop wargames. I can see it doing another 16 years, no worries.
It may but remember I am looking from an Australian perspective and things for Warmachine have gone down a huge amount here for Warmachine, very few stores continue to stock it, it has gone under big time here.
Happy Sunday, everyone.
Aging games: PanzerBlitz, Panzer Leader, Arab-Israeli Wars still have multiple dedicated websites that support them, active communities, “dining room publishers” supporting them etc. The first iterations of Jim Dunnigan’s PanzerBlitz came out in 1969, so it’s coming up on 50 years. 😀
I’ve got Panzer Blitz and Leader as well as all of the Squad leader range …. still love that game.
ASL is definitely another great one. 32 years and still going strong. Talk about longevity! 😀
Happy Sunday!
Happy Sunday! And yay Buck Rogers! We used to play it when it first came out, I can’t remember much about it how it played now but it was a lot of fun.
happy sunday!
I can’t help it I have to ask! Did Justin went to Egersund, Norway recently? Apparently someone destroyed the local Trollpikken. 😀
he should be put on a watch list 😉
Happy Sunday,
Buck Rogers in the 25th Century! that is a fantastic find, never played it but I was a big fan as a kid and even had a costume when I was a kid….. there’s an image for people o.O
3 great golden button winners and Dug especially, it’s great to see a regular contributor being recognised for the journey they’ve gone on. 🙂
Longevity in games is an interesting one, there are quite a lot of games out there when you go looking for them that are just as old. There are a couple of reasons games survive for this length of time, the first reason is that it works. Chess, DBA, rpgs like D&D or Call of Cthulhu would all fall into this category as examples. The games works and therefore they have survived on that.
Secondly and what I think you were aiming at @warzan is branding, when you talk about the models, GW has built a brand in the same way people who buy nike trainers, or apple phones or what have you. In that way they they entered the market when their were few competitors, built their model and brand, and because of that a lot of people enter the hobby and are unaware of other companies or genres. I call it all vacuum cleaners are hoovers.
The other big escape room game at the moment is Unlock. It’s by the same company who do Sherlock Holmes: Consulting Detective (to which I third the recommendation, unless you prefer a more Lovecraft setting in which case go with Mythos Tales). They also do T.I.M.E. Stories, which is a co-op game I’ve recommended this before and do so again. Speaking of Lovecraft, co-op games, and apps, Mansions of Madness 2e is wonderfully atmospheric experience. Dead of Winter is another excellent co-op game.
I think I played the Back Rogers game but don’t remember too much about it. The TPG TSR did was good fun as well
Why has 40k lasted? I would say shops on the high street. I think there are many other games. DBA, Command Decision,General Quarters for RPG’s Traveller and Runequest are still going strong. Though not quite as old Warmaster and Epic still have a huge following.
It would be interesting for any if these games of how many people who played them 30 years ago are still playing them now and are companies relying on a constant churn of new customers to keep the game alive?
For longevity it’s about the fans and the lore. Lord of the rings is over 15 years old and still has a loyal following. The community makes a game for me and a game with a good solid ip that is easy to digest attracts a good group of people. A solid ip allows a company to focus less on background and more on the game and also lets them retain people even without releases. GW didn’t really release anything for LOTR between 2008 – 2012 and while they didn’t build a huge fanbase they more or less retained the old ones. Imagine 40K or Infinity went 4 years without a new book or any new minis, they’d be in trouble. Both of these games have amazing stories but sitting down and watching lotr while painting some orcs while you plan some games based on what you’re seeing is an experience you just can’t get from an audiobook.
Having an external IP like LOTR or Star Wars will also bring people into the game without a company having to advertise as much as one with a self contained story. Having a low cost entry point is also a good way to get people into the hobby, I think all of us have that one starter set we picked up ages ago that we eventually turned into an army.
I have that Buck Rogers game, I always wanted it when I was a teenager but didn’t get it until about 5 years ago. I also have several Dungeons & Dragons board games by TSR.
I won’t mention my D&D collection 😉
Both D&D and Magic were massive successes straight out of the gate. There was no slow burn for those games. Both games sold out of their initial print runs almost instantly. Magic in particular struggled to keep product in print whilst WotC grew to match the demand. 40K was launched into an already successful market for GW which had been growing rapidly for the previous few years on the back of its Warhammer Fantasy range.
Magic is the first collectable card game. It has no predecessors. Richard Garfield took the trading card distribution model and added a game to it. D&D has more of a context and grew out of the likes of Braunstein. In fact, Gygax was concerned that if they couldn’t raise the money to take D&D to print quickly, then they’d be scooped by another company. But it was the first recognisable rpg and it did innovate that market.
I think I should clarify that I’m specifically talking about games that are still generating significant revenue and even continued growth.
Otherwise the list will get very long 🙂
Could you define significant revenue?…For some games rules that still sell that could mean a few thousands profit every year
At least generating millions of $$$ in revenue every year, if not tens of millions.
Correct
Having been 10 when 40k first appeared and remember those days fondly, I think a lot of the longevity of the game/brand is because of a few elements. Dedicated stores are of course the main reason, targeting high streets with a vaguely affordable kid friendly product. Nostalgia from1st generation fans introducing their offspring to the game(s) of their youth. Constantly refreshing the line and innovation in new production methods which makes the core product a higher quality. The cross platform licensing also helps, computer games based on popular IP’s have the effect of drawing people to and back to the physical gaming/modelling.
Is profit though the only marker though. Take DBA for example. It’s now in its 3rd edition after 25+ years the rulebook is £20 and that’s all you need ever buy as the army lists are included and after all these years it’s still being played and enjoyed by many 100’s if not maybe thousands of players around the world. I doubt if the writers have made millions out if it but you can’t argue about its longevity and influence in gaming
Yes, because this is about the ability of a product to generate large revenues over a long period of time. Generating large revenues over a short period time, or generating small amounts of revenue over a longer period of time are both much easier to do. It’s also a lot easier to stay in production for a long period of time if you require small amounts of revenue to sustain that. If a ruleset can be done by one guy, then it need never fall out of print. We could certainly ask why it is that DBA has been able to stay relevant as ruleset for so long, or look at how influential it has been, those are both interesting topics of discussion, but DBA has never been a market leader in miniature wargaming of anything like the magnitude of 40K, so it hasn’t had to do what 40K has done, and so the question as to how 40K has done it doesn’t apply to DBA.
Magic: The Gathering is an interesting example as it was almost designed by accident. Richard Garfield was trying to sell Rob Rally to Wizards of the Coast but they said it needed more work and agreed to take it as long as Garfield could come up with a game they could start making quickly, that game was Magic.
They didn’t do RoboRally because they couldn’t afford it. So they asked Richard for something that was cheaper, as well as quick and portable, that people could take to cons and play in the downtime between rpg sessions as a side game. Some side game it turned out to be lol, plus it turned out to be every bit as expensive as RoboRally to boot!
Happy Sunday guys,
I wholeheartedly believe in the format you guys put together for the recent hobby night. I feel it’s not only a great platform for the community but also for you guys too. Warren there is nothing wrong with being a host and cracking the whip over the guys as they hobby, as I know your painting days are now behind you and in front of John 🙂
I think Ben needs some sort of visual interrupter maybe a red bat phone or a flashing red siren as he struggled to get in on the conversation a few times due to the passionate views being discussed today. We need to see the inner angry Ben 🙂
I think the 30 year question is an interesting one and as pointed out the games used as examples developed in almost a vacuum at the time. High street stores I imagine played a big part in years gone by but now the high street can be found on the internet.
Is it that these companies have since formed contracts or procured infrastructure that means most of their products, if not all of them, can be produced in house which makes their longevity more likely?
An interesting experiment is to do some searches on Google using generic terminology rather than brand names and see which companies come where on the results.
Is their any accounting to show what Skylanders made in its final year to see if it was a planned completion or a necessary one?
GKR showed an interactive visual element at some of the shows they attended which may be the closest thing I have seen to what you mentioned today and which would be perfect for remote playing if you both had the required models.
https://youtu.be/y6DEQPatm5o
A really good Sunday show.
Inner angry Ben – I like the sound of that @noyjatat ;D
Another great thought provoking show.
Longevity of games comes from several things. 40K had great miniatures. GW has continued to stay at the top of the miniature market and so that remained a constant. It had a great story that was different in that it was not a Hollywood ending,the universe was familiar enough and yet unique and the heroes weren’t obvious or ‘clean’. The scale of the universe allowed you carve out your own story in the ‘grim dark’.
MTG, D&D and 40K have all stumbled with their rules or flooded the market new releases until their client base felt they couldn’t keep up. Interestingly D&D and GW appear to have pulled back on new releases in recent years.
A good Sunday morning. i also a fan of the Lost Fleet series and what makes it interesting with the battles is the author Jack Campbell real name John G Hemry is a retired US Navel officer so I can see some of naval knowledge being translated to these excellent books. I know this is not a card game but a game by CMON called Gekido:Bot Battles. Small modular board and the figures are fairly chunky and prepainted/coloured plastic with a fun theme and also another game for you and your wife SAGRADA a dice game by Floodgate games. the game is about stainglass windows hence the name Sagrada the famous cathedral in Barcelona and is more fun and quite tricky to play. Have a fun time for in Wales with your famil.
Also forgot to mention, head wasn’t attached today I would be trouble. An older book series by another American Author who I think lives in Eire called Harry Harrison well know for the Stainless Steel Rats books wrote a trilogy in 1980 called To The Stars and in the third or second book rail guns are mentioned that these battles the ships are hundreds maybe thousands of miles from each other firing these lumps of metal no lasers or fast Star Wars ship maneuvers but slow Battleship style maneuverabilty.
Sadly Harry died about 5 years ago. Still have first edition Stainless Steel rat book signed by him when he attended a sci-fi con in Belfast.His Deathworld series are really good as well
Didn’t realize that he pasted away. And yes the DeathWorld trilogy is excellent. I know this trilogy is a big favorite in Russia and some sci-fi authors their have carried on the trilogy with HH’s permission and I think know that there maybe six book in the series.
Lost fleet is an amazing series. Read all 15 books far to quickly for my liking (3 months). Love the tactics and the feel of being a real navy book in space. Great twists and like the timings of the book and the real world targeting issues when moving very fast. Will need to go back in 5 or so years and read again.
Great to hear the plug for it it’s awesome, everyone should read them!
Happy Sunday 🙂
Another great Weekender! I enjoyed Warren’s retelling of the family’s jaunt through the My Little Pony RPG – you can’t put a price on that kind of family interaction, was very heart warming.
One thing about WH40K’s longevity… It’s what Ben was touching on – it was the first game to do mass battle sci fi fantasy on the tabletop, and it has a complete universe to support it, much like Star Wars. It has a six sided dice mechanic, space elves, space orcs, and space hero’s – Space Marines.
Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson started the fantasy gaming ball rolling, Games Workshop brought fantasy mass battle to the table top, and Rick Priestley took it in to space. Show the man the love he deserves people – he and Gary are my gaming heroes. 😀
Wasn’t BattleTech was doing mass sci-fi battles on the tabletop before 40K? I suspect @oriskany can comment on this 🙂
Superfluous ‘was’ there lol
Not entirely sure I would call Battle-tech “mass” battles, but then again you could argue that neither was Warhammer 40,000 in the Rogue Trader era.
I can see X-Wing being the next 30 year game. They’re running out of ships, but there’s a lot of money to be made from new cards and power-creep. Pre-paints + Star Wars is a definite winner.
Will be interesting to see if that proves to be true. GW have stayed away from pre-paints because they believe they are toys rather than hobby products, and as such don’t have longevity.
I agree with them up to a point (though these hobby products are also toys).
I enjoy the the painting as much, if not more as playing, but those of us that do are a little unusual (old-fashioned even) in that respect. I think as the hobby expands, it’ll be the prepaints that bring in the the overwhelming majority of the new blood.
As you say: interesting. I’m no stranger to being wrong 🙂
I don’t think we’re as unusual as you think 🙂 In fact enjoyment of building and painting is one of the things that I think keeps people going back to Games Workshop
Warmachine has a 9 year start on X-wing and I think it has potential to last the distance. I love the X-wing game but I’m not entirely sure it’s a 30 year game. There’s a part of me that kind of agrees with GW’s assessment that the pre-paints don’t generate the level of investment from me as a player that unpainted models do.
@warzan I’m with you, stamp the rabbit, cook it and share it with your friends. MMM delicious.
About Elektronic games: There several worlds that are going for years. I started playing the first Halo about 10 years ago and it is still going and I am sure that there are several others. And new technologies can help keep it alive longer because the developers can achieve more.
About the longevity of games: I think there are several factors that do there part.
The rules and game play for one. But also background and story.
Longevity? D&D and Warhammer due to being one of the first. There were rules for sci-fi/fantasy but these were based on old-school historical games that uses pages of charts meaning slow gameplay. WH changed all that with its simple, to hit/kill/save mechanism and so become huge, the constant releases of excellent mini’s mean it stayed that way.
With the internet came the competition now able to show their games to a world-wide audience and cut into GW player-base, hense the re-invention of WH, fantasy and 40K to keep their players and to recruit more, and they have done a bloody good job at that.
What draws me to Warhammer 40k is the lore, the miniatures and customization I can have building my own force with it’s own narrative. With other words the hobby around it, building, collecting and painting. The new 8th edition rules I do really like, the game feels smoother to me and forging a narrative in battles comes so much easier and thus I enjoy it more. The innovation in the rules keep me playing.
The primaris marines though, I don’t like the look of them and I really don’t like the story behind them.
I think BT was about 83,/84 The first massed sci-fi game I remember playing was lazerburn which was the forerunner of 40k in as much as the same people were involved
@warzan Will there come a time in the future when you go full Wheaton and we get to se you and your family playing board games on camera? I could watch a show where once a week you all play through a mission in Mice and Mystics or possibly even your MLP campaign.
Happy Sunday!!!
Take this game with you, easy game play, great fun, competitive, my kids love it!
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/11/bohnanza
Cheerio
So, Monopoly Gamer. If you’ve missed it, this is a Mario re-skin of Monopoly with pre-painted minis (some of which are in boosters) and some rules tweaks to make play more like a Mario game. Monopoly is far more detested in the board gaming community than 40K has ever been in the mini-gaming community. Hardly anybody likes it and they hate that people who aren’t board gamers think of Monopoly when they think of board games. Yet people have been going crazy for this. It’s now on at least its fifth straight day atop the BGG hotlist, which means its the game that visitors to that website, and these are discerning board gamer types, visit that page more than any other page. It’s a testament to the power of an established brand, even one whose brand is as tarnished as Monopoly’s.
Gorram Monopoly…
Tom Vasel has said in the past jokingly that when he was younger he never watched TV, and so when he went to college he thought all these terrible shows were amazing.
This led him to say that he thinks his kids are going to end up going to college and then suddenly become exposed to Monopoly and think its the greatest thing ever.
I think it is possible that GWS just caught lightning in the bottle with 40k. the right fluff, the right game at the right time, the right price; 30 marines for £10, 3 Deimos pattern Rhino for £10, 2 land raider for £10, 30 guards or squats for £10, a packet of 5 marines for £2.50. I mean the 40k universe is bigger than the game; the game is crucial to the franchise but. Look at the Horus Heresy novels and some 40k novels also; they are new york times best sellers, and a majority of those readers will say what the heck is a table top war game. Also, it continues to exist and grow as GWS supports it so heavily, but they support it so heavily as it has a large fan base that spends so much on GWS, FW, and Black Library product. So many 40k fans state openly that they do not play the game, they collect for the fluff, novels, rules, codexes, all of this. I myself did not play 40k for over 15 years but in all that time I never stopped following the fluff, buying the gaming books and novels, and Still now I would say over 50% of my love of 40k is the fluff, and the books, around a 1/3 is collecting the miniatures, and modding them, with less than 1/6 of the enjoyment actually coming from gaming. Personally, I do not think any new game could have the impact and longevity of 40k, as of the saturation in the market of product, and at the rate of knots, new games are released. To most gamers there has always been 40k and will always be 40k it is an institution now( not saying it is the greatest game ever, nor that there are not better games out there). Whilst new games no matter how great have a flooded pool of existing games, with about every 4-6 months a new crop of games champing at their heels. In the developed world we have a disposable culture, and short attention spans; so unfortunately, games even great ones have become disposable; Kick Starter and the internet makes this worse. OK you buy a new hot game, 6 months on when you would be expanding, that new hot game is on kickstater with all those shiny new models, and a new ruleset to try, so you buy into that and play that one, and just about as you are about to expand that game; then what do you know that the new; new hot game is on Kickstarter, so you buy into that one and so it goes. So those older games instead of being expanded, loved, and supported gets forgotten and relegated to collecting dust on a shelf. When 40K came out it was pretty much the only game of its type in town, so by the time others were competing it was already the great white shark juggernaut; people had invested so much into it; that jumping onto a new system would be dumb, but if you did invest in a new game, so few hit the market that you could afford to collect and support several games. The Tabletop gaming industry now has the same problem as the video game one; Too many choices, too much new product. New things can be hyper-popular, but there is so much other and new product, that nothing can last to become a franchise anymore.
“Kick Starter and the internet makes this worse. OK you buy a new hot game, 6 months on when you would be expanding, that new hot game is on kickstater with all those shiny new models, and a new ruleset to try, so you buy into that and play that one, and just about as you are about to expand that game; then what do you know that the new; new hot game is on Kickstarter, so you buy into that one and so it goes.”
In a nutshell, this is why board games are the future, and why more and more minis games will be packaged as board games.
yes and yes to the above
Hopefully so, as any gaming is good. But I do not think we are ever going to see a new franchise become the new 40k in 30 years time, nor do I think we are gonna ever see another Cluedo( Clue to any Americans), or Monopoly on the board game front. I am sure some will still exist on trickle sells or in some altered form from new companies relaunches ( Mutant Chronicles and Paranoia being examples). I also think like 40k we will never see another D&D. This is another game that caught lightning in a bottle and became a zeitgeist. I think going on table top gaming will reflect Video gaming. Triple A titles will come out, some will become franchises that will be huge for years, then pretty much forgotten in 10 years by all but retro gamers.
@warzan for games i would like to recommend the new 2 player version of caverna cave vs cave
http://www.mayfairgames.com/products/caverna-cave-vs-cave
And a book that I am really enjoying right now Ready Player 1 by Ernest Cline.
talking about current games that’ll have longevity – i think that the new Weta Workshop game – Giant Killer Robots could be the one..
It bridges that aspect of mixing innovative tech with tabletop wargaming/boardgaming. it has beautiful collectible models. and weta also have that worldwide market penetration.. which will tick that box of being able to find other people in yyour area who have the game and being able to actually play it!
obviously
obviously we’ll have to see how it pans out – but I think it’s the first thing which mixes tech, has a mass appeal beyond just the wargaming community, and has a big company behind it who have a strong ethos about creating good content balanced alongside the necessity to be financially viable.
AND for the future- rather than simply using new tech platforms to use the augmented reality aspect – the gaming models will become powered and capable of motion.. the tech and the aesthetic will be able to grow with the audience.
Warren, a game that is a lot of fun, it’s cooperative and it has minis, Zombicide Black Plague. I love this game and I think the kids would even love playing this one.
Aside from being first to market I think what helped 40K, Magic and D&D to stick around for so long is that all of them invited the player/consumer to add their own imagination to those game spaces. Being able to assemble your own forces either with miniatures, a deck of cards, or a stat sheet and develop your own stories around those forces is a great draw to keep the game fresh even if the developer wouldn’t update the games as much as all of them did.
I think Infinity could greatly benefit from an AR component. Already you see a lot of people drawing little maps and taking pictures with their mobile phones to denote where their camo and other surprises are being placed.
Still it’s easy to get into arguments about proper line of sight, cover, event sequence etc.
A tool that helps you with exact measurements and keeps you straight on the rules would be helpful.
On the other hand I doubt if Infinity will be the next 30 year game. While it’s fairly innovative with its mechanics and quite popular at the moment it’s still just another tabletop wargame. It doesn’t stand out that much from everything else around.
I’m not sure a new 30 year game will even be possible in this day. Due to social media, Kickstarter and the growth of the industry there currently is kind of a ‘snack culture’ in gaming. Everyone’s running after whatever’s new, takes a bite and then goes on to the next shiny thing.
That might explain why those games appealed to begin with, but it doesn’t explain why they remain the most successful examples of their type over a long period of time as there are many other games which offer that, many of them regarded as being as good if not better, but which haven’t usurped them.
Own Buck Rogers and can confirm it’s a great game. The central wheel thing on the map is the solar system which all the planets and \\asteriods have counters on, and move each turn so you had to plan when to attack another planet as ships might not reach them in one move.
Use to run it as a campaign game at the old club I attended in Bristol in the late 1980’s (1989>0),
And Battletech in it’s many and varied forms has been going for a good 30+ years, though it’s background is now probably more confusing than 40K – as it got split into about 7 different ‘era’ so that people could focus on it (rather like WWII Early/Mid/Late War), as player have favoured sections of the background (mine being the War of 3039 up to the End of Operation Revival (Clan Invasion) in 3053).
if a company of the likes of raging heroes or prodos (referring to figure quality )or privateer press in terms of profile did 28mm halo I believe that would be huge and would stand the test of time .it already has a huge background due to its video games add to the mix a quality model manufacturer with a fresh modern ruleset and I think they could be onto a winner here has there is in this golden age of gaming an opportunity for someone with some financial backing to offer a viable alternative to gw has an entry point into the hobby and the halo ip could be the answer ..now I have nothing against gw has they provide a very important role within the hobby just be great to see another high profile ip on offer to new people getting into the hobby
I assume you think the reason the Halo game hasn’t made much of a splash is because it’s by Spartan rather than the other companies you mention?
@redben in part but more the scale than anything else I own Spartans halo game and highly recommend to anyone reading this .but its 15mm and therefore a niche within a niche 28-32mm is were its at in regards to mainstream .they actually showed what I believe was a one off 3up in there bow promo weekender before release and it look sweet .now put that in the hands of a top notch 28/32mm manufacturer with the financial backing for marketing/advertising and I think they would a huge hit on there hands relative to are hobby size .now of course finding someone that meets that criteria is no easy task but the question was what could be the next 30 year game and I cant think of a ip with the background and potential fan base to challenge 40k 3 decades of dominance
I’m not sure it because it’s Spartan, although their ability to market doesn’t quite compare to say the likes GW or FFG. I think the scale is definitely an issue not because there’s anything wrong with 15mm but because I think if you want to try and catch peoples’ eye with the mode and maybe attract new players, especially from the videogame audience, you want the iconic elements of your game to be very easily recognisable; for Halo that means Spartans and a 28mm Spartan is much easier to identify than a 15mm Spartan. Sure, 15mm allows you to make some of the massive vehicles but let’s be honest, they play a fairly minor part in the videogames. Spartans and Warthogs are where it’s at, both eminently doable at 28mm.
Thanks again for the Golden Button.
The site has helped me to push myself to paint more and to push myself to be more ambitious (not sure that 2 years ago I would have considered doing freehand shield designs let alone sharing and enjoying them.)
Longevity of games?
I wonder whether being able to enjoy a game at different ages helps. Actually it might be more a game that has multiple ways to play, with facets to the game that attract you at different ages.
Some board games are family oriented like monopoly and all age ranges and levels of competitiveness seem to find a way to enjoy the game.
40k attracts teenagers that enjoy Sci fi that want to play in a world that goes beyond the playing out a Sci fi movie on the tabletop. But there’s also a group of collectors, modellers, terrain builders, miniature painters, mass battle game players that cross paths with the game at various parts of their life.
Creating a niche for yourself does seem to be a factor but like @avernos said, the game has to work. Being innovative doesn’t guarantee success without a solid foundation of rules that generate fun experiences.
Sigh @warzan
Another prediction for hybridization gaming? 3 times failure so far and not by small business or clueless companies. I predict the apps from FFG will fail as did all the previous iterations despite massive backing from known boardgame reviewers for the same reason everything else has previously failed, the players will realize it is just an app and they do not need the physical components to play the game, so why have the physical components in the first place.
Digital integration will happen at some point when the virtual interface will become commonplace, but it will never take over the physical aspect of the game, it will be an accessory like we have now the laser pointers, not a crucial game component.
I am wondering sometimes if you bring the subject and honestly go at it without any research, just go with guts feelings, not a bad approach just curious.
Now les go on the main meat, personally I am not happy the “digital game companies” big CEO with their large baggage for failure and destroyed development studios come across to the boardgaming industry and it will create a turmoil especially since they try to handle the physical games industry as if it was a digital games industry, two different worlds with two different set of rules in the hands of people who have not shown to be quite as competent as their place should be, first thing they did was to create the minimum msrp and digital or physical stores dichotomy controversy, ignoring that most of the retail industry has moved for a really good reason to the hybrid sales model for very good reasons a decade now.
Moving on games longevity, there are two reasons why a game has longevity and it is common to both worlds of game creation digital and physical, the game is either easy, engaging or the IP is so good that it engages people, puzzle games like candy crush, Sudoku, Dixit ectr have an easy concept to grasp, really easy mechanisms to explain and their popularity, longevity and plethora of clones comes from this, a simple elegant design that can be engaging just by adding more complimentary elements to it, or simply more of the same, engaging games are sports games, chess and magic and well as poker gives the framework to dominate another player by skill an elegant way to duel and on modern games the slight imbalance makes them even better because every competitive player seeks that slight edge over their opponent, finally it’s the IP, if you manage to make the player think of your game when they do not play the game, you are set, this can be done in many ways, like having extremely difficult to complete games needing careful coordination, or, make a world that is so intriguing the players invest in it.
IP is the most difficult, but also the most crucial way to solidify your games legacy through the decades, if your game inspires to have fans theorize about the aspects of the world, make fan art, fun fiction, cosplay and even porn set in the fictional world you created, you know you have the setting that will endure forever (if you do not mess it up irrecoverably, for example the command and conquer franchise), IP is also what interest us from a board games/ wargames perspective, 40k is not a 30 years old game, it is not even a few months old game, it is a 30 years old IP that has evolved to keep the players engaged, the game plays and feels completely different from Rogue Trader that debuted it, yet the core of the IP is still the same and the strong IP it created back then is what caries it forward and will carry it forward, sure the models are not the best out there, but are good enough, the rules were never the most balanced or the best written, but are good enough, the setting was and will always be controversial and misunderstood, but it has sold novels to non-gamers, created award winning digital games and a passionate community about the lore than never rolled a dice and maybe never will.
This is what 40k is and this is why 40k will be, a parallel if you like to why Fantasy died, same models, same rules, a forgettable IP, for all its controversy and mishandling, age of sigmar gave WHFB what it lacked a unique IP, AoS is not the blunt generic fantasy IP were its most original moment were the scaven and how undead were created (just their creation, everything else about them was generic) but a vibrant post-apocalyptic world with unique elements, is it enough to save it? I really do not know, but hey the new IP gives the world a far better chance than the old IP.
The same can be traced on many games that survived a decade or more, sure been the first, like 40K been the first and for quite some time the only real sci fi IP on the market (yes, Laserburn I know you were out before that but you were really just a rules set), helps a lot and been uncontested for over a decade helps even more so, as is gaining that critical mass of players, but even then, when GW did their best for almost a decade to kill themselves, 40k survived and carried them through seer strength of IP alone and I am honest here to say that if GW had two games with the IP caliber of Warhammer Fantasy and not Warhammer 40k, we would not have GW at this point.
This is the reason you see even Magic, who frankly does not need IP to carry it, heavily invest on a coherent IP since Fallen Empires and expanding it ever since, one of the weakest sets ever created sold simply because people wanted to read the story the little 1-3 line non crucial text on many cards of that set told.
Of course games can have many aspects on them and survive for a long time, or be a pure form of just one like chess, backgammon and poker, but as I said above I believe for the complex boardgames and wargames the IP is the most crucial factor in their longevity (outside the company that created it going nuts and shooting them in the foot).
Now concluding to clarify, IP for me is everything but the rules, the art, the story and the sculpts (who are a physical representation of the images) is what the IP is, the rules are non-copyrightable and non-crucial in my opinion, yes, having a good rule set that transfers the IP on the game table is a big bonus and in the present highly competitive environment not having a good ruleset is almost a death wish, but still it needs to be good enough and not the best out there if your IP is strong.
Hybridisation hasn’t been attempted yet in tabletop because of hardware interfacing… we don’t have a software issue at all it’s all ready to go, we just don’t have any feasible means of triangulating and pulling in the real world data to feed it.
There are 2 options that spring to mind
1) some form of RFID setup that gives the locations of every gaming piece in relation to the others the difficulty here is triangulation (RFID has no processing power in its own right or ability to geo locate at the micro levels so will require 3 or more other sensors around the play area to make this work… All of this adds cost
2) more likely is the combination of machine learning and ultra hi resolution cameras that can identify the game pieces and the board… This in my opinion will be the solution but it is still a little ways off.
In a nutshell you will find that I am totally correct 😉 hybridisation is going to happen.
Sorry to say nothing in this weekender really sparked any interest. I was hoping for more focus on hobby techniques, new games, demos. Still,hope you all have a great Sunday.
My daugnter is 6 yo, but we play with friends from 4-8yo, and here are some of their favorites.
Santorini – just get it! 2 player game that you can do as teams or competition, since games are short.
Fugitive – another 2 player that may be a challenge for Manny depending on his age, but you can do as teams as well. Has to do with numbers and guessing where the fugitive is for the marshall. Requires some floor space, but not a lot.
Super Rhino, solid surface needed ,but minimal space and works for all
And prolly alot more, but I think the question is what do the kids like.
Mysterium is great since its all pictures and while an adult game, has worked well with all. Plus you can scare the bejeezus out of them or not.
And another we love now is Word Domination. My daughter can play now that she reads, although with some help sometimes…but she likes it as well.
Beyond that others may take more room than you have, but lots to choose from stilk. If you can get it, the Harry Potter Lego boardgame is GREAT as well, but hard to get.
Super Rhino is amazing. So much fun for such a simple game @quixol
I want Justin’s shirt…. Where did he get a Skavenblight shirt?
GW/Forge World do them. You can probably still buy them from Warhammer World
*sigh* The poor stewardship of the property makes such that it is not even mentioned. However, Battletech has the lore and can have the battles that can match Warhammer and is just as old. Ever since FASA sold the property is has been poorly managed and is now in the quagmire of IP ownership.
I believe one of the reasons for longevity of GW WH40K is the consistency of ownership and vision of how the system should evolve. That, and listening to the user base and actually changing.
Battletech could be a true rival to 40K but for the poor stewardship of the property. The current owners will not allow it to evolve like they have with 40K and much of the base has dug in its heals that nothing should be allowed to change.
Hope you and the family have a great vacation Warzan!! See you in a couple weeks.
Warren answered his own question I think with regards to the longevity. ground breaking with depth.
the current wave of games is still mid evolution. the new breed of games are smashing together everything table top has to offer in the search of the perfect recipe. this will slow down as mechanics, despite currently being mid revolution, are limited in the pace and extent of their possible evolution. honestly though the only thing that truly separates board games now from miniature wargames is the movement mechanic and in this board games are far superior. they’re cleaner and with more tactical depth which will ultimately consign classic wargames to history. miniatures like wise are at an apex point now too, any better and they’re unpaintable and the detail unseeable. the only thing left is for pre assembled and prepaints to reach that level.
the next big thing, and IP, will be about well crafted immersive long running narratives. it will be the quality of the story telling that sets them apart.
of the current crop kingdom death could last a good while earning big bucks.
FFG and STAR WARS would be the safe bet.
I would love to agree with Ben over infinity lasting 30 years, but this one is a tough call.
infinity represents the pinnacle of traditional wargaming for me. it’s a simulator with out compare. it’s mechanics allow for an almost RPG range of options that was unlike anything else on the market. it’s art and miniatures are gorgeous. it’s setting was every bit as good as the rest in a genre that was fresh and new. the style and quality of the writing thanks to Gutier along with everything else about the game stood in stark contrast to a stagnating 40K.
unlike the true giants you mentioned though infinity was a slow burner, 2011 before the miniatures were in line with the industry and a couple of years after that before they started knocking it out of the park with CAD. 2012/13 and the introduction of scenarios before the rules really became top tier. this all happened around the same time as FFG and the STAR WARS reboot happened and along with dropzone/fleet commander stepping into the specialist games void left by GW set the scene for kickstarter to lay siege to this scifi landscape along with GWs slow and inevitable reaction. in the last 5 years though kickstarter hasn’t dinted the scifi wargaming scene, but for how long. with narrative driven board games with competitive options like imperial assault and mythic battles showing how good boardgames are at doing wargames. that’s before joan of arc changes the landscape yet again. I think the advantage will be with a game that is built from the ground up but that then develops into wargames.
if something narrative driven from the new school crossover matching the quality of miniatures appears on kickstarter before CB can add linked narrative scenarios then it may well be the sign that the old school is over. like I said above I think board games hold the advantage when it comes to movement and it’s a question of when not if. they will have one last opportunity to redesign the game as a boardgame at this point to keep their IP alive.
i’m so heavily invested in infinity part of me will be gutted. but part of me can’t wait to see the game that changes everything. it maybe another decade away at the minute but it may just be round the corner.
sorry, still love you guys. just moved and taken on a little more work, so I just can’t get on BOW as much as I was doing..
The problem with FFG and the Star Wars IP is that they are at the Mercy of Disney. If licensing fees go uo the cost of making the games may become prohibitive and it may stop. If Disney decide to put the Star Wars IP on hold that damages the IP and products associated with it. Star Wars is a strong IP and it’s not showing signs of failing, but there’s no guarantee that 30 years from now it will be as active (see Star Trek’s fortune of late – you’re only one bad film or show away from disaster).
Also, although I do like X-wing I don’t feel invested in them like I do with miniatures games like 40k or Infinity. I think it feels more disposable, like if they stopped making it tomorrow I have enough to keep playing it without it getting old. The only thing I would be missing is buying new ships. With Infinity and 40k I invest in those games, i spend time building and painting them, new models means more building and painting; new releases means more than just a new soldier in my army, it means more building and painting. I think X-wing might have more of a chance at longevity if it wasn’t a prepaint, even though prepainted models is probably part of the reason for its success
Happy sunday folks!
Longevity of games is an interesting one as a similar question popped up on the Dropzone Commander FB group earlier this week – is DzC a dying game?
It boiled down to one main reason – The number of people selling up entire armies as they’re giving up the game > They’re giving up the game because there is no interest in their community > There’s no interest as no-one is picking it up as they don’t see any support for the game. Hawk have been so tied up with Dropfleet that there have been no new releases for DzC in a long while and the game has begun to stagnate from an external perspective. I picked up the starter set back in January but haven’t managed to get any local guys to pick it up as they see the same – no “support” from Hawk in terms of new releases.
Now compare that to 40k – a new raft of releases every month, for as far back as I can remember (and I started in 1993). That’s the reason for the longevity, continual “in your face” support (to it’s detriment at times) from GW. As long as you keep your customers engaged with your creation/IP they will keep buying it.
As for 8th Ed, I think the rebooted ruleset is a bigger draw for players as opposed to Primaris marines (I’m a life-long marine player and I won’t be picking any up).
Dropzone Commander is an interesting case to bring to this discussion. The guys on the show were talking about games that are better than 40k and I feel DzC is definitely one of them. It has great rules and system, good game balance for competitive play and very beautiful and extensive model range. DzC has also enough mass-battle feel to keep it commercially successful, there’s always something to add or tweak in your army. The background is of course no where near as deep as 40k, but has gotten better with every reconquest book releases.
But you said it, lack of support is preventing the game from growing and can in the end kill it. In today’s world, a year without proper new releases is quite catastrophic when your competitors bombarding the customer base with new stuff weekly. Especially when we’re talking about a ‘gamers game’ like DzC, where the player base without exceptions play other games as well.
Kinda obvious, but games where the business model requires the same core customer base to keep up with regular purchases require regular support. 40k has always been superbly supported, regular codex releases, White Dwarf, etc. Same with MtG. Same with FFG. Support is where the fate of smaller companies is decided: Corvus Belli are doing it right with Infinity and so are Warlord Games. Vesper-on and Carnevale died to the lack of support – which was sacrificed to produce new games. Same will happen to Hawk Wargames if they continue like this.
On Longjevity – What about Batteltech? A game from 1984 that is still being played, in many forms, today. If someone from then saw todays tabletop rules they would recognize the game and be able to play. What gives Batteltech its longevity is, again, the story. The BT universe was well written, expansive and open-ended. You could make your own space within the story, add to another space, build on the story created by the game designers with little effort. The universe also allows for expansion into other game space as well (One thing Magic has not been able to do). BT, D&D, and Warhamer all have moved into other game space, board games, card games, Computer games, RPG which expands your player base to new kinds of players and new generations.
On Computer hames – You will never have a thirty year game that includes any kind of electronics. period. End of of Story. We are in the industrial age of electrons. We are taking for granted right now, technologies that did not exist just 5 years ago. We can not even try to predict what will be ‘standard’ in 10 years so no one game that includes electronics will be supported for more than 5-7 years. Yes, World of Warcraft is approaching 15 years bit the original game is long gone. The IP can survive and be reused over and over, Sonic and Mario are proof of that, but no single game in an electronic format will ever be able to do what D&D, BT, Warhammer, and Magic have done.
Isn’t Warmachine about 14 years old. So half way there and still going strong.
When is Ben going to move over to Ireland and be a more constant contributor. Ben should be doing the board game section because he is the real source of board game knowledge in BOW with regards to board games. The new guy although you seem a very nice guy you clearly don’t know enough about hobby board games
I couldn’t disagree more. I love a bit of Az on a Sunday morning. 🙂
If we want Ben to emigrate I think we’ll need more than a group of backstage “centurions”, we’d need a wealthy “cohort” to make that kind of decision worth considering.
More Ben is always something we call for because he is a really nice guy with a wealth of eclectic gaming knowledge, but the team deal with all the cool topics and avenues that the hobby takes us down as a team and I wouldn’t change that.
Az clearly has some experience with and knowledge of RPG and board games and Ben now has an ally in bringing those to the forefront more often. I especially liked the Ghostel and Escape the Castle videos recently featuring Az and think we should allow Az his place at the table.
It’s also waaayy to early for you to clearly know what Az clearly knows 🙂
He was brought on for his expertise and given the time to communicate it, you will see that 🙂
He’s also seems like a really nice guy, really positive and keen to get involved in other aspects of gaming that he doesn’t currently engage with. I’ve enjoyed seeing him on the show and was a little disappointed that he didn’t join the Hobby Night Live.
We’re looking to get him onto Hobby Night Live in the future 🙂
Az knows board games
@lukeprior1 – Az is one hell of a board game fanatic and is decidedly up on his tabletop games, trust me.
He also reads and digests game rules almost quicker than Justin with miniature game rules AND he then teaches them well too.
Keep an eye out for more from Az as he really is putting in the time to bring board games to the fore on BoW and I can’t wait to see what he does in the future.
Already so many plans in the works and if you’ve missed it, go and check out some of the board game stuff already, including Escape The Dark Castle which he helmed really well!
I thinks that lots of things help, and a rules system that works, an IP which is attractive in isolation from the game, and good miniatures are all in that camp.
But the real essentials for achieving longevity have to be timing, branding and market position.
40K for instance. At the time, there weren’t a sea of start up games competing with it, so it was able to establish itself as the dominant sci-fi war game. Once it had that market position, is is always going to be tough for competitors to knock you off the top spot. And because of its market presence, when people think war games, they think games workshop. The brand means that for generation after generation of new gamers, 40K will probably be the starting point.
40K certainly isn’t the best among its competitors if you’re talking about the game itself. The background is rich and there is certainly lots of it, but I don’t think many people would say it’s the “best” sci-fi IP out there. And lots of people would say that games workshop don’t make the best sci-fi miniatures either. Harder to challenge if you limit that to the best multi-part plastic sci-fi miniatures.
But what it does definitely have is brand awareness and market position, established at a time before the market was saturated.
I think Infinity has the possibility of being the next one. With the RPG game coming it adds that extra bit of making your own story with the game system.
I think the problem with Az and it’s the same with Justin when he tries to be serious about something is that they don’t speak up and are hard to hear
I can’t really predict what the next “30 year game” will be – although if pushed I would suggest it’s likely to be Warmachines/Hordes which is already 14 years old and is now one of the most popular table top wargames in the world. It has a big enough following that I can’t see it going anywhere any time soon. Ultimately a game will last as long as people are interested in it; so you need to create a fun setting, a good set of rules and keep people wanting new game components (whether it’s collectable cards or miniatures). Breaking into the current market won’t be easy however with the likes of 40K, X-Wing and Warmahordes (and yes, I think Rune Wars is going to struggle); you really need to be offering something that people can’t get from the existing, established games, whether that’s better miniatures, a better setting or better rules. A good way to generate interest in a game, and to give it a better shot at longevity, is to tie it to an established IP; Hollywood and Videogames are both very good starting points for this. FFG have played a blinder by getting Star Wars licenses; it was a massively strong IP, Disney are investing massively in it and they can ride that wave of success for a very long time. Conversely it feels very much like WizKids have run out of steam with their Star Trek license; the new films, while popular, have not reinvigorated the IP to the levels that it used to demonstrate in the 90’s (when we probably reached peak “trek”). Will the new TV show manage to do that? Who knows.
That said I don’t necessarily think that technology will extend the longevity of any wargame, if anything it will probably just be a gimmick, much like Skylanders. We can already play digitised wargames in the form of games like Total War; they’re fully digitised and can be played online, what advantages would the hybrid of digital technology and tabletop wargames offer over current tabletop and digital wargames? I think if we ask ourselves why do people still play tabletop wargames rather than scratching their strategic itch via the medium of computers then we will start to see why merging technology simply isn’t necessary, certainly not where miniatures are concerned. There’s three things that keep me playing wargames rather than simply abandoning it entirely in favour of games like Total War. I don’t want to have to start strapping on bits of special head gear or glasses or buying special projectors or gaming boards in order to play a game. If I did I would play Total War and forego the hassle of buying miniatures.
1) I like the tactile aspect of it. Sure, Total War is fully animated and you can watch your armies murdering each other in glorious 3D. But I can pick up a miniature and hold it – it’s a real, tangible thing and there’s something special about that.
2) The lack of technology. I think that as great as video games look, sometimes they can feel a little cold and soulless. In a world that is increasingly driven by and dependent on electronics and computer technology, it’s actually nice to enjoy something else, to detach yourself a little from smartphones and computers. Even if you use digital rule books, the primary focus of the game is the board or the table and the pieces on it.
3) The creative aspect. Why do model railway enthusiasts do it? Why not just download Railroad Tycoon and do away with the modelling? Because modelling is itself a rewarding hobby and provides as much pleasure as the finished product. I play wargames for a very similar reason. I love creating the tiny armies and worlds for them to do battle in. I love looking at well built tables with painted armies doing battle. I love seeing the stories unfold in those worlds. The rules and the result of the game are almost irrelevant to me. Once the table is set and the armies laid out there a huge reward in just seeing the game happen. I don’t really want to replace any of that with technology.
To expand on @torros comment earlier, i feel longevity for the 3 key games is access to product. Games workshop stores are frequent enough that if you are explaining the hobby to an outsider I often say do you know th store on xxx street, that. I remember when 2nd addition was everywhere, Argos, virgin megastores, local department stores before gw had the number of shops so you still were getting product in front of people who mite be interested in it. New gw stores also had 3 for 2 offers so punters would go and creat hype for them. To now look at @warzan‘s comment about gw not being brace enough, I think they cater to the followers they built up in that time as if they are still playing they will keep buying the books etc to continue to play. It when they drop off you’ll see the warhammer fantasy style change as you know longer have to worry about your core buyers
Thanks for a great show guys, loving the team dynamic you 4 have going on, most enjoyable to watch.
@warzan wishing you all a happy holiday and please bring back games reviews and pictures! I would strongly recommend the Ark Royal series, by Christopher G Nuttall, great books about space naval warfare with end of the world action, space combat tactics and mass drivers in abundance. Happy hols!
Blooming spell check – it was of course brave enough, not brace.
While I’m here I must say I have loved the lost series ever since I picked up book 1 as part of some deal in Waterstones some years back. Series 2 was great, as is the 3rd series focusing on some of the better baddies (trying to avoid spoilers). I recently picked up the start of his forth series in this universe but very early prequel and fell in love there as well. It’s an amazing set of books and I like the real world physics style of combat he uses rather than the star wars/trek cinematic zipping about like a loon style.
The same author under a different name also wrote the “Stark” series, war, crusade and I think command but can’t be arsed to walk upstairs to confirm it! Again, I can see a future where it isn’t that far fetched, although possibly with a different “hero” nation.
a great show guys tec will change games considerably in the future so anything may be possible soon.
When you talk about what all 3 of those games (D&D, Magic and 40k $ have in common ironically what they have in common is already in that list and that is D&D. GamesWorkshop stated its life producing miniatures, adventures and magazines (white dwarf) to support D&D in Europe, so much so that the Fiend Folio from 1st edition D&D is made up entirely of monsters that came from White Dwarf, warhammer fantasy and 40k developed out of roleplaying and specifically D&D. Magic’s creator had D&D collectible cards which had pictures of famous Characters and monsters on them, and went about making a game using these cards originally …none of these games exist or have the longevity that they do without the work of Gygax and TSR the entire industry as it exists today would be nonexistent without them.
GenCon 1 took place in a basement in Lake Geneva Wisconsin (gygax basement to be specific) and dungeons and dragons grew out of the worlds first fantasy war game ChainMail written by that same man. I don’t think enough credit is ever really given to where all of this began and what we owe to a small group of people is a small town in Midwest USA. Look what it has all grown into today, from a set of zeroxed rules and a small game store in a tourist town
GenCon 1 was in a convention centre in Lake Geneva. The year before, Gygax had hosted an informal gathering in his basement which retrospectively became GenCon 0 once the convention was up and running. Chainmail was the first commercially available wargame with fantasy rules, but there were others that weren’t commercially available before that 🙂
Point taken…but small inaccuracies or not I believe the point is still valid
Happy sunday guys!
I’v never seen the TSR Buck Rogers game and i was 18 at the time! But i do remember the red box 😉
so much chat about 40k… yawn
I think there’s one thing that I would like to point out about Monopoly because it has a bit if an unfair reputation – probably undeservedly. Look at the Crackd article about 10 boardgames that ruined it for the rest of them (it’s actually quite a funny article to be honest and worth checking out). The problem with monopoly is that most people play it wrong and they do so because they probably never read the rules – I know I didn’t until very recently. Most people are taught to play Monopoly by their parents and it’s not a hugely complicated game. But many parents also omit one key rule, presumably to try and prevent fallings out or kids getting a bit mardy because mum and dad keep winning. When you land on a space you can buy the property, we all know that. But if you don’t buy it it is supposed to be opened to auction to all players (including the person who landed on the square). This means that the time taken for property to be bought up and hotels and houses being built is much lower making games much shorter. How many people play that way? I mean I haven’t played for years and I know that growing up that’s not the way it was played in our house. I know that’s also the case for most of my friends. It’s a simple rule but so important and it totally changes the game if you remove it, it makes it slower and far less competitive and cut throat.
As a child I always played it that way, but I’ve played the auction rule as well. It still takes a long time, is very random, offers very little gameplay, and is broken. If you don’t know how it’s broken I won’t tell you on the off chance we ever meet across a Monopoly board lol
Shw mae! @warzan croeso y cymru!
Have a great vacation @warzan
Great XLBS. Really interesring discussions 🙂
Hope you have a good holiday @warzan , and its nice to know your a Lost Fleet fan, funnily enough we were pulling Daves of Hawks leg at Games Expo in that he should ask for commission of Jack Campbell for all the sales hes done of the back of people playing Dropfleet.
Additions to 30 year games still going
Battletech , recently had update with Alpha Strike,
and still about but harder to get outside the States, Star Fleet Battles and its later Simpler version .’Federation Commander’.
@warzan Totally agree about playing co-operative games with family, especially with your other half. “We’re a team and we face this s**t together” is a great way to approach life AND board games! For that reason, I would have to recommend the new(ish) Arkham Horror LCG. Being an FFG game there is of course an aggressive release schedule filled with mini-expansions but I think there is plenty of replayability in the core box alone and there is enough content within for your characters to level up and ‘persist’ across the three missions in the core game. With a playing time of 90 minutes or so, that’s three evenings sorted right there.. and who knows? If you both like that style of game, perhaps you will finally do something with those Pathfinder ACG games on your studio shelves 😉
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WA16gyRZyY&t=35s
As for a game you can play with your kids, Forbidden Island is a good (and inexpensive) choice with very nice, robust components, simple rules and a relatively short play time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxG_ahmF1uM
@warzan have a great holiday, I’m sure this one is on you list but Zombies Keep Out from privateer press (I have vague memories of you and Justin talking about this before a previous trip) nice an coop and you get to sound like a Zombie. What’s not to like!
I think the smart thing about 40K, is it is a bit of a cross fertilization game, because those interested in wargaming fantasy, orcs, elves and stories of mighty empires can be attracted to it as well as those pulled in by the immersive sci-fi background.
It has a tag of an existing fantasy stereotype and puts a big fn gun into there hands and allows them to run around going dakka dakka. We talk about competitors and yes for fun there are plenty of competition in the 28mm scale but over the last 30 years how many systems have had orcs etc and you can put a big fn gun in there hands to run around…etc
Even the comparable challengers have been Starship troopers, humans v bugs, Warzone Humans v Humans v Chaos. But how many with all in the mix.
So 40k isn’t a good guys, bad guys setup, its multiple factions allowing that individual customization of I have X army and I’m going to build an army list, then ebay, model, paint, green stuff those guys to my hearts content. But its an army with a decades long history of sterotypes about what an Orc, Elf, Undead, Human Empire defending its borders, that can fire the imagination of a gamer.
As I listened to your conversation about game longevity I found myself agreeing with many of the points being made but these were the driving factors for what the gaming market was. Are they going to be the driving factors for what gaming is evolving into?
I spent 5 hours last Sunday playing board games with 4 friends.Two of the three different games we played Dice Forge(amazing game by the way) and Not Alone. Both games were designed with tremendous replay-ability in mind and will be very easy to expand upon in the future to extend the life of the games. There combined cost was less then that of a landraider.
Time to play. Replay-ability, cost to play, broad appeal to a large market this is the gaming market of the 21 century. Your can’t afford for your six year old to play 40k even if they wanted to. And what is the rest of the family going to do for two to three hours.
Will games like 40k be around for years to come, maybe. But how long be for someone makes a Sci Fi version of Rune Wars? I don’t see a game with a $2000.00 (USA) entry cost being the next game with a 30 year life span of the future.
I don’t think there’ll be an equivalent of 40K again. I wouldn’t be surprised to see quite a few of today’s games still going strong after 30 years, but I don’t think any will come to dominate the market like GW has done.
40K had and has lots of things going for it, including an open universe that people can adapt and adopt what they like, the physical presence of hobby stores, a relatively well-known, interesting and popular IP and of course lots of great miniatures. But the main thing it had and has is critical mass.
GW could screw it up, and like @warzan I think they’ve been screwing it up for several years. But they’re big enough to be able to turn things around. I think the current surge in enthusiasm for 40K is not about new rules or new marines, but about GW reengaging with the customer base. Everything else flows from that.
One game I predict longevity for is Pandemic. And not just because I love it! It’s a simple game, one of the first ‘modern board games’ that’s cooperative and so has that first mover advantage, it has an amazing theme that appeals to all sorts of people and it can be revamped and reskinned every few years if necessary but the main game will remain really exciting.
OK here I am Friday morning and finally found time to watch… Coop game that is fun : Wildcraft herbal board game. https://learningherbs.com/wildcraft/ We have had a ball playing this game and everyone ever wins or you run out of time all together. plus you get to learn about herbs at the same time..